What's stopping Sonic from getting more characters?

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

It would be a win-win whether a 30th anniversary plan falls through or not. If it goes through, it's a good cross-promotion. If it falls through, at least something good is coming out of the Sonic series around that time.

Of course, IIRC, Sega has more franchises represented through playable characters than the other third-party companies. Maybe they'll go for another just to keep that record, like Kiryu or Arle.

Come to think of it, it is pretty surreal that Sega is making this big comeback with their non-Sonic franchises. This could be the start of their renaissance since they quit making consoles.

Technically speaking, Sonic is the only one in Smash being a home-raised Sega character, the rest are hand-me-downs from their associates. It would be nice to get Kiryu, at least (especially seeing how oddly...convinced that Nagoshi doesn't expect him in Smash?). Arle is technically a Compile refugee, but that's irrelevant at this stage.

I remember when Yakuza bombed so badly in the West after Dead Souls that 5 was released digital-only (at Sony's direct involvement). Luckily, Zero got things to pick up for it again over there, though I do find it pretty strange that the entire series wound up being ported for the Xbox One, of all things.

Then there's the hat trick that was done with the Puyo Puyo Tetris crossover, scoring a loophole with a company using strict guidelines.

As for Sakura Wars, I have no idea how that'll pan out, as its comeback is slow in Japan.

 

[MaddaD]

Come to think of it, it is pretty surreal that Sega is making this big comeback with their non-Sonic franchises. This could be the start of their renaissance since they quit making consoles.

And to think, all it took was Sony ****ing up and Yakuza getting popular.

 

[Quillion]

And to think, all it took was Sony ****ing up and Yakuza getting popular.

How did that happen?

 

[MaddaD]

How did that happen?

Sony's ownership shifted to the NA branch way back in 2018ish after the majority share was owned there and they began censoring games, most of which anime. The most notable instance being the censorship of Omega Labyrinth Life which removed the Omega symbol from the logo entirely. Japanese game devs reportedly were pretty miffed about their games getting needlessly censored and harsher new policies which made porting games onto the console in America more difficult, one of which was asking Japanese developers to plead their approval only in English, making the process even more difficult for developers whose staff only speak or write in Japanese.

Which is one theory as to why we're seeing more PC/XBone ports in recent years.

Yakuza, meanwhile, decided to test the international markets after Dead Souls bombed the franchise with Yakuza 0, a prequel to the first game. Unlike other titles, it really dialed up the series' unique charm of telling a serious story and....well, being Yakuza. The trick worked and thus began a golden age of Yakuza in America. Like a Dragon has only further driven the point home as it still retains the wackiness of the other games while introducing a whole new cast.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So yeah, is it any wonder why fans are being concerned about Sony's Japanese devs and audience getting sidelined? The kicker is that Switch games are generally less subject to censorship to the point that it would have been unthinkable a game gen ago.

That being said, gotta love this reference from the upcoming physical release of Scott Pilgrim:

Spoiler

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Quillion]

Sony's ownership shifted to the NA branch way back in 2018ish after the majority share was owned there and they began censoring games, most of which anime. The most notable instance being the censorship of Omega Labyrinth Life which removed the Omega symbol from the logo entirely. Japanese game devs reportedly were pretty miffed about their games getting needlessly censored and harsher new policies which made porting games onto the console in America more difficult, one of which was asking Japanese developers to plead their approval only in English, making the process even more difficult for developers whose staff only speak or write in Japanese.

Which is one theory as to why we're seeing more PC/XBone ports in recent years.

Yakuza, meanwhile, decided to test the international markets after Dead Souls bombed the franchise with Yakuza 0, a prequel to the first game. Unlike other titles, it really dialed up the series' unique charm of telling a serious story and....well, being Yakuza. The trick worked and thus began a golden age of Yakuza in America. Like a Dragon has only further driven the point home as it still retains the wackiness of the other games while introducing a whole new cast.

And that was the catalyst for Sega doing things like reviving Wonder Boy, Streets of Rage, and Alex Kidd?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

And that was the catalyst for Sega doing things like reviving Wonder Boy, Streets of Rage, and Alex Kidd?

