why isnt melee HUGE?

[Dogysamich]

He's talking about in other fighters. Me and eggm've had this conversation be4. Some kid button mashing in street fighter has a chance of beating someone whos been pro palying for years. And thats the truth lol. Take ultimate mortal kombat 3.

Like somebody said, you cant convince me that somebody is going to mash and win against anybody with real merit in other games. That's like if people said a marth can come randomly f.smash and beat eggm. It's just not going to happen.

Does it really matter if Melee is deeper than other fighters?

. . . naaaaa, we're still gunna play it regardless.

 

[Zone]

I know this isn't everyone. But most of my friends who loved melee from the beginning don't want to go to tournaments and compete because they had a bad encounter with a stuck up prick.

I've met Nes n00b, GAWes, Chudat, Dogysamich, Alpha, Prac, DAshizwiz, Green Mario, Chaddd, Wife, and much much more.

I thought these people were real cool. And I deeply admired the community. Because, well I just happened to meet the right people.

My friends on the other hand. I don't want to start a bashing and a fight, So i'm not mention names. But My friend was trying to improve and enjoy a tournament. And what he got was this.

Someone decided to go get lunch During the tournament, rather than the break between tournies or whenever. And forced the WHOLE tournament to wait for him. When he got back people basically had to wait for him to play like 4 matches in a row. Making the tournament approximately last 1 hour longer

This isn't the end. My friend also played against someone who was way better than him. And got a remark like "That was the worst Doc in the world." Granted... a real person should man up and ignore such a ignorant comment and come back and **** him next time. But the truth is he was not at all pleased because of a 3-4 douchebags. If most of my friends had been in my shoes where my first tournament in Georgia, people greeted me. Made comments, and gave me random advice w/o me even having to ask. I saw that as deep concern. Something a friend does for a friend. You help w/o even having to be asked. So I loved the community after that. And I thought it was great how I could merely trust strangers to house me and be cool about it.

If you guys can keep the same attitude as when I first started and treat new players like you all treated me. You could find some keepers.



Another factor I believe is because melee has a huge gap. All you got left are God players (Mango, M2k, Dashizwiz ect... although as tourney results show I'm starting to think mango needs to be in his own tier), Then you got your next layer of people who I believe are like hungry box colbol Silentwolf, Zhu, Kage ect. Then your more casual competitors. Everyone form casual up, are satisfied because they can alteast beat 2-3 people at a tournament. if not all of them as you move up the tier in skill. However a fresh new player, most of the time is alone when he shows up. Or he brings 1-2 of his fresh friends. And it's not fun when they can't beat not a single stranger. And it's not easy for them to notice their progress when even if they learned to l-cancel, and how to mix up their grabs just a bit more. You still 4stock them because they are still predictable enough and steal have many openings.

All this cut short. I believe if you find a way to increase the size of fresh newbs showing up in large numbers dramatically. It would benefit way more than having 1-2 come to a tournament at a time.

That way the newbs can appreciate their newly learned techs amongst themselves, then when they get knocked out by a casual compeitor+, they don't feel so bad cuz they took out atleast 2-3 people on the way.

Where if they only showed up with 1-2 of them. All the new players everytime will always be knocked out first round in winners and first round in losers and give up.

And when they finally progress enough to show one of the casuals a run for their money. And move up the tree even further after that. Then they can love the game. It makes the journey up there smoother.

Kind of like crossing a rope-wood bridge like in Indiana Jones. If the first half of the wooden planks to walk on are all gone. You don't really want to struggle to shimmey half way accross the bridge before you can walk again. If enough broken pieces (newbs) are lying around. You can rebuild that path to make the journey to the end of it a little more fun/smoother.

 

[Archangel]

@Zone It's SUPER EFFECTIVE!!! I mean seriously...what do you say after a post like that? I don't know at all. I will say that I always thought it was a good Idea to have a side tourney for newbies or first time Tournament players. I play the game but I've never been to an official tourney. I've been to Side-bar not really tourney's and have done well or won but it's not the same. I think if anything else nerves would take me out unless I got some confidence in some pre-tournament friendlies.

 

[rehab]

In Street Fighter, it is slightly harder, but I can punch, trip, repeat and beat pro players.

That's interesting. Vid?

 

[Masmasher@]

I think the key phrase is "pro players" lol
Though what i hated about that SRK thread is that they called smash kiddie for a justifiable reason as to why it wasnt a legit fighting game. Which was utter BS and they classified / generalized melee with brawl which is several kinds of stupid

 

[Cosmo!]

everybody playing melee is too good already so its hard to jump in and feel any improvement.

