Why Banning Tripping Should be Considered at Most National/Regional Brawl Tournaments

[Jack Kieser]

Man, beast Olimar. I wish I played Olimar like that.

...oh, wait, was there a point to that? Because I thought we already established that tripping sucks when it happens to you. I wasn't aware that every match was being decided solely on the basis of trips costing people stocks every time they happen.

@ G-o-M-R: Dude, at least try to read my posts. I've explained at least 2 times why using Ocarina hacks are not like the GG precedent from a legal standpoint. They aren't the same, and I didn't assert that they were. Ever. In any post. So, where are you pulling that from? (It's "Kieser", btw; I understand it's not a typical spelling, but it's not like it isn't displayed on the screen or anything. )

 

[Jon Farron]

Beleieve it or not tripping has actually saved me a few times.
id be running, then randomly trip right before someone does a smash on me and then they miss and i punish haha.

 

[Judo777]

Ill tell u a great reason not to hack a wii. Oh darn disc read error its ok i can pay like 80 bucks to get it fixed! Oh crap i forgot i hacked my wii! Now my wii is completely useless cause they refuse to fix it.

 

[Masmasher@]

I can understand legally why getting rid of tripping is wrong.
Competively i cannot... it should be banned. legal issues should really be the only reason why this is not banned.
You cant deflect the possiblity of this happening in a tournament match.
Stop trying to compare it to character moves that have random propertie. YOU INITIALIZE THE ATTACK.
You have a choice.

 

[GHNeko]

Ill tell u a great reason not to hack a wii. Oh darn disc read error its ok i can pay like 80 bucks to get it fixed! Oh crap i forgot i hacked my wii! Now my wii is completely useless cause they refuse to fix it.

This post has killed my kitten.


1. You dont need to install homebrew for no tripping, just like to throw that out there.

2. Hacking your console only voids warranty.

3. Nintendo repairs hacked consoles. :|

 

[Jack Kieser]

This post has killed my kitten.

1. You don't need to install homebrew for no tripping, just like to throw that out there.

Correct. Technically, thanks to Smash Stack, you never have to install homebrew to run any custom content, be it games, code, or whatever.

2. Hacking your console only voids warranty.

Well, immediately. According to the EULA, a lot more is possible. For instance, if Nintendo detects homebrew on your console, they can choose to permanently brick your system.

3. Nintendo repairs hacked consoles. :|

At a significantly heightened price. People on homebrew forums have reported being forced to pay up to 200$ to fix a console that has had homebrew on it (deleted homebrew included).

 

[Veril]

Ill tell u a great reason not to hack a wii. Oh darn disc read error its ok i can pay like 80 bucks to get it fixed! Oh crap i forgot i hacked my wii! Now my wii is completely useless cause they refuse to fix it.

I had this happen, got a third party repair place to do it. It was 70$ and they were really fast and I had absolutely no issues with the wii. I could have just used a usb-loader >.<

Either way your point is invalid ;p

At a significantly heightened price. People on homebrew forums have reported being forced to pay up to 200$ to fix a console that has had homebrew on it (deleted homebrew included).

Lol. See above.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, immediately. According to the EULA, a lot more is possible. For instance, if Nintendo detects homebrew on your console, they can choose to permanently brick your system.

Common Case Scenario ie What happens 90% of the time (thus far, it's 100% based of reports because there have been no reports of intentional bricks due to homebrew.)

At a significantly heightened price. People on homebrew forums have reported being forced to pay up to 200$ to fix a console that has had homebrew on it (deleted homebrew included).

There have been reports of homebrew'd consoles not having to pay more than a standard price either. So it's both ways. Also I was just making a general statement with no regards to price.

Stop responding to me because this thread is dumb. :V

EDIT: And like Veril said, 3rd party repair places.

 

[Jon Farron]

At a significantly heightened price. People on homebrew forums have reported being forced to pay up to 200$ to fix a console that has had homebrew on it (deleted homebrew included).

Wow.... that is so retarted O_o what is N's problem with having a little extra fun?

