Why isn't there more focus on doubles?

[DoH]

I feel like doubles often gets the short end of the stick when it comes to tournaments. Not only does it usually have less entrants (since it takes 2 to tango) but the entry fee is less than singles and is then split by the winning teams. Pot bonuses almost never go to teams. Do people just not care about doubles? I rarely see it being played at practices/friendlies outside of NY or NorCal.

Additionally there's a lack of hype around teams, even though one of the reasons Melee went through its resurgence was due to the Wombo Combo. People rarely put in time to have good teamwork and mostly split it into two 1 v 1s, especially if it's just two random good people playing. Doubles is a lot more fun and entertaining for me since it doesn't devolve into the "dashdance camp until you get a hit > death combo" that so much of high level Melee has devolved into.

Also whatever happened to creative team names? The Newlyweds, Rush Hour, El Chocolate Diablo have fallen way to like...portmanteaus of the player's names.

What would make you more interested in doubles? Pro/Am doubles tournaments? Consistent partners?

 

[TreK]

brawl doubles at apex were insanely hype, though.

I guess it depends on the mood of the day.

 

[Player -0]

Personally I like Dubz a bit more than singles because you can make more things happen if you're good at working with a partner rather than just being good yourself. The reason it might be less popular is because Singles is more "skill" so to speak as there aren't as many people so you can see who's better individually because in Dubz you can just be really good at teamwork and get pretty far. Idk though, those are my speculations.

 

[DoH]

brawl doubles at apex were insanely hype, though.

I guess it depends on the mood of the day.

I don't follow Brawl at all so that's why i made the topic about Melee

 

[Djent]

Doubles is already more interesting to me than singles for pretty much all the Smash games. Smash was balanced for a FFA setting, and doubles somewhat preserves that without the stupid **** that happens in FFAs. Characters that get mauled in 1v1s can actually shine (shoutouts to Plup's Samus) because of character synergy and player chemistry. There's sort of a "teambuilding" aspect that's similar to Marvel or Skullgirls, but it's augmented by the cooperation required to actually realize the team strategy. You *can* just go double Fox and do well, but there are so many more viable options that I just can't tell why nobody cares.

I like the idea of more dedicated teams. I think that ties into the idea of developing player chemistry, rather than just slapping two great players together and hoping they know how to cooperate (see: M2K/Darc). Dedicated teams also opens up the possibility of serious doubles practice *outside of* tournaments, which is another thing I think people tend to overlook. Many of the best teams in the country have historically been those who practice together often (Mango/Lucky, PP/NC guy, Hax/Jman, Plup/HBox, Alukard/DJN, Husband/Wife, Chu/anyone MDVA - I could go on forever).

I also think talking about doubles matchups might help people get interested. If people find out their favorite character to play doesn't get mauled as hard when paired with certain other characters, that might motivate them to practice doubles more (even over singles). It'll also help people develop more counter-strategies, so counterpicking could potentially exist beyond "Hey, my X is getting wrecked right now, better try switching to Y." This game is really ****ing old and yet (to my knowledge) nobody has ever tried making a tier list for doubles. Maybe get the theory nerds on that instead of debating which characters need to move up/down 1 spot on a fairly-consistent singles ranking?

 

[DoH]

They've tried making a tier list for doubles, top 3 was Puff/Fox/Peach (in no particular order) with Sheik and Falcon just below IIRC.

 

[Armada]

Doubles>Singles

Here is, what I think, the biggest reasons why people overall prefer singles.

1: They don't have a consistent team partner
2: They are not having as much fun because of it
3: Singles already have the most focus so that's why people practice it more
4: Teams is way more complex and the ammount of people understanding teams compares to singles is VERY low.

Until you reach a very good understanding of teams I can understand why you prefer singles. I can promise you guys though that once you reach a super great understanding point of view for teams I think most of you would change opinion.

 

[DoH]

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Doubles is amazing.

We need a way for people (of all skill levels) to find a consistent teammate though. That's really the only thing holding it back imo

---

note: I don't enter teams ~80% of the time even though I prefer it for this reason and this reason alone.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I know I don't like to pay money for doubles because I don't like having only partial control of my outcome.
Maybe if I could clone myself....then my team would totally be one unit.

