Where you AGT? The Official Toon Link General Discussion/ Video Thread!

[demonictoonlink]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAQmMBvT0yw

How do I beat M2K?
But really, I'm still a little sad over game two.


Here's me losing to our top melee player, a luigi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQwY7-r08Y


Check out me getting bodied by this awesome falcon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz3H5rl61F0

And against probably our best PM player, Just
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9omLyAmY5eU


One of me winning for good measure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrNAuzjfHOI
But watch the guy who loses, especially after the second match

 

[CyberZixx]

So toon link got changes. Any one understand what the throw ones do? I am not sure how to feel about the Upb change, will need to see in practice but I felt the old one was perfect.

 

[Samwisely]

We get a magic spike now instead of a firespike! Yay!

Haven't had time to play yet, so that's the only input I can really give.

 

[Poloflipx]

So toon link got changes. Any one understand what the throw ones do? I am not sure how to feel about the Upb change, will need to see in practice but I felt the old one was perfect.

From what I've played, I've had people tech my Up B right in front of me, resulting in me getting punished. Not sure how I'm liking the change much.

U throw: Base knock back (35 instead of 18) and knock back growth (230 instead of 155)increased quite a bit ,it sends the opponent much higher, so you can't combo into it at later percents like you could in 3.5. It does kill floaties at higher percents.

D throw: BKB and KBG are decreased quite a bit , it barely varies in height if you throw someone at 0% or 100, many fast fallers can tech it before you are even able to move, although I managed to jab Fox before he could land at around 75%and at higher percents such as 130 manage a D smash or something. This throw is honestly really good against floaties from what I've seen, as they are sent at almost the same height, and stay in the air long enough for you to hit them with something like U smash or F smash to kill/combo.

F throw: No longer the mixup it used to be in 3.5, and it throws at a lower trajectory, and takes a bit longer to be able to move out it.

B throw: Now has a hitlag multiplier of 1x

 

[CyberZixx]

I just don't see why Tink was nerfed outside Dair AC and Rang sweetspot. I'm personally salty cause I just picked up this character last week and it was the most fun i've had with PM in a while and now I kinda don't wanna play PM anymore. Maybe i'm overeacting and Tink is still the same.

 

[Poloflipx]

I just don't see why Tink was nerfed outside Dair AC and Rang sweetspot. I'm personally salty cause I just picked up this character last week and it was the most fun i've had with PM in a while and now I kinda don't wanna play PM anymore. Maybe i'm overeacting and Tink is still the same.

Still really too early to tell, it seems imo Tink will struggle more against many fast fallers, as he doesn't really have a throw that can kill them properly apart from maybe Down throw, and he has lost the grounded up B he had before to get himself out of pressure

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link is still really ****ing good in 3.6, and most of his changes were meant to address his polarizing attributes (mainly his throws)

in 3.5, his up throw was broken in the fact that it combo'd and killed basically every character in the game on its own, except it was trash vs FFers due to the fact that it had incredibly low BKB. You were basically negative on throw vs them until late %, making u throw polarizing vs most of the cast.

Fsmash had pretty low cooldown actually, throwing it out vs people recovering was actually super fraudulent because of the cooldown

Boomerang % was just ********, lol 19 really?

Dair AC window was also really dumb, since you could just land with dair from a platform with little to no commitment

Up B hitbox timing was cleaned up because the initial hit lasted for waaaaaaaaaay too long

The whole point of these changes actually make him BETTER vs FFers, since U throw can 0 to death them now that it has more BKB. You U throw vs FFers always, and vs the rest of the cast you do U throw at early % for a free U air or two, and then you D throw depending on their fall speed after that. You can also go for b/f throw since they're pretty good positional throws, and toon link gets a ton off of position due to his insane mobility and normals.

 

[Poloflipx]

shhhhh bottom 5 boys, but yeah I see what you're saying, just gotta get used to it as usual

 

[AndrogynousOkami]

Everything Lunchables said is right. Mostly, they just removed his leftover jank.

 

[jtm94]

I'm on the hype train for this character, don't know how far I'll take it, but was waiting for 3.6 to see how he'd fair and I think he's looking good except for random taunt-like animations happening during crouch > fsmash.

