Where would Ness and Lucas rank on Tier Lists if it wasn't for their infinites?

[MarKO X]

Marth may hold less importance as he seems to become less and less popular (in my area at least).

Off-topic, but is it because MK took his place?

 

[SH4D0W]

Tiers are for queers

 

[Nestec]

Lucas' PK thunder,you cant screw up his recovery nearly as easy as Ness',since Lucas' just passes through them.
With Ness,just jump off the ledge,get hit then Ness falls to his death.

If I'm not mistaken, you die then as well. If Ness is at a high enough percentage to have gotten knocked off that far, then his opponent must be at a high, if not higher, percentage as well.

Lucas probably will be higher than Ness, Lucas is just the better character.(inb4 someone gives me a wall-o-text on why im wrong)

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171897

They're roughly equal, actually. I'd be happy to hear your arguments, however. ^__^

 

[XienZo]

I think he means jumping off the ledge into the projectile, before the PKT2.

 

[thesage]

Off-topic, but is it because MK took his place?

Yes. Yes it is. Luckily Ness' matchup isn't as bad against MK. Considering how most people have him, it's not bad at all.

If you're going to say well MK has a super easy time gimping Ness, MK has a super easy time gimping EVERYBODY. It's ridiculous and dumb.

 

[Nestec]

@ Xien:

Hmm, you'll need to be quite fast to do that, however. I'm assuming that high-aerial-mobility characters such as Jigglypuff, Wario, or Yoshi (?) could pull it off. I'm not thinking that other characters can get out there fast enough (lol, this isn't Melee after all). It'd be a bit of a risk.

 

[Yuna]

His PK fire can lock you in itself long enough to get Fsmashed. All of his aerials are useful(he has a spike :D). My only complaint is that its too easy to mess up the recovery.

Maybe if Ness is at (or close to being at) point-blank range when he initiates PK Fire.

You must be joking... whether I am a good player is completely irrelevant to whether you should "consider [me] seriously". The only thing that actually matters is the substance of my posts. If you look back, you'll notice I've only made exactly one claim about my playing ability: that I regularly land pk thunder 2 against opponents who aren't idiots.

Yes, but then that begs the question:
How do you know they aren't idiots or just suck at the game? Unless you're a good player, you can't really tell whether another player is truly good or not.

Yes, a n00b can look at Mew2King and go "Hey, he's good". But he won't really know exactly why he's good, he won't be able to tell what it is Mew2King does that's so good.

Likewise, you claim the players you play aren't idiots... OK. But what if you're on such a level your "not an idiot" is my "an idiot"?

Your last sentence is an example of the sort of thing I am not saying... I am not saying "Ness is good because I say so and I am a good player". If I were saying that then you would be right to demand evidence that I am a good player, but I'm not saying that.

If Ness' prowess is in no way tied to your prowess, then the fact that you can regularly nail people with PKT2 is highly irrelevant.

So in other words, it doesn't matter if you can land PKT2 on the people you play. What matters is it many others can replicate the same feat (regularly).

Eh? Ok, please elaborate on this. Jump out and whack him? If he's that close to the stage, using PKT for recovery is not even necessary.

What else is he gonna do without a 2nd jump? Also, have you played Brawl? The game is so floaty and everyone's Up Bs are so good, Ness would have to be out of range of the stage itself (as in, he can't make it back using PKT2) in order for someone to not be able to just jump out and whack him or PKT1.

Now I can understand the Din's Fire strategy. But I do not see how one can nail Ness' PKT with any other projectile, especially considering its speed.

Predict it. Or just nail him with projectiles while he's off stage. I'm not saying he'll always get gimped by projectiles, but it's quite possible.

What I'm arguing is that PKT is not an awful move. Incredible? Maybe not. But it is useful.

Nobody ever said that it's an awful move (in this thread at least). It's just not "teh ****z".

Considering that Ness is very under-represented in tournaments, it's pretty safe to assume that many of the best players do not have any experience against a top Ness user.

How about you stop assuming things. The best of the best are at such a level where they can actually learn how to face characters simply through watching videos.

It's like Go players of a very high level. All they have to do is study game records (or chess). All Mew2King has to do is get the relevant frame data, watch some matches of really good Nesses and their strategies, try some stuff out as Ness himself and then use training mode, CPUs and lesser skilled Nesses to get some live practice in just to practice how to outspace/outprioritize/outrange/shield/whatever Ness' ****z.

Yes, the people at the top really are that good. No, it's not a perfect solution, but Mew2King will not randomly lose the first time he ever goes up against a good Ness simply for not having faced someone that good as Ness before (if he's done his homework).

Not to mention adaptation. The players at the top are very good at adapting. Yes, they might lose the first match. But they'll adapt. They'll learn how to beat the new strategies, combos and whatnots before them, unless, of course, the matchup is bad, in which case they're fighting an uphill battle to begin with.

And even more of them do not read about Ness PKT techniques.

Yes, you're obvious omniscient and know this. Hi, God.

They won't be able to sit at a computer screen and think of ways around the attack when it comes time to evade it.

How about they boot up their Wiis?

Now, I know you're probably gonna say that it's something you don't need to think about. But the average person will attempt to airdodge. The tail is much too long to be airdodged, you will be stunned by it if it comes near you.

We get stalled in the air when we airdodge since when? We airdodge and then aircontrol away. Or we just friggin' take the hit if we know that getting hit by the tail at that distance will guarantee Ness a PKT2.

I know the PKT2 kill will not always connect.

Try "not often".

