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Where you AGT? The Official Toon Link General Discussion/ Video Thread!

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
955
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Austin, Texas
Anyone know why the replays still desynch?
I JV 5'd a lv9 CPU Ganondorf and wanted to save it, but of course everyone just kills themselves in the replay.
 

Tmacc

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
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You have to download the wifi version, which is the only version that lets you save replays I believe.

In exchange, I don't think you can light shield or something like that.
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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Vancouver, BC, Canada
Anyone know why the replays still desynch?
I JV 5'd a lv9 CPU Ganondorf and wanted to save it, but of course everyone just kills themselves in the replay.
The reason why replays desync is because Project M uses an added input called "Light Press" using the shoulder buttons. It's also because we have changed how the c-stick functions (eg: crouching and pressing c-stick down in projectM causes you to dsmash, rather than dtilt like in brawl).

There is no actual "Light Shield" in Project M as of yet, but it's something we're looking to do in the future. If you would like to save replays, you can use the Wi-Fi safe build, however you lose the extra inputs that make the game feel more "Melee-like" (pretty sure the cstick still functions relatively the same, though).
 

MysteryRevengerson

IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
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What are good moves to use when you crouch cancel something? I know this is kind of move specific, but I guess it could be tiered depending on how punishable something is or something.
 

OkamiBW

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What are good moves to use when you crouch cancel something? I know this is kind of move specific, but I guess it could be tiered depending on how punishable something is or something.
With TL? You've got D-smash, which is usually your best option since you don't have to guess which side they're going to land on. Occasionally grab can be good, but yeah, just in general, D-smash is probably your best go-to move for CC'ing.
 

Ryu_Ken

Ace Adventurer and Truth Seeker
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I find myself repeating this again:
Powerstar9 said:
Damn. TL's dtilt is more awesome than I thought. :awesome:
It's as awesome as his utilt usmash. Has a wide range of uses.
 

MysteryRevengerson

IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Joined
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I love how deceptive the second hit of Usmash is. Sometimes I forget it's there.

And thanks, I love me some Dsmash.

Also, Dtilt to Fair is so fresh looking. Anything ending in Fair is legit.
 

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
955
Location
Austin, Texas
Monk (Toon Link) vs Toast (Sheik)
After several months of not using TL, I tried him out again and I don't know why I stopped. Critiques and such please. I play better later on in the video btw
My only suggestion would be to space a little more, don't attempt so many grabs.
You have to be really careful in your approaches against Sheik, Toast seemed pretty solid at the MU.
When you were able to establish control you did great.
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Actually, BRLink, I think grabs are extremely strong on TL. He gets insane amounts of damage through his grab combos if you know how to execute correctly because they are 90% guaranteed.

Monk's main problem is he doesn't seem to know when and where to perform grabs. Monk- I suggest you work on your DD->Grab game a little more and just work on your basic fundamentals overall. You know how to play the character itself, but you seem to ignore spacing and "mindgames" if you will. You need to know when and where it's appropriate to spam projectiles, and when it's appropriate to just go full in with nair spam and close combat combos. Spacing, along with capitalization and followup is the main thing you need to work on. Work on your DD game and learning how to chip away at your opponent while baiting them to do something, and punishing and capitalizing accordingly.

It's admittedly the main thing I need to work on as well, which is why I'm currently trying to develop other more technical characters who are less dependent on projectiles and more dependent on raw spacing/ mindgames to develop my basic fundamentals better. I'm not telling you to drop Toon Link again, as I'm really happy you decided to come back to him, but that's what I see as the main area you need to improve on IMO.
 

MonkUnit

Project M Back Roomer
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Thank you BRLNK88 and daze. I really don't have a good feel for how fast my grab is half the time, I feel that I spent too much time in the air, and I didn't really DD that much. I'll continue to work on those aspects as I have no intentions of dropping Toon Link again right now. =)
 

OkamiBW

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Just picking a random point to start at. Starting at 24:00. TL's perspective. Gonna be super nitpicky. :o

You seem to double jump unnecessarily a lot. It's not as important at low percents not to do that, but especially at higher percents, if you do that and you get hit out, you'll die a lot earlier.