 

[Jack Kieser]

I had this happen, got a third party repair place to do it. It was 70$ and they were really fast and I had absolutely no issues with the wii. I could have just used a usb-loader >.<

Either way your point is invalid ;p

It's nice that those places exist, otherwise homebrewers would really be screwed if something went wrong. Probably the only thing a 3rd party wouldn't be able to fix is a brick... but that's why you install BootMii. ^_-

Lol. See above.

Oh, lol indeed. If it weren't for that, Nintendo would have quite the awesome repair center. I used to live in Redmond (3 blocks from NoA), and when my DS buttons started acting up, I went in, spent 30 minutes in their repair center store checking out merch, and was out with a fixed system... for free.

Common Case Scenario ie What happens 90% of the time (thus far, it's 100% based of reports because there have been no reports of intentional bricks due to homebrew.)

What's more disconcerting is that they even have that right in the first place. Whether its common or not is irrelevant; they can legally destroy your system if they even detect the possibility of you using it for something they don't like.

How awesome is that? <_<

There have been reports of homebrew'd consoles not having to pay more than a standard price either. So it's both ways. Also I was just making a general statement with no regards to price.

True. But, people should know so they can protect themselves.

Stop responding to me because this thread is dumb. :V

Says the guy multiquoting me. <_<; If it was so dumb, why did you even post?

Wow.... that is so retarted O_o what is N's problem with having a little extra fun?

Because, to Nintendo, it's not a little harmless extra fun, it's a serious breach of IP and potentially pirating. Remember: many people use USB loader hacks because it's easier to just hack your ISO than to keep an SD card in your system... but according to the DMCA and Nintendo's various EULAs, backup copies, even ones used for non-profit / private reasons, are illegal and constitute pirating.

It's really, really dumb.

EDIT: So... have I finally killed off this ridiculous thread?

 

[GimR]

what if we all started a petition for Nintendo to patch the game and have it include "no tripping" at the least, I mean if everyone (especially the Melee players) really pushed to have them balance the game maybe they would.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Oh, sweet Jesus H. Christ... See people? This is why we can't have nice things.

This is why you read your **** EULAs! This kind of practice, while a joke in the context of this particular link, is NOT UNCOMMON, and is entirely legal. It is legal for you to sign away pretty much any right you have in a contract, and since EULAs are legally binding, you can sign away rights in those, too.

Read and learn, people.

 

[AvaricePanda]

what if we all started a petition for Nintendo to patch the game and have it include "no tripping" at the least, I mean if everyone (especially the Melee players) really pushed to have them balance the game maybe they would.

No; this may have worked in other fighting game communities such as SF, but that's because that it's designed to be a competitive fighting game. Brawl is designed to be a party game, and as such, the vast majority of people that play it don't play it competitively. We would be a small minority of people bringing up complaints about the game, and it's about an issue that hinders (if only very slightly) the competitive aspect of the game — the aspect Nintendo never intended the game to have, or at least never catered the game towards.

 

[6Mizu]

So is there any reason tripping should NOT be banned than. Because it sounds like either everyone wants it banned or don't want it, but the people that don't have it banned have easily gotten there arguments beaten.

EDIT: So pretty much the people that want it banned are "winning" right now.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So is there any reason tripping should NOT be banned than. Because it sounds like either everyone wants it banned or don't want it, but the people that don't have it banned have easily gotten there arguments beaten.

EDIT: So pretty much the people that want it banned are "winning" right now.

Have we been reading the same thread?


Because it looks to me like the people that want it removed have had their arguments crushed for a variety of reasons.


Nobody likes tripping, but don't expect tripping removed to be the standard any time soon.

 

[6Mizu]

Have we been reading the same thread?


Because it looks to me like the people that want it removed have had their arguments crushed for a variety of reasons.


Nobody likes tripping, but don't expect tripping removed to be the standard any time soon.

I'm not. >.>

I just feel that the arguments that people put up for why it should be apart of the game are dumb.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not. >.>

I just feel that the arguments that people put up for why it should be apart of the game are dumb.

You seem to be missing the point, people have put out pretty much airtight arguments explaining why standardizing a hacked environment is worse then the problem.


You know, nobody likes cancer, but what if you found the cure for cancer required you to blow up the world? Solution is worse then the problem, same as in this situation.



If you think that there's an error in the reasoning, feel free to point it out.