But it is a good KO move, because it KOs at low percentages, has near unbeatable priority, and has a setup that is often difficult to escape.

The setup is highly situational. The rest can be said about Ike's Fsmash. It's even faster.

However, it is difficult to land, which is why it can be called situational, I suppose. But this one flaw does not make it a bad KO move.

No, it's not that it "can be called" situational. It is situational. And that's one serious flaw.

If Peach sweetspotted her Upsmash in Melee, she could kill every single character in the game below 100% (after the hit, which in itself inflcits 19%). Did we see Peaches running around winning tournaments using this godly Upsmash? No, because the sweetspot was friggin' hard to nail (and, yes, there were setups) and highly situational.

If I'm not mistaken, you die then as well. If Ness is at a high enough percentage to have gotten knocked off that far, then his opponent must be at a high, if not higher, percentage as well.

What the hell kind of logic is this? "If Ness is at 100%, obviously his opponent must be at 100% as well"? And what does that matter? Hitstun barely accumulates in this game because it's near-non-existent in the first place.

Also, since when does PKT1 have infinite stun? If I jump out and take PKT1 in the face, thus ensuring you cannot direct it into Ness to turn it into PKT2, you'll slowly fall to your doom while I'll eventually get out of hitstun and be able to recover using my Up B.

Yes. Yes it is. Luckily Ness' matchup isn't as bad against MK. Considering how most people have him, it's not bad at all.

If you're going to say well MK has a super easy time gimping Ness, MK has a super easy time gimping EVERYBODY. It's ridiculous and dumb.

Ness is easier to gimp than, say, Zelda, when recovering, though. Because it's slowish and predictable. With Zelda, it's faster and she can direct it in such a way that she barely has any landing lag at all upon landing. It's also quite fast once it activates and goes quite far, so you have to nail her either before she teleports or afterwards and you can never be in such a position you can do both (unless she teleported in such a way she suffers lag).

The same can be said about a lot of characters' recoveries. Many characters' Up Bs are quite fast, especially when compared to Ness' (and Lucas'), making it harder to gimp them.

 

[Nestec]

What else is he gonna do without a 2nd jump? Also, have you played Brawl? The game is so floaty and everyone's Up Bs are so good, Ness would have to be out of range of the stage itself (as in, he can't make it back using PKT2) in order for someone to not be able to just jump out and whack him or PKT1.

Jumping out to hit him is not as easy as you're making it out to be. PKT2 is not slow to activate. I'm not saying it's impossible to hit him while he's manuevering PKT, but it should not happen often, considering PKT's speed.

Predict it. Or just nail him with projectiles while he's off stage. I'm not saying he'll always get gimped by projectiles, but it's quite possible.

The same can be done to just about any other character. And only a few characters can do this to Ness successfully. Olimar, Dedede, Pit, maybe Mario...

Nobody ever said that it's an awful move (in this thread at least). It's just not "teh ****z".

DarkWashu called it bad. Not amazing, I suppose, but it's nowhere near bad.

How about you stop assuming things. The best of the best are at such a level where they can actually learn how to face characters simply through watching videos.

It's like Go players of a very high level. All they have to do is study game records (or chess). All Mew2King has to do is get the relevant frame data, watch some matches of really good Nesses and their strategies, try some stuff out as Ness himself and then use training mode, CPUs and lesser skilled Nesses to get some live practice in just to practice how to outspace/outprioritize/outrange/shield/whatever Ness' ****z.

Yes, the people at the top really are that good. No, it's not a perfect solution, but Mew2King will not randomly lose the first time he ever goes up against a good Ness simply for not having faced someone that good as Ness before (if he's done his homework).

Not to mention adaptation. The players at the top are very good at adapting. Yes, they might lose the first match. But they'll adapt. They'll learn how to beat the new strategies, combos and whatnots before them, unless, of course, the matchup is bad, in which case they're fighting an uphill battle to begin with.

Using that reasoning, no kill move in the game should ever connect. A pro should always know when to see it coming, and know how to avoid it, if what you're saying makes sense. Name a kill move that will connect regardless of whether or not the pro saw it coming.

Yes, you're obvious omniscient and know this. Hi, God.

You're missing the "ly" on "obviously". ^_______^
Just thought I'd help you there.

How about they boot up their Wiis?

Eh, I don't think you know what I meant. I meant during the heat of battle. The Wiis will already be turned on. -.-

We get stalled in the air when we airdodge since when? We airdodge and then aircontrol away. Or we just friggin' take the hit if we know that getting hit by the tail at that distance will guarantee Ness a PKT2.

Aircontrol away? Where? To the left/right? Where the tail will still stun you? A skilled Ness knows how to control PKT to hit you no matter what, whether it be the tail or the head.

What the hell kind of logic is this? "If Ness is at 100%, obviously his opponent must be at 100% as well"? And what does that matter? Hitstun barely accumulates in this game because it's near-non-existent in the first place.

Also, since when does PKT1 have infinite stun? If I jump out and take PKT1 in the face, thus ensuring you cannot direct it into Ness to turn it into PKT2, you'll slowly fall to your doom while I'll eventually get out of hitstun and be able to recover using my Up B.

So you're assuming that the Ness sucks and wouldn't be able to have dished over 70% before being knocked off the stage?

And btw, I was stating that the enemy would die if they tried to stop PKT2 by getting hit by it. If that's not what DarkWashu meant in his last post, then my bad.

 

[Yuna]

Jumping out to hit him is not as easy as you're making it out to be. PKT2 is not slow to activate.