Use D-throw to U-smash or F-smash at low to mid percents (I saw F-tilt). Use C-stick for fastest input.

Daze is right. There are a lot of times where you could be grabbing. Try to get a feel for its utility when you play.

When edgeguarding Sheik, GRAB THE LEDGE. It's so amazing. If she has to Up-B, it's free damage for you. Best punish is usually Grab>D-throw>F-smash/N-air back off stage. You like to drop bombs on her recovery. She's not a normal character. You should just use your bombs and throw them towards the stage to turn you around so you can grab the edge. (Dropping bombs from the sky can be good on stage though)
When you do grab the edge to edgeguard her, either ledge hop up or just click forward and stand up from the ledge. Standing up from the ledge usually allows you to stay on the edge while getting up onto the stage with the least amount of lag. After you get on the stage, grab her or if necessary, F-air/D-air her. (25:32, gotta ledge hop F-air that)

Don't chill near her shield with aerials unless you space them or are going past her. Like, space F-airs on her shield or N-air past her shield.

Don't approach her when she's on the edge. Even to drop a bomb. She's got invincibility and can either make the bomb explode hurting you or come up with a N-air. Instead, stay back and don't go off stage. Just wait for her to come up. Throw out boomerangs, drop bombs, toss bombs upwards. You know where your projectiles are better than your opponent.

At 25:35, after you get B-thrown, that is an opportune moment for a grab instead of jabbing.

At 25:40, you D-throw>Up-B. If for some reason you may be feeling like you won't connect with the strong hit of Up-B, just go for a F-air or U-air at that percent as those will kill anyways (though Up-B is always a good option).

I would suggest not using arrows at high percents. Just bombs and boomerangs. They're more combo-able. Actually, just less arrows. They're laggy and don't have much reward.

Totally random thing. Instead of using daze's "dribbling" technique with arrows, use it with a Z-air. Or practice using it with a Z-air. It's got the most bombsauce Okamizeme trajectory ever.

When you hit with boomerang at low percents, just go for a bomb unless you're super close. It's not really too safe to try to follow it up from mid range.

The N-air read at 26:30 was really good.

26:45 D-throw. I'm like 95% sure that F-smash would've been guaranteed. Go for it!

When you have a bomb and you're on the edge, you gotta do the Okami (#narcissist). AGT the bomb forward and momentum yourself upwards. Then you still have your second jump. This is again why I suggest using a tap jump off tag.

27:25. You had a nice D-throw, B-air, U-air combo. But Up-B would've been better since it would've gotten him more off the edge, or perhaps killed.

I feel like you go for a lot of unsafe and telegraphed D-airs. And too many arrows.

DISCLAIMER: Anything I say is subject to being bad advice. Take it with a grain of salt. Etc. etc.
 

Tmacc

Smash Lord
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Dec 23, 2009
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Okami, I really enjoy your TL. The baits are so good, haha, I should use z-drop a lot more, especially OOS.

Hopefully gonna get a couple videos of myself up soon, most likely vs Hylian who is my main practice partner, for you guys to check out/critique. :)
 

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
955
Location
Austin, Texas
Actually, BRLink, I think grabs are extremely strong on TL. He gets insane amounts of damage through his grab combos if you know how to execute correctly because they are 90% guaranteed.

Monk's main problem is he doesn't seem to know when and where to perform grabs. Monk- I suggest you work on your DD->Grab game a little more and just work on your basic fundamentals overall. You know how to play the character itself, but you seem to ignore spacing and "mindgames" if you will. You need to know when and where it's appropriate to spam projectiles, and when it's appropriate to just go full in with nair spam and close combat combos. Spacing, along with capitalization and followup is the main thing you need to work on. Work on your DD game and learning how to chip away at your opponent while baiting them to do something, and punishing and capitalizing accordingly.

