Wavedash Master
Smash Journeyman
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Does it matter? You can get all theoretical about this, but it's basically saying that you shouldn't use Ganon unless your opponent doesn't know how to use Ice Climbers.
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Why do we NOT ban Ice Climber Chain Grabs?
- Thread starter LanceStern
- Start date
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takeurlife2
Smash Ace
arent you the same kid that said "cheap" earlier?? lololololololol
you do realize you can do stupid things with the frame advantage from a powershield right? i mean, you arent stupid right? hell, ike can fsmash marth with the frame advantage from a pshielded tipper fsmash.
please let me know if you are actually ********, i will stop out of pity
okay, Ill go to the guy, who wants to give me a job, Ill take my gun and say him: give me the job or your death. best tactic do you agree? is it allowed?
same for basketball, I could just take anything to knock my enemies out and easily win the game, man, Im so great
huh? knocking your enemies out at basketball isnt allowed/is "banned"?
oh wait ...
(I just wanted to prove how stupid this argument is, this post has nothing to do with the ban itself)
In theory the IC player can just shield DI and always grab you.
In practice there are a lot of moves which even if you space them got a lot of landing lag so that they can be grabbed.
Even if you can attack their shield it wont really hurt the ICs. In general the grab was the thing, which was the only good option vs. shield, but you cant grab ICs without getting in a high risk of getting grabbed.
M2K ***** ICs, because with the tornado he found another way to deal with the shield. But he noticed that ICs got a way against it (neutral B to grab). Thats why he thinks that ICs **** MK, if the MK doesnt stall them out.
dainbramage
Smash Journeyman
What is this I don't even
Here's a better comparison.
Punching people in basketball is like punching your opponent IRL
The movement rules are like your character having a jab, 3 tilts, 3 smashes, 5 aerials and 4 special moves.
Getting the ball through the hoop is like KOing your opponent
Having 5 players on the court is like having 4 stocks
Banning the cg is like banning zone defence.
Alternatively; pulling a gun on a potential boss sure as hell won't get you a job. It WILL probably land you in prison for a while.
1048576 had a perfectly valid point.
Gnes
Smash Master
Wow takeyocat...u got to do better than this.
Firstly, it's too many moves that are safe on shield against ice climbers, and good portion of those are safe upon PS. Some even discourage it. I think ur overestimating the frame advantage given by PS'ing.
If u didn't get grabbed by the ice climbers and still lost, u need to evaluate your strategy because something is horribly wrong.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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From what I've been seeing and hearing, pivot grabbing>power shielding for Ice Climbers.
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
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- 3,417
You're illiterate. ill try talk in ur language, k? If you tried using moves that aren't laggy as sin, maybe you wouldn't be *****ing about people using tiny grabs against you. Just try it.
Also, if you could read, you'd realize I was in favor of being cheap. Cheap does exist. It's basically efficiency.Also, to the other idiot: I'm pretty sure the reason shooting someone is banned isn't cause it's cheap. Lol.
Greward
Smash Lord
ICs chaingrabs would be banned / limited when IC player start to dominate tourneys. Nowadays they dont.
takeurlife2
Smash Ace
who's *****ing kid? i stated my opinion on the matter and you made an "lol ur dum" response with no valid argument at all.You're illiterate. ill try talk in ur language, k? If you tried using moves that aren't laggy as sin, maybe you wouldn't be *****ing about people using tiny grabs against you. Just try it.
Also, to the other idiot: I'm pretty sure the reason shooting someone is banned isn't cause it's cheap. Lol.
bad grab range can be overcome in many different ways. "use moves that arent laggy"? Are you serious? Are MK's tilts laggy? Is his Dair laggy? Is marth's fair or dtilt laggy? It's called powershielding or hell, even just shielding gives you the advantage on block and can land a grab.
tl/dr: you will get grabbed.
You basically just restated what you have heard everyone else say but with no real argument to back it up.
gnes, stfu and just watch my toon link
Oh just play Peach, noobs.
GrapedICs.