I'd love to play the hacked version of Brawl you must be playing.

I'm not saying it's impossible to hit him while he's manuevering PKT, but it should not happen often, considering PKT's speed.

It's possible often enough. We also have something called keeping track of whether or not Ness still has his 2nd jump and predicting what he's going to do. Predict that he's going to use PKT2 (which is a no-brainer if he's also lost his 2nd jump and can't possibly make it back using his 2nd jump alone) and you'll be able to jump out and whack him before he's even half-way through PKT1:ing.

The same can be done to just about any other character. And only a few characters can do this to Ness successfully. Olimar, Dedede, Pit, maybe Mario...

Everyone can do it unless he's so far out they have to sacrifice their 2nd jumps to do it. And not every character has an Up B as slow to activate as Ness'. There's Lucas and (depending on how far away from the edge he is) Diddy Kong... that's pretty much it (Ike has Super Armor).

DarkWashu called it bad. Not amazing, I suppose, but it's nowhere near bad.

Wow, one person called it bad.

Using that reasoning, no kill move in the game should ever connect.

I'm sorry, I said "never connects" when?

A pro should always know when to see it coming, and know how to avoid it, if what you're saying makes sense.

There's something called, you know, mindgames.

Name a kill move that will connect regardless of whether or not the pro saw it coming.

PKT2 can be avoided on reaction. You cannot "surprise" someone with PKT2 out of the blue. You cannot just PKT2 someone in the face without them actually seeing it coming first. PKT1 isn't even that fast.

Any move that's faster than 18 frames cannot be reacted to. The human mind has a reaction time of approximately 12 frames, at the fastest. The shield comes up in 3 frames (I believe). I threw in an additional 3 frames for actually pressing the shield-button (airdodges have more startup, I think).

You cannot see Snake's Up-tilt coming. Of course, you can predict he'll probably throw it out if you're in range, but you cannot block/avoid it on pure reaction. You can however do that for PKT2 unless you get Prayed or Tailwhipped (please correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology) into it.

You're missing the "ly" on "obviously". ^_______^
Just thought I'd help you there.

Horrible! Oh my God, I made a typo!

Eh, I don't think you know what I meant. I meant during the heat of battle. The Wiis will already be turned on. -.-

Adaptation, the thing I mentioned later in that very same post.

Aircontrol away? Where? To the left/right? Where the tail will still stun you? A skilled Ness knows how to control PKT to hit you no matter what, whether it be the tail or the head.

A skilled player will know when to airdodge and when to not and just take the friggin' hit (headon and not by the tail).

It's called... mindgames.

So you're assuming that the Ness sucks and wouldn't be able to have dished over 70% before being knocked off the stage?

I'm assuming that nothing is certain. Even in a match between the Top 2 in the entire world, one player could easily dish out 70% before the other side dishes out even 20%.

Both players aren't even of equal skill in most matches. Matches do not always end with the same amount of stocks and roughly the same percentage.

And btw, I was stating that the enemy would die if they tried to stop PKT2 by getting hit by it.

Who the hell would try to stop PKT2 by getting hit by it?! It's impossible. You stop PKT2 from even engaging by getting hit by (or hitting) PKT1.

 

[Levitas]

On a more hilarious note, Scotu's edgeguarded my Ness by getting hit by PKT2 (tried to absorb the bolt before it hit ness, and wallteched the blast. I died because Ness's PKT2 is lame like that, making it a successful edgeguard.

 

[Nestec]

It's possible often enough. We also have something called keeping track of whether or not Ness still has his 2nd jump and predicting what he's going to do. Predict that he's going to use PKT2 (which is a no-brainer if he's also lost his 2nd jump and can't possible make it back using his 2nd jump alone) and you'll be able to jump out and whack him before he's even half-way through PKT1:ing.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. Aerial movement is slow, PKT is fast. And even moreso, if Ness drops below stage level, and the enemy attempts to jump out to hit him, Ness is protected by PKT's long tail.

Everyone can do it unless he's so far out they have to sacrifice their 2nd jumps to do it.

Gimping with a projectile? No, not everyone can do it. Some don't have projectiles.

Wow, one person called it bad.

And only one person called it his best move.
I was enlightening him that it was not a bad move. Is it that a crime?

I'm sorry, I said "never connects" when?

My point was that if pros are so good, then that makes just about every KO move "situational and unreliable".

There's something called, you know, mindgames.

Which PKT2 kills normally consist of.

PKT2 can be avoided on reaction. You cannot "surprise" someone with PKT2 out of the blue. You cannot just PKT2 someone in the face without them actually seeing it coming first. PKT1 isn't even that fast.

Any move that's faster than 18 frames cannot be reacted to. The human mind has a reaction time of approximately 12 frames, at the fastest. The shield comes up in 3 frames (I believe). I threw in an additional 3 frames for actually pressing the shield-button (airdodges have more startup, I think).

You cannot see Snake's Up-tilt coming. Of course, you can predict he'll probably throw it out if you're in range, but you cannot see it coming.

Well duh, no one can see into the future. That's what predicting is. If your damage is high, and Snake is standing in range of Utilt, you can predict he will Utilt, and dodge out of the way. Snake's Utilt does not have a wide moving, high-priority hitbox that stuns you when you touch it. Nor does any setup into the Utilt.

Horrible! Oh my God, I made a typo!

It's okay, I'll spare you. ^_^

A skilled player will know when to airdodge and when to not and just take the friggin' hit (headon and not by the tail).

It's called... mindgames.