It's admittedly the main thing I need to work on as well, which is why I'm currently trying to develop other more technical characters who are less dependent on projectiles and more dependent on raw spacing/ mindgames to develop my basic fundamentals better. I'm not telling you to drop Toon Link again, as I'm really happy you decided to come back to him, but that's what I see as the main area you need to improve on IMO.
I definitely agree Toon gets a lot of mileage off his throws, he has one of the best dthrows in the game.
I meant more along the line of knowing when to grab, which you brought up anyways. I personally feel Toon shouldn't be attempting that many grabs period if you're utilizing it correctly, and should focus on zoning with projectiles (maybe zair). Missed grab is free damage even if the lag time has been greatly reduced.
DD -> grab is nice and is probably something I should do more myself, but most of my set-ups come off a bomb or boomerang.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
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Random thoughts on TL:

nair <3
Covering options with rang+bomb on falling opponents and then up+bing them *****
Ledge cancel dair is gay and should be abused more
Baiting someone after a grab combo into a pivot regrab is soooo satisfying
Dthrow -> uair is godlike at mid percents
Dtilt has untapped potential in combos imo, I want to experiment with this move a lot more
Zair is a really cool move
I am struggling to find many uses for fair :(
 

OkamiBW

Smash Champion
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I like using F-air in a neutral position, often moving back with it. It's the longest range of his aerials and has some solid spacing potential in that certain range where you don't want to approach, but the opponent is too close to use projectiles. It can also be good after N-air combos. Like N-air>N-air>F-air. Not only do you get more range than N-air, but you get them farther off the stage. I'm actually not sure what else would hit in that situation. Maybe Z-air?
 

Ryu_Ken

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Fair is good for combos, but its especially good for edgeguarding. I use it a lot in my dthrow combos at mid percents.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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I've had success using falling fair as a finisher from rising nair since up+bing in that position is really awkward.

I know that fair has good endlag, I can see it being good in neutral and on shields so I'm gonna try it out. I can't think of many situations where I would use it in a combo, though. :< With nair nair fair, what percents are you talking about? you can get a grab/dtilt from nair too, but I guess it's a good option for high percents.

Also, thanks for the video examples.
 

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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So I played a human yesterday for the first time in like... 6 months, I'd forgotten how difficult it is...
Ugh, I have so much catching up to do. :/

A couple things I can conclude, Link is MUCH better against Falco.
Link is a much better character....
 

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
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TL is bad against spacies. Everything else is do-able. Though Lucas and Mario are a little hard.
Yeah, I had such a difficult time trying to land any set-ups, meanwhile I was getting eaten alive by the lasers. Toon inherits many of the issues YL had in Melee.
Link's range seems to really help him in the MU, and he seems to have an easier time landing set-ups.
Compared to Melee, his speed buffs aid him against Falco's relentless pressure. Ftilt actually seemed to be a great defensive tool.
 

Tmacc

Smash Lord
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I've got some cool bomb stuff to show off whenever I get some recording equipment :D

Also, comboing double nair > dtilt spike is one of the most satisfying things I've done in this game.
 

OkamiBW

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U-throw > D-air fire spike is pretty much guaranteed at 120% or so against fast fallers. But they're not gonna DI off stage.

Tbh, I like YL's match ups against the spacies more in Melee. He had a better boomerang game with the angles and shortness he could use. His bombs worked better (for some reason...I'm not sure why). YL's B-air was way the heck better against space animals because it stayed out so long and combo'd into more of a sideways direction rather than up, so you could actually gimp them.

In fact, in a perfect world for Okami, TL's current B-air would be replaced by the double kick from 64 Link, but I don't think I could convince everyone and their Brawl mothers to switch it over.

Annoying bird...I am the worse Leon!
 

BRLNK88

Smash Ace
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I'm actually curious, having now played the game and character extensively, what's the main argument for keeping the Brawl back-swipe over the double kick?
 

9Kplus1

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Because Brawl. (I feel like I'm the only one who prefers vBrawl TL's moveset bar Nair...)

on a different note, my TL is pretty good when I choose to play like a virgin. I'll try to get some sweet, dirty footage of it up asap.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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Personally, I think his Brawl bair is cool and really versatile. It's a staple of my combo game vs non-FF'ers.

9k: Looking forward to seeing videos. =)
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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Yeah lookin forward to it, 9k :)

Also, I love the YL bair, but I feel like TL's bair is better in TL's kit because of his up-b, and the presence of RAR being in the game. Idk, I just feel like it fits TL better than a YL bair would. I LOVE both bair's though, for real <3

Miss that YL bair :L
 
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