GrapedICs.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Allrighty, the real reason IMO the IC's CG isn't banned is very simple:
simply hitting Nana once, then grabbing Popo means that you have separated them. now if one grabs you, the other should be in no position to re-grab to start shenanigans. From there, they need to either release you, or throw you as they have really nothing better to do until their partner returns.
Simply racking an extra few % insures that one of them goes a different distance, use that to your advantage if you get a hit in. It's even better in the Air as nana is a ******, and usually doesn't DI well if the IC player focuses on popo for the moment.
(another thing to capitalize: Not only is Nana dumb, but the IC player needs to focus on two characters getting together if you separate, and not necessarily on grabbing you to start shenanigans)
Simply playing smart against the ICs and abusing the weakness of separating them (eliminates their recovery, Grab shenanigans, and makes IC player lose a bit of focus as they try to get Nana/popo back together) should allow you to beat them, and prevent a CG.
Remember, you only get CG'ed by them if you let them do it to you.
Now to go off an a bit of a tangent here but, if any CG should be looked at for banning...it's DDD's.
When you think about it, it doesn't necessarily follow the criteria for ban in the traditional sense we use here on SWF, seeing as DDD doesn't technically dominate with it alone, but he does however control the metagame with that one move.
-DDD's CG is the basis for many stages being banned (other chars have CG's that work on the stages, but they are all either preventable, or escapable after x%)
-You honestly can't play "don't get grabbed" with a DDD, their grab is too fast and too far-reaching to simply not get caught by. Hell, even our best players cannot avoid this, ad they're the guys who supposedly "don't get grabbed".
-DDD's dthrow alone shuts down characters. The poster-boy for this of course is Donkey Kong, DK can pretty much go toe to toe with the entire cast, but gets stopped cold and thus made essentially unviable due to one character's Dthrow. I don't care what you say about other chars, or other MU's, that is ********. If his Dthow CG were at the least limited, about 7 characters would become viable (especially DK) and several stages would come out of banned mode, or at least into CP.
-DDD's metagame essentially revolves around the CG. He does have other col things to offer like his minions (Laser one can lead to shenanigans) and Bair walls, but what keeps him so high is that Grab of his. If you take a look at his MU's, the only characters he loses to either cannot be CGed (IC's, Pikachu), can simply avoid the CG by preventing DDD from getting close (Falco, MK) or have an even gayer grab (olimar). That alone sounds fishy, if his only bad MUs are the ones where he doesn't have something to exploit, what does that say about his Good ones?
TL;DR
IC's CG isn't bannable because it is not only avoidable, but preventable with smart playing.
DDD's CG is the real one to be worried about, he scews the metagame even more than MetaGame Knight just by having a Dthrow.
IT IS PREVENTABLE
simply hitting Nana once, then grabbing Popo means that you have separated them. now if one grabs you, the other should be in no position to re-grab to start shenanigans. From there, they need to either release you, or throw you as they have really nothing better to do until their partner returns.
Simply racking an extra few % insures that one of them goes a different distance, use that to your advantage if you get a hit in. It's even better in the Air as nana is a ******, and usually doesn't DI well if the IC player focuses on popo for the moment.
(another thing to capitalize: Not only is Nana dumb, but the IC player needs to focus on two characters getting together if you separate, and not necessarily on grabbing you to start shenanigans)
Simply playing smart against the ICs and abusing the weakness of separating them (eliminates their recovery, Grab shenanigans, and makes IC player lose a bit of focus as they try to get Nana/popo back together) should allow you to beat them, and prevent a CG.
Remember, you only get CG'ed by them if you let them do it to you.
Now to go off an a bit of a tangent here but, if any CG should be looked at for banning...it's DDD's.
When you think about it, it doesn't necessarily follow the criteria for ban in the traditional sense we use here on SWF, seeing as DDD doesn't technically dominate with it alone, but he does however control the metagame with that one move.
-DDD's CG is the basis for many stages being banned (other chars have CG's that work on the stages, but they are all either preventable, or escapable after x%)
-You honestly can't play "don't get grabbed" with a DDD, their grab is too fast and too far-reaching to simply not get caught by. Hell, even our best players cannot avoid this, ad they're the guys who supposedly "don't get grabbed".
