why isnt melee HUGE?

[Masmasher@]

What is technical in melee that is that hard that is actually useful? Things like IMCF in soul calibur or one frame knee to byakko doublepalm demand more technical prowless. Also didnt dogysamich already explain why stage counter picking doesnt add more depth. Melee is more stage dependant because the objectives of how to beat the opponent are different and having that capablitity makes it what it is... different, not having more depth just different.
Also tell me what game dont you have to be consistent in. random aspects of a fighter depriciating your characters skill doesnt show more depth it just shows inequity.

Most of what i'm hearing is ambigious and an be accounted for both sides.

 

[Jihnsius]

I said nothing about technical skill, I'm trying to leave that part out of the discussion completely since it has little room in the actual metagame, any well skilled player should be able to do all technical aspects of their respective game consistently. Consistency wasn't what I was getting at either, I was trying to comment on exactly how much information the player has to consider before taking an action.

 

[Masmasher@]

I said nothing about technical skill, I'm trying to leave that part out of the discussion completely since it has little room in the actual metagame, any well skilled player should be able to do all technical aspects of their respective game consistently. Consistency wasn't what I was getting at either, I was trying to comment on exactly how much information the player has to consider before taking an action.

I know you didnt say it voodoo did though.
Also really aside from hit, grab or bait what does the person have to consider thats so differnt from other fighting games?

 

[rehab]

Good Smash (Melee) is deeper than any competitive fighter I have ever played, including:

All competitive Guilty Gear (Focus on #R and AC).
SF2T / HDR, SF3 Alpha, Third Strike, SF4.
MvC2.
CvS2.
BlazBlue (BUY THIS GAME).

Amongst others, and I consider myself above average at all of them (Based on tournament performance).

Smash is without a doubt the most techincal / deep of all of them, if not just for the insane hand speed you need to be a consistent player.

The only other game that comes close to Melee in terms of speed-technicality is MvC2 (Things like S/D Trapping, ROM Infinites, etc), but even then it's all just memorization. One could argue stuff like Keeper-Jin'ing or Urien Unblockables are just as hard, but they would be wrong.

Most fighters have two big points:

1. Learn your characters combo's, links, chains, whatever and how to consistently pull them off.
2. Learn what characters you can use what combos on, what links work on who, etc.

1) More technical =/= more deeper
2) More fast =/= more deeper
3)Setups are far, far, far, far, far more important in every fighter than just "I know this combo, I will now use it whenever." Melee's setups are easy. Performing them requires a lot of technical weight-lifting yeah, but jump-in at the right time -> pillar ain't that hard to figure put up against more legit zoning, high/low/overheads and unblockable mixups. I would argue strict spacing in SF say is not actually a detriment to depth, also.

 

[Rubyiris]

I believe that most other 2d fighters have more depth to them than Melee. Especially when it comes to setups, as stated above.

Just because you know your characters BNBs, and which strings work on which characters, as well as your characters pressure strings, and mix-ups, doesn't mean you're golden. Setups are much more important in most other fighters, and much harder to work with.

BNBs are like Melee's technical skill. It's important to a degree, but what's more important are baits and setups. Like I said earlier in the thread, just because I consistent technical skill, and the ability to perform just about every advanced technique bar multiple JC shines, doesn't mean I can beat a player who ONLY L-Cancels 50% of the time against shields, and ONLY wave dashes as his two ATs. He has a much better grasp of the fundamentals. He's much better at forcing me to make mistakes, and he's much better at punishing me accordingly, which in the end makes all the difference. It's the same when it comes to other fighters. Just because you know your character, doesn't mean you're any good.

 

[Rat]

What does depth mean in the context of a game?

Spoiler

Replayability? Presence of Multiple playing styles? A very large amount of game positions (ie difficult optimization)? Life span of the competitive community around it? Sufficient options for competitive play? Difficult learning curve?

 

[Dogysamich]

This thread reminds me of why I hate Smashboards.

Real talk - dont get bent about it. I have moments like this all the time, it only hurts you in the long run. Everybody's not going to agree one way or the other, that's just how it goes.

I obviously cant sit here and tell you melee has no depth and I cant convince you melee has less depth than any thing you've played. That's your opinion.

