Why do you play low tier?

[Endless Nightmares]

Here's something that's really odd to me...I've played non-high tier pretty much since day one (except for like a week when I played Falco, it was my highest tourney placing ever lol). Everyone CF and lower, but mostly low-tiers. Last month, I started practicing high tiers, especially Fox. I don't know if I've ever had this much fun just practicing Smash. I don't know if it's because I would never play them, or if it's because they're really freakin' good characters, or both, but it's pretty awesome lol.

But I'm kinda worried about using Fox or Sheik in tourney now...I start thinking to myself, what sets my Fox and Sheik apart from the 867530900 other Foxes and Sheiks that I'm gonna eventually face in tourney? These guys have been playing them for months longer than me, and everyone knows how to play against them, so I keep thinking I'm just going to get demolished. Especially if I picked Falco against a more experienced Falco who's good at dittos. The only difference, besides my lack of experience, is my very odd playstyle and weird "mindgames", which sometimes work in my favor. I tend to do a lot of odd things that throw people off lol. I'll try to go all Fox/Marth at my next tourney, lawlz

 

[greenblob]

Upper tier is in general more fun than lower tier. Upper tier characters are more mobile, can pull of ridiculous combos, have insane tricks and techniques, can get very creative with edgeguarding, etc. Most people think it's more fun to play Sheik, who can combo like crazy and has a million and one different ways to edgeguard, compared to Roy, who is mostly about keeping his feet on the ground and getting in single hits.

 

[felix45]

lol the reason the tier list looks the way it does because character potential for low tier characters peaks much faster than it does for top.

except jiggly puff. 8 year olds could go pro with that thing.

 

[Impp]

is it not implied there that low tier players have more room to improve?

Yes, it is not implied there.... Read it again, He's saying, that only a small percentage of players win tournaments, and the rest, low tier or not continue to play to improve, in spite of never winning a tournament. When he was talking about solving the game, he was saying that Smash is near impossible to perfect, so there is always room for improvement, low tier or not... He wasn't saying low tier was an advantage or anything...
I'm not going to say whether I agree with him or not, I'm just trying to explain to you what he was saying.

 

[Phyvo]

OKAY, so what you're saying is that High Tiers have less room to improve than low tier players.


cool.

No.

What I'm saying is that any improvement is what makes a game really fun competitively. Tiers, fun-wise, are very secondary to this principle. People play high tiers, people play low tiers, but in the end it's because for some reason they believe or see improvement in their skills.

One might think that low tiers have more "room for improvement", but that is untrue; you could argue that Kirby has less improvement potential than Fox because he's less technical and generally worse. One may say that people play high tiers more because there's more "room for improvement". What I'm saying is that as long as players feels that they are improving, whatever character they are using, they will continue playing.

Nothing but the feeling of sustained improvement can subsequently sustain a player and prevent him from leaving.

-----

Perhaps you got lost in my jabbering again.? Well, I could summarize it this way:
The reason why low tier players play is the same reason why anyone else plays.

Any perceived differences in actual goals (why anyone plays this game to compete) are much smaller than you currently imagine them to be.

lol the reason the tier list looks the way it does because character potential for low tier characters peaks much faster than it does for top.

except jiggly puff. 8 year olds could go pro with that thing.

Technically, true, but that doesn't change why anyone plays them. Whoever continues playing them obviously doesn't believe that he has hit that lower roof you mention (or if they do, they're planning on not playing in the future)..

 

[C@sH Mooney]

except jiggly puff. 8 year olds could go pro with that thing.

bad player is bad LOL

 

[Phyvo]

I guess I should expand what I said slightly more and say that, so long as someone feels they can/are improving, characters are a mere preference. The answer to your question might be better served by asking "Why do you feel you're improving with your character?" or "What has made your character fun at tournaments all these years?"