 

[Deleted member]

He's really solid. Along with his core concept staying the same, the other top tiers in the meta were nerfed so he is indirectly buffed as a result.

 

[AndrogynousOkami]

...I think he's looking good except for random taunt-like animations happening during crouch > fsmash.

You can actually cancel fsmash into a taunt by pressing down, which is for some reason bufferable.

The utaunt version gives you The Hero's Charm! Sweeeet.

 

[CyberZixx]

So I actually got to play a bit today and Toon Link does indeed feel mostly the same which is nice. Also love the new hit effect in Dtilt sweetspot.

One thing I don't understand is what do we do with Dthrow? That move sends people knowwhere. Seems so easy to DI away and tech. I got a Downsmash kill from it once which was nice.

I think our UpB change is gonna hurt me a bit. More diffiuclt to combo into with the throw changes and feels much weaker now.

 

[KinGly]

Tinks fun. Can I chill with y'all until I know if the sheik bthrow nerf is final? I wanna figure out what tinks matchup spread is looking like in 3.6. He didn't get changed too heavily from what I could tell.

 

[mimgrim]

Toon Link is still really ****ing good in 3.6, and most of his changes were meant to address his polarizing attributes (mainly his throws)

in 3.5, his up throw was broken in the fact that it combo'd and killed basically every character in the game on its own, except it was trash vs FFers due to the fact that it had incredibly low BKB. You were basically negative on throw vs them until late %, making u throw polarizing vs most of the cast.

Fsmash had pretty low cooldown actually, throwing it out vs people recovering was actually super fraudulent because of the cooldown

Boomerang % was just ********, lol 19 really?

Dair AC window was also really dumb, since you could just land with dair from a platform with little to no commitment

Up B hitbox timing was cleaned up because the initial hit lasted for waaaaaaaaaay too long

The whole point of these changes actually make him BETTER vs FFers, since U throw can 0 to death them now that it has more BKB. You U throw vs FFers always, and vs the rest of the cast you do U throw at early % for a free U air or two, and then you D throw depending on their fall speed after that. You can also go for b/f throw since they're pretty good positional throws, and toon link gets a ton off of position due to his insane mobility and normals.

So I have a question for you?

Do you think any of the horrible MUs you said he had in 3.5 (Fox, Falco, Wolf, R.O.B, and Falcon, and of which I agreed with you on the Spacies and Falcon and was unable to form a opinion on R.O.B) have changed in any significant way to be better?

Personally I feel that the improved punish game was given against true FFers helped a little bit to not make them quite as bad, but still pretty bad due to how much they can overwhelm him in the neutral and keep him from pulling a bomb.

And what about his other bad MUs (Mario, Marth, and Sheik I believe were the ones that were also hard but more winnable then the above ones)? Are they any better or worse? I'm think they might still be badish since they can still threaten his air-space and bomb-pulls good but still slightly better because of what, appears to be, a better punish game against them.

MK also seems like a pretty bad MU for him this patch, and I believe you agree judging from your post in the MK boards.

I'm just curious as to what you think about his MUs in 3.6 cause I've started thinking that Tink may be, overall, better as a secondary character then as a main since he does really good against a lot of random characters but losing pretty badly to a few certain key characters with a lot of popularity (at least where I live).

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Links MUs vs Fox/Falcon/Wolf/Falco are still -3 or -4. Toon Links punish game now has more use vs those characters, but he still has the same struggles in neutral that he did before due to his weakness in the DD mirror. Toon Links core as a character won't be changing from here on out, so you can expect most of his poor matchups to be dash dance related.

Haven't played vs. ROB but I'd assume it got better due to grounded side b and being able to combo him sort of(?) Kreygasm

I actually think mario might only be -1 now or something like that, I don't feel like we have the advantage but at the same time, we aren't nearly as unfortunate as we used to be (3.02 lol). Our general mobility and juggling game vs mario are still intact, so now it just revolves around one fact: can we deal with fireballs? I still don't really know the answer to that question due to the only mario I've played against being... Sethlon looooooooooool

marth is still -2, sword guy goes swoosh swoosh

sheik is -2 or -1, her punish game off of grabs is slightly worse, so being grabbed by her isn't nearly as big of a threat anymore. Overall, tinks bad MUs are still not in his favor, but most of them became less stressful.