Same goes for me, you cant convince me melee has MORE than those games.

It's just a debate.

Only person who really loses anything when you blow up is you. Trust me, I've been there. -offtopic rant here-

-wavedashing not being special-

Woah woah, i wont go as far as to say it's not special. I probably talk down on it more than i should (especially in comparison to other stuff), but it's still important to have, just like any other game it's in.

Yeah, when you compare it to the likes of Stepping, it pales in comparison; but it still represents a movement option (which is kinda big >.>)

Smash is without a doubt the most techincal / deep of all of them, if not just for the insane hand speed you need to be a consistent player.

It being the "most technical" is a debate of it's own right (i personally dont think it is because -> )

But if technicallity and hand speed really make melee stand out among the other games, then why is jiggs such a good character? You dont have to do any a large amount of absurd techs. No hard ridiculous dashes or cancels, just alot of patience and following up.

-stages-

First, I cant act like stages DONT have any depth in smash. I'd be officially talking out of my *** if I said that (even including variables).

But you're saying that a person has to know how to play on every stage to win, which adds depth. That's not specifically the case.

Take the recent set of Shroomed vs Lunin, for example(i only linked to the first vid, im lazy)

What happens is Lunin wins game 1, 3, and 5. Shroomed wins 2 and 4. Lunin wins on Battlefield, Stadium, then Yoshis. Shroomed wins on Brinstar and Mute City.

All that stems from Lunin winning game one, which will always be played on 1 of (at most) 6 stages. If Lunin can beat people on all 6 neutrals stages, why does he ever HAVE to learn the CPs? I mean, there is the obvious "incase he needs it", but realistically if he makes himself unbeatable on the 6 neutrals, he theoretically cant lose a set.

(Yes, it's theory, not practice. I know)

There are so many nuances in this game that must be taken into account before you act, the game's extreme variability on every aspect makes it's nearly impossible to predict the outcome of any set of actions you take.

Again, that's true; but that's one thing people dont like.

If im playing cable in mvc2 (dont ask me why the **** im playing mvc2) and Im fishing for jumping shot hits, everytime I see a shot go through, I'm getting my Air Hyper Viper Beam.

If im playing sheik, I could sit there spacing f.airs because I want you to die. 1 time you might die, the next time you might be trying to d.tilt me (for some ungodly reason) and just slide across the ground, the next time I might get blasted by slippy. It's all possible.

Some people do not like variables.

What is technical in melee that is that hard that is actually useful?

I want to just fly off and agree with you, but I know better. That's really opinion (as much as I hate to agree with it myself).

I know people who can ROM all day in MvC2 who cant SH to save their life with ANY character in melee.

There are some things that ARE flat out hard in everything, but the genereal stuff really just comes down to the person.

What does depth mean in the context of a game?

The way I look at it is like this.

Depth is the presence of usable and viable options that come from a variety of situations. ("Educated" cliffnotes definition. XD)

Think of it like this.

Take the age old fireball trap from SF2. Ryu gets somebody in a corner, throws a fireball, they jump-in (for whatever reason), he shoryukens. *just go with me, i know this isnt absolute*

In SF2, the above example is what happens in this situation when you jumpin in this scenario. You get SRK'd. End of discussion.

In the Alpha series, I have 2 options I could do. I could
1) activate my Custom Combo (which gives me invinc), bypass the srk, and combo the **** out of him.

or
2) I could just airblock. XD

In the SF3 series, I could parry and counterattack as I jump in (but I cant airblock)

___

All that is just from ONE case scenario. Loads and loads of those is depth.

 

[HammerBro123]

i think melee is the way to go it uses more skill then brawl does it also has more players that are actually good like chu m2K and ken but brawl does have good players its just not as exciting as melee masters

 

[Archangel]

This thread is kinda funny. I think Melee win's hands down compared to other games for 1 reason alone. I can play almost every 2D fighter game with a Blindfold on or I can take off my shoe's and sock's and play with my toes. No joking. When I was board back in the Sega days I'd play street fighter by myself Hands against toes. I've actually beat people using my toes I could NEVER do that in Melee...or even Brawl for that matter.