A PKT can easily penetrate an airdodge. The mention of mindgames only further proves my point.

I'm assuming that nothing is certain. Even in a match between the Top 2 in the entire world, one player could easily dish out 70% before the other side dishes out even 20%.

Both players aren't even of equal skill in most matches. Matches do not always end with the same amount of stocks and roughly the same percentage.

Nothing is certain? Therefore, it's possible that someone in the Top 2 has no familiarity with Ness PKT mindgames. That someone can quite easily be PKT2'd then.

Who the hell would try to stop PKT2 by getting hit by it?! It's impossible. You stop PKT2 from even engaging by getting hit by (or hitting) PKT1.

IIRC, getting hit by PKT2 ends its travel.
And like said, I assumed that was what DarkWashu was implying.

 

[Darkwashu]

If I'm not mistaken, you die then as well. If Ness is at a high enough percentage to have gotten knocked off that far, then his opponent must be at a high, if not higher, percentage as well.

Cant you just use yer double jump?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171897


They're roughly equal, actually. I'd be happy to hear your arguments, however. ^__^

I said "inb4 wall-o-text" XP
But just by skimming through you're wall-o-text,PK Flash is NOT better than PK Freeze.
PK Freeze surprisingly,can kill at low percents for me.
Throw them off the ledge,than PK Freeze em.
Its not the most reliable or best killer,because its situational,but eh.
PK Flash is only good when they are falling,so its also situational.


Also,considering I use Lucas for like 2/4 of all my matches unless im training,I find his AAA combo great for spacing.Then again,I find Lucas good at spacing in general,like I think you said in yer wall-o-text.
"Lucas is a ranged fighter who pokes damage at you little by little."

Also,Lucas' PK thunder 2 going farther is a good thing,you made it sound bad!


"Fsmash, dsmash, uair, bair, nair, dair, PKT2, PK Flash and his bthrow" you said are Ness' kill moves.
Only the Fmash,uair,bair(sweet spotting is easy)and Bthrow are reliable.
I found his Dmshas unable to kill at like 160% on a Falco,or am I thinking of his usmash?
I gotta check that....

"Fair, bair, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, dthrow, PKT2, and PKT" you said are Lucas' kill moves.
Surprisingly,Psi Magnet kills at me thinks 90%.

Also,you didnt even mention Flash Jump,a Lucas' recovery technique that you use PKF and his Double Jump at the same time,with good timing,with his first jump and a timed Flash Jump,you can go to the top of Final Destination to the point where Lucas is off-screen,without even using PK thunder(You can still use it!).
So Lucas has much more recovery options.

 

[Nestec]

Cant you just use yer double jump?

We're assuming Ness has lost it.

I said "inb4 wall-o-text" XP
But just by skimming through you're wall-o-text,PK Flash is NOT better than PK Freeze.
PK Freeze surprisingly,can kill at low percents for me.
Throw them off the ledge,than PK Freeze em.
Its not the most reliable or best killer,because its situational,but eh.
PK Flash is only good when they are falling,so its also situational.


Also,considering I use Lucas for like 2/4 of all my matches unless im training,I find his AAA combo great for spacing.Then again,I find Lucas good at spacing in general,like I think you said in yer wall-o-text.
"Lucas is a ranged fighter who pokes damage at you little by little."

Also,Lucas' PK thunder 2 going farther is a good thing,you made it sound bad!


"Fsmash, dsmash, uair, bair, nair, dair, PKT2, PK Flash and his bthrow" you said are Ness' kill moves.
Only the Fmash,uair,bair(sweet spotting is easy)and Bthrow are reliable.
I found his Dmshas unable to kill at like 160% on a Falco,or am I thinking of his usmash?
I gotta check that....

"Fair, bair, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, dthrow, PKT2, and PKT" you said are Lucas' kill moves.
Surprisingly,Psi Magnet kills at me thinks 90%.

Also,you didnt even mention Flash Jump,a Lucas' recovery technique that you use PKF and his Double Jump at the same time,with good timing,with his first jump and a timed Flash Jump,you can go to the top of Final Destination to the point where Lucas is off-screen,without even using PK thunder(You can still use it!).
So Lucas has much more recovery options.

Oh, no no, those weren't my words. It was EB360 who made the topic/guide.

Yah, Lucas' recovery is good, even without the ZapJump. I think he was stating that it would be easy to suicide if used on stage though.

And yeah, PSI Magnet for Lucas is surprisingly strong, lol.

 

[Yuna]

Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. Aerial movement is slow, PKT is fast. And even moreso, if Ness drops below stage level, and the enemy attempts to jump out to hit him, Ness is protected by PKT's long tail.

So we're assuming that every single time Ness PKT1's, the opponent is directly above his head?

How the Hell is Ness able to use PKT1's long tail to protect himself and to recover at the same time?!

Gimping with a projectile? No, not everyone can do it. Some don't have projectiles.

I said projectiles when? Every single character can gimp his recovery. Some just have an easier time doing it.

And only one person called it his best move.

And I never claimed anyone besides that person did. I never even made an issue out of it other than when arguing that one person.

I was enlightening him that it was not a bad move. Is it that a crime?

You did more than that, you heavily exaggerated.

My point was that if pros are so good, then that makes just about every KO move "situational and unreliable".

No, because PKT2 is much more situational and unreliable than the vast majority of KO moves in this game.

Which PKT2 kills normally consist of.

Only it's very situational and uncommon because really good players will have the mindgames to not get hit by PKT2.

