Why isn't there more focus on doubles?

[Exdeath]

Ultimately, the reason that TOs should care about doubles is that it is both competitor- and spectator-friendly. For competitors it increases game depth by adding new positions/situations and new tools/opposition. For spectators it promotes more character variety (due to a higher level of balance amongst the cast) close-range interaction more often in more match-ups (largely due to the new tools and opposition). Whether it is shielding in Brawl, modern crouch canceling in Melee, or the ubiquitous ledge camping in both games, the past two iterations of Smash clearly favor relatively defensive tactics in singles. In doubles these options are significantly weaker due to the ability of synchronized attacks to defeat any single player's possible actions (this provides another layer of real skill gap that emphasizes practice and adds a unique disadvantageous situation to game depth). In other words, the more time spent is in a 2v1 situation, the more likely that the team is going to win. This practically revolves around aggressive and rushdown play which, nearly by definition, requires more frequent action, although zoning doubles teams are possible -- albeit more difficult -- to play. This allows a wider spectrum of valid character selections, play styles, and talents when compared with singles play, while still including the skills necessary to succeed in singles play to varying degrees.

 

[Overswarm]

When running circuit events for the Midwest in Brawl, we gave points to TEAMS and only half points to individuals.

So if I teamed with Kel and got 1st (40 points) and then teamed with Mew2King and got 2nd (20 points) and the circuit ended, we'd calculate points as


Highest Team Score + (other team score/2)

In my case it'd have been 40 + (20/2) = 50, which would be our total score.

If I had teamed with Kel and got 2nd at the event I got 2nd with M2K, Kel and I would have had 60 points at the end of the event.


This encouraged several teams to play well and play together and also helped for people to encourage their teammates to go.

Because of the circuit's extra money (we took a % from every pot and then handed it out at the end of the seasonal circuit), there was extra incentive to really do well and attend multiple tournaments. Doubles became a much more prized sensation for the top 5 or so teams and this bled over to people spectating.

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

Granted I am new at to this game, but I like teams far more than singles. Hell wombo combo was what got me interested in the competitive side of Melee in the first place. To me, the ultimate combos and best matches to watch are usually team matches. When you see a team have the chemistry and teamwork enough to really take over the game it is exciting. I think it takes generally less tech skill but also takes more mental effort and awareness than singles. Instead of predicting and reacting to one other person, you have to predict and react to three other people. You have to understand how your teammate, the individual characters, and the team as a whole can be helped or hurt by stages, strategies, and the character choices of the other team. It adds such a huge increase in the mental process of fighting that it turns some people away.
I've also noticed that often the people I play with that don't like doubles or don't put that much effort into it, are the ones who main fox, falco, and falcon. They are used to being fast and being able to maul their opponents off a single opening, and that is much harder in a doubles match against a good team. However, I believe that the reason they don't find doubles as fun is because they approach it wrong. for example, fox is used to being able to out speed the other person and pressure shields at will with amazing tech skills. But when he does this in doubles, he often gets surrounded and his singles strategy of running the person down tech-skills blazing puts him in poor 2-on-1 situations. People also don't like to acknowledge the fact that almost every character is played far different in doubles than in singles. They try to take their singles juggernauts and simply do the same stuff in teams, and they get hit by a "random hit" from the person they we're comboing, that person's teammate or even their own, and they are dead, and so they say "doubles is stupid" when all they had to do was pay more attention to the other players around them. Yes, sometimes that means shortening combos, and playing more for stage positioning, but long combos often get interrupted or get you killed.
I don't mean to call out falco, fox and falcon mains, it's just what I've noticed because of the characters play-styles.

 

[DoH]

Fastfaller players are *******, this is why we can't have nice things like Brinstar and Mute City

 

[SacaSuMoto]

All you need to do is lower the entry fee. I do not think doubles NEEDS to have a high amount of viewers for it to be successful, just good a amount of entrants. Doubles is much more fun and intense when playing than when watching. Singles are fun and intense to watch,but doubles aren't as fun/intense to watch.

because it isn't about pride quite like it is for singles.