 

[EPsilon933]

Whether is deeper than other fighters or not is partly based on opinion. Smash games are just different. Most fighting games have only a small difference in how far attacks send you and how much the player getting comboed can escape (referring to DI and teching). In Smash, a move could send you 2 feet at 0% and could be a good knock out move at 100%. As you keep building damage, you're going to have to chase your opponent more to keep continuing the combo, rather than finishing the button combo. I'm sure there's a lot more for traditional fighters after finishing the button combo, but that's not really my point. In Smash, players have a great amount of control on how far and what angle they're sent at (compared to other fighting games).

tl;dr Smash has more dynamic comboes

 

[Ja]

Do other games have something similar to crouch canceling? I think cc adds depth, it's another defensive option, and it only works in certain % ranges against certain attacks.

 

[K64]

hmmph...

IMO Melee isn't as popular as all of the others because it's not manly. I mean, no guns, blood, or burly men? No thank you...............I kid. Maybe some of these grown people don't want to be seen playing with a game that has Mario (or Poke'mon) in it. MGL didn't advertise it enough to be competitive?

 

[keeper]

IMO Melee isn't as popular as all of the others because it's not manly. I mean, no guns, blood, or burly men? No thank you...............I kid. Maybe some of these grown people don't want to be seen playing with a game that has Mario (or Poke'mon) in it. MGL didn't advertise it enough to be competitive?

Captain Falcon.

 

[Cosmo!]

melee's shield system isn't random

 

[rehab]

Crouch canceling is a terrible mechanic. Thankfully, few other games have any form of rewarding a player for getting hit in a neutral position. 3S' parrying does something like that, and it's very much a love it or hate it thing that makes 3S kind of random.

 

[joeplicate]

This thread is kinda funny. I think Melee win's hands down compared to other games for 1 reason alone. I can play almost every 2D fighter game with a Blindfold on or I can take off my shoe's and sock's and play with my toes. No joking. When I was board back in the Sega days I'd play street fighter by myself Hands against toes. I've actually beat people using my toes I could NEVER do that in Melee...or even Brawl for that matter.

sounds like you need to play better players

 

[HT F8]

sounds like you need to play better players

Nah, the controls/controller's a lot more simple, that's kinda the point he was getting at.

Not sure if complicated controllers make the game deeper, but if it did... Melee is deep as **** cause that GC controller is a mess. lol.

 

[MOTM]

Samich, just a troll with moderator status, I assume post count means something to you. OMG I REACHED 5000 POSTS ON A FORUM FOR A GAME I HATE!
An active member since 2002 b*tching about the game NOW?
If you're into those newer games why still moderate here, go to those games forums, they are in your opinion apparently better than smash, and the smash comminuty is bad and rigs brackets so why not just leave this whole game. Are you that big of a troll that you can't leave until this forum dies or until your "moderator" status gets taken away? Love trolling the smash community, and you will most likely troll this post with two or three biased paragraphs I have no god **** intention on reading.

 

[Jihnsius]

Disagreeing with the opinion on the game's depth has nothing to do with whether or not he likes the game. Why are you even here if your first post is assaulting a moderator?

 

[channlsrfr]

Crouch canceling is a terrible mechanic. Thankfully, few other games have any form of rewarding a player for getting hit in a neutral position. 3S' parrying does something like that, and it's very much a love it or hate it thing that makes 3S kind of random.

Um ... if you're crouch canceling, you're not in a neutral position? ... Unless I'm missing something...

I like the debate; I think it's been a healthy one. I don't know nearly enough about other fighters to participate, but I will say this: The reason I love Melee is because it's the only fighting game I can play in which both players can fight indefinitely -- without standing on solid ground -- over a bottomless abyss. (By swapping edge possessions.) **Awesome**

Depth = whatever ... I'm not qualified. I LOVE the edge game, is all I know.

 

[Archangel]

Nah, the controls/controller's a lot more simple, that's kinda the point he was getting at.

Not sure if complicated controllers make the game deeper, but if it did... Melee is deep as **** cause that GC controller is a mess. lol.

I'm glad someone got. I was starting to think my humor was wasted.

 

[Eggm]

Lol, everyone arguing against smash in this thread has used EVERY OTHER FIGHTING game combined in order to win some of the arguments. I think that alone makes smash deeper. You argue against just melee you have to use multiple other fighting games combined to get equivalent counters to all melees advanced stuff.