Reminds me of the Pacific Rim Jaeger piloting system.

 

[DoH]

Or maybe you could find a teammate that you practice consistently with and develop synergy and trust.

As I said in the fb group, if there were more circuit events we could incentivize people to stick with their partners for tournaments. Any other ideas on how to get people to have consistent teammates?

 

[Construct]

I love doubles


I wish I had more to say than that, but I really don't
I love doubles

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Anyone remember Pro-Am doubles? Those always turn out really well.

[You match the best players in the room with the worst. So in an 8 man tournament 1-8 would be together, 2-7, 3-6, and 4-5. Creates competitive matches, and everyone thinks they have a chance. The best players have a lot of fun cause they have to carry REALLY hard, and winning against even mid level teams is a challenge, and the worst players get to play with one of their idols.

Only issue is matching players up but there are a few good ways of making it fair. You could always run it after singles ofc]

 

[PB&J]

I love teams more than singles and I agree with what Armada said.

#freemeleeteams

 

[MountainGoat]

Doubles are awesome but I just like playing on my own more. I think doubles deserves more attention but singles is still by far the most exciting event for me.

 

[pewpewyou]

Doubles will naturally be the underdog of the two tournaments because it isn't about pride quite like it is for singles. I say this with a frown upon my face :< Teams deserves more

 

[Punzz]

yea alot of ppl dont wanna spend money when they dont get to do it consistently at all like i think friendlies are cool but if you dont have a consistent teammate its almost always pointless but ppl should deff enter more

 

[LLDL]

in response to the OP, you observe that doubles gets the short end of the stick. It is cut and dry to you that it should get more focus."Why do so many people not enter doubles?" you might ask.

To answer your question, in that same regard it's cut and dry for players who are like me, and don't care if the doubles event even existed at a tournament. Why do so many people even like doubles? Is the question I ask. It's a rhetorical question because I obviously know why people find doubles attractive. It's a different game that requires a different mindset and a different set of skills, which makes it so much more fun. I just don't find the joy in relying on someone else to clutch it out for me.

Actually at the events I host, I only offer singles.

and it just so happens that the people who dislike it outweigh the people who do, which is why it gets so many less entrants than singles

 

[R3N0]

We already know, NY loves teams :D

 

[Cactuar]

Teams is incredible. When you get a long term teammate, it is such great motivation to improve your own play and to take pride in your team as a single unit. You don't want your teammate to carry/be better than you so you start having a friendly rivalry and it pushes both of you to be better. It gives you another realm of strategy to discuss when theorycrafting smash.

Doubles has the potential to be this amazing event with so much benefit to players and the community as a whole, but the way it exists right now just doesn't really do that. There are so few really recognized teams, the way El Chocolate Diablo or The Newlyweds were recognized. Instead, high/top level players just scramble to team with each other at regional+ events, and M2K scrambling to grab the best player he can at local, sub 20 player events. ()



I'd love to see a rise in recognizable teams again and more respect for the event as a whole, but the trend has been towards making dreamteams for the sake of winning rather than embracing long term teams and playing to prove something.

M2K+Armada is by far the most beast team ever though.

 

[DoH]

Charlie we need to resurrect Frodo and Neo's Excellent Adventure

 

[SUNG666]

I can't say whether one is better than the other.
But I can come up with a lot of reasons why there isn't more focus on doubles from my perspective.

1. Skill level, players who suck (like me) are going to continue to suck for longer if we practice doubles. Relying on a teammate to rescue me if I screwed up my tech skill or if I mess up recovering won't help me as much. I've always thought if I had the choice between practicing doubles or singles I'd choose singles every time. Honestly, have two noobs playing a two pros and they would have much less chance to actually gain something out of it than one noob playing against one pro in singles.
2. What in the world is going on? If I can hardly keep up with what all the players are doing and the awesome small intricacies that happen in every exchange, then how would any of the audience know. I think it's less hype for this reason.
3. "Random" factors. I've been playing for some time and I STILL think doubles can be very random. This just gets me more frustrated and inhibits my growth. In singles matches I blame myself only but in doubles it's tempting to blame all of attacks that hit you on your partner or just some random lucky chain of events that happen to get you killed.

