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Who do you believe has the worst set of B moves?

Rh1thmz

Smash Journeyman
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Ike.

Ober+B=Bad
Up+B=Bad
Down+b=average
Regular b=Who uses this?
Um dude...Ike uses side-B to actually get some degree of speed and proper spacing. Ike can catch a player off-guard with the super armor frames of neut-B, and it can kill completely uncharged at reasonable percents. Ike is DEFINITELY not the character with the least-used B move set.



CF and Ganondorf, however, have terrible B-sets. Their only reasonable moves are the side-B's, which quickly get very predictable. Don't even consider neut-B's...waaay to much starting lag.

BUT ZOMG GOAIZ j00 C4N DO A SNEAK ATTACK WITH A REVERSE FALCON P44NCH!!!

Yeah, with your entire 60ish frames of starting time, too. Good luck not getting lasered/faired/pretty much any projectiled, too. Anyways, they have one of the most gimpable up-B's imaginable, and CF yells FALCON KICK!!!11 before he uses it, so its waaay too easy to see coming (not to mention its really punishable). Although Ganondorf doesn't yell before down-Bing, it's just a powershield away from being punished by virutally anything.

So yeah, CF and Ganondorf's B sets are terrible.
 

Darkwashu

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Um dude...Ike uses side-B to actually get some degree of speed and proper spacing. Ike can catch a player off-guard with the super armor frames of neut-B, and it can kill completely uncharged at reasonable percents. Ike is DEFINITELY not the character with the least-used B move set.
Its easy to avoid the over B.
Its called jumping,with ending lag,its not that bad.
It moves fast,with but starting and ending lag,it doesnt make up for it.


I said in later post that i his neutral b is good in the air.
 

Kiyosuki

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Feb 23, 2008
Messages
367
I think it may be time to redesign Yoshi a little next time around.

Though one thing keeps bugging the hell out of me. Why doesn't Yoshi have a tether recovery, using his tongue? I mean...he has no third jump, just a sort of...aerial stall using the egg toss but that can only go so far. Considering that, plus his long and stretchy tongue, doesn't it make an obscene amount of sense for him to at least have a tether recovery move? Almost like it's a no brainer?

I think it's pretty downright mind boggling that it was overlooked by the development team.

I don't entirely agree with the idea that Ganondorf has the worst. I mean it's not the best, but for his style side B and down B I think can be pretty useful. They're not moves you get to abuse constantly but anything that character can get..
 

peeup

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I think it may be time to redesign Yoshi a little next time around.

Though one thing keeps bugging the hell out of me. Why doesn't Yoshi have a tether recovery, using his tongue? I mean...he has no third jump, just a sort of...aerial stall using the egg toss but that can only go so far. Considering that, plus his long and stretchy tongue, doesn't it make an obscene amount of sense for him to at least have a tether recovery move? Almost like it's a no brainer?

I think it's pretty downright mind boggling that it was overlooked by the development team.
@Yoshi comment: do you play as Yoshi? I do. His egg toss is a LIFE SAVER in many recovery situations. Even though his double jump+air dodge gives him more recovery then lots of the cast, the development team thought that they should make it even better. And you think that his toung should be a tether recovery? Seroiusly? Don't you think that the tounge would, oh, I dont know, snap in half if it had to carry the wieght of an entire dinosaur-thing? The othe tethers are either made of metal, laser (s/zamus), or the thing their supporting is lighter than a feather (olimar).
 

Firus

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@Yoshi comment: do you play as Yoshi? I do. His egg toss is a LIFE SAVER in many recovery situations. Even though his double jump+air dodge gives him more recovery then lots of the cast, the development team thought that they should make it even better. And you think that his toung should be a tether recovery? Seroiusly? Don't you think that the tounge would, oh, I dont know, snap in half if it had to carry the wieght of an entire dinosaur-thing? The othe tethers are either made of metal, laser (s/zamus), or the thing their supporting is lighter than a feather (olimar).
This is SMASH BROS. I don't think I even need to delve into how unrealistic Smash Bros is for my point to be clear -- it's unrealistic, a tongue being a tether recovery is hardly ridiculously so compared to everything else. Smash Bros takes a bunch of Nintendo characters and takes the unrealisticness of all of the franchises and mashes them together to make one massively impossible game. I think a tongue tether recovery would be okay.

