Whats with the camping?

[Overswarm]

I'm gonna go ahead and give everyone a quick rundown of what the best strategy in the game is, because it isn't "camping". Camping makes you lose against anyone halfway decent. Even if they aren't halfway decent and they play with someone that camps, you'll be destroyed. People just suck at Brawl right now.

Best strategy?

Forcing your opponent to be in a vulnerable position.

This can include getting JUST within range and moving in and out forcing them to whiff an attack, causing them to shield so you can grab, shooting projectiles, faking a laggy attack (like Ike's forward air, which looks like it might have a lot of lag but doesn't, or auto-canceling some of Snake's aerials), or even just getting to a good position on the stage.

When you are on offense, you have to COMMIT to what you are doing. That's what makes you vulnerable.

Certain characters, like Marth, Metaknight, and Wario, can approach without putting themselves into this position due to range, priority, and/or speed. This makes these characters different to play against than the rest (especially MK, who has 0 lag for some reason).

What makes camping different than forcing your opponent to be in a vulnerable position (in camping's case, making your opponent approach)?

Camping is a strategy designed around the idea of not fighting. Shooting lasers, throwing gyros, running away and shooting arrows, etc., etc., etc.

You can get around camping easily; it took me about an hour to figure out what to do against my own strategies, and took my roomate a day to implement them. I can no longer effectively camp, and he's bad at Brawl.

What I CAN do is shoot projectiles from afar and force him to get into a vulnerable position.

It was the same way in Melee. Fox's would routinely shoot lasers at a Peach, forcing them to approach, only for the Peach to be drillshined or grabbed.


If you're upset about people beating you because they used a lot of "in and out" attacks, hit your shield just out of range, or stood just out of your range and waited for you to attack... then you probably weren't very good at Melee because that's what the entire cast did except for Falco and Fox, who had their shines.

Man up and stop using this thread for complaining and start discussing what camping strategies have worked, why they worked, and what you can do about it.

 

[Froth]

No one even camps at all. That's because in Brawl, waiting by one edge of the stage and spamming a move isn't considered camping, it's called Tech Skill.

"Dude, your DDD is MADDD technical."

"Thanks, I probably threw over 50 Waddle Dees on my first stock before I took any damage."

Wow...

 

[hoopspr226]

I'm gonna go ahead and give everyone a quick rundown of what the best strategy in the game is, because it isn't "camping". Camping makes you lose against anyone halfway decent. Even if they aren't halfway decent and they play with someone that camps, you'll be destroyed. People just suck at Brawl right now.

Best strategy?

Forcing your opponent to be in a vulnerable position.

This can include getting JUST within range and moving in and out forcing them to whiff an attack, causing them to shield so you can grab, shooting projectiles, faking a laggy attack (like Ike's forward air, which looks like it might have a lot of lag but doesn't, or auto-canceling some of Snake's aerials), or even just getting to a good position on the stage.

When you are on offense, you have to COMMIT to what you are doing. That's what makes you vulnerable.

Certain characters, like Marth, Metaknight, and Wario, can approach without putting themselves into this position due to range, priority, and/or speed. This makes these characters different to play against than the rest (especially MK, who has 0 lag for some reason).

What makes camping different than forcing your opponent to be in a vulnerable position (in camping's case, making your opponent approach)?

Camping is a strategy designed around the idea of not fighting. Shooting lasers, throwing gyros, running away and shooting arrows, etc., etc., etc.

You can get around camping easily; it took me about an hour to figure out what to do against my own strategies, and took my roomate a day to implement them. I can no longer effectively camp, and he's bad at Brawl.

What I CAN do is shoot projectiles from afar and force him to get into a vulnerable position.

It was the same way in Melee. Fox's would routinely shoot lasers at a Peach, forcing them to approach, only for the Peach to be drillshined or grabbed.


If you're upset about people beating you because they used a lot of "in and out" attacks, hit your shield just out of range, or stood just out of your range and waited for you to attack... then you probably weren't very good at Melee because that's what the entire cast did except for Falco and Fox, who had their shines.

Man up and stop using this thread for complaining and start discussing what camping strategies have worked, why they worked, and what you can do about it.

QFT

Nice post. It really made me look at Brawl camping in a different way. Can anyone refute this? If not, is it possible that camping in Brawl is not so bad after all? And that Brawl camping is not so different than melee strategy?

Discuss?