Since doubles are less about personal winning pride I think the issue of personal money gains can be disregarded.
I like playing doubles, but don't like entering them because of money.
Less entry for doubles = people willing to try teams more = more doubles awareness = ppl getting better at doubles overall = doubles becoming more important to players.

Imo competitive doubles is great for good players, bad for terrible ones... It's fun but do I don't expect to get anything else out of it at the moment.

Sure noob teams will get ***** by pro teams, but noobs get ***** by pros in singles all the time. It's hard to say that a noob gets A LOT from getting ***** by pros in singles...

I think terrible players can still gain a lot from doubles.

Doubles builds confidence in your gameplay when you can get team-combos.
Doubles makes you need to be aware of everything that is going on in the stage, aware of every player, and much more aware of your own actions. (so you can be negate as much as possible those "random" factors)
Doubles teaches the great importance of zoning and punishing. (like punishing westballz that one tourney when he was doing all that sandbagging)

Maybe teams does not directly ask a player to have better technical abilities, but teams does ask players to become more mentally aware and to have a better mindset. (Unless they are arrogant about how legit doubles can be. almost like arrogance about how legit playing "gay" is holds people back)

Doubles is still melee. If you want to get better at melee singles, then it would be worthwhile to improve melee doubles.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

When you've got a consistent teammate that is a homie and is motivated to improved, doubles is way more interesting imo. (Most people lack this)

It's easier to get motivated to improve in doubles when you've got someone else to improve for, getting big wins feels more satisfying because you're sharing it with a close friend that you've worked towards a goal with, and there is more of a sense of pride knowing that you guys as a TEAM have achieved all that you have. Obviously sharing success with a close friend is gonna feel good.

Most people just go to tournaments and team with the best player they can find. When you're teaming with a different person each week, it's easy to see how you'd focus on improving yourself in singles rather than thinking about how to make you teamwork better with random people. It's just hard to establish a deep connection with doubles this way (Unless you play a floaty lol).

 

[KayB]

We should have a doubles only major.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Not a Melee player, but I prefer dubs over singles in every game. I've retired from Brawl except for doubles, and I still travel for tournaments just to play in doubles. I find it more energetic and interesting, and it feels hella awesome to pull off good **** in a team. I find almost nothing more hype than seeing someone succeed in a 2v1.

 

[Europhoria]

I've played tennis all of my life and have always preferred doubles over singles. People complain that they don't like "someone else clutching it out for me" but what about someone covering your weaknesses as a player? Helping you do things you or your character could never do on their own? Does that not bring joy as well?

I think is the worst way you could possibly advertise doubles both in terms of who it would actually convince to get into doubles that are on the fence and the way it portrays the format to those who don't like doubles.

 

[Problem2]

We should have a doubles only major.

Please can we have this?? For an event like this, I think it would be good to have incentive to have a static partner. Perhaps a country wide (or world wide) circuit where static teams earn points towards their seeding at the event.

 

[Oracle]

Fastfaller players are *****es, this is why we can't have nice things like Brinstar and Mute City

Yes please if we ban spacies we have like a dozen more viable stages #freegreengreens

 

[Hax]

doubles is a**

i'm probably #5 at it tho (after Armada/Mango/Hbox/M2K in some order)

 

[D1]

Doubles>Singles

Here is, what I think, the biggest reasons why people overall prefer singles.

1: They don't have a consistent team partner
2: They are not having as much fun because of it
3: Singles already have the most focus so that's why people practice it more
4: Teams is way more complex and the ammount of people understanding teams compares to singles is VERY low.

Until you reach a very good understanding of teams I can understand why you prefer singles. I can promise you guys though that once you reach a super great understanding point of view for teams I think most of you would change opinion.

He basically hit the nail on the head.