As for Yoshi's normal recovery, Egg Toss may be a life saver but it's still a slight movement, nothing more. It's the worst recovery move there is. Considering that, it wouldn't be unfair to give him a tether recovery to possibly make his recovery suck a little less. Even with his double jump + Egg Toss, he'll still have trouble recovering, especially if he's low enough and someone edgehogs.
 

Bowser King

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@Yoshi comment: do you play as Yoshi? I do. His egg toss is a LIFE SAVER in many recovery situations. Even though his double jump+air dodge gives him more recovery then lots of the cast, the development team thought that they should make it even better. And you think that his toung should be a tether recovery? Seroiusly? Don't you think that the tounge would, oh, I dont know, snap in half if it had to carry the wieght of an entire dinosaur-thing? The othe tethers are either made of metal, laser (s/zamus), or the thing their supporting is lighter than a feather (olimar).
So you wouldn't want a bad recovery replaced with a decent one? That's...weird.
His tongue wouldn't snap...it's a game. There are a lot of things in this game that couldn't happen in the real world or wouldn't make sense.
 

Penísu-Chan

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Aug 24, 2008
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Snake. His Down B is not even an attack, his missiles are slow, his third jump is weird and I don't remember his fourth attack.
 

Kiyosuki

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@Yoshi comment: do you play as Yoshi? I do. His egg toss is a LIFE SAVER in many recovery situations. Even though his double jump+air dodge gives him more recovery then lots of the cast, the development team thought that they should make it even better. And you think that his toung should be a tether recovery? Seroiusly? Don't you think that the tounge would, oh, I dont know, snap in half if it had to carry the wieght of an entire dinosaur-thing? The othe tethers are either made of metal, laser (s/zamus), or the thing their supporting is lighter than a feather (olimar).
This is Yoshi's tongue we're talking about. Besides like other people pointed out, why are we applying real life logic to a game where a man can bury a landmine in concrete with his bare hands? And a character who's supposed to be the size of a quarter suddenly isn't?

Also how exactly does air dodge give him more recovery? I know that would be so in Melee but it doesn't really work that way in this game anymore, obviously done to get rid of wavedashing. Is there some special new way of using it just for Yoshi I'm not aware of?

I'm sorry but I'm not convinced it's not a good idea, just because the players who use the character can sort of manage without it as is now doesn't mean the idea of one of the only characters in the game who doesn't have a third jump getting at least one other recovery option of some sort is suddenly a horrible idea. Can anyone here who uses this character seriously tell me they'd complain if he got a new recovery option of any kind? It still seems like a no brainer to me. At least make his side B travel a little further in the air.

Though thinking about it a little more, he may really not have the the worst B moves, it may just be victim to a game with too many defense options for people to use.

No I'm starting to give Sonic a little bit thought. I don't think anyone's B moveset is useless per say (and certainly not Snake's, I have no clue how some can say one of the top tier characters' B moveset is completely useless but it's your opinion. A lot of these Snakes arn't winning just because of forward and up tilt's magical invisible hitbox though...) but the thing about Sonic's is that two of them essentially do the same thing. I know they have some differences, I tried for a while to use Sonic, but I don't think they're all that noticable in the thick of things. I do like the idea of simplcity they were going for but a lot of the time I feel like Sonic's B moves aside from his up B are more dangerous to myself than useful at times.

It could have to do with the fact every character in this game can't be stunned long enough to combo most of the time, otherwise they could have been pretty good combo starters. Though I think they're somewhat easy to perfect shield. It may not be that they're bad moves exactly, just that they fall victim to the way the game itself is.
 
D

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Ike.