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

I fit in the "new player" category, and me and two "new" friends were considering going to Genesis..

Iono what you guys would do, but I know I'm new and I know I'd get owned, so I'd mostly stick around the friendlies TV and play against.. well.. friendly people :O

It really helps when you have like 5-6 people that want to get better at Smash.

THen again, I'm probably one of the luckier new players to have such a great community near me AND live in Southern Cal..

 

[Cosmo!]

you need like... 1 pro who wrecks you, 1 rival who plays at your level, and 1 noob for you to trash, to really get the motivation going strong

I remember Cactuar making a post about this awhile back

 

[metaXzero]

Cosmo! Where does that gif hail from?

 

[Cia]

I like the idea of having a pro bracket and a .. .. rookie bracket. with a rookie bracket, you can take all kinds of people (even players who started out in brawl and have an interest in melee, but are too intimidated by high level players) and let them compete against each other in their own bracket. But they can get much better by playing against the 'pros' in friendlies and they'll be lots of opportunities to get advice and make friends, etc. But it'll increase turn out and over all hype for melee events :D

thoughts?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

how would you determine who is and isn't allowed in the different brackets?

 

[NES n00b]

how would you determine who is and isn't allowed in the different brackets?

Just put me in the amateur bracket. Done

 

[Cia]

how would you determine who is and isn't allowed in the different brackets?

the same way you'd seed for normal tournament brackets. By now, we know who's who. when you don't know someone, you'd see what their capable of, and the seeder will use his/her judgement.

 

[SDC]

first of all, good **** zone! that was my experience too, when i went to a local tourney, there were some people who were cool, but most were mediocre. i came away with a meh experience, kinda positive or negative, depending on how you look at it. i dont know i live in minnesota so theres not an extremely rich smash scene there, but thankfully most of those who do play smash play melee so thats nice.

anyway i also love the idea of "rookie bracket" and "veteran bracket"
it should be differenciated by either or both:

1. pre-tourney friendlies, people play other skilled players and they all give each other a ranking

2. people submit a card with a score from 1-10 on it. 1-5 is rookie brackets, 5-10 is veteran brackets.

3. maybe a small 1-2 match pretourney tourney that doesnt really count, people who lose early get lower brackets in real tourney.

there are many other ways of doing this, anybody else got any ideas?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Just seems like a lot of work and baby-ing for no reason. I don't really see why people would want to compete against others who are considered to be at the bottom half of the skill pool.

 

[SDC]

i dont. in fact, i dont mind losing. but this is for those who need to win to keep on coming back. if we can get these people to keep on coming back, we will eventually increase our numbers through their added support. there are some poeple who dont want to come back if they get 4-stocked in the first round, so were trying to keep them from feeling too discouraged. we want them to come back, who knows, a few of them might have great talent at this game and be top-tier one of these days.

 

[Leacero]

Tournament pricing is also an issue. Going into a tournament as a new player knowing that you're just throwing 20-30 dollars away just to improve a little (if at all) isn't very inviting. Have more local public Smashfests at someone's house or decrease venue fees and what not so the newer audience has a place to go to play with others and improve.

 

[Cia]

Just seems like a lot of work and baby-ing for no reason. I don't really see why people would want to compete against others who are considered to be at the bottom half of the skill pool.

because knowing that you have a better shot to win money builds motivation. this will raise attendance numbers. eventually, they'd get good enough to enter the veteran bracket (i like that name better) where they will proceed to gain the much needed experience to make it further.

the BIGGEST reason people stop going to melee tournaments is because they don't have the motivation. getting 4 stocked first round isn't confidence booster, and it doesn't teach you anything. double negative. playing against people that are challenging but not 'impossible' to beat will inspire them to get better. i have a pretty good feeling it'll work out, but the trouble lies in organizing something like this.

Leacero - i completely agree. this is something best done at weeklies, or something like that

 

[Eggm]

Tournament pricing is also an issue. Going into a tournament as a new player knowing that you're just throwing 20-30 dollars away just to improve a little (if at all) isn't very inviting. Have more local public Smashfests at someone's house or decrease venue fees and what not so the newer audience has a place to go to play with others and improve.

I think if there were a rookie tournament putting that money in would be very welcome cause they actually have a chance of winning a big amount of money back.

IMO smashfests don't give you the same motivation and amount of skill increase as tournaments do. I got good by never missing a tournament. I think its the fastest way to get better.