 

[bigman40]

This thread shouldn't even be here. We can't do anything against Nintendo for reasons stated above. Only way we can use no tripping as a standard (hell even use it in tourneys) is to just do it incognito.

 

[Suic]

...they DO NOT belong in a serious, legitimate, competitive environment. You DO NOT hack games to fix them.

You can never have a sponsored tournament...You can never be a real sport.

Ok I am completely fine with vBrawl never changing at all; but like Veril I can not possible understand why you think that a hacked version of a game can not have or does not deserve a serious competitive environment. Like I said vBrawl is fine staying the way it is forever; but saying that a group of competition minded individuals can't get together and take a game in a better direction tournament wise seems completely ludicrous! By this I don't mean to say that there aren't possible legal issues and such, but you seem to imply that games like Brawl+ should never be played in a tournament setting... And how can you say that it can't be a real sport. Anything can be a sport whether it is a hacked game or freaking curling. What really defines a sport to you anyway? One with corporate sponsors? There are so many sports of the world with no such endorsements. And to be perfectly honest, I would imagine that many businesses would sponsor this anyway. It may be somewhat sticky legally, but that does not mean that it carries any significant real world risk. The small risk that it does carry with it; I would imagine that many businesses would be willing to turn a blind eye to for the extra business they get out of the deal.
I do not mean to come across as filled with rage (though that may be closer to the truth than I would like it to be), but BBrawl and Brawl+ deserve their due even if it is never in MLG.
Also, if I took you out of context I didn't mean to. I felt like I understood your opinion correctly, but if not then apologies in advance.

 

[tuestresfat]

Hasn't this dragged on long enough? Even if tripping gets banned it's not like it'll significantly enhance the competitive quality of this game. Stop making such a big deal out of it. How many large tournaments has tripping been a factor that caused a player to lose a spot in the top 8? Lose a set? Lose a match? I don't know the answer myself but it definitely isn't very high, if any at all.

The point still stands we can't use hacks to improve the competitive quality of the game because if we do, it will not stop at tripping. Check out Brawl+ or BalancedBrawl, we're taking a step in that direction if we allow this.

edit: the problem with hacking the game is that there is nobody to say when enough is enough. players will always find ways to argue "this is cheap, this is broken, this is unfair, this makes the game unplayable" and we will use hacks to "fix" those problems time and time again until eventually the game will be ruined.

btw good luck convincing MLG to let you guys play a hacked game at their tournaments.

 

[Lore]

Like I said, people have been fighting to own the software they purchase instead of licensing it for ages.

Yeah, I'm not even going to bother to argue about the legality. Everyone else seems to have it covered, and I'm tired of arguing about it. >_<

Copyright needs reform, not abuse.

what if we all started a petition for Nintendo to patch the game and have it include "no tripping" at the least, I mean if everyone (especially the Melee players) really pushed to have them balance the game maybe they would.

The Wii can't patch games. Thanks for staying a step behind again Nintendo!

Hasn't this dragged on long enough? Even if tripping gets banned it's not like it'll significantly enhance the competitive quality of this game. Stop making such a big deal out of it. How many large tournaments has tripping been a factor that caused a player to lose a spot in the top 8? Lose a set? Lose a match? I don't know the answer myself but it definitely isn't very high, if any at all.

The point still stands we can't use hacks to improve the competitive quality of the game because if we do, it will not stop at tripping. Check out Brawl+ or BalancedBrawl, we're taking a step in that direction if we allow this.

edit: the problem with hacking the game is that there is nobody to say when enough is enough. players will always find ways to argue "this is cheap, this is broken, this is unfair, this makes the game unplayable" and we will use hacks to "fix" those problems time and time again until eventually the game will be ruined.

btw good luck convincing MLG to let you guys play a hacked game at their tournaments.

Can you PLEASE stop repeating this? No one is arguing whether it should be standard (or even attempted at large tournaments), but we are arguing about the legality and how easy it would be to do.

I've lost several stocks to tripping. Luckily, they weren't at a tournament.

Yes, people are hacking the rest of the game. That's called BBrawl and Brawl+. Changing moves has absolutely nothing to do with taking out tripping. We're simply talking about removing a completely random element that neither player has any form of control over. If something like that is allowed in a competitive game, then it takes away the importance of skill regardless of how often it actually makes you lose.