Well duh, no one can see into the future. That's what predicting is. If your damage is high, and Snake is standing in range of Utilt, you can predict he will Utilt, and dodge out of the way. Snake's Utilt does not have a wide moving, high-priority hitbox that stuns you when you touch it. Nor does any setup into the Utilt.

Only you do not need to predict PKT2.

A PKT can easily penetrate an airdodge. The mention of mindgames only further proves my point.

No it can't.

Nothing is certain? Therefore, it's possible that someone in the Top 2 has no familiarity with Ness PKT mindgames. That someone can quite easily be PKT2'd then.

...
"It works if the opponent is unfamiliar with it."

IIRC, getting hit by PKT2 ends its travel.
And like said, I assumed that was what DarkWashu was implying.

This video disagrees.

 

[Darkwashu]

We're assuming Ness has lost it.


.

I mean,say Ness is recovering,one can walk off the ledge,get hit by PK thunder1,and then Ness falls to his death. Then you can use yer double jump to get back to stage.
Sure,you might take some damage,but taking some damage > Ness coming back to stage.

 

[Nestec]

So we're assuming that every single time Ness PKT1's, the opponent is directly above his head?

How the Hell is Ness able to use PKT1's long tail to protect himself and to recover at the same time?!

No, only when Ness drops below the stage. If the opponent jumps out to attack him, they will be above Ness' head.
And the protecting+recovering happens because while Ness is bringing the PKT around his small body, quite quickly might I add, part of the tail is still coming out of his head, roughly 70% of the time it takes for Ness to hit himself from below.

I said projectiles when? Every single character can gimp his recovery. Some just have an easier time doing it.

"Predict it. Or just nail him with projectiles while he's off stage. I'm not saying he'll always get gimped by projectiles, but it's quite possible."

You said this earlier. And yes, every character can, not every character will. Nothing is certain, remember?

And I never claimed anyone besides that person did. I never even made an issue out of it other than when arguing that one person.

Neither did I. It doesn't matter. You pointed out that it was unnecessary to state that PKT isn't bad. I showed you why it was necessary to state that. That should be end of story there.

You did more than that, you heavily exaggerated.

And that's opinion. "Heavily exaggerating" to you may be what I must do in order to prove my point.

No, because PKT2 is much more situational and unreliable than the vast majority of KO moves in this game.

How so? All KO moves require that the enemy be in a specific range, at a specific positioning.

Only it's very situational and uncommon because really good players will have the mindgames to not get hit by PKT2.

You know this why? Sounds to me like you're God, not me.

Only you do not need to predict PKT2.

Then what must you do? Not get caught in the PKT tail? That's more difficult than not getting into Snake's Utilt range.

No it can't.

Yes it can.

...
"It works if the opponent is unfamiliar with it."

So we're just gonna assume he is? Ok, then let's assume Ness can deal out 70% damage before being knocked off the stage.

This video disagrees.

Then I am mistaken, and so is EB360's Ness vs Lucas guide...

 

[Brinzy]

I said "inb4 wall-o-text" XP
But just by skimming through you're wall-o-text,PK Flash is NOT better than PK Freeze.
PK Freeze surprisingly,can kill at low percents for me.
Throw them off the ledge,than PK Freeze em.
Its not the most reliable or best killer,because its situational,but eh.
PK Flash is only good when they are falling,so its also situational.

PK Flash can kill at even lower damages.

Throw them off the ledge, then PK Flash 'em.

It's not the most reliable or best killing move, because it's situational, but eh.

PK Freeze is only good at freezing and pressuring.



You can use virtually the same reasons why you said that Freeze > Flash... which means that they're not good reasons.

Then what must you do? Not get caught in the PKT tail? That's more difficult than not getting into Snake's Utilt range.

lol, no it's not. Dodge away from the thunder the first time, and if the Ness sends it at you, dodge again. PK Thunder should have disappeared by now.

Come on, you're a Ness player too. You and I know that PKT, tail included, isn't hard to dodge.

 

[Nestec]

I mean,say Ness is recovering,one can walk off the ledge,get hit by PK thunder1,and then Ness falls to his death. Then you can use yer double jump to get back to stage.
Sure,you might take some damage,but taking some damage > Ness coming back to stage.

Ah, yeah, that works. Sorry, I thought you had meant getting hit by PKT2. >_<

 

[Darkwashu]

PK Flash can kill at even lower damages.

Throw them off the ledge, then PK Flash 'em.

It's not the most reliable or best killing move, because it's situational, but eh.

PK Freeze is only good at freezing and pressuring.



You can use virtually the same reasons why you said that Freeze > Flash... which means that they're not good reasons.

Except,PK Flash is VERY slow,it takes much longer to get PK Flash to yer enemy,than PK Freeze.

 

[Nestec]

lol, no it's not. Dodge away from the thunder the first time, and if the Ness sends it at you, dodge again. PK Thunder should have disappeared by now.

Come on, you're a Ness player too. You and I know that PKT, tail included, isn't hard to dodge.

Eh, lol, actually I was assuming that Ness and enemy were airborne.

 

[Brinzy]

Except,PK Flash is VERY slow,it takes much longer to get PK Flash to yer enemy,than PK Freeze.

First off, both of them are slow to fully charge up. The only time you're going to fully charge them is when you edgeguard characters who have to recover at the ledge or just above the ledge. It doesn't matter if Ness's takes like a second longer to charge. Get them off the edge and immediately use PK Flash or wait a second and use Freeze. It really doesn't matter that PK Freeze charges a second faster than Flash because, as I've said, both are used for edgeguarding. Besides, both of them fully charged, PK Flash does 40ish% and usually kills while PK Freeze does 20ish% and needs to have PK Thunder to follow up for it to be significantly comparable to Flash in terms of fully charged up results.

