Why do you, personally, play a high-/top-tier?

[Blu]

They are all high tier mains, probably didn't even go low tier during tournament anyway.

So they don't count

You missed the whole first part of what I said. There's more than one reason why a character might be considered low tier.

But whatever. Words can't win this debate.

 

[odinNJ]

Like low teers rite gois hurr durr low tiers are stoopid they r dun wins..!>..1!>

(sarcasm)

 

[Blu]

That's right. ;]

 

[Twinkles]

right guys, tiers are total bull ****, low tiers are just as viable as any of those dumb ****ing high tier characters and have just as many of those stupid options, **** the tier list **** the mbr **** people who say roy isnt a good character, they should all die in a pit like the *****es they are

****

 

[Blu]

LOL! Low tiers indeed suck. That, however, is based upon the assumption that they're actually low tiers. But I digress.

So who wins, the Fox in first at the national, or the Kirby in second? It's all subjective.

 

[Twinkles]

well, fox got first place, so...
hurr durr

=P

 

[Spyro]

Corret me if I'm wrong but there has never been a Fox who has won a national tourament, but that's cause Fox is hard to play, not anything to do viability.

 

[Blu]

Hard to play? Hmm... Interesting.

 

[Twinkles]

i thought we were discussing why we like low tier chars or high tier chars, not whether current tier placements are legitimate or not lol

 

[Blu]

Yep! You're right (even thought the thread's title may be misleading).

Scramble onward.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Except for link, mario, and a couple others the lower tiers just dont feel right in my hands.

 

[odinNJ]

I wasn't making fun of tiers. I was making fun of when people say that low tiers will never win anything.

 

[FoxLisk]

Corret me if I'm wrong but there has never been a Fox who has won a national tourament, but that's cause Fox is hard to play, not anything to do viability.

you're wrong - DGTDJ is a good counterexample.

 

[Warhawk]

Corret me if I'm wrong but there has never been a Fox who has won a national tourament, but that's cause Fox is hard to play, not anything to do viability.

Pretty sure Jman has won a national tournament before and even if he hadn't you really couldn't justify Fox not winning a national tournament because he's hard to play. There's been so many good Fox players throughout the history of smash that it would be hard to argue that none of them ever hit what was considered top level Fox play in their time period because of Fox's difficulty. I guess you could argue for difficulty in achieving consistent top Fox play but arguing that no one has ever been able to win with him because he's difficult implies that no one has ever reached top level play with him which is not the case. Arguments for Fox's lack of winning such as Fox being less viable and dominant than perceived or there being better players representing other characters seems stronger than his difficulty in mastery.


This thread seems to have been sent back in time to when arguments of whether tiers mattered and how large of an impact tier placement had on character's abilities to win ran rampant across the internet lol.

 

[Blu]

I guess you could argue for difficulty in achieving consistent top Fox play but arguing that no one has ever been able to win with him because he's difficult implies that no one has ever reached top level play with him which is not the case and arguments for Fox not winning because of Fox being less viable than perceived and there being better players representing other characters seems stronger than his difficulty in mastery.

Oh dear god, the run-ons.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I don't see a low tier main making it into bracket at Apex.

I almost did! And I betchu I will next year. ;] As long as Amsah doesn't kick the Deku nuts out of me in pools.

Anyway, that's because so few people like to play low tiers.
Character popularity in tournaments (data from ssbpd.com):

Fox: 282
Falco: 240

^^About 30% of ALL players use either Fox or Falco.

Sheik: 194
Marth: 184
Peach: 179
Captain Falcon: 165

^^About 70% of ALL players use one of the six above characters - less than 1/4 of the cast.

Jigglypuff: 85
Ganondorf: 79
Samus: 76

^^About 82% of ALL players use one of the nine above characters.

Ice Climbers: 49
Dr. Mario: 46
Luigi: 43

^^About 90% of ALL players use one of the above twelve characters - less than half the cast.

Link: 30

Pikachu: 20
Yoshi: 20
Mario: 18
Zelda: 18

Donkey Kong: 13
Ness: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 11
Young Link: 10

Roy: 8
Kirby: 8
Bowser: 6
Mewtwo: 4
Pichu: 4


The more players interested in a character, the more likely there is to be an "outlier" who places very well (eg. Axe with Pikachu, Shroomed with Doc). If low tiers were more popular, we would certainly be seeing more of them doing well in tournaments.