 

[Archangel]

Lol, everyone arguing against smash in this thread has used EVERY OTHER FIGHTING game combined in order to win some of the arguments. I think that alone makes smash deeper. You argue against just melee you have to use multiple other fighting games combined to get equivalent counters to all melees advanced stuff.

and even then you fall short.

 

[Eggm]

Lol, I don't know anything about other fighters, but i keep hearing like "this" from soul caliber "This was here first" in GG " this is in street fighter 3s " I do'nt know a thing about other fighters but just from reading the thread i was like **** people had to bring up MAD games just to fight vs melee. i'm like **** melee isn't deep cause 8 games combined have the same technique equivalents combined? Hmmm.\

I do know enough however to know that none of them have an equivalent to edge guarding or platforms (aka stages mattering) Yah they might have thrilling ariel combat with mutliple jump combos and all that but you can never do ground stuff on a level above the bottom part of the level like with platforms and melee has.

 

[Archangel]

Lol, I don't know anything about other fighters, but i keep hearing like "this" from soul caliber "This was here first" in GG " this is in street fighter 3s " I do'nt know a thing about other fighters but just from reading the thread i was like **** people had to bring up MAD games just to fight vs melee. i'm like **** melee isn't deep cause 8 games combined have the same technique equivalents combined? Hmmm.

Yeah it's kinda sad. Brawl/Brawl+ Is enough to knock off most of the games mentioned. We use to get my mom to play tekken 3 and 4 back in the day and I'd have friends come over and she'd beat them. How? Simply by Raking her fingers across random buttons and getting lucky That is possible with all the games mentioned. I mean playing it blindly or just rake random buttons and be successful and then calling it deep?....I fail to see it.

 

[Eggm]

Well thats dumb and proves nothing, but it reminds me of a story at work when i worked at holloywood video. My friend ken said that all fighters are dumb cause with button mashing you could always win sometimes. And i told him not melee and we played we went got smash off the shelf and put in the gamecube display thing. And i 4 stocked him. I even kept all items on and everything cause he said changing the rules were cheating. And he button mashed the whole time cause he had noidea how to play. I think its more possible to loose in the other fighting games via button mashing than in smash but that doesn't make it deeper lol. It is part of why its different tho.

 

[rehab]

Um ... if you're crouch canceling, you're not in a neutral position? ... Unless I'm missing something...

The point is, are you punished for crouching? No, just wave dash out or jump or whatever. The risk/reward is far more skewed than, say game with a counter on block function where you do something like a specific input and use meter to make the other guy gtfo on block. In melee, it's hold down and stop most all 1 hit jump ins. That's retardedly skewed.

Eggm, the point is that so much of this is STANDARD **** in many games, and putting melee on a pedestal for its features is only hurting. Many games also take everything melee specializes in and go above and beyond the call in some form, as do GG and MvC2. It's simple enough to figure out your friend didn't know jack **** about what he was talking about.

To people whining about Dogy: try attacking his points. He also obviously likes the game, don't be "those SWF reactionaries." We don't need more of them. He isn't even close to trolling, he is saying smash players often have skewed and uneducated views of their games. He is right in many more cases here than he is wrong. Trolling? Please, this isn't even close. You want to see smash getting subjectively ripped apart in an unsubstantiated trolling fashion that I wouldn't dream of being such an uninformed **** as to do?

There you go then.


On controls being more simple, so long as that's the extent of how far you go into that point: nah. Not even.

 

[Dogysamich]

Disagreeing with the opinion on the game's depth has nothing to do with whether or not he likes the game. Why are you even here if your first post is assaulting a moderator?

Some people just dont have anything better to do but troll. XD

-hollywood video lol-

.... Eggm come on man, you know you're actually good at melee. Somebody mashing isnt going to beat you. XD

But you're saying that if somebody mashes they'd eventually beat somebody of Valle's or Flashmetroid's caliber.