 

[User33]

I'm gonna go ahead and give everyone a quick rundown of what the best strategy in the game is, because it isn't "camping". Camping makes you lose against anyone halfway decent. Even if they aren't halfway decent and they play with someone that camps, you'll be destroyed. People just suck at Brawl right now.

Best strategy?

Forcing your opponent to be in a vulnerable position.

This can include getting JUST within range and moving in and out forcing them to whiff an attack, causing them to shield so you can grab, shooting projectiles, faking a laggy attack (like Ike's forward air, which looks like it might have a lot of lag but doesn't, or auto-canceling some of Snake's aerials), or even just getting to a good position on the stage.

When you are on offense, you have to COMMIT to what you are doing. That's what makes you vulnerable.

Certain characters, like Marth, Metaknight, and Wario, can approach without putting themselves into this position due to range, priority, and/or speed. This makes these characters different to play against than the rest (especially MK, who has 0 lag for some reason).

What makes camping different than forcing your opponent to be in a vulnerable position (in camping's case, making your opponent approach)?

Camping is a strategy designed around the idea of not fighting. Shooting lasers, throwing gyros, running away and shooting arrows, etc., etc., etc.

You can get around camping easily; it took me about an hour to figure out what to do against my own strategies, and took my roomate a day to implement them. I can no longer effectively camp, and he's bad at Brawl.

What I CAN do is shoot projectiles from afar and force him to get into a vulnerable position.

It was the same way in Melee. Fox's would routinely shoot lasers at a Peach, forcing them to approach, only for the Peach to be drillshined or grabbed.


If you're upset about people beating you because they used a lot of "in and out" attacks, hit your shield just out of range, or stood just out of your range and waited for you to attack... then you probably weren't very good at Melee because that's what the entire cast did except for Falco and Fox, who had their shines.

Man up and stop using this thread for complaining and start discussing what camping strategies have worked, why they worked, and what you can do about it.

What a great post. Everybody should really see this, you should make a new thread concerning it.

 

[Froth]

What a great post. Everybody should really see this, you should make a new thread concerning it.

Yeah, you really should.

 

[Overswarm]

What a great post. Everybody should really see this, you should make a new thread concerning it.

We'd just go over the first 18 pages of this thread anyways -__-;;

 

[mog87]

Instead of arguing about a game with clearly low competitive depth everyone should turn on the items and have some fun. Well I suppose doubles is okay, but honestly If people arent having fun then the IRL tourney scene will be dead quickly...fear not we can all move on to a good fighting game like guilty gear.

 

[mariomaster777]

Instead of arguing about a game with clearly low competitive depth everyone should turn on the items and have some fun. Well I suppose doubles is okay, but honestly If people arent having fun then the IRL tourney scene will be dead quickly...fear not we can all move on to a good fighting game like guilty gear.

Agreed. Items will help reduce the amount of camping. Especially when a Smash Ball comes out. Of course, I'm sure you guys are talking about competitive smash. However, if you do think about it, learning the correct use of items ads a level of complexity to your matches. Everything becomes situational, rather than memorizing approaches and combos. I still never knew why you don't use items in "official" tournaments. If you want to call it "eliminating the luck factor", then fine. But try entering a Mario Kart tournament where the "luck factor" is eliminated. It's no fun!

 

[Shai Hulud]

The problem with items is not some intrinsic flaw of items per se, but rather that their spawn locations and times are unpredictable, which means a significant luck element is introduced to the game. For instance, you hit someone off the stage and a bat falls from the sky--you just lucked into a kill.

If items appeared on timers at precise locations, the argument for items would have considerably more merit.

 

[BIG C]

Camping or wading in and out of attack ranges is basically the same thing. It's what ppl are gonna do and it's gonna make matches last 4-6 mins every time. Doing this takes more knowledge of moves and memorization of where the hitboxes start and end than skill. Which is why most people are disliking the game memorization is a skill but very easy for most people. sure the game will get faster and ppl will do stuff , but it will still be the game it is now where jump in jump back rolls and dodges are the best things to do, these being the noobiest and most punishable things from melee being buffed to such an extent was a ridiculous change. I, myself very much dislike this change because it made the game too easy to get good at.

Example that has been used is Azen's Lucario rolling and fsmashing and doing his aura beam or w/e. These are all incredibly easy tasks melee took time to get good at. They basically changed smash into an fps a game ppl can pick up and either think they are really good or are good basically just knowing which weapons to use and how to use them and knowing spots on the map are the same two things I pointed out earlier. Knowledge and memorization other than finger speed/skill this is why alot of ppl like the game. Plus it is slower making it easier to control I dunno how many ppl who played 64 I heard tell me they hated melee at first because of the speed but then became adjusted and loved it.

