Why is Falcon not the best character in PAL?

[forward]

So this is a very theory heavy question, but I've thought for a long time that in the PAL version Falcon should be the best character for two main reasons.

100% Gentleman - I've always wished the NTSC version had this. Gentleman is one of Falcon's best moves but the jabs and light shields that come out, even at high levels of play, prevents it from being broken. There's also the mental block that players put on themselves because of the inconsistent gentleman. What I mean by that is that I think players would use the gentleman in more situations if they weren't afraid of messing it up and leaving themselves open. If that's true that has potential to change a lot of Falcon's metagame. Falcon mains should chime in here, how would you change your gameplay if you hit gentlemans with 100% accuracy?

Match ups rebalanced - I'm looking at the current tier list, and this is where I'd like input, especially from the EU players. It seems though that his bad match ups shouldn't be as bad as in NTSC. His worst match ups imo were Fox, Falco, and Sheik, who all got nerfs in PAL. Puff, Marth, and Peach were matches that I believed Falcon had the advantage in.

A small caveat though, as I look at the tier list I'm also reminded of how balanced melee is. The top 15 characters are all viable in tournament and even the low tiers have randomly good match ups. So being the best isn't that big of a deal in the end.

EU Falcon mains, in either case, step your game up and get your swag on. Your character is too good.

 

[Cactuar]

Falcon 2 gud iz why

Edit: My original post basically just said: The reasons Falcon loses to x characters in NTSC are basically unchanged in PAL afaik. Could someone confirm if weak knee -> knee was removed in PAL?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Falco isn't significantly different and I think the impact of the Fox differences is often overstated. I'd think Sheik the match-up would still be pretty similar, too. I'm no PAL expert, though, so I'll defer to good European players.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

What changed so its 100% gentleman?

 

[Strong Badam]

Falcon 2 gud iz why

Edit: My original post basically just said: The reasons Falcon loses to x characters in NTSC are basically unchanged in PAL afaik. Could someone confirm if weak knee -> knee was removed in PAL?

Weak knee is worse at comboing in PAL.

 

[Vincent46]

The reason why he loses to spacies and sheik are still there. It's not like NTSC falcon gets killed a lot by fox's usmash anyway, and chaingrabbing him with sheik is still easy as pie.

Also gentleman, despite being a good move, isn't broken by any means of course.

 

[Twinkles]

doesnt shiek's dthrow send people at a different trajectory though? i would think that would make a pretty big difference.

fox and falco arent too significantly nerfed, and probably still have advantage in the MU
100% gentleman sounds like it ****ing rocks tho.

 

[Xyzz]

First: CF is obviously the best character in the game (unless just winning instead of looking good while doing so is your top priority :x).
More seriously, let's have a look at the matchup changes:
- Fox:
reduced firebird length. Big deal... often he doesn't get a shot at recovery even in NTSC, since he just directly dies to knee at 70ish anyways.
reduced strength on his smashes? A) they are not thaaaat big, and B) I think the most common kills with Fox on Falcon are coming from bair / shine (shine too good).
Nothing else is changed. Fox is still a ***** and gets to do ridiculous stuff (shine).
- Sheik:
weaker upair (oh boy, that totally kills Falcon in NTSC, right? :D). I am not that sure about CF here, but at least on Fox / Falco she gains pretty cool upair combos in PAL, but she can't kill floaties that easily with it anymore.
a downthrow that actually makes sense. Well, I can't do the tech chase on reaction in PAL, but judging from what I've seen in NTSC few people are really near perfect consistency there either. (Toph? And ... uhh, nobody?)
She retains ftilt / dash attack to anything she damn well pleases, and wins the matchup with that.
- Falco:
downair changes: not even worth talking about.
And he didn't turn in his laser when converting to PAL, so he still gets to shut down CFs mobility so bad, that our hero will be hard pressed to do much against the bird. No change to NTSC I guess.

@weak knee -> knee: Not totally sure, but I think you can even DI out of weak knee -> up air at most relevant percentages.

 

[Kimimaru]

Something not mentioned so far is that Fox is lighter in PAL and will die even earlier to the knee.