-DDD's dthrow alone shuts down characters. The poster-boy for this of course is Donkey Kong, DK can pretty much go toe to toe with the entire cast, but gets stopped cold and thus made essentially unviable due to one character's Dthrow. I don't care what you say about other chars, or other MU's, that is ********. If his Dthow CG were at the least limited, about 7 characters would become viable (especially DK) and several stages would come out of banned mode, or at least into CP.
-DDD's metagame essentially revolves around the CG. He does have other col things to offer like his minions (Laser one can lead to shenanigans) and Bair walls, but what keeps him so high is that Grab of his. If you take a look at his MU's, the only characters he loses to either cannot be CGed (IC's, Pikachu), can simply avoid the CG by preventing DDD from getting close (Falco, MK) or have an even gayer grab (olimar). That alone sounds fishy, if his only bad MUs are the ones where he doesn't have something to exploit, what does that say about his Good ones?
TL;DR
IC's CG isn't bannable because it is not only avoidable, but preventable with smart playing.
DDD's CG is the real one to be worried about, he scews the metagame even more than Meta
takeurlife2
Smash Ace
praxis, when you coming back to my house?
<3
Next time I'm in Texas!
Next time I'm in Texas!
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
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- 3,417
So did I not make an argument, or did I rehash someone else's?
Way to contradict yourself in one post.
Given that, I shouldn't even need to look at the rest, but whatever. How are you going to grab MK after a perfectly spaced f-tilt? Show me a vid or something. Right now I'm thinking, you can't.
I agree if you attack right in front of both IC's together and they can inifnite, you'll prolly lose. I think we both agree that's not broken though.
Shield DI. (but since nobody can effectively use this)
A roll behind the MK FTilt at the right moment will also do this.
And ICs can easily deal with the ftilt with their other attacks. (down B)
Seriously, FTilt is one of MKs worst and unsafest moves against ICs.
A roll behind the MK FTilt at the right moment will also do this.
And ICs can easily deal with the ftilt with their other attacks. (down B)
Seriously, FTilt is one of MKs worst and unsafest moves against ICs.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I love playing Peach vs IC. <3
JOE!
Smash Hero
why did i even make that big post on the last page? nobody seemed to even bother with it XD
D
Deleted member
Guest
If you're going to give us your opinion, at least be honest about it.
JOE!
Smash Hero
hey...i was honest, and that works too: Seperate nana off stage-> edge hog 
If it was that easy to seperate them + killing Nana afterwards without Pepe helping her to get back.hey...i was honest, and that works too: Seperate nana off stage-> edge hog
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Why is this thread still open? Seriously...
solecalibur
Smash Master
because some people have some input and yet anyone against it other then a handful troll them like the post above....
There are some IC's grabs are broken /thread comments going on but people from the other side seem to be doing it more
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
because of snake?
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Because C. Falcon said so.
I think we could get by by simply banning every character... lets show some restraint.
JOE!
Smash Hero
why are you in the brawl forum then?
anywho:
it is rather easy with alot of people's Dthrows, such as Diddy's, Wolf's and Yoshi's as they leave the ground performing it, making a quick grab (1st throught by an IC) pretty much impossible as you are airborne for a second.
The point I am trying to make is that if you focus on damaging one of them, and just try to seperate, it is alot easier to beat them.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
A roll behind beats almost ANY move.
That's a terrible argument.
MK's Ftilt is 3 frames.
Has greater range than Marth's Ftilt.
Really, its a good move to space with, under no circumstance should the opponent roll dodge behind yo so easily.
solecalibur
Smash Master
I am getting a little tired of people being very closed minded about things like this as we have banned stages before but never characters or something that people base there whole character off of. Come to think of it if something was banable and it isnt banned wouldn't you think you'd base your whole moveset to get to this banned tech?
Getting off my point I find it also annoying that people think brawl is "dying" and that it will be not as good as melee .... I don't give two ****s about melee's life span and how its "nothing compared to brawl" have you realized everyone's expectations for this game was over the roof and you thought that the game was going to be exactly like it (with the glitches from melee) but better (I.E. more characters) The title is different you know and its a whole other game it isn't based off of glitches but more match-ups and what to do vs a certain character.