Ober+B=Bad
Up+B=Bad
Down+b=average
Regular b=Who uses this?
Ober+B=Fast, can give Ike better speed. IMO, best of Ike's B moves.
Up+B=Easy 10-15% damage. Can spike if used correctly
Down+B=Yeah its average
Regular+B=Super Armor if used at right time and covers around Ike as well. (but i'll admit its the least good of Ike's moves)

I already said this in a earlier post, but i think Yoshi, Sonic and Jiggz have the worst b attacks
 

PD4FR

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Sheik Squirtle Yoshi DDD Captain falcon.
IMO.
I highly disagree with D3 being one of the worst.
His Over B is extremely useful.:)
Neutral B can stop some attacks. It can also be used as a suicide move.(knock them low, then jump down and click B.)
his Up B is actually pretty bad, but that is the only one.
Down B is very situational, but I've killed quite a few people with mind games before.

Overall, he has very good B moves.:)
Who else agrees?
 

Ilex

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Lol at people defending their mains. Their B moves may not be crappy, but in comparison to other characters it makes it seem so. If you're going to defend your main then at least say which character you think has worse B moves than them.
 

True Fool

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META-KNIGHT!

I mash on the B-button all day, and fall off the stage, like all the time. Jeez, and it looks like I'm doing so good while I do it, like I could win with just this button, but then I fall off. Mega lame.

Besides him though I may be tempted to say Falcon. No really.
Up-B's not too bad.
Forward-B has dirt for priority.
Neutral-B is not exactly easy to hit with, only with good edge-guard mindgames.
Down-B is hardly anything.

At least Squirtle goes invincible with his Forward-B.
 

PD4FR

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Messages
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Lol at people defending their mains. Their B moves may not be crappy, but in comparison to other characters it makes it seem so. If you're going to defend your main then at least say which character you think has worse B moves than them.
Olimar's neutral B is horrible, LOL.

JK, but seriously, I think D3 has better B moves than Sheik, CF, Ganon, and Yoshi, to name a few.
Just read my other post if you haven't.:)

Edit: LOL, 100th post.:)
 

peeup

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I'd say Mario.

Wow, whoever is saying Snake doesn't know anything about Brawl.
Yeah, I was trolling.
If somebodu doesn't have the title "smash n00b", they're TROLLING when they say that Snake is underpowered in any way. I know snake's specials are good. I was hoping that people would realise that I wasn't serious when I said that.
 

PrinceMarthX

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 13, 2008
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Meta Knight does well in tournaments because of his godly recovery, fast and high priority attacks.
 

ShadowBlitz

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Yeah I think Yoshi has the worst moveset.

Lucas/Ness's side B is OK but Up B can easily be stopped...down B isn't too affective, half of the characters don't have long range attacks and it doesn't work with a few long range attacks (Snake's side B). His neutral B is as slow as hell. But yeah Lucas/Ness's is so much better than Yoshi's.
 

holysnap

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It's funny how people say Ikes B-Moves are bad, same with Yoshi they really aren't that bad.

It's kind of hard to say who has the worst set of B moves, it would be easier if we went through all of them such as who has the worst DownB and so on.
 

ROOOOY!

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betterthanbonds9; said:
metaknight or captain falcon

i don't know how either of them do well in tournies
Must....sig...

And as for the topic, Yoshi. His are stupid. B + ->B are useless. Up B is good. Down B is good if your opponent has the reactions of a monkey with downs syndrome.
 

Giga Wario

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I actually agree with whoever says that we should seperate the B moves and discuss who has the worst of each.
Neutral B: Mr. Game & Watch (pretty useless projectile)
Up B: Jigglypuff (only up b that doesen't help you recover in any way, completely useless anyway since you can awake before Jiggs stops singing)
Down B: Olimar (rarely ever used, doesen't have much uses in competitive play)
Side B: 3 way tie between DK (I'm sorry, since when has this ever been useful?), Captain Falcon (awful priority) and Squirtle (jump on the shell for massive damage!)
 

PKSkyler

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Why have peple said Ike and Ness???