To be fair, even without getting directly involved they still gave the okay to the developers who wanted to take another stab at those (especially Shenmue and ToeJam and Earl, which got new installments from their actual original authors).

 

[MaddaD]

And that was the catalyst for Sega doing things like reviving Wonder Boy, Streets of Rage, and Alex Kidd?

It's up for debate, but the lineup was really just coincidence. Each game that was "reviving" an old series was made by devs who clearly understood what made their series successful and put love and energy into their products. It's almost like the games were already profitable and the reluctance to improve upon ideas and experiment with new ones was a bad decision. Really makes you think.

also, shoutout to Shenmue devs. It takes astronomical levels of gall to end Shenmue 3 the way they did.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

As far as I see it, Eggman's current best shot is if Sega decided to use Smash as a back-up plan in case their plans for Sonic's 30th fall through somehow.

Thing is, Fighter's Pass 2 was most likely greenlited back in the Summer of 2019 so all the characters in that Pass were written in stone right when Fighter's Pass 2 was decided on. Not to say Eggman can't be in the Pass, but something like his inclusion being a back up plan in case Sonic's 30th anniversary fails seems kind of farfetched. I would be up for it either way, but I just think that won't be the reason if Eggman does manage to get in.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Thing is, Fighter's Pass 2 was most likely greenlited back in the Summer of 2019 so all the characters in that Pass were written in stone right when Fighter's Pass 2 was decided on. Not to say Eggman can't be in the Pass, but something like his inclusion being a back up plan in case Sonic's 30th anniversary fails seems kind of farfetched. I would be up for it either way, but I just think that won't be the reason if Eggman does manage to get in.

I figure it would be in a way that's "oh, our big Sonic news never panned out, oh well, at least Eggman is still going to be in Smash so it's not a total loss".

It's up for debate, but the lineup was really just coincidence. Each game that was "reviving" an old series was made by devs who clearly understood what made their series successful and put love and energy into their products. It's almost like the games were already profitable and the reluctance to improve upon ideas and experiment with new ones was a bad decision. Really makes you think.

also, shoutout to Shenmue devs. It takes astronomical levels of gall to end Shenmue 3 the way they did.

Here's more food for thought: Nagoshi stated that if given the chance, he would make a Sonic game that's "very different". The only thing that's currently stopping him from doing that is working on the Yakuza series.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I don't know how long another Sonic character would take to make, but what if SEGA, having no Sonic game in the near future, decided a while back to include another one in Smash?

There's a good chemistry between Mario and Sonic characters, after watching Tokyo 2020 Olympics, and it'd be a tremendous waste not to follow on it and include at least one more.

Heck... A smash game of only Mario and Sonic characters would be a dream come true.
But I bet there's going to be quite a bit of mandates getting in the way.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Heck... A smash game of only Mario and Sonic characters would be a dream come true.
But I bet there's going to be quite a bit of mandates getting in the way.

I've considered making a conventional Mario VS Sonic fighting game.

 

[Ben Holt]

Right now, the Tails and Knuckles Mii Costumes as well as Shadow as an Assist Trophy are the biggest barriers to a second Sonic rep, but Eggman is certainly possible, but it seems a bit odd to release two third party villains in one Pass.

 

[Quillion]

I don't know how long another Sonic character would take to make, but what if SEGA, having no Sonic game in the near future, decided a while back to include another one in Smash?

There's a good chemistry between Mario and Sonic characters, after watching Tokyo 2020 Olympics, and it'd be a tremendous waste not to follow on it and include at least one more.

Heck... A smash game of only Mario and Sonic characters would be a dream come true.
But I bet there's going to be quite a bit of mandates getting in the way.

With COVID slowing down everything, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case. Mania and Forces technically didn't make the timing for the 25th anniversary despite being billed as such. They might have to pull the same thing out of necessity for the 30th.

Right now, the Tails and Knuckles Mii Costumes as well as Shadow as an Assist Trophy are the biggest barriers to a second Sonic rep, but Eggman is certainly possible, but it seems a bit odd to release two third party villains in one Pass.