Hows this have to do with this topic? Because Brawl isn't melee we don't care what people in melee did to play there game (ban this or accept this or that). IC's were made to chain grab as there are so many ways to desync and dont quote me on this but if you start a match and hold B before it starts doesn't the IC's desync? The thing is they tried to "nerf" ICs so it wouldn't be a 0% to death CG but it seemed unsuccessful as we created a topic because of it. Maybe there intention was to have CG but only get SOME free damage and not take an entire stock away if you get grabbed once
.... there I spent more then 5 mintues on a post
go ahead and make a fancy one liner and contradict me
I'll match you with the same intelligence level if you want to play that way
cloudenvy112
Smash Apprentice
I completely agree. I always here "Brawl sucks" or "No combos in Brawl" when in fact there are combos and Brawl's turnout was one of the most anticipated. Melee players always "go back to Melee" because they can't get with the times. Brawl can be just as good as Melee and that needs to be accepted. I can understand banning stages but not banning characters or their moves. Banning ICs chaingrabs and combos is like banning MK's Tornado, impossible. People use moves to their advantage and, even if it's cheap, must be accepted simply due to the creators' wills in giving the character the move.
Dragoomba
Smash Lord
Question: What would the top of the Ice Climber's metagame really look like with no chaingrabbing?
1048576
Smash Master
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Oh god, another idiot who thinks melee's metagame is based on glitches.
Name two glitches you see used regularly. I can only think of one: Samus's SWD, and I only know of one Samus player who uses it more than like once a set.
Not gonna start the debate on which game is better, but if you're gonna voice an opinion, at least have some idea of what you're talking about.
Name two glitches you see used regularly. I can only think of one: Samus's SWD, and I only know of one Samus player who uses it more than like once a set.
Not gonna start the debate on which game is better, but if you're gonna voice an opinion, at least have some idea of what you're talking about.
X-Elipzo-X
Smash Rookie
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It just takes alot of skill and timing to pull off a chaingrab with IC over and over and over again, But im sure it will be dealt with and removed from legal play if too many people figure it out and everyone starts using it.
(Like that brokenarse Meta-Knight.)
(Like that brokenarse Meta-Knight.)
Because everyone is posting, I might as well, too.
The IC CG's should not be banned, imo, because Nana is so unbelievably ******** and the rest of the IC's moveset is garbage with the CG missing. Anyone dedicated enough can learn it. People fly across the country for this game. I think most people don't feel like spending weeks perfecting one technique, while everyone else exploit Nana's PS lag with relatively little practice.
The IC CG's should not be banned, imo, because Nana is so unbelievably ******** and the rest of the IC's moveset is garbage with the CG missing. Anyone dedicated enough can learn it. People fly across the country for this game. I think most people don't feel like spending weeks perfecting one technique, while everyone else exploit Nana's PS lag with relatively little practice.
Naraku
Smash Cadet
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I think any and all arguments (which are mainly arguments built on previous arguments from previous debates) have been iterated and reiterated enough here.
I'm sure many of you are happy enough to debate the place Ice Climber's chaingrabs have in the metagame, but I'm sure you don't need to/nor would want to repeat yourself over and over.
For the record, I have a fairly strong opinion too and that it's too difficult a thing to ban, so why bother debating it? Just get on with it I say.
EDIT:
That's not to say you're not allowed to debate this, but this was getting congested with spam/offtopicness as well.
If you believe you have a relatively undiscussed, fresh persepctive, I would reccomend getting moderator approval before remaking a thread of this nature.
Cheers fellas.
I'm sure many of you are happy enough to debate the place Ice Climber's chaingrabs have in the metagame, but I'm sure you don't need to/nor would want to repeat yourself over and over.
For the record, I have a fairly strong opinion too and that it's too difficult a thing to ban, so why bother debating it? Just get on with it I say.
EDIT:
That's not to say you're not allowed to debate this, but this was getting congested with spam/offtopicness as well.
If you believe you have a relatively undiscussed, fresh persepctive, I would reccomend getting moderator approval before remaking a thread of this nature.
Cheers fellas.
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