What I have said though is a pretty large generalization. There are also ways to have fun at tournaments unrelated to being competitive at an "improving" level. Friends, seeing the look on that one fox player's face when you beat him with kirby (doesn't matter that you were owned 50 times by other foxes)... the possibilities and variations are endless but these are what some people here have been responding with. But, remember these are not really "competitive". If somone is competing with a low tier they will do so, partially for other reasons, but *anyone* who bothers to go to a tournament and play a certain character will do so partially because they think they hope to have improved with that character.

 

[Madlobster]

so far, i figured i play a lot better, i train a lot better, i enjoy the game a lot more, when i play characters i like.

Chu Dat played IC when it was a low tier character, and i wouldn't say a fox or sheik would always take him out.
same thing goes for many other ssbm players i know

 

[Ca$hoholic]

I pick the one i want, thats that! i didnt even know it existed a tier list untill 2 days ago, always though all characters is just as good, it only depends how good your on it! and i still believe that.

Plus that fact that i suck on very fast character xP (IMO)

 

[Lecto2007]

I pick the one i want, thats that! i didnt even know it existed a tier list untill 2 days ago, always though all characters is just as good, it only depends how good your on it! and i still believe that.

Plus that fact that i suck on very fast character xP (IMO)

Pretty much as me you just pick any character and if you win with them you win, you dont need someone to make up a list to tell you who you should be and not.

 

[AAP]

I don't really play tourneys since there aren't any around where i live.....

but isn't the tier list a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.
...i mean as more players switch to high tiers to win tourney's then in turn there are more high tiers at that tourney. Skill and tiers aside if there are more foxes, falco's, marths, sheiks and peachs being played...then odds are one of them will win. I don't discredit the qualities and abilities of these characters...but to think that theres no point in competing with any other character is depressing. Having watched enough videos from tourney's i'm sick of every fox falco marth and sheik match-up. So to all the low tier players out there win or lose you're still a winner in my book for taking on the challenge and being a big enough person to have fun without winning.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

To mix it up and prevent tourneys from being a Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, and Sheik-fests.
Without us, tourneys would get old quickly. Oh BTW, even though I don't play Melee anymore, I stomped out a lot of Foxes and Falcos on the way.

 

[Johnknight1]

Tires don exits b***hes! IF someone is good enough with a character-they go up on the tiers. Also, a lot of people assume picking a high/top tier character=win. That isn't the case, you have to work for it. I've played Fox for 3 years as a secondary, and then about 11 months ago I started maining Fox. All that time using Fox, I ended out maining him, lol! I also secondary Link and Falco. Link is fun to use for me as well. I just love the moveset. I also use Roy and Ness, and they're low and bottom tiers. I love to use them, and I have fun using their unique and fun movesets. And I LOOOOVVVE to get better with them. I play whoever I want to play because their moveset ROCKS!

 

[Lecto2007]

Tires don exits b***hes! IF someone is good enough with a character-they go up on the tiers. Also, a lot of people assume picking a high/top tier character=win. That isn't the case, you have to work for it. I've played Fox for 3 years as a secondary, and then about 11 months ago I started maining Fox. All that time using Fox, I ended out maining him, lol! I also secondary Link and Falco. Link is fun to use for me as well. I just love the moveset. I also use Roy and Ness, and they're low and bottom tiers. I love to use them, and I have fun using their unique and fun movesets. And I LOOOOVVVE to get better with them. I play whoever I want to play because their moveset ROCKS!

What tiers do are just give people a first impression on other characters, Its not entirely true as bottom characters have beaten top characters it actually independantly relys on the players skill to execute the character strenghts to overcome their weaknesses.