I've already said the difference between random elements and moves, so I'm not going to restate it here.

 

[pure_awesome]

If we hack the game to take tripping out, there's absolutely no reason for us to not hack the game and make item spawns not random. That way items could be part of the competitive Brawl ruleset.

I'd be down. I love items.

 

[Lore]

If we hack the game to take tripping out, there's absolutely no reason for us to not hack the game and make item spawns not random. That way items could be part of the competitive Brawl ruleset.

I'd be down.

There already is an item-based ruleset, but it's hindered by item spawns.

I don't think that it's possible to hack where they spawn yet, but it should be hack-able eventually.

 

[Masmasher@]

slippery slope fallacy needs to stop. its silly.

 

[Darach]

I just need the tripping to stop or at least they should have implemented a option of taking the tripping out. Past 2 days I've been tripping way more then usual,Idk if its me o the game >_>;

 

[Jack Kieser]

There already is an item-based ruleset, but it's hindered by item spawns.

I don't think that it's possible to hack where they spawn yet, but it should be hack-able eventually.

Actually, we can hack that now. I already have hacked versions of (IIRC) FD, Battlefield, and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) up for download in the ISP thread.

slippery slope fallacy needs to stop. its silly.

Except in this case, it's pretty valid. Eliminating infinites, or killing planking, or rebalancing movesets is JUST AS EASY as removing tripping (hell, most of its already been done). It's not like banning Meta, where its not just as easy to justify banning Snake, or Marth, or D3; in this particular case, there is no competitive reason not to just rebalance the game ourselves if we're willing to use hacks.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Well, you could never make everyone happy by rebalancing. That's impossible.

But could you find someone that would be unhappy that tripping is gone? Some people have expressed unhappiness, but more-so with the method, it seems.

I don't really see why removing tripping is editing the balance of gameplay, because it works the same for everyone; it's just annoying. It annoys everyone. That's not changing the balance, it's removing stress for everyone. There is no slope to continue down. If there is a slope, you might say that we've come to this discussion because we justified removing annoying items and banned certain annoying stages! It is a slope that we've been on for the better part of a decade.

 

[xDD-Master]

Good read.

What about a competetive Brawl-hack-pack with all random effects removed (tripping, attacks that cause tripping, some attacks, like Gaws Side B etc.) and more stage viable (Freezed Poke2 and Wario Ware for example)?

 

[Masmasher@]

Except in this case, it's pretty valid. Eliminating infinites, or killing planking, or rebalancing movesets is JUST AS EASY as removing tripping (hell, most of its already been done). It's not like banning Meta, where its not just as easy to justify banning Snake, or Marth, or D3; in this particular case, there is no competitive reason not to just rebalance the game ourselves if we're willing to use hacks.

ah but we arent balancing characters heck we really arent rebalancing anything. really we are omitting something.
every one has a equal/balanced chance at tripping. we are simply disallowing that chance. in this case the traditional "leave the game as it is" contradicts with the law of keeping thing finely tuned and competitive. the only thing that should be holding back tripping being taken away is the hassle and legal issues you mentioned. other then that tripping has no place in a competitive enviroment. also no one can deflect the idea that this could happen in a tournament match...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lolwut.

Is "just deal with it" your default for every debate? I could swear I've seen a similar line from you on the MK topic. Tired default is tired.

And my answer: No, we have the means to make the necessary change. The Smash community is not immense to the degree that it would be impossible to standardize "no tripping" for our regionals/nationals. I could see if we didn't have the tools, but that is not the case...

It's a default when it feels like people are whining about it.

I changed my opinion on the MK debate, I'm pro ban now, but ignoring that this debate on tripping is just silly. Street fighter would gladly remove random dizzies from SF2 if given the option, but they don't, they don;t because this creates a few problems that people have been stressing in this topic.

1. Where is the line drawn - When do we say enough is enough, some people say it would only apply to tripping, not everyone is going to agree with that answer in a kind manor. If we hacked the game to remove tripping a lot of people would wonder why we didn't nerf MK to make him the worst character in the game. Why didn't we buff Ganondorf.