IKE:

b: Come down on people and use its super armor to your advantage

side b: use it to space yourself, it also a quick attack.

down b: the counter isnt that hard to pull off, just activate a little before marths

UPB: great as you drop from a ledge then use aether, then drop down again

Ness:

B: Mindgames and lil edguarding it does kinda suck

Side B: PKF is AWESOME, and does so much damage and leads into combos very well.... its lag is punishable, but using advanced PKF techiques its avoidable.

UPB: Who can deny PKT as one of the greatest UPB? (as an attack.) juggle people around with it in midair. Its pretty much impossible to airdodge if yu tail whip, plus make it go all confusing so its hard to attack. Can lead to a PKT2, which gets early kOs if landed.

Down B: Works wonders against energy style projectile spammers(Pit, Falco, Wolf,)

Down B: Diddy Kong (completely useless and easy to avoid)this is a major part of diddy`s game, they bannana litter and make the opponent fall into them, or grab the nannas and chuck them at the enemy
Side B: 3 way tie between Lucario (Useless),This is a chaingrab...do you know that?
my responses are in red....
 

phosphorus

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I actually agree with whoever says that we should seperate the B moves and discuss who has the worst of each.
Neutral B: Zamus (rendered completely useless by the fact than her dsmash exists.)
Up B: Jigglypuff (only up b that doesen't help you recover in any way, completely useless anyway since you can awake before Jiggs stops singing)
Down B: Tie between Sonic (terrible priority) and Diddy Kong (completely useless and easy to avoid)
Side B: 3 way tie between Lucario (Useless), Captain Falcon (awful priority) and Squirtle (jump on the shell for massive damage!)
Sonic's down B is a fine attack, especially when started in the air. And a s for poor priority, if it were any better, it would likely be OP. HOWEVER, I'm annoyed that it isn't an attack untill you release it, like it was in the games.

Lucario's side b is a grab at close range, so I think you can use it on people who are shielding, and if they spot dodge, they still get hit when they come out of the dodge. I thought you said Donkey Kong at first, but reading it again, I have to wonder, have you played the game?
 

Mr.Victory07

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Yoshi's are far from the worst
Ike's are prett bad, and more situational, IC's are kinda meh, Ganon and Falcon are bad,Mario's suck too. Suirtle almost has no use in his b attacks, GaW are also meh
 

Airgemini

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You have no idea what you're talking about.
Neutral B: Zamus (rendered completely useless by the fact than her dsmash exists.)
Completely false! While ZSS's Dsmash is better, her Neutral B is far from the worst.

Down B: Tie between Sonic (terrible priority) and Diddy Kong (completely useless and easy to avoid)
I am completely thrown off by this! Diddy's Bananas are a MAJOR part of his game. I cant believe you even went as far as to saying its useless and easy to avoid..


Side B: 3 way tie between Lucario (Useless)
Actually his Side B is pretty good, has about the same range as his Fsmash and I believe its faster (not sure about that one). There are way worst Side Bs (cough cough ROB)
 

Brinzy

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Yoshi's are far from the worst
Ike's are prett bad, and more situational, IC's are kinda meh, Ganon and Falcon are bad,Mario's suck too. Suirtle almost has no use in his b attacks, GaW are also meh
Ike, I dunno, the fact that a lot of his specials have super armor should be boosting him. I mean, come on, he can tank something like Zelda's reapperance box and just kill her with Eruption, and same goes for pretty much anyone else with Up Bs that only protect with a small attack. The rest can be Countered. Aether is... well, Aether, and Quick Draw is great for opening an approach -> jab

ICs Up B sweetspots the ledge, so that should account for something, right? Squall Hammer seems to do great for damage and helps Popo recover on his own. The little ice blocks (sorry, I don't even know the name of all of these) can be pretty annoying for people with subpar approaching games in the first place. I've been on the other end of it, and I don't think they're really too horrible. SH that down B and you can rack up nice damage and frustrate your opponent. I suppose they are "meh", but they're not situational.