Honestly I don't know any noob who would consistently enter doubles to get better as a player. I'm sure if you asked them if they only had 10$ what they would choose to help them get better they would pay 5$ venue and 5$ singles. It's already hard enough as it is for some people to get 1v1 practice just imagine how much harder it is to get SOLID doubles practice in where you AND your consistent teammate meet at a smashfest with another GOOD opponent AND his teammate at the same time. AND you'd have to do this multiple times to really get good practice in. Think about how long you've grinded a match up with another person...hours and hours and hours every week. And you still probably don't really understand it (I know I don't). Now you'd have to do that with doubles that has more character combinations and you'd need to find opponents who are good at using that combination. Doubles is so complex that if people can't even play singles correctly they wouldn't even know where to begin.


Imo competitive doubles is great for good players, bad for terrible ones. I would increase doubles price to 10$ if singles were 10$ for every tournament. If you would lose entrants from the increased price then it's obvious they don't care about it as much. It's fun but do I don't expect to get anything else out of it at the moment.

 

[bubbaking]

It's probably already been mentioned, but I think ProAM brackets are a really good way to spread awareness about doubles and garner interest in it. I also enjoy doubles a lot more than singles and wish it had more of a centric place in our Smash competitive community.

 

[Arcadia157]

It's probably already been mentioned, but I think ProAM brackets are a really good way to spread awareness about doubles and garner interest in it. I also enjoy doubles a lot more than singles and wish it had more of a centric place in our Smash competitive community.

The problem with ProAm doubles (at least in MD/VA) is that the very top players who would be matched up with a newb don't care for it as much and would rather not participate. They all would rather **** everyone with their top tier partner and just take all the money. It's not necessarily a bad mentality to have, but it shows a somewhat lack of interest in helping the community grow as a whole.

With that said, I love dubz, especially at smashfests and practices.

 

[MrBigstuff]

I mostly follow Brawl, but this is basically the same. I really like watching doubles about as much as singles. Singles has that mano a mano pure test of skill thing, but crazy team combos and pairings (Ness/Projectile user, Zamus/G&W, Anubis) are so hype. A good team can be more entertaining than even the flashiest Fox, but devolving into two 1v1s and a lack of real teamwork really hamper doubles sometimes.

 

[Jayk]

I like doubles...
But I just find singles more engaging.
Maybe I'm just not on the level to really appreciate doubles.

 

[Dekar289]

LOL DoH nice try but nobody gives a **** about doubles
maybe spend less time making threads and more time working on making it out of singles pools

 

[DoH]

LOL DoH nice try but nobody gives a **** about doubles
maybe spend less time making threads and more time working on making it out of singles pools

The only time I haven't made it out of pools in the last like 4 years was Big House 2. Nice try though?

I'm kind of over singles, it gets really boring at top level because Mango aside, people just camp for hits > death combos.

Doubles is such uncharted territory; building a team around trust, synergy, and friendship is a really great feeling and could help keep the community more engaged.

I've played tennis all of my life and have always preferred doubles over singles. People complain that they don't like "someone else clutching it out for me" but what about someone covering your weaknesses as a player? Helping you do things you or your character could never do on their own? Does that not bring joy as well?

 

[michael_li]

cuz i hate doubles and the world revolves around me.

 

[Djent]

^ Umm, no. If anything, doubles offers something no other popular fighter can give. Not even SFxT's 2v2 is the same (or remotely as good).

 

[Player -0]

^ Umm, no. If anything, doubles offers something no other popular fighter can give. Not even SFxT's 2v2 is the same (or remotely as good).

Yeah, I never thought about how different the Smash Bros. Series doubles are compared to other popular fighting games. The Smash Series design and gameplay are MADE (<-- Very subjective) for four players at one time, but the flexibility of the game allows you to play the game however you want, such as 1v1's, FFA's of any number of players, and 2v2's (Dubz). How the game plays allows many more options for more than two players than a game such as Street Fighter.