I don't think the Mii costume barrier is a barrier considering there are costumes based on characters already in Smash. If it is a barrier, it's a weakly justified one for the same reasons.

Even then, they can very well break the Assist Trophy for DLC barrier if they wanted to. I don't think they will, at least for Ultimate, but they might.

 

[Ben Holt]

I don't think the Mii costume barrier is a barrier considering there are costumes based on characters already in Smash. If it is a barrier, it's a weakly justified one for the same reasons.

Maybe base game Miis, but PAID Mii Costumes? Tails and Knuckles are paid costumes, so Nintendo might think that fans will feel ripped off for buying a Mii Costume for a character revealed to be fully playable later.
But I hope I'm wrong. I want Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, AND Eggman and Metal Sonic, Amy, Silver, Blaze, and Rouge.

 

[Quillion]

Maybe base game Miis, but PAID Mii Costumes? Tails and Knuckles are paid costumes, so Nintendo might think that fans will feel ripped off for buying a Mii Costume for a character revealed to be fully playable later.
But I hope I'm wrong. I want Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, AND Eggman and Metal Sonic, Amy, Silver, Blaze, and Rouge.

I'd take that more as encouragement that people want a character in. If enough people buy a Mii costume, they'll be dedicated enough to pay more for the actual character.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I've considered making a conventional Mario VS Sonic fighting game.

Nice!
What's your general idea for the roster?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

As far as I see, Mii costumes are currently consolation prizes. So unless there's like one or two more DLC extensions after Pass 2 is done, I don't really see anything happening until the next game as far as promoting those is concerned.

In the meantime, make sure that Tails and Knuckles' costumes are as bought as much as possible. Just don't act surprised if nothing happens this time.

 

[Janx_uwu]

Right now, the Tails and Knuckles Mii Costumes as well as Shadow as an Assist Trophy are the biggest barriers to a second Sonic rep, but Eggman is certainly possible, but it seems a bit odd to release two third party villains in one Pass.

Then again, there is the possibility that they'll add all villains for the remaining spots-Eggman, Porky, and Master Hand if you will.
Also I think the Mii Costumes still have a chance as they were added in the first quarter of 2019 and I think a lot can change in the span of two years.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Right now, the biggest Sonic characters I can see are Robonitk, Tails, Amy, and Blaze

Unless there's a third patch or wanting to save a Sonic character for one of the last 3 characters in this DLC batch

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Right now, the biggest Sonic characters I can see are Robonitk, Tails, Amy, and Blaze

Unless there's a third patch or wanting to save a Sonic character for one of the last 3 characters in this DLC batch

Nothing against Amy or Blaze, but I think Knuckles and Shadow should take priority first because I see Eggman, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow as Sonic's Bowser, Luigi, Yoshi, and Wario in terms of importance. Amy could be considered as like Sonic's Peach, but I think Knuckles and Shadow would and should take priority over her first.

 

[Otoad64]

Nothing against Amy or Blaze, but I think Knuckles and Shadow should take priority first because I see Eggman, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow as Sonic's Bowser, Luigi, Yoshi, and Wario in terms of importance. Amy could be considered as like Sonic's Peach, but I think Knuckles and Shadow would and should take priority over her first.

I assume he didn't mention them because they're assist trophies

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I assume he didn't mention them because they're assist trophies

Still, I think Assist Trophies can get promoted. Though I do think Eggman or Tails is more likely.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Nothing against Amy or Blaze, but I think Knuckles and Shadow should take priority first because I see Eggman, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow as Sonic's Bowser, Luigi, Yoshi, and Wario in terms of importance. Amy could be considered as like Sonic's Peach, but I think Knuckles and Shadow would and should take priority over her first.

I definitely agree with you. The problem is all the good choices (Knuckles and Shadow) are usually the first on the fans' minds. They got taken away for AT. Tails is automatically the next popular with Eggman behind. Amy and Blaze can both bring some unique movesets into the series and I'm kinda a sucker for both of the ladies. Blaze being one of my favorites of the Sonic characters makes me slightly biased here. Blaze could work as a semi clone to Sonic but with some unique specials. Same goes for Amy. Amy's got more working for her with her hammer.