Second, PK Flash comes out above Ness and detonates faster than Freeze does. You CAN use PK Flash uncharged. You can use PK Freeze uncharged as well, but it doesn't protect Lucas from enemies perfectly lined up above him if you press B and B only. So basically, uncharged, PK Flash > PK Freeze, and I'm sure most Ness and Lucas players would agree on that.

Really, the only things PK Freeze has over Flash are long range (like opponents can't just airdodge either one and recover from below, where you're really supposed to be trying to hit it), being able to freeze (which is the only thing that really give it any more merit), and charge up speed (which doesn't really answer for much for the reason I stated earlier).

Eh, lol, actually I was assuming that Ness and enemy were airborne.

So was I. Dodge away = air-dodge and hold away from PK Thunder (which is probably circling just to prevent people from going THROUGH it, so just go AROUND it).

 

[Nestec]

So was I. Dodge away = air-dodge and hold away from PK Thunder (which is probably circling just to prevent people from going THROUGH it, so just go AROUND it).

Whoa, sorry, I don't get it...Are you saying as in the enemy being above Ness? That's what I was implying.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, above. They don't have to be directly above Ness, but above nonetheless. It's not hard to dodge PKT if he decided to throw it out after you if you airdodge and just hold away from it instead of trying to go through it, and it only takes like two airdodges (the second being easier because the first forces the PKT to go AT you, rendering the tail nigh useless).

 

[Darkwashu]

First off, both of them are slow to fully charge up. The only time you're going to fully charge them is when you edgeguard characters who have to recover at the ledge or just above the ledge. It doesn't matter if Ness's takes like a second longer to charge. Get them off the edge and immediately use PK Flash or wait a second and use Freeze. It really doesn't matter that PK Freeze charges a second faster than Flash because, as I've said, both are used for edgeguarding. Besides, both of them fully charged, PK Flash does 40ish% and usually kills while PK Freeze does 20ish% and needs to have PK Thunder to follow up for it to be significantly comparable to Flash in terms of fully charged up results.

Second, PK Flash comes out above Ness and detonates faster than Freeze does. You CAN use PK Flash uncharged. You can use PK Freeze uncharged as well, but it doesn't protect Lucas from enemies perfectly lined up above him if you press B and B only. So basically, uncharged, PK Flash > PK Freeze, and I'm sure most Ness and Lucas players would agree on that.

Really, the only things PK Freeze has over Flash are long range (like opponents can't just airdodge either one and recover from below, where you're really supposed to be trying to hit it), being able to freeze (which is the only thing that really give it any more merit), and charge up speed (which doesn't really answer for much for the reason I stated earlier).

.

I meant movement wise.
Lucas can be away from the ledge and use PK Freeze,while Ness has to run up to the ledge to use it.

I have landed PK Flash a few times,and it near always killed them.
However,I have landed Pk Freeze MANY more times then PK Flas,but considering I use Lucas many more times than Ness,I cant really say.

Yes,uncharged Flash is better,everything else is Lucas.
Lucas is good at spacing,which is what PK Freeze does.

 

[Brinzy]

I meant movement wise.
Lucas can be away from the ledge and use PK Freeze,while Ness has to run up to the ledge to use it.

I have landed PK Flash a few times,and it near always killed them.
However,I have landed Pk Freeze MANY more times then PK Flas,but considering I use Lucas many more times than Ness,I cant really say.

Yes,uncharged Flash is better,everything else is Lucas.
Lucas is good at spacing,which is what PK Freeze does.

Are you kidding me? Standing by the very edge, PK Flash can almost go off screen when fully charged. You don't need to stand by the edge to use it. In fact, PK Freeze can't even completely go off screen before detonating. Their range is virtually even. The only time range really helps is when pressuring, since it's not really a good idea to throw out either move when the person can just run up and hit you... so you need to space yourself as much as possible in a situation like that, and really, you're rarely going to use either move like that.

Yeah, I can't really say either. When I used to play Lucas, I landed PK Freeze at a decent rate. I land PK Flash at a better rate, though it could just be from having played him more and having incorporated it more into my playstyle than I did with PK Freeze.

PK Freeze does not space, at all. Lucas will space himself for PK Freeze, not the other way around.

 

[Darkwashu]

Are you kidding me? Standing by the very edge, PK Flash can almost go off screen when fully charged. You don't need to stand by the edge to use it. In fact, PK Freeze can't even completely go off screen before detonating. Their range is virtually even. The only time range really helps is when pressuring, since it's not really a good idea to throw out either move when the person can just run up and hit you... so you need to space yourself as much as possible in a situation like that, and really, you're rarely going to use either move like that.

Yeah, I can't really say either. When I used to play Lucas, I landed PK Freeze at a decent rate. I land PK Flash at a better rate, though it could just be from having played him more and having incorporated it more into my playstyle than I did with PK Freeze.

PK Flash moves slower than PK Freeze,thats what im getting at.
Everyone can agree on that.

PK Freeze does not space, at all. Lucas will space himself for PK Freeze, not the other way around.

Thats what I meant,I gotta be more specific with my words...

 

[Brinzy]

Well alright, when you take those two points into consideration, then yes, PK Freeze wins in both places there... but does it win overall? I'm pressed to just flat out say, "No", but the freezing ability sets up for a nice PK Thunder kill, so maybe it's not too bad...