 

[Problem2]

cuz i hate doubles and the world revolves around me.

seriously though doubles is a joke, it's one of the reasons the FGC laugh at our game

I've never heard this from a FG player before. Whoever told you this is in the minority.
Really shouldn't care what the FGC thinks anyways. The ones that hate Smash will not become interested by us worrying about what they think.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Doubles is gay

 

[ShrieK1295]

People don't like doubles because they suck at it. Unlike with singles, they decide that it's doubles that they don't like, and they don't bother trying to improve on it (obviously, as the community is, new players wouldn't play if they didn't like singles). So then there's not as much hype because the number of players who can appreciate what's going on is much lower.

 

[michael_li]

i cant perform what god gifted me to with limiting factors like doubles.

that is ****.

 

[phish-it]

I used to enjoy doubles, but now I rarely ever enter it anymore due to lack of a consistent teammate. Doubles is alot of fun when you have synergy, but there also tends to be more salt involved because when you lose, there is more than one person at fault and most people don't like to take the blame for it.

 

[Deathconsciousness]

Doubles is gay

Co-sign tbh.

 

[Max?]

Teams is fun and very intimate for the players. For the average spectator, it's chaotic and damn near to impossible to follow every little intricacy that is happening. I read an article earlier today about Smash and the future of Esports. Our game is very spectator friendly; unlike other games (LoL/Starcraft, and to a lesser extent UMvC and SF) you can learn all the information needed about the match from the character icons and %'s. This simplicity is what makes the game so appealing. People can just jump right in, and enjoy.

Teams on the other hand has way more going on; simply having two more people on the screen alone leads to soooo much happening. It's not as easily accessible for the mainstream audience, and tbh, most of the smash community as well. Other people in this thread have mentioned the other issues associated with the game; feeling reliant on your opponent, not having a set partner, less incentive to get involved, etc. It seems the priorities in our community are pretty clear. High octane, 1v1, space animal madness, where you are solely responsible for your fate. And for the sake of the future of the game, it's probably the better option long term for growth in the scene.


As for myself, I love teams, enter at every event I go to and am probably a stronger teams player than singles (tho my singles game is on the rise). That said, I do not think that there is more skill involved in teams as many people have tried to bring up, just a different set of skills and dynamics which just like anything else, need to be developed and hammered out.

I will also argue that your idea of singles turning into a campfest -> death combo is a gross over generalization. It's natural for ALL competitive endeavors (sports, video games, war, anything) to turn into a war of attrition and maximum punish. It's damn near expected if you are playing anything competitively. The game is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be either.... That or I'm so used to getting camped out it doesn't even phase me anymore.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The lack of a consistent partner is biggest set-back imo. It's much harder to practice as a team as it is as an individual and even then it's even harder to keep track of teams placings and results.

 

[EpixAura]

Singles has always had more prize money, more entrants, and more rivalries and hype than doubles. Not only that, a lot of people don't really know where to start when practicing for doubles. There's also the problem that most means of practicing it require four people, which can be difficult to arrange. Then there's minor issues like people believing their partner isn't good enough, that they aren't good enough for their partner, etc. Of course, finding a partner isn't easy in the first place.

Not only that, what needs to be to succeed in doubles has never really been set in stone. Everyone knows how to practice 1-on-1, and it's much easier to do in general, but when it comes to doubles, very few people actually know what it is they're supposed to be practicing. Entry fee may also have a lot to do with it. Since the pot always goes to singles, the prize money isn't worth trying for for a lot a lot of players, especially when they could be practicing singles for when their next match starts. At larger events, a lot of times only the top teams enter, so most people would just finding themselves paying a few dollars just to get bodied 2 games in a row.

I feel like if the entry fee for doubles was generally reduced and more content was made available about the doubles metagame, doubles would catch on extremely quickly. I absolutely love doubles, and would love to see it get some more support. It's even faster paced and has more depth than singles, and 2-man combos are just so damn sexy.