 

[Strong Badam]

doesnt shiek's dthrow send people at a different trajectory though? i would think that would make a pretty big difference.

The point of her dthrow against Fox/Falco/Falcon is to force a knockdown. Despite the angle change in PAL, it still accomplishes this just fine.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Europe smash had a dark society meeting and all agreed that falcon is too manly, thus no one should develop him to godlike status lest the game grow its own nipple caps and run uncontrolled.

 

[Lovage]

the answer is:


europe sucks

 

[X17the17th]

Perhaps you should actually play on PAL version instead of thinking about it.

 

[Warhawk]

I would get a PAL version just for the easy gentleman if it weren't for Marth and Falco's dair being nerfed. Also the nerf on Ganon's fair is dumb.

 

[Ripple]

its only BKB and makes a difference of about 8% in kill potential

 

[JPOBS]

Because EU doesn't have a falcon even close to Hax/S2j level to push him.
Either of those two would probably win a EU tourny easy for free if armada wasn't present.

 

[iffy525]

Because EU doesn't have a falcon even close to Hax/S2j level to push him.
Either of those two would probably win a EU tourny easy for free if armada wasn't present.

Fuzzyness' Falcon did pretty damn good against Armada in a set I saw. Full Bo5 set.

 

[Tero.]

Fox, Sheik and Falco MU are as bad as in NTSC. Falcon still gets shined, techchased, comboed and edgeguarded for free.

 

[foshio]

^ Yeah... for spacies the reason is pretty much shine...

 

[_Rocky_]

Falcon vs Fox: PAL usmash actually seems to HELP fox in many cases as it can combo for longer. Worse recovery and lighter weight don't matter much when he should die as soon as he's offstage anyway.

vs Falco: Dair change doesn't matter much from what I've seen. PP was missing a few free edgeguards vs me when I played him at smashers reunion though so I'm guessing you'd have to adjust your timing.

vs Sheik: Dthrow techchase is now much easier to get out of via ledgecancelling etc but it's still guaranteed 0-death and the neutral game is unchanged.

vs Marth: This matchup is actually changed because Marth has a harder time gimping Falcon and his changed weight + air mobility helps Falcon combo him. I'd still say the changes are negligible at most.

Also, since you usually want to gtfo after a gentleman cancelling it with z and then buffering a roll/jump is very easy (I can do it 100% of the time on my ntsc here and I've almost never practiced it) and is almost as good as simply doing gentleman -> run away. Ofc you then miss out on gentleman -> dair and stuff but doing A -> A -> A (hold) isn't very difficult anyway.

Falcon's weak knee is also weaker and Fox can actually shine you out of weak knee -> uair which is gay. So IMO Falcon's position in PAL doesn't change much

the answer is:


europe sucks

AGREED UPON

edit: weak knee -> knee definitely doesn't work in 99% of cases in pal

 

[Jolteon]

spacies .

 

[forward]

OK so Falcon was weakened a little bit in PAL because weak knee > knee doesn't work, that's significant.

With Sheik, I'm surprised people still tech chase so easily in PAL. I thought being able to DI farther away would make a big difference since it would basically take away Sheik's advantage during a low % game.

Against Fox, I thought his lighter weight and slower falling speed would make the difference in the match. Lighter weight means Falcon could start air combos sooner and use less tech chases, which would be good because tech chases require guesses while combos are essentially guaranteed. ni

And against Falco the match up doesn't change much except for the 100% Gentleman. In NTSC I think the match up is really close, only 6/4 in Falco's favor but I think the 100% Gentleman would make the match at least even if not in Falcon's favor.

Don't sleep on that 100% Gentleman, seriously. It gives him a huge offensive boost and opens up new shield pressure, combo, and counter attacking possibilities.

 

[stelzig]

its only BKB and makes a difference of about 8% in kill potential

If you're talking about ganon's Fair here, then I believe strong_bad once said the same, until we (some PAL players who have played both versions) convinced him otherwise and actually made him test it. The difference on that move is way way bigger.

 

[King Funk]

Falcon doesn't have anything remotely close to an even matchup against spacies. The numbers might be a tiny bit different in PAL, but it doesn't really change the matchups so much.