Items are off just because of how well it helps noobs beat good ppl. I play ppl and beat them most of the time it's normally close w/o items but with items I could possibly get 2 or 3 stocked just because of the times certain items came out or the speed of my opponent's character.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

But try entering a Mario Kart tournament where the "luck factor" is eliminated. It's no fun!

You can't eliminate the "luck factor" in Mario Kart. It's ****ing MARIO KART. Does this really need to be explained. I mean come on, they make the losing racers faster for pete's sake

 

[Overswarm]

I just won the smashboards/wifiwars tournament.

Watch the videos.

It's online, but still. Watch them when they come out. Then come back and tell me camping is the all time best strategy.

If you watch those videos and tell me that what I do is unstoppable and is camping,.... heh.

 

[Shai Hulud]

You can't eliminate the "luck factor" in Mario Kart. It's ****ing MARIO KART. Does this really need to be explained. I mean come on, they make the losing racers faster for pete's sake

I think they rely on time trials for competitive Mario Kart. That's the only game setting that doesn't have random elements.

 

[Rebel581]

*is Pit and deals with campers by firing an arrow*

If you play a projectile character, camp them with your own projectile. If you have a reflector, they will be forced to come to you. My god is my Pit scared after G&W just catches 3 of those arrows in his bucket.

I don't really know what to do with characters that don't have a projectile or a reflector though. My Marth is ****ed against campers. But I don't really like the new Marth anyways (I want my range back).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is fine vs campers.

He is one of the two characters in the game that can do something vs campers, but have no projectile themselves.

Mostly because he hits too hard.

 

[Brookman]

I feel like I should make a topic in response to this one called:

What's with the cramping?

 

[Froth]

I feel like I should make a topic in response to this one called:

What's with the cramping?

You should.

 

[Brookman]

wrong topic - sorry fellows.

 

[valtiel]

lol

A large majority of people on my friends list main Link.

:L

 

[methinkso]

ITT: Lots and lots of scrubs who can't accept the fact that there's currently a dominant strategy in the game that they don't like.

I guess SHFFL spamming is better and different from projectile spamming.

 

[Winston]

@ Overswarm:

Yeah, your playing in that set was definitely different from your set vs jiano, but the strategy that you outlined (forcing opponent to approach and thus make themselves vulnerable) falls under most peoples' definition of camping.

 

[Shai Hulud]

@ Overswarm:

Yeah, your playing in that set was definitely different from your set vs jiano, but the strategy that you outlined (forcing opponent to approach and thus make themselves vulnerable) falls under most peoples' definition of camping.

Exactly, it's just a difference between *good* camping (forcing vulnerabilities by baiting aggression, then exploiting those vulnerabilities) and scrubby camping (running away and projectile spamming without punishing vulnerabilities). Either way it's still camping.

 

[Overswarm]

@ Overswarm:

Yeah, your playing in that set was definitely different from your set vs jiano, but the strategy that you outlined (forcing opponent to approach and thus make themselves vulnerable) falls under most peoples' definition of camping.

"most people" are idiots and want to be able to play like Fox and Falco could be played in Melee. Attack shields all day with no chance for punishment unless you mess up. No one else could do that. Occasionally a character could hit the outside of a shield, just out or range of a smash, up+B, or grab out of shield, but generally it was just the spacies coming in and attacking someone with no possibility of punishment.

Thus, people started going in and out of range to punish those characters instead of just trying to shield grab.

The problem most GOOD players have (see: not the mindless robots from Melee that orgasmed when they pressed 12 buttons in under 2 seconds) is that they believe merely camping the edge or running away and shooting projectiles is a key to success. It isn't.

They also generally believe that approaching at all is a bad idea. It isn't.

They also, lastly, believe that there aren't strategies to deal with certain tactics. There are. There will always be counter-strategies. Some characters might not be able to do much (Ganon can't do too much against a good Pit on a larger stage if all the Pit does is arrow spam), but that was true in melee as well. No one complained when characters on the bottom of the tier list couldn't compete with the top tier. Everyone just said "duh". Now people are trying to play all these different characters and not realizing they may very well be playing a low tier character and johning about the game mechanics when in reality it is their character.