2. What about other random factors - What about Peach's bom-omb's? DDD's Gordo's? Luigi's missle? Should we remove those random factors because they can influence a game. It's not a static variable, might as well remove it if tripping is removed.

3. MLG would not support it - They couldn't;t support it on the preface it's a fan made hack and it's not made by Nintendo who own the rights to the game. They are a couple of reasons why hacks aren't supported as the main format of a game. Main one being people distributing an edited version of Brawl, which they don't own the rights to. Even if it's something as minor as removing tripping, that can be lawsuitable.

I'm not doubting that removing tripping would benefit the .1% of situations it costs people games, but that's just how this game is set up with tripping. No matter how stupid it is, it's part of the game, unless it breaks it horribly, why should we force people to get hacks for it.

 

[Kitamerby]

There already is an item-based ruleset, but it's hindered by item spawns.

I don't think that it's possible to hack where they spawn yet, but it should be hack-able eventually.

It's finally become possible, and it's easy, too!

 

[Lore]

It's a default when it feels like people are whining about it.

I changed my opinion on the MK debate, I'm pro ban now, but ignoring that this debate on tripping is just silly. Street fighter would gladly remove random dizzies from SF2 if given the option, but they don't, they don;t because this creates a few problems that people have been stressing in this topic.

1. Where is the line drawn - When do we say enough is enough, some people say it would only apply to tripping, not everyone is going to agree with that answer in a kind manor. If we hacked the game to remove tripping a lot of people would wonder why we didn't nerf MK to make him the worst character in the game. Why didn't we buff Ganondorf.

2. What about other random factors - What about Peach's bom-omb's? DDD's Gordo's? Luigi's missle? Should we remove those random factors because they can influence a game. It's not a static variable, might as well remove it if tripping is removed.

3. MLG would not support it - They couldn't;t support it on the preface it's a fan made hack and it's not made by Nintendo who own the rights to the game. They are a couple of reasons why hacks aren't supported as the main format of a game. Main one being people distributing an edited version of Brawl, which they don't own the rights to. Even if it's something as minor as removing tripping, that can be lawsuitable.

I'm not doubting that removing tripping would benefit the .1% of situations it costs people games, but that's just how this game is set up with tripping. No matter how stupid it is, it's part of the game, unless it breaks it horribly, why should we force people to get hacks for it.

For 1:

A random event is something that the players have no control over whatsover. It can affect what happens in the match, or it might not have any impact. Either way, it is a random event, and anything that is random in that way (will argue about that way in the next bit) makes skill less important.

The same argument goes for items. Why practice doing a combo or anything else if a bomb can drop on you or your opponent and kill them?

We're only talking about removing an uncontrollable random event from the game. We have BBrawl and other variants for actual moves.


For 2:

Then don't use the shotgun. It's exactly the same as using GnW's side B; you don't have to use it if you don't want to. That's part of the point of adding luck into a character's moves. It's there so you can choose to take the risk, not take the risk by doing something that is completely necessary to play.

Tripping is a random element that everyone has to deal with no matter what. Yes, you can choose not to dash, but you'll probably be beaten rather quickly.

Unless you plank as MK. >_>

For 3:
No one here is arguing for MLG to start using this or for anyone to even attempt it at a large tournament. We're simply debating whether or not it can be applied in an easy way in a smaller tournament or if it is even worth it to remove it.

It's finally become possible, and it's easy, too!

Really? Awesome! ^_^

 

[JOE!]

going off on a tangent here, but relating to the slippery slope deal:

what harm could come if tourneys started taking place with BBrawl/Brawl+ ? (non-sponsored to dodge legality arguments for the moment)

I mean, according to a few arguments here, the competitive community is such a neglectable portion of the brawl player-base, it shouldnt be that noticable, correct?

(also, what could it mean for the game if say....Izaw beats Ally simply because Link and Snake (or is he MK now?) are on level playing fields?)

 

[ErikG]

We're only talking about removing an uncontrollable random event from the game. We have BBrawl and other variants for actual moves.

Tripping is not uncontrollable. You have to input the dash. The only difference between tripping and other things that have random effects is that tripping doesn't benefit the controller of the character.