 

[Quillion]

I think a realistic roadmap would be Tails/Eggman for FP2, Knuckles for Smash 6 base, then Eggman/Tails for Smash 6 DLC. Maybe with Shadow as a Sonic echo for Smash 6 base.

 

[Doc Monocle]

I think a realistic roadmap would be Tails/Eggman for FP2, Knuckles for Smash 6 base, then Eggman/Tails for Smash 6 DLC. Maybe with Shadow as a Sonic echo for Smash 6 base.

That sounds approximately close to the way the Sonic representation would eventually resolve. If these members are included, and I think their chances are high for the ado made about them, It would seem that a greater movement must be made in pushing for these newcomers to have interesting, distinctive movesets. Otherwise, there may be too many echoes or semi-clones.

Take a look, we would already have THREE characters (Knuckles, Shadow, and Amy) who could potentially swallow some of Sonic's moves, robbing them of the individuality they could otherwise have easy access to due to their many appearances and source materials. There are so many ways to make these characters unique, but I am afraid the team at Sora might be tempted to 'shave' a little time by making them near Sonic variants. For this reason, we may be taking the bait for being so concerned with their attendance that we do not draw enough attention to the importance of preventing them from being mere redundancies.

Perhaps this effort is already underway, but I feel the above statements cannot be repeated too many times.

 

[Otoad64]

That sounds approximately close to the way the Sonic representation would eventually resolve. If these members are included, and I think their chances are high for the ado made about them, It would seem that a greater movement must be made in pushing for these newcomers to have interesting, distinctive movesets. Otherwise, there may be too many echoes or semi-clones.

Take a look, we would already have THREE characters (Knuckles, Shadow, and Amy) who could potentially swallow some of Sonic's moves, robbing them of the individuality they could otherwise have easy access to due to their many appearances and source materials. There are so many ways to make these characters unique, but I am afraid the team at Sora might be tempted to 'shave' a little time by making them near Sonic variants. For this reason, we may be taking the bait for being so concerned with their attendance that we do not draw enough attention to the importance of preventing them from being mere redundancies.

Perhaps this effort is already underway, but I feel the above statements cannot be repeated too many times.

honestly the only character I'm ok with being a sonic echo is metal, and even he could easily be a semi clone. shadow is understandable but if tails, knuckles and amy were sonic clones that would be a massive betrayal of those characters. some people justify it by saying things like "but knuckles used the homing attack in rivals" but that just isn't a good reasoning because they all have very unique abilities and there is no good reason to not include them.

but just in general I would rather nobody have sonic's current moveset tbh

 

[Doc Monocle]

honestly the only character I'm ok with being a sonic echo is metal, and even he could easily be a semi clone. shadow is understandable but if tails, knuckles and amy were sonic clones that would be a massive betrayal of those characters. some people justify it by saying things like "but knuckles used the homing attack in rivals" but that just isn't a good reasoning because they all have very unique abilities and there is no good reason to not include them.

but just in general I would rather nobody have sonic's current moveset tbh

Just as I would have said it. Honestly, I have only played one non-mobile Sonic game, but I suppose that is an even bigger case for individualizing their movesets. I easily see Knuckles as a powerful character with short range, low endlag, high start lag attacks; Amy as a quick, compact powerhouse with disjoints and high endlag; and Tails as a safe character with many mobility control options-- an easy to control, but weak character.

 

[shinhed-echi]

honestly the only character I'm ok with being a sonic echo is metal, and even he could easily be a semi clone. shadow is understandable but if tails, knuckles and amy were sonic clones that would be a massive betrayal of those characters. some people justify it by saying things like "but knuckles used the homing attack in rivals" but that just isn't a good reasoning because they all have very unique abilities and there is no good reason to not include them.

but just in general I would rather nobody have sonic's current moveset tbh

As much as it pains me, the only way I see Metal Sonic happening is as an echo (I mean look at Dark Samus) through some sort of VERY generous freebie tie-in with the actual Sonic reveal.