 

[Yuna]

No, only when Ness drops below the stage. If the opponent jumps out to attack him, they will be above Ness' head.
And the protecting+recovering happens because while Ness is bringing the PKT around his small body, quite quickly might I add, part of the tail is still coming out of his head, roughly 70% of the time it takes for Ness to hit himself from below.

If you're above Ness when PK Thunder comes out while he's recovering, he dies.

It's only if you mistime it that you get hit by the tail. I've never argued that you can gimp him every single time. But this doesn't mean PKT1 is a great attack that's easy to hit with.

You said this earlier. And yes, every character can, not every character will. Nothing is certain, remember?

I never said "will", no. But it's quite easy.

And that's opinion. "Heavily exaggerating" to you may be what I must do in order to prove my point.

Exaggeration bordering on lies.

How so? All KO moves require that the enemy be in a specific range, at a specific positioning.

But they aren't slow as heck.

You know this why? Sounds to me like you're God, not me.

The game itself. If it's so easy, how come it's so uncommon at higher levels of play?

Then what must you do? Not get caught in the PKT tail? That's more difficult than not getting into Snake's Utilt range.

No it isn't. You have a choice. If you cannot avoid the tail, then you just get hit by the head. A little percentage is better than dying.

Yes it can.

Obviously because you say so.

So we're just gonna assume he is? Ok, then let's assume Ness can deal out 70% damage before being knocked off the stage.

...

Then I am mistaken, and so is EB360's Ness vs Lucas guide...

And you're the Ness mainer. Funny.

 

[ColinJF]

EB360's guide actually is wrong about pk thunder 2 ending when it hits something, and I even replied to that topic correcting him a while ago. What actually happens is that if you hit a target with the sweetspot of pk thunder 2, Ness doesn't travel past the sweetspot distance (which is half the total distance of pk thunder 2). So if you hit a target with the very end of the sweetspot, he does stop, but that isn't generally the case.

Also pk flash and pk freeze both suck, but at least pk flash is actually good when you land it... you can get out of pk freeze so fast that it's not even ****ing when you land it. Pk flash at least makes a good move for broken shields (since it won't be stale, unlike your other possible kill moves); pk freeze doesn't kill very early so it's not even good for that.

Jumping into the head of pk thunder to gimp his recovery is kind of rare, by the way, because generally you want to use pk thunder 2 from a distance such that if they jump out, they won't make it in time, and this can be accomplished from a variety of angles (such as recovering straight up below the ledge if necessary). Good Ness players know the correct position to start using pk thunder from. It's actually easier to edgeguard Ness conventionally than to get hit by the head of pk thunder to gimp him.

 

[Brinzy]

Rare or not, it's simple to do. That's the point that's being made here.

 

[thesage]

Why is this being argued about here. The topic is discuss the Marth infinite's effect on Ness' and Lucas' placement in the tiers. Not comparing them, not about how easy it is to edgeguard them. Make topics in the character boards if you wanna discuss this.

If you're above anyone while they're recovering they're screwed, unless they are MK, then you're screwed.

The best way to edgeguard Ness is by hogging the ledge, forcing him to land on stage or bounce off the ledge. Eating his pkt is simply too risky most of the time. Some moves (notably Falco's dair can go through the non sweetspot pkt, mk's neutral b outprioritizes even the sweetspot). People with projectiles can even shoten his pkt2 range.

 

[Nestec]

Exaggeration bordering on lies.

I told lies? When?

But they aren't slow as heck.

Regardless, a highly skilled player should see them coming and know not to get in the range of vulnerability when at dangerous percentages.

The game itself. If it's so easy, how come it's so uncommon at higher levels of play?

Ness himself is uncommon. If there were as many Nesses as, say, Falcos in tourneys, I'm sure that PKT2 kills would be seen at high levels of play much more often.

No it isn't. You have a choice. If you cannot avoid the tail, then you just get hit by the head. A little percentage is better than dying.

PKT has more control than an aerial opponent. It is faster, and will steer its tail into you before you can steer yourself into the head.

Obviously because you say so.

The same can be said to you.

And you're the Ness mainer. Funny.

I don't know because I've never faced an opponent that attempted to stop the travel of PKT2. And when it connects on stage, I'm too busy celebrating to see whether or not my PKT2 was stopped.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You can lessen the distance that PKT2 travels do not believe you can stop it. I haven't attempted to anyway <_<

 

[Yuna]

I told lies? When?

Every other post probably. Like the many times you claim PKT2 and PKT1 are fast.

Regardless, a highly skilled player should see them coming and know not to get in the range of vulnerability when at dangerous percentages.

"I'm in the KO range. He'll probably start using KO moves on my now!" - Yeah, so what? You cannot avoid getting hit at all times. Because then matches would always end with both sides having 0%.

Most KO moves are so fast one cannot avoid them on reaction alone. PKT2 is so slow one can. I don't understand why you would try to argue this.

PKT2 is slow.

Ness himself is uncommon. If there were as many Nesses as, say, Falcos in tourneys, I'm sure that PKT2 kills would be seen at high levels of play much more often.

You contradict yourself. Since Ness is so uncommon, few people should know how to counter PKT1 and PKT2 mindgames.

Thus, PKT2 should hit more often than it is today, where even the best of the best aren't able to consistently hit good players with PKT2.

PKT has more control than an aerial opponent. It is faster, and will steer its tail into you before you can steer yourself into the head.

It's faster than 3-frame aerials that'll whack it out of existence?

The same can be said to you.

When I say things, I elaborate. I don't just say "It's like this".