Ganon and Falcon aren't much better than Yoshi when it comes to B moves. You might have me there, though that Murder Choke sets up way better than Egg Lay. It seems that their Up Bs were improved mainly for recovery purposes, but I guess they're not really much otherwise. Down B is good at closing the gap between opponents, and I think if you use it at a close range distance, it should keep you safe as you'll fly past them. Ganon's spikes near the start of it and it kills pretty early on grounded opponents. I can't say much for C. Falcon as I don't use him. The neutral B moves... eh, I guess that's a mindgame thing. I still can't see what makes them any worse than Yoshi's. I don't know anyone who uses Egg Lay, and Yoshi's down B doesn't seem to get near as much use as any of Falcon/Ganon's moves, not even the neutral B. It's also as easily telegraphed as the other two's down B, but it takes it a step further and goes straight down, all the time. You can at least work with the start-up of the kicks.

Mario's are much better than Yoshi's, imo. That cape alone should place Mario even with Yoshi. Recovery, reflecting, mindgames, gimping, etc. It's a great move all around. FLUDD is great for adding onto Mario's gimp game. It can screw with so many character's recoveries (or at least push them back far enough so they have to grab the ledge if they want to make it back, which means Mario can edgehog). Fireballs are your typical annoyers. The Up B... eh, it's just there to recover, I guess.

Squirtle's are possibly worse than Yoshi's, but it depends on how you look at the Down B. Nevertheless, you win here.

G&W's Up B is amazing. He doesn't enter freefall from it, it has invincibility at the start-up, it slows his falling, etc. There really isn't anything wrong with that move. Sausages limit approaching options, if only a tad bit. The bucket, just by existing, helps to limit long-range projectile spam from some characters, and the attack itself... come on, d-throw -> down B on a failed tech for -1 stock. Judgment is fickle, but the rest make up for it.


I say you've got me for sure on Squirtle, and Ganon/C. Falcon are possibly even, but the rest I disagree with still.
 
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How can you say Squirtle?

B^: Great damage power if sweetspotted. Average recovery move
B<>: Squirtle can't be damaged while on this. It has priority over almost anything. All right, if you use it at the edge you must recover, but that is your own fault for playing stupid.
Bv: Pokemon change, vital for surviving at high percentages, and getting awesome vertical KO power.
B: Easiest way ever of gimping bad recoveries.
Tell me how many times you've seen squirtle NOT gimp a character with his aerials instead of his useless B-moves?

I say MK is the worst.

Neutral B; Doesn't do squat.
UpB; Seriously makes no sense.
SideB; Garbage
DownB; Garbage
I lol'd


My opinion?

Diddy, Yoshi, and Sonic.
 

Airgemini

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Lol what?

From experience, I'd have to say it's Peach,

Peach's Down B doesn't work in the air
Does that really make it a bad move though? Turnips are Peach's best special and are very versitile and have some nice ATs. Not to mention the chance of pulling Bombs, Beamswords, Mr. Saturns, and stitchies.

the Parasol isn't really the most fantastic attack,
Might not be a good attack but its an awesome horizontal recovery move.

the Peach Bomber just doesn't seem to be worth the trouble,
It's not useless like Melee's Peach Bomber. Its still a nice move to catch your opponents off guard with and does a decent amount of damage.

and Toad, as hard as it is to time, doesn't turn around to hit people if you were hit from behind.
Yeah but sometimes Toad will sort of "suck" the opponents in from behind and still damage them.
 

Hydde

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i admit that squirts Bs are not mindblowing.. but are far from the worst.

Waterbomb could be used to gimp people ....but is also good to MOVE people from their position....specially annoying campers who like to stay on the edge throwing ****. One bomb and suddenly they are hanging on the edge and the situations changes.

Withdraw is not so usefull but sometimes is good to surprise people and to CHANGE the momentum of the battle. Maybe ull say this is useless but it send opponents flying in the air and forces them to think about landing or hitting u or whatever.....taking out for a short period of time whatever theywere thinking to do.

So they are not useless.

IMO Zelda´s up B is still crappy and his neutral B is still not so good. Sheik´s chain is not what it deserves to be and sonic millions of rolls are just too repetitive.
 
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