What's stopping Sonic from getting more characters?

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

My two cents on this is that to various degrees, at least some characters will share some moves that other characters have for ease of development, doesn't matter if it's normal, special or both. In the Sonic series' case, it just so happens that some do share abilities depending on the game, so it'd be natural here. Even Amy could borrow a few normal moves from (albeit speedier to reflect her agility).

 

[Doc Monocle]

My two cents on this is that to various degrees, at least some characters will share some moves that other characters have for ease of development, doesn't matter if it's normal, special or both. In the Sonic series' case, it just so happens that some do share abilities depending on the game, so it'd be natural here. Even Amy could borrow a few normal moves from (albeit speedier to reflect her agility).

It is a valid thought, but I could sooner see her borrowing from Ice Climbers' moveset before King Dedede's. What standard attacks would she take from his arsenal (other than maybe Usmash ) that could suit her?

 

[7NATOR]

To be fair, wouldn't everyone expect the Sonic characters to at least share the same down-B Spin Dash? At least the newer characters wouldn't be shackled by a "Ganondorf situation" where fans want moveset changes but the developers refuse to change them presumably due to not wanting to alienate older players (and I want to say that Sakurai has never directly said that he is against changing a character's moveset for that reason).

Personally I would have the Spin-dashes be Apart of their Normal Attacks, instead of a Special

Sonic is the character that represents the Sonic World, but I think the secondary characters should have a focus on their Special Abilities, and I don't think a Special move slot should NOT be used up by Spin-dash or even Homing attack, unless the move is Very Radically different

I think Knuckles can get away with a Spin dash as a Special because it could perhaps share the same slot as the Dig move, which is very unique

Tails and Shadow I don't think should have Spin dash as a Special. Shadow's Specials should be based around his Chaos Powers, and Tails should either be based around his Tails and/or Aerial mobility, as well as his technological inventions

 

[Oracle Link]

Know what? I'm really not sure. The Echo Fighter concept seemed like a good fit for Shadow, yet he got Assist Trophy'd anyways. Eggman (or, for that matter, any other Sonic character) does have hope for a non-Echo spot, but that's really all I can say.

i mean tails would work as good if not better as an echo if you change the up B move that is

He did invent the Spindash after all

 

[Perkilator]

We're doing a thing where we explore certain characters, and right now we're talking about Dr. Eggman.

 

[Quillion]

It's weird how much Sephiroth changed the conversation about Sonic characters. Before then, it seemed like it was all about Shadow and Tails, but now apparently it's gotta be Eggman now.

Not that I'm complaining; I think Tails and Eggman are neck-and-neck as far as a second Sonic character goes, but I think by next Smash we'll probably see a glut of Sonic characters.

 

[Otoad64]

It's weird how much Sephiroth changed the conversation about Sonic characters. Before then, it seemed like it was all about Shadow and Tails, but now apparently it's gotta be Eggman now.

Not that I'm complaining; I think Tails and Eggman are neck-and-neck as far as a second Sonic character goes, but I think by next Smash we'll probably see a glut of Sonic characters.

...you mean in speculation or the game itself?

because I doubt they would add more than 2 Sonic characters.

 

[Quillion]

...you mean in speculation or the game itself?

because I doubt they would add more than 2 Sonic characters.

I mean in the game itself.

Two Sonic characters would a glut as far as third-party franchises go, though.

 

[Quillion]

I think the Sonic 30th stream tomorrow could provide the hint for another Sonic character in Smash.

I even think it's likely they could take the ARMS approach and say "Another Sonic character is coming to Smash, but which one?" and then reveal the character proper in a later video. It would drive a lot of hype that way.

 

[volbound1700]

I don't see Sonic getting another character. If I had to pick, I think Tails makes the most sense followed by Shadow due to Shadow's moveset being able to borrow from Sonic.

Eggman would be third.

 

[Quillion]

I don't see Sonic getting another character.

Why? Sonic has been beaten to getting a second character and getting a second full character.

Unless Sonic's the first to get three characters, the franchise is playing catch-up in Smash at this point.

 

[volbound1700]

Why? Sonic has been beaten to getting a second character and getting a second full character.

Unless Sonic's the first to get three characters, the franchise is playing catch-up in Smash at this point.