 

[Spyro]

I remember V3ctorman making it out of pools at Pound V

 

[odinNJ]

Hey guys, hey hey guys, does this mean I am considered a top ten active roy

 

[Bl@ckChris]

sup ie.

i gots ur deku nuts tooooooo

lol at that triforce pool.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I almost did! And I betchu I will next year. ;] As long as Amsah doesn't kick the Deku nuts out of me in pools.

Anyway, that's because so few people like to play low tiers.
Character popularity in tournaments (data from ssbpd.com):

Fox: 282
Falco: 240

^^About 30% of ALL players use either Fox or Falco.

Sheik: 194
Marth: 184
Peach: 179
Captain Falcon: 165

^^About 70% of ALL players use one of the six above characters - less than 1/4 of the cast.

Jigglypuff: 85
Ganondorf: 79
Samus: 76

^^About 82% of ALL players use one of the nine above characters.

Ice Climbers: 49
Dr. Mario: 46
Luigi: 43

^^About 90% of ALL players use one of the above twelve characters - less than half the cast.

Link: 30

Pikachu: 20
Yoshi: 20
Mario: 18
Zelda: 18

Donkey Kong: 13
Ness: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 11
Young Link: 10

Roy: 8
Kirby: 8
Bowser: 6
Mewtwo: 4
Pichu: 4


The more players interested in a character, the more likely there is to be an "outlier" who places very well (eg. Axe with Pikachu, Shroomed with Doc). If low tiers were more popular, we would certainly be seeing more of them doing well in tournaments.

I agree, that the lower and mid tier characters don't get enough attention and could be improved, but I think that we have gotten to the point in the metagame that Higher tier players will still always win over low tier players at pro level Melee.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I almost did! And I betchu I will next year. ;] As long as Amsah doesn't kick the Deku nuts out of me in pools.

Anyway, that's because so few people like to play low tiers.
Character popularity in tournaments (data from ssbpd.com):

Fox: 282
Falco: 240

^^About 30% of ALL players use either Fox or Falco.

Sheik: 194
Marth: 184
Peach: 179
Captain Falcon: 165

^^About 70% of ALL players use one of the six above characters - less than 1/4 of the cast.

Jigglypuff: 85
Ganondorf: 79
Samus: 76

^^About 82% of ALL players use one of the nine above characters.

Ice Climbers: 49
Dr. Mario: 46
Luigi: 43

^^About 90% of ALL players use one of the above twelve characters - less than half the cast.

Link: 30

Pikachu: 20
Yoshi: 20
Mario: 18
Zelda: 18

Donkey Kong: 13
Ness: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 11
Young Link: 10

Roy: 8
Kirby: 8
Bowser: 6
Mewtwo: 4
Pichu: 4


The more players interested in a character, the more likely there is to be an "outlier" who places very well (eg. Axe with Pikachu, Shroomed with Doc). If low tiers were more popular, we would certainly be seeing more of them doing well in tournaments.

You have to keep in mind that ssbpd doesn't account for secondaries.

Here's an Example:
Mewtwo

DarkDragoon - 1158
Axioule - 1142
CJF - 1135
BlackGold - 1130
MookieRah - 1061

Notice the distinct lack of Taj?

 

[Dan Salvato]

You have to keep in mind that ssbpd doesn't account for secondaries.

Here's an Example:
Mewtwo

DarkDragoon - 1158
Axioule - 1142
CJF - 1135
BlackGold - 1130
MookieRah - 1061

Notice the distinct lack of Taj?

Correct, but the numbers are still useful as a general statistic, and I would say the sample size is large enough to be quite accurate.

sup ie.

i gots ur deku nuts tooooooo

lol at that triforce pool.

Next time we meet face to face, imma wreck that Ganon.

 

[zyth]

because Peachs down smash is broken

 

[Strong Badam]

Falco players are all frauds

 

[Bl@ckChris]

lol okay ie. i wish i could make it up for zenith, but i dont think i'll be able to. i'd like to give you another shot at beating ganons back air.