Toonlinks definitely a dual main based character. He does incredibly well vs most of the characters in the cast, but his obvious -3 or worse matchups are way too important due to how relevant those characters are in the meta atm. I think hes "solo-mainable", but if you do that then you'll have to accept that you'll always be a tier 2 player. Its very hard to be a tier 1 player and solo main in PM unless you main fox in 3.6.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Super useful post. Marth feels so much better against those characters. But how do you deal with the mental burden of not always repping tink??

 

[Magu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAQmMBvT0yw

How do I beat M2K?
But really, I'm still a little sad over game two.


But watch the guy who loses, especially after the second match

Okay, let's start off with that M2K battle:
Do more Bomb Pulls and AGTs for recovery mixup. It is really, really easy for melee players to see an opertunity to shinespike somebody,, Really anybody who can gimp, could really just wave land off ledge and do an airial or upB to gimp you on any stages with triangle-shape.
Seccond thing i took notice of is that you do a lot of dairs without L-Cancelling! Learn to do that and also to gain spacing.
!!I do really like your chain-mixups!!
Also, there was a few times you took care of him (fx first set first stock) but seemed to loose focus as the croud started rooting for you, so you should try to get the basics in so you can run back and fourth out of battle, to sort if "reset" yourself. Remember, m2k has 11 years of coping with wild crouds and he has tought how to cope with them.

One other thing to keep in mind is that Mew2King developes and learns your style after one game. Mix your stuff up more, take advantage of the spaceies, and you need to win that first set!

THE LUIGI MATCH:
Here's me losing to our top melee player, a luigi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQwY7-r08Y

First thing i see is that your first and most important stock for having psycological advantage withers away for a poor ledge-hook.. Tinks recovery is really not any good without doing AGTs and Bomb Jumps! Learn your hook-range too, I can't rush this enough!
You can also use more arrows in neutral game as they have a really decent knock up, so you can get your dashdancing or a free bomb-pull!
Mix up that boomerang! It has a great potential for mindgames as a returning hitbox too! (FX: You can throw a bomb at the returning 'rang to make it bounce and Zgrab it in the air, then AGT forward and it is really confusing for oponents and it gives you so many options.)
((I DO really like your use of rang as a combo-starter, don't get me wrong! Just take more advantage of it))

Again; L-Cancel the down air!
Again; Luigi got a free gimp last stock first set

First stock of set two, you tried to regrab your bomb by AG it, but you can regrab if you press Z, then you can AGT once more.
!!You have a great set of Fair and Bair, GJ!!
Troughout this match you have started doing more AGTs and I'm glad you do! But at one point you have the perfect ability to wave dash x2 and grab ledge or at least toss up a bomb over the ledge to secure that kill!

HERE IS THE CF MATCH:
Check out me getting bodied by this awesome falcon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz3H5rl61F0

Two minutis into this vid and you are all of a sudden really, really good man! You wavedashes, L-Cancles, AGTs and everything! Congratulation, you have now gotten a good neutral game as TL!
You have good techs but you seem to get really easy punished for you missing your down aerials.
!!AMAZING WALK UP UP SMASH (4:30)!!

(I could'nt have beaten this falcon eighter btw,, he is great)
((this is amazing comentrary too))

I have'nt really got anything constructive to say, you are good!

This IKE match:
And against probably our best PM player, Just
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9omLyAmY5eU

Well, I personally think Ike is the worst matchup against toon link, so I play squirtle and I die without dignity..
However you seem to have really REALLY fun at this tourney and you are playing well, so I think you have gotten really far!

The last one you linked; The salty ROB
One of me winning for good measure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrNAuzjfHOI
But watch the guy who loses, especially after the second match

I wan't to attend tourneys in Colorado simplyy because of that ****ing commentrary!
Also, I have nothing to say, you are good! Forget everything I've said in the past!

This thing is one i stumbled over from july:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oobw7Am0nhc

You have cut your hair, started working out and you could start playing against Lunchables any day now!

 

[zman804]

What do you guys think is the best video to show someone who wants to know how fast/technical Tink can be? A set or techskill showoff.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Just do shfll nair > dash back > dash forward > shffl nair over and over as fast as you can. He'll see.


Thanks for the critique and compliments Magu! I wish I could get some new videos up but I haven't been to tournies in awhile.