 

[Masmasher@]

Tripping is not uncontrollable. You have to input the dash. The only difference between tripping and other things that have random effects is that tripping doesn't benefit the controller of the character.

youre ignoring the competitive component...

 

[ErikG]

youre ignoring the competitive component...

And where is the competitive component of a DDD pulling a Gordo in close proximity and getting the kill on someone who was only at like 60%?

If you're willing to change the game to remove a random component that detracts from competitive play, then why not remove all cases of random happenings?

 

[Sails]

Personally, I'm all for removing tripping. However, it doesn't bother me enough to have it removed from tournaments despite how simple it really is to do. I think it would cause more problems to remove it (Trust issues are a problem since you can add more codes causing some to not want to attend the tourny), so I say leave it be.

So what if someone lost to a RNG? It happens and it sucks, but in most competitive games random things happen, it's just that this one happens to be highly punishable.

Verdict: I'm on the fence =\ Perhaps if a code was created where if the two players agree to removing tripping for the set, then they can hold a button when selecting the map and remove it. This is quite possible actually, I'd like to see this happen and see community reaction.

 

[Shadic]

I'd love tripping removed, but I can't see it happening because not only are we stuck with MLG, but there's a huge stigma against any kind of hacking in this community. Plus the fallacious "Slippy slope" argument.

Sigh.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'd love tripping removed, but I can't see it happening because not only are we stuck with MLG, but there's a huge stigma against any kind of hacking in this community. Plus the fallacious "Slippy slope" argument.

Sigh.

*sigh*


I don't see any slippery slope fallacy here, you're confusing it with the logically sound form "Reductio Ad Absurdum". Reductio Ad Absurdum (or, Reduce to the Absurd") is essentially proof by negation, you assume that something is true, and apply that consistently until you reach an absurd conclusion. To prove, cite the absurd conclusion and the the reason why it produces this.

This is commonly confused with slippery slope fallacy which makes the assumption that the situation DEGRADES in some form without proving the situation WILL degrade, if you prove the situation will degrade.


As an example to compare:

1. Reductio Ad Absurdium, I am proposing to give ten cents to purchase a sample of any product that makes a particular criteria, an argument in this form would be that this produces an aburd outcome such as an absurd number of products, or a product that was simply against the purpose of the purchase.

2. Slippery slope fallacy: I am proposing to pay ten cents for a product, an argument of this form would assume that if I pay the ten cents the product's price will increase steadily and I will pay the price regardless with nothing to justify this.

3. Slippery slope argument: Exact same as above, but the progression is proven (for example, it's a good that's becoming more scarce in the market, but it will be required for our production model, therefore it would be a valid form).


All are essentially attempts at Reductio Ad Absurdium, which is fundamentally proof by negation, but only 1 and 3 are logical, and this is because 2 lacks proof that the slope occurs, it just assumes that it exists.



In-thread examples:

"This will improve Brawl" opposed by, "these things would improve Brawl as well or more".

"This will remove randomness from the game which should not be match deciding" opposed by, "King Dedede, Mr. G&W, Luigi, and Peach all have moves with random properties, remove?"


Both are reductio ad abusrdium.


I have also seen players attempting to prove that that other hacks would leak in as a natural result of officially supporting hacks on the basis of the fact that most areas do not follow the official ruleset in various ways, this is a valid form of slippery slope.



Regardless, this community is the most hacking supportive community I have ever seen, it's just that we keep hacks officially separate from the main metagame.



Furthermore, did you miss the legal issues with this?

 

[Shadic]

I have also seen players attempting to prove that that other hacks would leak in as a natural result of officially supporting hacks on the basis of the fact that most areas do not follow the official ruleset in various ways, this is a valid form of slippery slope.

That's exactly what I was talking about.

Regardless, this community is the most hacking supportive community I have ever seen, it's just that we keep hacks officially separate from the main metagame.

We're from different necks of the woods. I've been harassed for using hacks more than once. Probably doesn't help that I prefer two mods of this game over regular Brawl.

Furthermore, did you miss the legal issues with this?

Not at all. That's why I mentioned MLG. Apart from MLG, I've seen that nobody cares one way or the other about hacks. There have been decent sized Brawl+ tournaments for a year now.