 

[reborn394]

I enjoy playing DK most of the time now against my bro since he's a fun character to use. I also use him to prove to him that he isn't as "low-tier" as he thinks DK is. Another interesting thing to point out is that it counters his fox nicely

 

[choknater]

the game is all about matchup knowledge rather than tiers.


the higher tier characters happen to have much more matchups in their favor, which is why they are in that tier.

so yes, tiers do exist... but they exist because of the matchups and stages and tournament/pressure situations. there is far more to the tier list than what you see objectively in the characters. also, don't get caught off guard if you are ganon/samus and you get owned by a kirby. or if you play ice climbers and you are destroyed by a game and watch.

low tiers are low tier for a reason, but they do have favorable matchups. pikachu/ylink against peach, dk against fox on FD, those are common ones. but once you learn more about strange ones, for example yoshi vs doc, roy vs samus, etc... you can learn a LOT about the game's physics and become a better smasher overall.

IMO, tiers should inspire you to gain more knowledge about the game. especially if you are not a member of the SBR, because you have little to no effect in changing the tier list anyway unless you are a respected poster or a superb smasher

 

[Platypus]

One should not attack the tier list for being inaccurate. The problem with it is that it is linear, and does not display individual matchups, giving FoMFaS the lead because they have the highest number of shoe-in enemy sets. To properly display the tiers, a complex web is needed; no one who sees the tier list learns that DK counters Fox or that one should avoid fighting the Ice Climbers with Sheik.

3-D Holo-Chart!

 

[choknater]

platypus that would be sweet.

 

[Kips]

That's true, the Tier List doesn't provide a match by match analysis of each character. It only provides a good accurate view of the sum of ones basic strengths and such. Thus while a lower tier character may have a larger advantages in one area, overall the high tier character will excel in more areas. To get a good view of what your character can REALLY perform like, you have to see every character matchup and all of his strengths and disadvantages.

 

[choknater]

yeah, generally the tier list inspires a lot of ignorance and people see it as an authoritative dictation of which character is better than which. as a result, such players ignore the fact that some matchups are more favorable than others, and when they lose in such matchups they bash the tier list for not being accurate (when it was their fault already that they thought the tier list was authoritative)

so yeah. phanna's matchup chart, despite its inaccuracies, is IMO a much better representation of smash's tiers.

edit: 4400 post

 

[Super Mari0]

... >_> Man youre really puttin dem low tiers down dude
''A Fox or Sheik will always take you down''
Bull**** -.-
Sheik and Foxes play so repetetive its easy to outsmart them... no mindgames

And oh yeah....

FUMI.
Nuff' said, right?
You shouldnt give up hope like a ****** I mean THAT has no point =/ Just friggin go berserk on the repetetive High Tier *****es they always do the same crap dont they? (Most of them)

And remember when Fumi beat the hell out of Bombsoldiers Falco that was ****in awesome and thats a good example not to start turnin Emo and sayin ''*sigh* its no point.. I cant do anything.''

Just beat the hell outta the High Tier *****es like really **** EM'
And eventually they wont even accept loss >_>
But still just own em' wit yo mindgames. =D

Its actually a matter of the Control over youre character, your knowledge, your experience
And for me I dont care if im a Jigglypuff against a Marth or a Bowser against a Sheik just friggin try your best and you'll make it.
Never give up =D

 

[choknater]

And remember when Fumi beat the hell out of Bombsoldiers Falco that was ****in awesome and thats a good example not to start turnin Emo and sayin ''*sigh* its no point.. I cant do anything.''

Yes, fumi is awesome lol. But that was not bombsoldier.

 

[Kips]

Yes! It's true, Marth, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Captain Norr- erm, Falcon and Peach do not have infallibility. They are quite beatable in counterpicks and can be handled with ease with certain characters and with some characters you'll hate to have them as an enemy. Think about your matchups and skill level, not the tier list.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

fumi's always winning the tournaments apparently?

i dont remember that lol

i remember watching fumi destroy some random falco, certainly wasn't bombsoldier

 

[Del Money]

Why do I play low tier? Because low-tier is severly underrated...DK ftw

 

[felix45]

the list is just based on who wins tourneys most.

there is a reason you see fox win 100x more tourneys than pichu.