Can't say it makes him justice, as my ideal Metal Sonic would use stuff from Sonic, Wolf (claws), Mewtwo (nair) Zelda (B) among others.
But an echo is way better than nothing so.

 

[Quillion]

That sounds approximately close to the way the Sonic representation would eventually resolve. If these members are included, and I think their chances are high for the ado made about them, It would seem that a greater movement must be made in pushing for these newcomers to have interesting, distinctive movesets. Otherwise, there may be too many echoes or semi-clones.

Take a look, we would already have THREE characters (Knuckles, Shadow, and Amy) who could potentially swallow some of Sonic's moves, robbing them of the individuality they could otherwise have easy access to due to their many appearances and source materials. There are so many ways to make these characters unique, but I am afraid the team at Sora might be tempted to 'shave' a little time by making them near Sonic variants. For this reason, we may be taking the bait for being so concerned with their attendance that we do not draw enough attention to the importance of preventing them from being mere redundancies.

Perhaps this effort is already underway, but I feel the above statements cannot be repeated too many times.

To be fair, the other characters' best-received appearances are where they play "like Sonic + X ability" (see: Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic Advance games, Sonic Mania), so I honestly wouldn't mind if they share just a few moves with Sonic.

And really, even though there's a big demand for Sonic to use moves from Sonic Battle, how iconic is that game really? People are starting to say that Sonic the Fighters, simplistic as even that game is, is the better of the two official Sonic fighters.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

To be fair, the other characters' best-received appearances are where they play "like Sonic + X ability" (see: Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic Advance games, Sonic Mania), so I honestly wouldn't mind if they share just a few moves with Sonic.

And really, even though there's a big demand for Sonic to use moves from Sonic Battle, how iconic is that game really? People are starting to say that Sonic the Fighters, simplistic as even that game is, is the better of the two official Sonic fighters.

In general, Sak just usually doesn't seem to pay too much attention to spin-off material anyway unless a main character in question is the exclusive star of said spin-off.

At most, what we'd get from fighting spin-offs are Emerl and Honey, and those two are so far off the radar that I wouldn't count on it happening any time soon, if ever.

So I can accept the route, really. It's not like they would have too many alternatives for anyone that isn't Eggman, Amy or Omega.

 

[Janx_uwu]

And really, even though there's a big demand for Sonic to use moves from Sonic Battle, how iconic is that game really? People are starting to say that Sonic the Fighters, simplistic as even that game is, is the better of the two official Sonic fighters.

I think the reason people call for Sonic to have some Battle moves is that the current set has a lot of Fighters moves, which not many people played, compared to Battle, which isn't represented at all despite being more accessible. Plus I think many would just rather Sonic have the Sonic Eagle than Falco's forward air.

 

[Doc Monocle]

To be fair, the other characters' best-received appearances are where they play "like Sonic + X ability" (see: Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic Advance games, Sonic Mania), so I honestly wouldn't mind if they share just a few moves with Sonic.

My thoughts exactly. They should share a few key moves with Sonic. Primarily this would be related to rolling attacks. That latter portion about Sonic Battle and other, lesser titles: They do not HAVE to be referenced. They are simply more resources that can be used if developers run out of road in the creative process.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I definitely agree with you. The problem is all the good choices (Knuckles and Shadow) are usually the first on the fans' minds. They got taken away for AT. Tails is automatically the next popular with Eggman behind. Amy and Blaze can both bring some unique movesets into the series and I'm kinda a sucker for both of the ladies. Blaze being one of my favorites of the Sonic characters makes me slightly biased here. Blaze could work as a semi clone to Sonic but with some unique specials. Same goes for Amy. Amy's got more working for her with her hammer.

Knuckles and Shadow might be more popular than Tails or Eggman, but they're not as important or as iconic. Eggman has literally been in the games since the very beginning and Tails has been in the games since Sonic 2 so they have quite the seniority over the others. And I also see Tails and Eggman as Sonic's Luigi and Bowser in terms of importance and iconicness.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Knuckles and Shadow might be more popular than Tails or Eggman, but they're not as important or as iconic. Eggman has literally been in the games since the very beginning and Tails has been in the games since Sonic 2 so they have quite the seniority over the others. And I also see Tails and Eggman as Sonic's Luigi and Bowser in terms of importance and iconicness.