 

[LLDL]

Falco players are all frauds

MM my DK with your falco.

 

[john!]

but then he won't have low tier johns...

 

[LLDL]

Precisel y

 

[TheSaintKai]

In Brawl, playing the Ice Climbers reduces the stupidity of this game to a battle of mistakes.
At the top level of play, if I make a mistake, I lose Nana, she dies, and I become an E-tier ish character, incapable of doing much outside of hard reads. However, if my opponent makes a mistake, they lose a stock.
I enjoy that.

I also enjoy that my practice into the Ice Climbers (having a fair bit of tech skill involved, for brawl at least) is DIRECTLY shown in the game. If I don't practice my chain grabs, I'll drop them and lose. If I do, I only need three grabs.

It's just fun for me. d:

 

[unknown522]

fox is cool.

 

[Krynxe]

puff is cute

 

[blindhobo]

becuz of SUPAwavedash

but i've been thinking of switching back to fox because i'm a furry


EDIT: oh lmao i just realized the topic title said high tier

 

[V3ctorMan]

I remember V3ctorman making it out of pools at Pound V

Yay! <3 someone remembers me and thinks i'm still good...

Spoiler

because apparently im washed up.

Like really am I? just because I don't post videos? *sniff* *Sigh*

 

[Krynxe]

You're the best vectorman.

 

[Blu]

Yoshi mains have a lot of work to do, but I wouldn't say you're washed up Vman. =]

 

[odinNJ]

Vmans got a nice Roy too

 

[Bing]

Vman's pulling a Mango, Sandbagging like a boss then going to get top 3 at <insert major national here>.

Also about the Elo system. Currently has AesirGod as #1 Pichu with a 2-4 record. Second place is Nicknyte at 20-36 or something like that.
btw BlackGold how do you have such a high score considering you've never won a set?

 

[Remzi]

I play whichever character I enjoy the most; Marth happens to be a great character in both Smash Bros games he's featured in and thats awesome/preferred. My mains in most other fighting games tend to be pretty sh***y; but I think the more I understand a game, the more I gravitate towards the better characters, because good characters are typically fun to play (more versatile, success=fun, etc).

 

[bubbaking]

There is a surprising number of people who play to win... :/

 

[Tee ay eye]

i play a high tier because i don't want to play a low tier.

i'm in the "play to win" camp in the sense that i don't want to be limited by my character, but i'm also on the other end of the spectrum in the sense that i don't want to use a "stupid" character and i wouldn't use a character unless i really liked them. (back in early 08 - late 09, i was a fox/falco player, and the only reason i beat anyone was because i had tech skill, so i took drastic measures and quit them altogether as tourney picks and switched to marth so i could force myself to play with stronger fundamentals and less fraudulence)

why i don't want to play a low tier:

-they're mostly boring as **** to play against

-they're frustrating to play as

-i don't want to be limited by my character. i don't choose high tier because of their strengths, but more because they have less hard limitations, and therefore, a much higher skill ceiling. there's a difference between picking a high tier because they can do good things and picking a high tier because they don't have massive flaws. sure, there's probably a lot of undiscovered territory with the low tier characters (e.g. axe pushing pikachu's metagame further than anyone had imagined), but i don't want to take the risk and be that guy. i'd rather use a character i KNOW i can get good with.

-i absolutely despise gimmicks. i respect low tier players that are able to tough out the storm and legitimately fight (and win) against people who know how to fight their character (e.g. axe, wobbles, taj, hugs, etc), but i revile the idea of relying on/hoping for your opponents to simply fight your character the completely wrong way because it's sorta dirty and because it's so unreliable. if people figure out how to exploit your character flaws, what do you do? if fox exploits all of marth's character flaws, then it's a 50/50 (or 60/40, who cares) matchup. if fox exploits all of... zelda's character flaws, then it's at least 70/30. i would rather be able to rely on being able to play an even matchup (using a high tier character) than to toss a coin between capitalizing hard off my opponent's lack of (what should be) common-knowledge and a steep up-hill battle. sure, high tier characters can also win by gimmick because some people are just going to be bad at some matchups (e.g. me beating S2J), but it's much less common, making it less of a factor that you can rely on.