For several reasons:

1. Sakurai doesn't seem to be high about the Sonic franchise as pointed out in this thread

2. Sonic Franchise has declined the last 10 or so years. If this was Brawl era, Sonic series would almost be a shoe-in for Smash. It just doesn't have the fan support or hype as it once had.

3. I think SEGA would rather show off another franchise. The Sonic franchise has its characters represented (although poorly) through Mii Costumes, Spirits, Assist Trophies, etc.

Sonic is probably the #1 third-party character in Smash to me and I had the most hype out of any other third-party when he was added. I grew up with an original NES and Sega Genesis. Sonic 1 & 2 were religiously played by me. I also had the Game Gear Sonic 1 (it was actually the first Sonic game that I ever played and is underrated IMO). I love Sonic. Hence my avatar. I was on the boards when he was announced in Brawl. I would love to have a second Sonic rep. I just do NOT see it happening though and I don't want to get anyone in this thread's hopes up.

 

[millsfan]

Sonic is the closest to Mario/nintendo compared to any other third party. So I don’t get how Shadow has been an assist trophy for three games now, when people have wanted him since brawl. His moveset is unique, chaos abilities as seen in SB on gba. Also view smash legacy and smash flash 2 mod by znx.

You’d think shadow would’ve been added in wiiU & ultimate would’ve got tailed and knuckles...

 

[Oracle Link]

weird how everyone cant shut up about Sonic being a ball eventho hes a ball like 50% of the time!
Heck even sonic smasck down has more ball sonic than smash
On a reölated note how do you find Sonic smackdown its roster is pretty good for a fan game!

 

[Perkilator]

I know Sonic content in general has it better compared to base game FF, but people are seriously overestimating how well-represented the series is. Eggman being a DLC character can fill in some of the holes the series has in Smash:

• Some songs and Spirits that should feel like no-brainer inclusions aren't in Ultimate
  • In the former case, Right There, Ride On was cut from Ultimate
• The two stages we have are just two versions of Green Hill Zone

So, assuming Eggman was the last character, here's the Challenger Pack idea I had for him:

Spoiler

• Fighter: Dr. Eggman
• Stage: Planet Wisp
• Music:
  1. Green Hill Zone (New remix)
  2. Chemical Plant Zone
  3. Casino Night Zone
  4. Death Egg Robot
  5. Palmtree Panic (Present)
  6. Stardust Speedway (Bad Future) (JP)
  7. Big Arms
  8. Mushroom Hill Zone
  9. Sky Sanctuary Zone
  10. Doomsday Zone
  11. Unknown from M.E.
  12. Chaos 0, 2, 4
  13. Run Through the Speed Highway
  14. E.G.G.M.A.N.
  15. Supporting Me
  16. Seaside Hill / Ocean Palace
  17. Egg Emperor
  18. What I'm Made Of
  19. Right There, Ride On
  20. Metal Scratchin'
  21. Back 2 Back
  22. Wrapped in Black
  23. I Am (All of Me)
  24. Crisis City
  25. A New Venture
  26. Endless Possibility
  27. Vs. Egg Dragoon
  28. Tropical Resort
  29. Planet Wisp
  30. Honeycomb Highway
  31. The Deadly Six Theme
  32. Sonic Mania Medley
  33. Rogues Gallery
  34. Hi-Spec Robo Go!
  35. Moonlight Battlefield (Aqua Road)
• Spirit Board
  1. Dr. Eggman (Modern) (Fighter Spirit)
  2. Dr. Eggman (Classic) (Fighter Spirit)
  3. Classic Sonic
  4. Motobug
  5. Knuckles
  6. Metal Sonic
  7. Mighty & Ray
  8. Eggman Nega
  9. Black Doom
  10. Mephiles the Dark
  11. Erazor Djinn
  12. Wisps
  13. Orbot and Cubot
  14. Zavok -> The Deadly Six
  15. Sticks the Badger
  16. Hard-Boiled Heavies
  17. Custom Hero
  18. Death Egg Robot

 

[Quillion]

I know Sonic content in general has it better compared to base game FF, but people are seriously overestimating how well-represented the series is. Eggman being a DLC character can fill in some of the holes the series has in Smash:

• Some songs and Spirits that should feel like no-brainer inclusions aren't in Ultimate
  • In the former case, Right There, Ride On was cut from Ultimate
• The two stages we have are just two versions of Green Hill Zone

So, assuming Eggman was the last character, here's the Challenger Pack idea I had for him:

Spoiler

• Fighter: Dr. Eggman
• Stage: Planet Wisp
• Music:
  1. Green Hill Zone (New remix)
  2. Chemical Plant Zone
  3. Casino Night Zone
  4. Death Egg Robot
  5. Palmtree Panic (Present)
  6. Stardust Speedway (Bad Future) (JP)
  7. Big Arms
  8. Mushroom Hill Zone
  9. Sky Sanctuary Zone
  10. Doomsday Zone
  11. Unknown from M.E.
  12. Chaos 0, 2, 4
  13. Run Through the Speed Highway
  14. E.G.G.M.A.N.
  15. Supporting Me
  16. Seaside Hill / Ocean Palace
  17. Egg Emperor
  18. What I'm Made Of
  19. Right There, Ride On
  20. Metal Scratchin'
  21. Back 2 Back
  22. Wrapped in Black
  23. I Am (All of Me)
  24. Crisis City
  25. A New Venture
  26. Endless Possibility
  27. Vs. Egg Dragoon
  28. Tropical Resort
  29. Planet Wisp
  30. Honeycomb Highway
  31. The Deadly Six Theme
  32. Sonic Mania Medley
  33. Rogues Gallery
  34. Hi-Spec Robo Go!
  35. Moonlight Battlefield (Aqua Road)
• Spirit Board
  1. Dr. Eggman (Modern) (Fighter Spirit)
  2. Dr. Eggman (Classic) (Fighter Spirit)
  3. Classic Sonic
  4. Motobug
  5. Knuckles
  6. Metal Sonic
  7. Mighty & Ray
  8. Eggman Nega
  9. Black Doom
  10. Mephiles the Dark
  11. Erazor Djinn
  12. Wisps
  13. Orbot and Cubot
  14. Zavok -> The Deadly Six
  15. Sticks the Badger
  16. Hard-Boiled Heavies
  17. Custom Hero
  18. Death Egg Robot

The main issue is that Sega is for some reason denying any new remixes in Smash for Sonic. Outside of characters, Sonic is pretty well-represented, even including music.

 

[fogbadge]

The main issue is that Sega is for some reason denying any new remixes in Smash for Sonic. Outside of characters, Sonic is pretty well-represented, even including music.

bit more verity in the stages wouldnt go a miss

 

[Inferno7]

It still amazes me how Sonic, the clear candidate for getting a 2nd rep, and one of the most iconic/biggest VG franchises in the world still hasn't gotten a character in Ultimate aside from Sonic himself with a lackluster moveset (Mario's rival of all people). Even though the fan-demand has been present since Brawl (Tails & Shadow to be specific).
To answer your question there's absolutely nothing preventing Sonic from getting another character, other than Sakurai and co. simply not wanting it. We've seen bs responses such as:

-''Sonic games bad'': Sure, the quality may be inconsistent, but not ALL games are bad and the foundation itself is great, to the point they get media exposure/content outside of videogames (TV series, comics and even a movie with one more in the making).

-''Sega bad'': This gives me SE bad vibes and we all know how that ended. Not to mention Shadow was supposedly a scrapped DLC character for PSASBR, a game that sold much, much worse to the point it is widely considered a flop: https://playstationallstars.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow. No sane 3rd party company would turn down a request for Smash that easily. Sega also likes to promote the Sonic brand everywhere they go, at least in comparison to the other non-Sonic IPs.

-''Shadow would only be an echo'': No. All I've got to say is go play Sonic Battle or hell, read his abilities in vs. battles wiki, it can't be that hard. Also fangames and mods such as Legacy XP.

-''Fandom too indecisive when it comes to the clear-cut choice'': Because FE fans are tooootally on the same page when they ask for another character. Same with SF fans who asked for Chun-Li. Or heck, even half of the polls that were made about FF7 had Tifa as the fan favorite over Sephiroth. This is honestly the dumbest excuse ever.