I don't know because I've never faced an opponent that attempted to stop the travel of PKT2. And when it connects on stage, I'm too busy celebrating to see whether or not my PKT2 was stopped.

...

 

[Uffe]

Every other post probably. Like the many times you claim PKT2 and PKT1 are fast.

Wow. Doesn't sound like you come across Ness much. PKT and PKT2 are fast.

"I'm in the KO range. He'll probably start using KO moves on my now!" - Yeah, so what? You cannot avoid getting hit at all times. Because then matches would always end with both sides having 0%.

For Ness a KO move really isn't neccessary. If the one playing as Ness gets you up to a decent percent he can just grab you and toss you out of the stage. You can go ahead and DI that, though. But ask yourself this, which direction is Ness going to throw me? Is he going to go for the insta-kill or is he going to put you in a different position and land something more classy? Also don't bother saying to avoid the grabs because it's not as easy as it sounds.

Most KO moves are so fast one cannot avoid them on reaction alone. PKT2 is so slow one can. I don't understand why you would try to argue this.

PKT2 is slow.

Again, PKT2 isn't slow. Perhaps the Ness' you're fighting make that attack so obvious. I've fought so many people who foolishly see PKT2 as useless, least expect it and then suddenly die because of it. Just a few days back I was fighting this Pit main who was kicking my *** so hard, both of us got down to one stock and you wanna know how he died? PKT2. Mind games, son!

You contradict yourself. Since Ness is so uncommon, few people should know how to counter PKT1 and PKT2 mindgames.

Thus, PKT2 should hit more often than it is today, where even the best of the best aren't able to consistently hit good players with PKT2.

That's because the best of the best aren't stupid enough to use PKT2 alone.

When I say things, I elaborate. I don't just say "It's like this".

But he's kind of right. You make it sound as if you're always correct. I couldn't care less if you've been here for so long and such that you think you have all the knowledge of a game that has only been out for about six months.

 

[Yuna]

Wow. Doesn't sound like you come across Ness much. PKT and PKT2 are fast.

No matter how good the Ness is, PKT2 will never be fast.

For Ness a KO move really isn't neccessary. If the one playing as Ness gets you up to a decent percent he can just grab you and toss you out of the stage. You can go ahead and DI that, though. But ask yourself this, which direction is Ness going to throw me? Is he going to go for the insta-kill or is he going to put you in a different position and land something more classy? Also don't bother saying to avoid the grabs because it's not as easy as it sounds.

This has absolutely nothing with anything I've said. Some people are claiming that PKT2 is a reliable KO move that you can hit "quite often" (or whatever they said). I'm challenging that notion.

Whether Ness has other KO options is irrelevant as it's not part of the discussion at hand.

Again, PKT2 isn't slow. Perhaps the Ness' you're fighting make that attack so obvious.

Pray tell, how do you magically make it fast?

I've fought so many people who foolishly see PKT2 as useless, least expect it and then suddenly die because of it.

It's slow...

Just a few days back I was fighting this Pit main who was kicking my *** so hard, both of us got down to one stock and you wanna know how he died? PKT2. Mind games, son!

Wow, great. One player got hit by PKT2 once. Wheee.

That's because the best of the best aren't stupid enough to use PKT2 alone.

But it's situational... and slow...

But he's kind of right. You make it sound as if you're always correct. I couldn't care less if you've been here for so long and such that you think you have all the knowledge of a game that has only been out for about six months.

Booting up the game and playing Ness for 5 minutes will tell you, among other things, that PKT2 is slow.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yuna - while I absolutely agree with you, watch out for the moderator Simna ibn Sind. We had a Lucario mainer banned for disagreeing with him over PKT2 in the Ness matchup discussion.

 

[rathy Aro]

Why do people agree with yuna over ness mains..... like Simna.... How can every single ness main be delusional and biased? Disregarding all arguments, the ness mains are more likely to be right about a move they probably encounter more (since they use it and all >.>) than Yuna, etc. who probably don't play many high level ness mains (and yes, that is relevant...).

Considering the arguments I would still agree with the ness mains (though I may be biased due to the fact that I consider them authorities on ness), because they've clearly explained and shown how PKT2 can hit.

"Its slow" is just as subjective as "its not slow". On the point both of those aren't very specific either. Yes PKT1 doesn't come out in 1 frame, but it moves quickly in the air. And yes, from when a ness player presses Up+B to when PKT2's hitboxes appear is a very long time, but PKT1 does not necesarily have to lead to PKT2 so you can't predict is based on just that. Also PKT1's head moves very fast so it can harass and set up for PKT2 ,which can have its angle changed extremely fast since the head is so quick.

My last paragraph may be flawed since I don't play against any Nesses and I don't know much about them, but I've followed this same argument for a little bit now.

 

[cutter]

Yuna - while I absolutely agree with you, watch out for the moderator Simna ibn Sind. We had a Lucario mainer banned for disagreeing with him over PKT2 in the Ness matchup discussion.

lol sounds like mod abuse.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

All Ness mains are biased because they main Ness. I couldn't hope to tell you the Pikachu v. Lucario matchup BECAUSE I main both characters. Also, the Lucario boards have a bad taste in their mouths after Sinma banned a dissenter during the Ness matchup discussion.

EDIT: And yes, it was most likely an example of mod abuse. Although the Lucario boards would get ticked by a Mod doing their job - We love our spam threads. Incidently, I would like to thank the Lucario board moderator for NOT shutting down our spammy threads. The lack of supervision really helps our boards be entertaining.