Your character can't deal with projectile spam? Fox can. He hits down+b. Adapt. Pick a secondary if you have to.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Not that I look down on camping, since I camp, but it's an annoying thing to play against. There are indeed ways around camping, so it's not over powered, just the best method of getting your opponent where you want him. If camping is what it takes to win a match, I don't see why people shouldn't do it.

 

[Shai Hulud]

12 buttons in under 2 seconds? Please, it's at least 30.

The main difference between projectile spam in Melee and Brawl, I think, is that in Melee it was difficult to be good at it with the spacies, particularly Fox. You can sit there spamming perfect SHLs or SHDL but with the tiniest mistake you end up doing a FJ or shooting a grounded laser, at which point Captain Falcon knees you in the face.

I don't think people are necessarily saying projectile spam is BROKEN (can't be countered), just that it's easy, and counter-strategies (like better projectile spamming) are also easy. I certainly have nothing against you Overswarm for being good at this game even if you sometimes use supposed "gay" tactics (whatever that means). I just don't think the game is fun, period, because if I'm projectile camping I better be pressing at least 30 buttons every 2 seconds or else I'm going to get seriously bored.

 

[mog87]

I say we move on to chess...at least your opponent is forced to move every turn. Come on chess is the way to go, screw next gen go old school. However I suppose turtling in chess is far more annoying.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I'm down for some chess.

 

[hoopspr226]

Shai:

If the complaint you (and others) have is that Brawl is not technical enough for you, then that is perfectly valid. Some people enjoy playing a more technical, meticulous game where physical button pressing skills play a large factor in separating people of different skill levels.

However, if you/someone's complaint with Brawl is that it is too campy/spam-friendly, then I think your complaints are way off base. As Overswarm has put it so nicely, camping is NOT an effective strategy in Brawl. Not against anyone good.

If your counterargument to this is "Sure projectile spamming may be ineffective, but physical attack spamming is still way overpowered, and this is leads to an incredibly boring/deficient game..." then you need to rethink things. Much of high level melee is also about physical attack spamming, it's just that no one really thought about it in that way/criticized it. Think about Marths spamming fairs for example. As OS said earlier, every character in the game (other than Fox and Falco) relied on physical spamming/in-and-out type baiting approaches.

 

[Overswarm]

12 buttons in under 2 seconds? Please, it's at least 30.

The main difference between projectile spam in Melee and Brawl, I think, is that in Melee it was difficult to be good at it with the spacies, particularly Fox. You can sit there spamming perfect SHLs or SHDL but with the tiniest mistake you end up doing a FJ or shooting a grounded laser, at which point Captain Falcon knees you in the face.

I don't think people are necessarily saying projectile spam is BROKEN (can't be countered), just that it's easy, and counter-strategies (like better projectile spamming) are also easy. I certainly have nothing against you Overswarm for being good at this game even if you sometimes use supposed "gay" tactics (whatever that means). I just don't think the game is fun, period, because if I'm projectile camping I better be pressing at least 30 buttons every 2 seconds or else I'm going to get seriously bored.

Why not just let them not projectile camp? Works for me on characters that I don't like to camp against.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Shai:

If the complaint you (and others) have is that Brawl is not technical enough for you, then that is perfectly valid. Some people enjoy playing a more technical, meticulous game where physical button pressing skills play a large factor in separating people of different skill levels.

However, if you/someone's complaint with Brawl is that it is too campy/spam-friendly, then I think your complaints are way off base. As Overswarm has put it so nicely, camping is NOT an effective strategy in Brawl. Not against anyone good.

If your counterargument to this is "Sure projectile spamming may be ineffective, but physical attack spamming is still way overpowered, and this is leads to an incredibly boring/deficient game..." then you need to rethink things. Much of high level melee is also about physical attack spamming, it's just that no one really thought about it in that way/criticized it. Think about Marths spamming fairs for example. As OS said earlier, every character in the game (other than Fox and Falco) relied on physical spamming/in-and-out type baiting approaches.

Actually that's pretty much why I don't like Brawl. I enjoy pressing massive amounts of buttons with a high degree of precision. Most technical players might not admit this, but this is pretty much the only reason I even started playing Melee. I like to practice retardedly hard techs and figure out ways to use them in fights. I've put a lot of time into Melee. I'm just now really getting good at it. I'm kind of pissed it's being replaced by a game that won't reward the same kind of dedication.