1. I know many people who get shafted as if they're at gym waiting to get picked on a team and no one wants to team w/ them b/c of their skill level, so to save themselves from even looking like a fool they won't ask to enter cuz they know all the good ppl already partner up together for the most part. If they ever do team w/ someone good its b/c no one there was left to choose from so they got randomly chosen. For a person who's not too into teams, its pretty disheartening to not have a consistent partner, in your head you'll feel like why is this person not opting to team w/ me more? Is it b/c I'm bad? Maybe I might as well just save money and not enter teams.

2. Yup, when you play sports at gym and you were the last kid chosen, regardless of what team you're on you know you're not on the team b/c they genuinely wanted you there, you were just like the last pick so they had no choice. Throughout the entire game if you have insecurity issues you'll start thinking more about that than the game itself, and you won't even be having fun playing.

3. If you watch combo vids, hype vids, highlights vids, trailers for upcoming events, and so on. The main thing you always see portrayed is singles. If you watch the videos that get the most views on youtube its usually singles. Back then I remembered a few teams would get featured in highlight vids, anyone remember good ol' Alukard and Gmoney?

4. I hear this a lot from NYC players at fests, the fact that people truly don't know how to play teams. People tend to jump in and try to interrupt their teammates combo, giving up positioning needed to cover a teammate's back just in case an opponent is nearby waiting to strike. Things like saving one's teammate, knowing when to forgo edgeguarding an offstage opponent that takes a while to return and focusing on helping the teammate w/ the opponent on stage, and list goes on.

Teams is really complex and fun, and I think people should push to get more people involved in teams. I for one am gonna start entering teams myself since I'm guilty of not entering b/c all the teammates I wanted were taken. Back then I used to team with anybody regardless of who they were, and thats when I really enjoyed teams, so I guess regardless of what placing I get, if it helps the community...i'll do it.

 

[Armada]

Glad to hear that and great post that explained what I meant way more in detail.
I think one thing that hold many back in improving in teams is the fact that you in singles try to search for the best thing for YOU to do. In teams you have see what the best thing for you to do is but you have to consider your team8 too and that means many times a different results then it would have been in singles.

I realized that be aware of the fact that sending an opponent to your team8 is something a lot of players never consider. So my "strategy" to improve newer players/people with less experience in teams was to send them the "ball" as often as I could (basically).

I have seen a lot of improvement for some people over the years cause if they over and over, at first, see that they miss obvious stuff (can be good to point out if they still don't see it) they will fix it. So eventually they will pass or finish the stock. MAYBE they will start sending you the ball back too cause they see how sucessfully it is.

If we wanna have more people enter teams I think it could be a good idea if people with GREAT understanding in teams could play teams with new players or pretty good players in singles that lack the understanding. Cause eventually we will have even more great team players and then more people can help the knowledge to grow.

Take one for the team

 

[CyberZixx]

I never got into teams. It's too hectic to watch so I never watch teams at tournaments. I just prefer activities that test an individual over a team. The skill sets seems way different in teams a well. I like the neutral game and heavy punish game of singles. It is what makes smash exciting to me. Besides, my main is not a team player. As you said, there are not static teams no little hype is had when teams are always switching as it appears not serious.

 

[Smokey Huntz]

I think Teams is a very old school thing.
The problem feels almost generational. Like when you go to a tourney every old school player is talking to each other or trying to talk to newer players but like new players are mad closed off and quite. That tightness is what made teams like you played with your homie (See, DJ&ALU, TheLittleRascals, El Cholate Diablo, Newly weds, 4 leaf mango, PC&OTG). New smashers don't really communicate or even talk to each other even during singles. It's kinda that sad social ineptness that caused teams to suffer.

I also think if we want teams to be big again TO's should start offering pot bonuses for it

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think at smashfests people should run free-to-enter "balanced dubs" events, where top players are paired with lower-level players. It gives the lower players a confidence boost in teams and is also hype as **** sometimes. I was the low-level player at the last event we did this at and my team won the tournament

 

[bubbaking]

It's called a ProAM bracket.