I think the most questionable tier placement character is link. everyone else is at least in the catagory that they belong. If shiek didn't chain grab link to no tomorrow I'm sure he'd be high/top more than likely.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

link is still pretty bad without being chaingrabbed by sheik lol

 

[choknater]

I think the most questionable tier placement character is link. everyone else is at least in the catagory that they belong. If shiek didn't chain grab link to no tomorrow I'm sure he'd be high/top more than likely.

He is not low tier because of Sheik.

Fox, Falcon, and Falco destroy him also. Link is easily overwhelmed by speed. He can't control the match very well against anyone.

Plus he doesn't really have any gimping capabilities either. Link's cool, but he's not cheap enough to go up in the tiers, lol.

 

[Kips]

Yeah, his range can be offset by others speed and his projectiles tend to move slow as well. I think the only slower projectiles are Peach's turnips, right?

 

[felix45]

I wouldn't get too cockey guys, link has a lot of safe moves despite his overall speed disadvantage.

El Lovo was beating forward's fox in tournament, forward only won the set because he went shiek and chaingrabbed the hell out of him. if you have good enough mixups and know what moves are safe with link, you can easily compete with a fox, falco, or captain falcon.

also link has a gimp move, works well on small levels. upb ftw haha.

sheik on the other hand....lol 1 grab = death for link.

 

[GenoBlast]

This is a stupid question......
Playing this game, regardless of weather its competitive or casual play, both involve the same overall goal. The game is designed to be fun, and I'm sure people are tired of seeing, and playing the same 4 characters at every tournament they go to, I know I am.

One of the reasons smash is such a good game is because of the diversity of all the different characters. All of the characters have unique play styles and people often choose a character based on their own personal preference. Often the high tier characters gain there rank due to how much easier it is to play as them.
Ness for example can do some crazy stuff that you cant DI out of but Ness (in my opinion)is one of the hardest characters to play. Shiek on the other can do things that are equally effective as Ness but they are MUCH more efficient and easier to do, such as almost any of shiek's attacks-->fair.....

It is much more challenging to play as low tier, more interesting and at times, advantages. Ylink is considered a Peach counter, Pikachu a Falcon counter and even a good DK can do some crazy stuff to space animals if he just gets 1 grab in. But aside from all my chatting it really just comes down to having fun. The more characters the merrier.

 

[choknater]

Johns

Even though they are johns, I still agree with you that the more diverse the better. Bowser is a d*mn fun character and I am maining him in brawl.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

just throwing this out there, i think this is widely accepted and all that, but i figure i have to say it.

luigi and dk are not low tier or anything close to it.

thank you for reading.

 

[otg]

If the aren't low tier where do they belong? Luigi maybe, but DK?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

luigi belongs up with like jigglypuff and dk probably about where ganon is

 

[Pink Reaper]

but then would you move gannon down to low tier?

 

[cubaisdeath]

even then, I think jiggs could stand to be moved up a little bit. but I agree with luigi and DK being at least mid tier.

 

[GenoBlast]

just throwing this out there, i think this is widely accepted and all that, but i figure i have to say it.

luigi and dk are not low tier or anything close to it.

thank you for reading.

I agree that Luigi should be higher, maybe DK too. I play a lot of Luigi and when hes on the stage he could probably be considered high tier. Off the edge though while hes trying to recover, hes horrible. I think that averages out to being at about the top of the low tier list. But anyway I believe this discussion is about the actual tier list and where the characters stand on it currently. Not so much about our decisions on their placement.

Also, id like to know how my earlier post is a john... I don't think I complained about anything in that post, or at least maybe it was miscommunicated to the rest of you. I was simply explaining that low tiers can compete its just harder for them.

 

[felix45]

I used to main luigi. this is what I found after maining him for a year:

luigi sux.


end of story!

 

[Endless Nightmares]

The best option would just be to extend Middle Tier two spots and put Luigi and DK there. And maybe add an Upper Tier so Middle Tier wouldn't be so big.