 

[teeman92]

i dont think 60 of ppl i know still have a gamecube

 

[Masmasher@]

Lol, I don't know anything about other fighters, but i keep hearing like "this" from soul caliber "This was here first" in GG " this is in street fighter 3s " I do'nt know a thing about other fighters but just from reading the thread i was like **** people had to bring up MAD games just to fight vs melee. i'm like **** melee isn't deep cause 8 games combined have the same technique equivalents combined? Hmmm.\

I do know enough however to know that none of them have an equivalent to edge guarding or platforms (aka stages mattering) Yah they might have thrilling ariel combat with mutliple jump combos and all that but you can never do ground stuff on a level above the bottom part of the level like with platforms and melee has.

Well some one said
"I think that melee is deeper than other fighters" So really why wouldnt you use a multitude of other fighters to debate that . That would be shortining the artilery for no reason. Also no melee doesnt have the technical equivalents combined its just that people keep saying things in melee that are not really revolutionary but just make it a different type of game. I could compare SC by itself to melee and make a decent arguement about why its deeper.
For example people that say"
"well melee has DI so that makes you options better"

I could say something like
" soul caliber III has varible cancel. That make you combo options larger"

Stages are another layer to melee but thats because thats what the game focuses on. Beating you opponent off the side of the screen. Its also that very reason LOL that spam cant beat people (horrible people) by playing with his toes in this game.

I agree about smash peoles opinions being skewed. I like the game as much as anyone else here but I'm not naive enough to think that Its deeper than other fighting games.

 

[LLDL]

Some people just dont have anything better to do but troll. XD


.... Eggm come on man, you know you're actually good at melee. Somebody mashing isnt going to beat you. XD

But you're saying that if somebody mashes they'd eventually beat somebody of Valle's or Flashmetroid's caliber.

He's talking about in other fighters. Me and eggm've had this conversation be4. Some kid button mashing in street fighter has a chance of beating someone whos been pro palying for years. And thats the truth lol. Take ultimate mortal kombat 3. I've been playing it for 2 months (not everyday, more like once a week) and I can beat the top 10 best players, a few with relative ease. I've played them all. Thats just shows you how easy it is to get good at that particular fighter. In Street Fighter, it is slightly harder, but I can punch, trip, repeat and beat pro players. In Melee, there is 0% chance for a beginner whos only even been playing a couple of months to beat me. And there is zero percent chance for me to beat a top pro. Melee has the most extensive, and most deep gameplay man It takes years + to master, and it still hasn't even been mastered fully. Name one fighter that'll take as much time as melee to get good. Keep in mind that the highest level of melee play hasn't been found yet. The highest level of play in other fighting games have been found.

As for flashmetroid, I bet he's lost to a couple of average players. In other fighters, the only thing that really separates a known pro and averages are their win record.

 

[NES n00b]

I don't even know why this conversations even come up really. To be honest, no one is ever going to go into these things and have all the necessary tools to make a decision based on what is better especially when it gets into subjective stuff like being able to DI is better to have game mechanic then more situational technical dial a combos.

 

[Perpz]

This thread reminds me of why I hate Smashboards.

lol, arguements are still valid in a thread, its a discussion ...

 

[EPsilon933]

Does it really matter if Melee is deeper than other fighters?

 

[HT F8]

Samich, just a troll with moderator status, I assume post count means something to you. OMG I REACHED 5000 POSTS ON A FORUM FOR A GAME I HATE!
An active member since 2002 b*tching about the game NOW?
If you're into those newer games why still moderate here, go to those games forums, they are in your opinion apparently better than smash, and the smash comminuty is bad and rigs brackets so why not just leave this whole game. Are you that big of a troll that you can't leave until this forum dies or until your "moderator" status gets taken away? Love trolling the smash community, and you will most likely troll this post with two or three biased paragraphs I have no god **** intention on reading.

Worst post in Smashboards history? I think so.

He's talking about in other fighters. Me and eggm've had this conversation be4. Some kid button mashing in street fighter has a chance of beating someone whos been pro palying for years. And thats the truth lol. Take ultimate mortal kombat 3. I've been playing it for 2 months (not everyday, more like once a week) and I can beat the top 10 best players, a few with relative ease. I've played them all. Thats just shows you how easy it is to get good at that particular fighter. In Street Fighter, it is slightly harder, but I can punch, trip, repeat and beat pro players. In Melee, there is 0% chance for a beginner whos only even been playing a couple of months to beat me. And there is zero percent chance for me to beat a top pro. Melee has the most extensive, and most deep gameplay man It takes years + to master, and it still hasn't even been mastered fully. Name one fighter that'll take as much time as melee to get good. Keep in mind that the highest level of melee play hasn't been found yet. The highest level of play in other fighting games have been found.