 

[Ojanya]

ya there is some basic teamwork going on, nothing more than callouts tho. ive played halo since the beginning, and i think it is too easy...

I don't know if i believe that you've truly played it competitively if you just "put the dot on their head and pull the trigger"

Also, there's more going on than calling things out...

I prefer smash, but I'm just saying. FPS are always more popular these days because it's easier to lose on a team, and possibly some people believe it's more fun.

 

[Heartz♥]

Not everyone likes a game filled with corny characters. Most hardcore gamers ridicule games like Smash.

You really narrowed it down. The same question can be asked for Brawl. But of course, Brawl is bigger than what Melee was for the obvious reasons, but let's not get into that.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

For someone with no experience and average fingers (that is, the fingers of an average person, not an average Melee player)?
And tech skill isn't even the half of it.


Losing every single ****ing match because everyone around you has been playing for years and you don't stand the slightest chance against them while still trying to become good at the game is much more like work than fun.

Melee's age has brought about a "skill wall" that keeps new players from coming in unless they're very determined, and most people aren't. It's very hard to get into a game where everyone around you has been playing for a long time and you have literally no chance of competing with them until you've done the same... assuming that they aren't getting better themselves.

BINGO /THREAD

He is more on point than you guys care to admit. I started 9 months ago, and although I improved VERY fast (in melee terms), I recently went to a local tourny and got wrecked. I could hang with some of the bad kids, but no one that was good. This is after playing friendlies literally at the least an hour/day to 3-4 hours a day every day for 9 months. After first semester the gap between us and 2 of our friends who were learning was so big that they were unmotivated to play because they literally stood no chance. The gap between good people and I is still huge. Thank god I had Trail up at state to show us how ****ty we were.

The skill gap is to huge to overcome now.

 

[MaNg0]

no johns about how long u have been playing

i won pound 3 off like a year of playing

=D


and melee isnt huge because people dont

wanna put time into it

lazy fukers

 

[SDC]

no johns about how long u have been playing

i won pound 3 off like a year of playing

=D


and melee isnt huge because people dont

wanna put time into it

lazy fukers

rofl dont forget revival of melee.

hey i put time into it, just not enough.....i have a life........NOT lol

 

[Archangel]

no johns about how long u have been playing

i won pound 3 off like a year of playing

=D


and melee isnt huge because people dont

wanna put time into it

lazy fukers

Some people spend to much time working, making money, Going to school/college, or eh...getting laid to improved as much as you. I mean I'll admit when I decided to start playing Melee seriously again almost 3 months ago I will say my life has sucked ever since. Shakey relationships, No job, No money, Bumming rides....it sucks!

 

[SDC]

Some people spend to much time working, making money, Going to school/college, or eh...getting laid to improved as much as you. I mean I'll admit when I decided to start playing Melee seriously again almost 3 months ago I will say my life has sucked ever since. Shakey relationships, No job, No money, Bumming rides....it sucks!

dam. i'd hate to think what mango's life is like.....

hitching a ride on the bottom of trains....fighting for scraps at the food kitchens.....giving blowjobs for mcdonalds cheeseburgers.....paying girls to like him......literally living at wal-mart....

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Wanna know why Melee isn't 'as huge' as it used to be?

Three reasons:

1) Brawl
2) Accessibility
3) Age

First, you know how people react to the sequel phenomenon. We're like nomads moving according to hype and the fact that another Smash Bros. is coming out. People flocked to SSBB. It pretty much coasted on Melee's success and the Smash Bros. name, and is a big reason why Melee isn't as huge. Granted, that doesn't mean it's better. I still think Brawl sucks.

Secondly, let me just say that people can easily pick up Melee and get into it. No johns. I'm using accessibility in terms of being 'more accessible' or 'less accessible' than Brawl. Unfortunately, Melee is the latter. I really believe the hardcore-of-hardcore players are scaring off some of the more casual players by squawking about how technical Melee is. Look at what made SFIV successful on both the casual and competitive fronts: It has a good mix of depth and playability, and is easier to learn than, say, SFIII. Melee is more like SFIII in this aspect, being a lot more technical and harder to learn.

Lastly, I can almost guarantee that if Melee came out after Brawl, it'd totally be huge. Naturally. Melee has been kicking since 01, some people may rightfully want to play something else. A lot of folks aren't as dedicated as myself and others are to this game. We know Melee is too ****ing good, but people tend to want something new in their life. It's like cheating, you know your wife is loyal and always give you the goods, but you know your eyes be wandering from time to time. Those aren't dedicated to the relationship will cheat.