Like I've aforementioned, popularity ≠ iconicness/fame. Getting back on topic, Tails is more iconic than Shadow, but not more popular, in a similar fashion to how Megaman is more iconic, but not more popular than Ryu (Street Fighter).

There are also special circumstances where a character or media can be popular, in spite of their obscurity. An example is Lilac (Freedom Planet).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Tails playing like Sonic + Ability is a type of a clone anyway. Isabelle is literally a type of gameplay clone(the semi-clone, as the fanbase calls it) as is.

Only Shadow and Metal Sonic have the bodyshape to be an actual Echo. The rest can be a form of clone(though after a while, some characters just don't work, like Rouge, who is way too far off from the base to really be anything more than what Cloud is to Ike) easily, and that's often what they are.

Echo is not nor ever was the same thing as simply a clone. It's an extremely specific subset introduced in Ultimate that requires the exact same bodyshape. Any other details are unknown. Isabelle is pretty much similar to what Young Link is, directly borrowing from another character, but has a different fundamental bodyshape so is a different kind of clone than an Echo. Literally only Dr. Mario among the clones could qualify as an Echo due to the same actual boyshape. And that's it.

All of those neat choices mentioned earlier could easily work as clones regardless. But I'd expect them to be closer to Isabelle than someone like Cloud either way, still borrowing animations and abilities, but having a lot of their own spins(literally) and personality added in.

 

[Otoad64]

honestly I feel like they should only borrow the spindash for like one move, and even then amy shouldn't have it as the only game where amy has it is the game where they just made 3 characters and copied the movesets to get 12. tails, knuckles and amy have more then enough abilities to have an at least 90% original moveset

 

[Quillion]

Tails playing like Sonic + Ability is a type of a clone anyway. Isabelle is literally a type of gameplay clone(the semi-clone, as the fanbase calls it) as is.

Only Shadow and Metal Sonic have the bodyshape to be an actual Echo. The rest can be a form of clone(though after a while, some characters just don't work, like Rouge, who is way too far off from the base to really be anything more than what Cloud is to Ike) easily, and that's often what they are.

Echo is not nor ever was the same thing as simply a clone. It's an extremely specific subset introduced in Ultimate that requires the exact same bodyshape. Any other details are unknown. Isabelle is pretty much similar to what Young Link is, directly borrowing from another character, but has a different fundamental bodyshape so is a different kind of clone than an Echo. Literally only Dr. Mario among the clones could qualify as an Echo due to the same actual boyshape. And that's it.

All of those neat choices mentioned earlier could easily work as clones regardless. But I'd expect them to be closer to Isabelle than someone like Cloud either way, still borrowing animations and abilities, but having a lot of their own spins(literally) and personality added in.

I guess for Shadow, they can go the "similar normals, different specials" semi-clone/semi-echo route. Like I said here, there are three general patterns to semi-clones: similar normals, similar specials; different normals, similar specials; and half-similar normals and specials. A semi-clone with similar normals and different specials would be uncharted territory in the cloning business.

Really, they could stand to have similar normals, different specials-type clones for several characters. I personally hope Galacta Knight would be that type of clone to Meta Knight.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

If they really want Shadow to stand out, they can have him use his motorcycle for the side special. Have him play chicken with the other anti-hero.

Well, that and a semi-Witch Time implementation of Chaos Control.

 

[Quillion]

If they really want Shadow to stand out, they can have him use his motorcycle for the side special. Have him play chicken with the other anti-hero.

Well, that and a semi-Witch Time implementation of Chaos Control.

I mean, Shadow's specialset practically makes itself. I don't think the other characters can as easily claim that.

Neutral-B: Chaos Spear
Side-B: Shadow Bike
Up-B: Chaos Teleport
Down-B: Spin Dash