As for flashmetroid, I bet he's lost to a couple of average players. In other fighters, the only thing that really separates a known pro and averages are their win record.

Dude, that is complete BS. You cannot beat Daigo's Ken, JWong's Chun, JR's Gouki, or KO's Yun (3s examples) by "punch trip repeat". I personally think that Melee is the deepest, so I agree with your opinion, but to say you can beat the top players of hugely popular fighting games by mashing or doing 3 moves is just ignorance.

 

[NES n00b]

Some of you guys should really play some other fighters and I mean really should. Some of these statements about other fighters are....I won't get into it but some of them are flat wrong.

 

[Cia]

ive played almost every game competitively on the MLG gamelist, i recently picked up ssbm and i cant seem to figure it out, why isnt melee bigger than the rest of these ****ty games? halo 3=put the dot on their head and pull right trigger, gow 2= press A a ****load... but super smash is much deeper. when it is played on a very high level it seems almost impossible to fully understand what is going on. the strategy involved, and the sheer skill blows me away. im trying to get all my friends off the halo bandwagon and to give smash a shot. it blew me away, and i hope it will for them as well...

it's rare to see people take interest in the game right now, but it's never too late to start. but it does take a while to get really good. I hope more people feel like this because melee needs to become dominant again.

 

[Zone]

halo is team coordination combined with reaction speed and accuracy. i enjoy playing it and i enjoy watching pro matches, but the depth and strategy is nothing to melee.

melee still hasnt hit its maximum depth, 8 years later. you have a limited area to share with someone trying to punish you for every small mistake you do. it is a super high paced game of keep away. you have to understand your opponent's strategy and movements 100% while simultaneously moving and staying unpredictable. every combo has many opportunities for escape if you make the right decision, but both players are in each other's head so much its hard to make an unexpected decision.

i'm not exaggerating when i say melee is the best game ever made. i have never found another game as deep and gratifying.

I know this is late. But I'd have to agree with you minus one thing. I think Starcraft is more deep and gratifying.

 

[metaXzero]

The point is, are you punished for crouching? No, just wave dash out or jump or whatever. The risk/reward is far more skewed than, say game with a counter on block function where you do something like a specific input and use meter to make the other guy gtfo on block. In melee, it's hold down and stop most all 1 hit jump ins. That's retardedly skewed.

Eggm, the point is that so much of this is STANDARD **** in many games, and putting melee on a pedestal for its features is only hurting. Many games also take everything melee specializes in and go above and beyond the call in some form, as do GG and MvC2. It's simple enough to figure out your friend didn't know jack **** about what he was talking about.

To people whining about Dogy: try attacking his points. He also obviously likes the game, don't be "those SWF reactionaries." We don't need more of them. He isn't even close to trolling, he is saying smash players often have skewed and uneducated views of their games. He is right in many more cases here than he is wrong. Trolling? Please, this isn't even close. You want to see smash getting subjectively ripped apart in an unsubstantiated trolling fashion that I wouldn't dream of being such an uninformed **** as to do?

There you go then.


On controls being more simple, so long as that's the extent of how far you go into that point: nah. Not even.

Everytime I see that thread, part of me dies and I lose respect for both SRK and Smashboards.

On-topic. Melee is an old Gamecube game with a semi-steep learning curve (for tourney play) and a sequel with a much smaller curve. Being the older sibling sucks.

How the Smash vs. traditional fighters come about here? I'd figure Melee still get's decent attendence numbers vs. other fighters brought up...

 

[NES n00b]

Trying to pull the "I'm too exasperated to deal with this unrestrained, misunderstanding hate" card to what I am saying after what NES NOOB went through with dignity at SRK is pointless. Don't be that guy.

No one is supposed to remember me doing anything. All these threads make me think of some kind of weird madlib thread where only the nouns are changed. Sentences like "_______ (fighting game) is better because __________ (something that is present in all fighting games) is so deep."