 

[Archangel]

Three reasons:

1) Brawl
2) Accessibility
3) Age

First, you know how people react to the sequel phenomenon. We're like nomads moving according to hype and the fact that another Smash Bros. is coming out. People flocked to SSBB. It pretty much coasted on Melee's success and the Smash Bros. name, and is a big reason why Melee isn't as huge. Granted, that doesn't mean it's better. I still think Brawl sucks.

Secondly, let me just say that people can easily pick up Melee and get into it. No johns. I'm using accessibility in terms of being 'more accessible' or 'less accessible' than Brawl. Unfortunately, Melee is the latter. I really believe the hardcore-of-hardcore players are scaring off some of the more casual players by squawking about how technical Melee is. Look at what made SFIV successful on both the casual and competitive fronts: It has a good mix of depth and playability, and is easier to learn than, say, SFIII. Melee is more like SFIII in this aspect, being a lot more technical and harder to learn.

Lastly, I can almost guarantee that if Melee came out after Brawl, it'd totally be huge. Naturally. Melee has been kicking since 01, some people may rightfully want to play something else. A lot of folks aren't as dedicated as myself and others are to this game. We know Melee is too ****ing good, but people tend to want something new in their life. It's like cheating, you know your wife is loyal and always give you the goods, but you know your eyes be wandering from time to time. Those aren't dedicated to the relationship will cheat.

Good analogy at the end. I lol'd so ****ing hard.

 

[Perpz]

I don't know if i believe that you've truly played it competitively if you just "put the dot on their head and pull the trigger"

Also, there's more going on than calling things out...

I prefer smash, but I'm just saying. FPS are always more popular these days because it's easier to lose on a team, and possibly some people believe it's more fun.

im breaking it down to a basic skill, thats what the game is based off of. i could dive into deep strategic nade bounces, across the map no scopes, but in the end its all putting the dot on someones head and pulling the trigger.

 

[Pi]

I been playing friendlies for years
but I still get destroyed by the good players
I lack tourney experience, I lack experience against the pro level playstyles
I'm use to people who roll, who don't wavedash, who play only 1 character
I'm use to their playstyles, and those are the playstyles I'm good against
melee is ****ing diverse, you aren't going to get where you need to be playing with the same few people over and over again, and only trying to beat them
that's not how you improve

 

[Vulcan55]

More like:
-It's a casually marketed fighter

Most fighting games are created for competition. Smash isn't. Competitive fighter players look down upon it.
Because it's a fighter, however, most casual gamers stray from it beyond anything but FFA with or without items. Most casual gamers I know (all of them) won't even touch a standard fighting game because it's "stupid" or "boring" or "gay".

 

[rehab]

Bengalz if you are reading: that was unnecessary.

 

[Samochan]

I think if there were a rookie tournament putting that money in would be very welcome cause they actually have a chance of winning a big amount of money back.

IMO smashfests don't give you the same motivation and amount of skill increase as tournaments do. I got good by never missing a tournament. I think its the fastest way to get better.

In finland, we have what we finns call kurasarja, translated to "mud/dirt tournament". We take those players who didn't make it to the main bracket from pools to their own double elimination bracket and they can compete there. With semi-big tourneys, there could be even a small prize from the pot for the winner and the players, even those with less skill level, could compete more against each other and winn some money. This event could be held after the main singles tournament or after most of the bracket has been done as to not take tv sets and cause delay.

People improve the most if they play a high level players who punish for mistakes often, but I think most high level players would rather play against equally skilled (or bit more skilled) players themselves than random noobs for more than one set, which in turn makes it so that the lower level players are unable to learn much unless they improve themselves, which can be extremely tedious and difficult. Not to mention not all have the luxury of high level players accessible for some casuals over their home outside tourneys, just so they can practice the skills learned on tournaments and polish em, then go learn new sets of skills to another one and continue the routine. It should be very helpful for any low leveled player to receive pointers from any player that plays higher than their level. If they have the motivation to practice this game, they will take this advice to heart and will eventually become good players.

I think the main thing that makes melee only as big as it is now compared to halo and friends is definitely the genre. If melee were traditional beat em up, then maybe, but it isn't. Good shooters will always gather large amount of players, because people enjoy that genre more.

 

[Cosmo!]

In finland, we have what we finns call kurasarja, translated to "mud/dirt tournament". We take those players who didn't make it to the main bracket from pools to their own double elimination bracket and they can compete there. With semi-big tourneys, there could be even a small prize from the pot for the winner and the players, even those with less skill level, could compete more against each other and winn some money. This event could be held after the main singles tournament or after most of the bracket has been done as to not take tv sets and cause delay.