 

[Quillion]

Could the final DLC character be a Sonic character? It would mean that Sega gets another DLC character after Joker, but considering the demand for another Sonic character since at earliest Brawl, there could be a chance.

 

[Quillion]

Almost forgot; I better make a closing note for this thread too.

Well, it's the end of the road for another Sonic character... for now. I'm sure we'll get another Sonic character someday, and I'm sure it will be in the next Smash's base roster at that.

I guess we can spend the rest of this thread speculating on future Smash games that could have more Sonic characters.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

I wish we could learn if there was an attempt made for another Sonic character. I'm still flabbergasted that demand for Dark Samus was heard but somehow Sonic (the franchise with a much bigger following) just got ignored. I'm not going to pretend to understand how companies like this work, but I really wonder if Sakurai talked to SEGA about this at all.

Seeing Square Enix get a crazy amount of love is great but also makes me feel left out as a Sonic fan. Sonic's really been here since 2007 and yet is always just there it seems (although Ultimate used him in advertising a lot more than Smash 4 did). There isn't even a shortage of content for the series objectively; two stages, two Assist Trophies, 20 songs, and Spirits covering the franchise history from Sonic 1 to Forces is a great amount. But it almost feels like Sonic fans have been ignored in their biggest demand.

Is it SEGA? Probably. Sakurai & his team do listen as we know by now, so if there is an obstacle it's probably Sonic's home company restricting things somehow. I'm not trying to scapegoat them though. Rather I'm curious for the next game (whenever it is, it will happen) as I believe the Sonic franchise is handled by SEGA of America now rather than SEGA of Japan. Language barrier aside, I wonder if negotiations would go any differently in the west where Sonic has a much bigger presence & understanding.

Just spitballing here. I wish Shadow was playable, yet Ultimate gave me so much to be thankful for that I can't let this one thing ruin it all. Here's to the next time, fellow Sonic fans.

 

[Dorayaki]

Well... if Lara fans already complained that Sephiroth's slot should had been given to her instead, fans of other SEGA fans may complain that the next SEGA fighter should be someone from their games. If you don't have a plan to make Arle fans silent, I wouldn't think this idea is concrete enough.

My general opinion is we already got Mario vs Sonic in Olympics, which was made to serve the request from fans who want to see the whole Sonic and Mario main cast battle against each other.

Yes, Olympics isn't all about fighting, but SEGA at least opens the possibility of some other different collaboration. Maybe next Sonic Battle game or SEGA Allstars title could invite Mario characters and also Banjo.

Across the whole discussion thread, since people cannot make their mind whether the second rep is Tails, Amy or Dr Robotnik, actually having the whole main cast battle against Mario main cast or NIntendo allstars would be much more comprehensive.

Since Smash Ultimate is the Ultimate Smash game and we just got our first non Echo secondary 3rd party rep in Sephiroth, than I think a 2nd Sonic rep needs to happen for Ultimate whether it be Tails, Dr. Eggman, Knuckles, or Shadow.

First, if echo is the foundemental requirement for a franchise, I say Sonic should get his echo fighter first.

I think the problem here is, even if we are open to the idea of giving second fighter to all franchises, Warioware and Punch Out should have the priority to get their second rep here before Sephiroth or Heihachi. Otherwise that would be like saying Sonic is more important than Warioware in Smash bros.

being a DLC character can fill in some of the holes the series has in Smash:

The base game can already do that if they want. That's also the major criticism against Sephiroth.

 

[Quillion]

Across the whole discussion thread, since people cannot make their mind whether the second rep is Tails, Amy or Dr Robotnik, actually having the whole main cast battle against Mario main cast or NIntendo allstars would be much more comprehensive.

At least we have an agreed-upon pool on who the next character should be: Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, or Eggman. As long as it's one of those four, we're good.

First, if echo is the foundemental requirement for a franchise, I say Sonic should get his echo fighter first.

I think the problem here is, even if we are open to the idea of giving second fighter to all franchises, Warioware and Punch Out should have the priority to get their second rep here before Sephiroth or Heihachi. Otherwise that would be like saying Sonic is more important than Warioware in Smash bros.

An echo is not the fundamental requirement for a franchise. Sephiroth got in before Final Fantasy could get an echo for Cloud.