 

[-ACE-]

100% gentleman making falco vs falcon even or in falcon's favor?

Umm...........

 

[gm jack]

Falcon is pretty much the same. The only match ups which significantly change due to the changes are Sheik vs floaties, and sheik no longer has a kill option from a grab (unless they hold in on dthrow like a noob), making those a bit harder.

Other than that, characters tend to win for the same reasons. They are well built characters, such that their whole play style doesn't really get changed because of a few alterations, other than the examples of sheik vs peach etc.

 

[Tero.]

I'd rather say Sheik vs anyone she could chaingrab and Marth vs anyone he doesnt have Free edgeguards on. In particular Peach and Sheik since he really has a way harder time killing them

 

[Dr Peepee]

That 100% gentleman changes more than you think guys.

You can get stupid combos off of it at 100+ percents. And it's solid on shield. Falcon feels a lot faster with it.

That last hit of gentleman also tends to keep Falcon safe from CCs so it's really nice close range so he doesn't have to go into his shield(less options) so much.

That said, I'm not sure if it changes his Falco matchup to his favor with the other PAL changes but I could see 55/45 and MAYYYYBE even if Falcon's metagame got pushed really far.


I could also see him beating Marth due to Marth's much harder time gimping since he loses his Dair and part of his amazing aerial mobility. Being lighter doesn't help his case when it comes to surviving knees either. That aerial mobility thing also means Marth will have that much of a harder time recovering when he's sent far offstage.


I won't comment on other matchups for now. I just wanted to speak a little bit as someone who has fought a few Falcons in PAL.

 

[Hax]

That said, I'm not sure if it changes his Falco matchup to his favor with the other PAL changes but I could see 55/45 and MAYYYYBE even if Falcon's metagame got pushed really far.

hell no

That last hit of gentleman also tends to keep Falcon safe from CCs so it's really nice close range so he doesn't have to go into his shield(less options) so much.

you don't gentleman a CC...

to my understanding this autogentleman doesn't actually allow falcon to do something entirely new, it just makes something that was already possible easier. which means it isn't THAT big of a deal, and certainly not worth giving up weak knee -> knee and weak knee -> uair for

 

[Strong Badam]

Against Fox, I thought his lighter weight and slower falling speed would make the difference in the match. Lighter weight means Falcon could start air combos sooner and use less tech chases, which would be good because tech chases require guesses while combos are essentially guaranteed.

Fox's falling speed remains unchanged.

 

[unknown522]

I'm pretty sure the changes in PAL don't effect the top characters too much, so the matchups don't change much either.

He probably still loses to the same characters that he does in NTSC (except maybe sheik?).

 

[Deleted member]

Gentlemen is possibly falcon's best move (with n-air) BUT i don't think being able to do it 100% as opposed to 90~% from good falcon players is gunna make falcon suddenly have the advantage

 

[Strong Badam]

He still loses to Sheik in PAL lol. Dunno how many times I have to say it, but tech-chasing is practically the same + Sheik's u-air is even better at juggling FFers in PAL.

 

[Deleted member]

europeans suck tho and only their lame ***** play it

 

[ajp_anton]

I don't think I've ever seen an NTSC CFalcon do a non-awkwardly timed gentleman just because it needs to be canceled. Is it even possible to cancel it *always*, or do you have to adjust your hits for it to work?

 

[darkatma]

You can perform gentleman faster in PAL than you can in NTSC. That makes a huge difference, because fast gentlemans can counter CC, whereas slow ones cannot. The NSTC gentleman relies on each animation finishing before the next one starts, which doesn't have to be the case in PAL.

 

[Strong Badam]

A A A (hold) requires no specific timing, so no, thats wrong.

 

[Ripple]

you definitely cannot just mash A 3 times and hold down A to gentleman in NTSC. you have to delay the second jab a little bit otherwise rapid jab comes out

 

[S l o X]

cort says gentlemen is falcons best move so it is his best move.

being able to do it 100% of the time + as fast as possible sounds pretty good.

 

[Strong Badam]

yes you can, Ripple. try it on an actual opponent rather than on the air where it's irrelevant.