This is a ****ing great idea

 

[Gamegenie222]

More like:
-It's a casually marketed fighter

Most fighting games are created for competition. Smash isn't. Competitive fighter players look down upon it.
Because it's a fighter, however, most casual gamers stray from it beyond anything but FFA with or without items. Most casual gamers I know (all of them) won't even touch a standard fighting game because it's "stupid" or "boring" or "gay".

because those causual fools are foolish, ignoarant, and stupid and only play games that are popular right now. that's why I am putting my opinion to the causual vs hardcore debate discussion and I am making a 5 part video about it on youtube and if you want to help with it go to my youtube page http://www.youtube.com/gamegenie22/ watch my introduction video on it and sent me a message responding to the video if you want to help with it.

 

[Samochan]

This is a ****ing great idea

And it certainly works within our 25-35 person tournaments. =) It has been on use for a while too, I think invented by MasterTK (I guess because of the name lol) so all credit would go to him. Even without prize this works here, but I think since most american tourneys are prolly bigger than that (and so is the prize), there could be one for this mud tourney as well. Maybe like 1-5% for the winner from singles pot, depending of the size?

 

[chaddd]

Not everyone likes a game filled with corny characters. Most hardcore gamers ridicule games like Smash.

You really narrowed it down. The same question can be asked for Brawl. But of course, Brawl is bigger than what Melee was for the obvious reasons, but let's not get into that.

Brawl is NOWHERE near what Melee was. And considering you weren't around then it's easy to decipher that you're talking out of your ***.

 

[Shadow Huan]

In finland, we have what we finns call kurasarja, translated to "mud/dirt tournament". We take those players who didn't make it to the main bracket from pools to their own double elimination bracket and they can compete there. With semi-big tourneys, there could be even a small prize from the pot for the winner and the players, even those with less skill level, could compete more against each other and winn some money. This event could be held after the main singles tournament or after most of the bracket has been done as to not take tv sets and cause delay.

Oh my God why aren't we doing this over here in America???? This is an amazing idea, since I didn't make it out of pools at my last tourny. >_> (Got stuck with people who were better than me. ALL of them.)

As for why smash isn't huge?

1: Brawl came out, and people need to re-discover Melee

2: It takes a lot of practice to compete at Melee.

And...

3: Most of the high level pros are too good. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ochFgXA7Fus

Now then, I main Marth, and I'm constantly working to improve. Believe it or not, I can follow most of what goes on in those matches, barring Taj's insane movement speed. This being said, I would loose so bad it wouldn't be funny because I haven't trained myself to react fast enough to do anything. I need to work at it. Most won't.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

For someone with no experience and average fingers (that is, the fingers of an average person, not an average Melee player)?
And tech skill isn't even the half of it.

The other half is mindgames and smart play. The technical aspects of Melee are not THAT hard to learn(except Fox).
You can still acivate special moves just like in Brawl. It's not like other fighters where you have to do a quarter circle and then the punch button or Back, Down/Back, Down, Down/Forward, Forward + Punch in order to activate special moves.


Losing every single ****ing match because everyone around you has been playing for years and you don't stand the slightest chance against them while still trying to become good at the game is much more like work than fun.

Melee's age has brought about a "skill wall" that keeps new players from coming in unless they're very determined, and most people aren't. It's very hard to get into a game where everyone around you has been playing for a long time and you have literally no chance of competing with them until you've done the same... assuming that they aren't getting better themselves.

I would like to point out that Melee's skill wall is nowhere near as high as other fighters.

If you watch this to get started, you can see it only takes a few days to get techically sound with most chaaractters.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6268917341431368191

Try to compare the skill wall of Melee to MVC, KOF, or GG and watch the big difference.

 

[Samochan]

Oh my God why aren't we doing this over here in America???? This is an amazing idea, since I didn't make it out of pools at my last tourny. >_> (Got stuck with people who were better than me. ALL of them.)

Because finnish smash community is the best. 'nuff said.

We also play falcon only teams on hyrule temple, crews where 2 captains choose a team and random teams random char random stage items on tournaments, for fun ofc. =)

But this type of tournament would really depend of the size of the tourney in question, lenght and available tv sets. I mean, 2 rounds of pools into one bracket would take longer than the actual singles main bracket lol and it would be unfair to put only round 1 or 2 poolers into the mud tourney bracket.