The problem with your second paragraph in that quote is that some franchises, including Wario (not even just WarioWare at that) and Punch Out, don't have a suitable second character. A second character doesn't inherently mean that the franchise is more important than a one-character franchise; it more means that the franchise with the second character just has more to give than a one-character franchise.

 

[Geno Boost]

Sonic franchise is kinda drying out compared to what it was in the past so i think this could be a reason why Sonic getting a 2nd rep would be unlikely its not only that but a 2nd Sonic rep is basically competing with other SEGA characters for the next SEGA rep i wouldnt be surprised if someone like Hatsune Miku or Arle or Akira or Aiai or Alex Kidd or SMT rep would make it in before a 2nd Sonic rep unless if a 2nd Sonic rep is in high demands which i dont see much of over the years.

if we are lucky we would be getting Shadow at least as an echo fighter in the next game but i really dont see Dr. Eggman or Tails or Knuckles make it in.
i know some would argue that Sephiroth was able to make it in but the difference is FF series had a serious lack of contents while Sonic series is represented properly by Sonic alone and 2 stages and many music and spirits and even assists.
however the good news is Dr. Eggman support has increased after the Sephiroth reveal.

 

[Reila]

They will always make the DLCs with the most potential for sales. Sonic the Hedgehog still is a relatively popular series, but kids today - and kids are, for the most part, Nintendo's target audience - care more about their anime fighters than a second Sonic rep. They also likely factor how much boom a release of a new DLC will make on media / social media, because even today word of mouth is one of the best ways to promote anything.

So lets ignore Sora from a moment since he is the protagonist of a massive and popular series. Think Pyra, the release of such a character makes a bigger boom than Tails or Knuckles or Dr. Robotnik would. This has nothing to do with quality or my preferences, because I don't like Xenoblade 2 at all and Pyra is by far my least favorite addition to Smash ever, but my preference doesn't change the fact Xenoblade 2 is, for some reason, a very popular recent game. The same goes for Bandana Waddle Dee, and obscure characters like Lip, Isaac (Golden Sun is pretty much an obscure RPG, especially for today's audiences), etc. They will not dedicate weeks of development and resources into characters that will barely sell because the target audience of Smash doesn't know who those characters are.

The best fans can hope for is for a new Sonic rep, or a new Kirby rep, to be added in the base game of the next installment - but that will depend on a lot of factors, too. If they start the development of the next Smash next year, they will gather information, data and stuff and decide on the roster based on what is popular now. It is a product made to sell as many copies as possible, Smash is not some passion project. And Sonic? The series is not very popular at all in 2021, maybe things will change next year. SEGA totally ignored the momentum Sonic Mania created - in fact, they killed it with the abomination that is Forces. If they had played their cards right, Sonic could be a relevant figure as of today. The fiasco that is Sonic Colors Ultimate doesn't help things.

I find it more likely to see Sans, the Knight (Hollow Knight), even some crazy reps like the Doom Slayer, Monika (imagine the social media boom that would be if Just Monika was in Smash?), one or two more Fire Emblem characters, maybe the Xenoblade 2 protagonist, etc etc over more Sonic and more Kirby.

 

[Dorayaki]

Sephiroth got in before Final Fantasy could get an echo for Cloud.

I don't think we mean to talk about what actually happend. We're talking about what NIntendo should do in this case.

My brother committed theft doesn't mean I'm allowed to repeat what he did, for example.

The problem with your second paragraph in that quote is that some franchises, including Wario (not even just WarioWare at that) and Punch Out, don't have a suitable second character. A second character doesn't inherently mean that the franchise is more important than a one-character franchise; it more means that the franchise with the second character just has more to give than a one-character franchise.

As a fan of Wario games, I personally don't agree. Even Smash itself has acknowledged the existence of other Wario series characters.

Besiedes, outstide this comparison, there are tons of unsued franchise reps to come to mind.

At least we have an agreed-upon

And also need to be agreed by all people who supported characters from other games.

 

[Quillion]

As a fan of Wario games, I personally don't agree. Even Smash itself has acknowledged the existence of other Wario series characters.

Like who? Captain Syrup never engages Wario directly and always uses outside help or equipment. The WarioWare employees do nothing but make microgames.

Besiedes, outstide this comparison, there are tons of unsued franchise reps to come to mind.