I've made the argument that Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee (which I think is true), but this isn't the basis for me not liking Brawl. The basis for me not liking Brawl is that it's slow and I can't pay attention to what's going on because I get bored so fast.

I made this thread a couple weeks ago, only semi-facetiously.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

lol I can press a single button 14 times per second. I like Wario, he's kinda technical (ridiculous timing really), and Ice Climbers (desynch anyone?)

I suggest Olimar or Snake. They are both complicated and busy characters, and there will be a lot going on so it'll be hard to get distracted.

 

[BIG C]

I'm just glad shai went to fox instead of IC's in melee. I was gonna blast him for wobbling me at INN but noticed he picked up a char without such a tactic.

and camping is definitely effective and pretty much the most dominant strat in brawl right now no johnz anything you guys are saying falls in the category of camping for the MAJORITY of smashers even ppl refer to melee's DD camping as DD CAMPING. I mean it's how falcon does it in melee it's a good strat. It's just no matter how much I practice brawl it's just like well I'm still just as good as the last time I played.

I beat ppl that I let borrow my wii and play way more than I do so practice isn't like rewarding really It's always close and always takes 4-5 mins even if ppl aren't camping. The fact is the game is slower and harder to kill in let it go and go back to melee like Ima do I might still do brawl doubles bcuz it isn't as frotacular as singles. I seriously want to get a dedicated melee following again play the fast paced better approach's game.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Haha yeah I was so bad back then. I just picked up ICs and had been playing them for about a week so my only real tactic was to wobble people. I remember our set, me trying to counterpick your Fox on Dreamland and you going Peach and me having to change to Falcon. Sad times...Then later I discovered I could actually do stuff with Fox.

 

[Rebel581]

I'm just glad shai went to fox instead of IC's in melee. I was gonna blast him for wobbling me at INN but noticed he picked up a char without such a tactic.

and camping is definitely effective and pretty much the most dominant strat in brawl right now no johnz anything you guys are saying falls in the category of camping for the MAJORITY of smashers even ppl refer to melee's DD camping as DD CAMPING. I mean it's how falcon does it in melee it's a good strat. It's just no matter how much I practice brawl it's just like well I'm still just as good as the last time I played.

I beat ppl that I let borrow my wii and play way more than I do so practice isn't like rewarding really It's always close and always takes 4-5 mins even if ppl aren't camping. The fact is the game is slower and harder to kill in let it go and go back to melee like Ima do I might still do brawl doubles bcuz it isn't as frotacular as singles. I seriously want to get a dedicated melee following again play the fast paced better approach's game.

I remember Melee also being very campy too. As Overswarm said, only two characters could outright forget spacing and rely on their shines to do that for them. If that's the camping we're both talking about (since that's the dominant strategy in Brawl), then Melee was also. Otherwise... no.

 

[BIG C]

well yea melee was campy not as campy as Brawl unless people decided to play that way. And I have never seen it impossible to approach someone's sheild with moves in melee as OS said.

 

[trademark0013]

BIG C said something i think everyone should pay attention to.

he mentioned that when you practice melee and get better at melee its more rewarding. its definately NOT the case with brawl

good point

 

[Overswarm]

BIG C said something i think everyone should pay attention to.

he mentioned that when you practice melee and get better at melee its more rewarding. its definately NOT the case with brawl

good point

When you practice melee against COMPUTERS it is more rewarding. This is not hte case with Brawl.

When you practice against PEOPLE, when you train your MIND instead of just your FINGERS, it is incredibly rewarding.

 

[BlackPanther]

Are you sayin Melee was all about how fast you could go?

 

[UltraDavidSRK]

Brawl is more strategic than Melee. Believe it.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Anyone complaining about camping in Brawl apparently never played a melee tournament set against a Fox on Green Greens, Corneria, or Jungle Japes, where being tagged by a single laser meant eight minutes of chasing after a character with unparalleled mobility, having to jump through gaps or other obstacles to get to said character, who also happened to posess almost unparalleled anti-air, and who could then go for the gimp or illusion to safety and proceed to laser tag your ***.

GG

Nothing in Brawl yet is as bad as that. Not Pit, not R.O.B., not Zelda, not Snake, not even the spacies themselves. I find this disdain for camping in Brawl ironic, since the unbearable dip towards camping that Melee took towards the last year of tournaments before Brawl was the main reason my interest in playing Melee competitively pretty much disappeared.

EDIT: Why in hell is *** censored?