I guess there's Dixie, Funky, and Cranky for DK. Mario's cast will perpetually grow, and so will Pokémon and Fire Emblem.

That said, most of the "major" franchises have their most integral players covered. Much of the other franchises like Wario, Punch-Out, Ice Climber, Game & Watch, and ROB have only one character worth bringing.

 

[Blackwolf666]

Sonic characters have a lot of potential and Sega has had a great relationship with Nintendo but, no offense to Sonic fans (I'm kind of a fan myself) I just don't see Sonic characters as a high priority for smash bros outside of the blue blur himself. I'd love to see characters like Knuckles or Dr Eggman make it in but the series has been inconsistent in recent years when it comes to successful games.

 

[Quillion]

Sonic characters have a lot of potential and Sega has had a great relationship with Nintendo but, no offense to Sonic fans (I'm kind of a fan myself) I just don't see Sonic characters as a high priority for smash bros outside of the blue blur himself. I'd love to see characters like Knuckles or Dr Eggman make it in but the series has been inconsistent in recent years when it comes to successful games.

Smash doesn't have to celebrate Sonic as he is now. It's not like Smash is ever going to celebrate post-Kojima Metal Gear.

 

[Dorayaki]

Like who? Captain Syrup never engages Wario directly and always uses outside help or equipment. The WarioWare employees do nothing but make microgames.

If we ingnore Wario's own participation in other games (and on the other hand, Nnitendo should had allowed other Wario characters to participate in other Mario games). Wario's only advantage is being the titular character of the games. His role is mostly similiar with other members in this game if we only look at the Warioware titles. If other Wario characters aren't worth for Smash by your standard, so is Wario himself.

Then technically all main characters from all game series should have the chance to compete for Smash. Excluding or ignoring other character's chance isn't a decent attitude as well, no matter if they will eventually make it or not.

And as already said, outside the comparison there are unrepresented first and third party game series.

 

[UserKev]

Sonic characters have a lot of potential and Sega has had a great relationship with Nintendo but, no offense to Sonic fans (I'm kind of a fan myself) I just don't see Sonic characters as a high priority for smash bros outside of the blue blur himself. I'd love to see characters like Knuckles or Dr Eggman make it in but the series has been inconsistent in recent years when it comes to successful games.

Knuckles is truly the only other Sonic rep I'm asking for. In my mind, Knuckles is so perfect for Smash and could even work as a rival foil to Sonic. He's forever my top third party want.

My only Sonic wants are Knuckles and Big The Cat as icing on the cake. I'm not asking for anything more. I'd just be so happy.

 

[HedgenicTheSohog]

Yeah, I would like a full revamp but if he just gets a new side b then I’ll be satisfied.

I was thinking of what could make Sonic more "Sonic".
I thought that it could've been, moreso like the combined games with classic and modern sonic.

Normal/Modern Sonic would get rid of spindash-like moves, and get more moves like sonic fighters or idk just more modern-like moves. I imagine boost could work better than lightspeed dash, since the dash could've been "tooslow" and too similar to Fox's dash attack.
Maybe it could've been a quick not-instant dash attack that hurts enemies that you run into, not too long or else you'll run off.


Classic sonic could've been more like generations and mania, and obviously separate character. The spindash goes to CS instead, since MS got the boost in recent games instead of the spindash(idk if that changes in frontiers, the stopness of the spindash feels like it could interfere with the openness of the game, so probably not).
Maybe he could have shield attacks as aerials, it makes sense. The Bair could be instashield maybe.

I imagine the springjump might go to classic sonic instead as an upB, I don't know what it could be for MS tho.

It would be cool if cs had head-tilts like Steve.

The supersonic-final smash could still go to Modern, but idk what it could be for Classic. I imagine it could maybe be something with hyper as a reference or smt, since it ended with classic sonic, but it might be too flashy or smt.
I imagine it could be like a slowdown, classic charging up a powerful spindash, hitting an enemy, and then all of his classic friends coming in from offscreen in someway(since I don't think they're gonna have any other classic characters playable), and possibly kinda hitting others, and then possibly a speedup showing more power, then ending off with powerful hit that maybe hits everyone and sending them off.


Tell me what you guys think of this idea, and tell me of anything else that could work/work better.