What it takes to make sonic a well rounded character

[da K.I.D.]

i saw a thread where some guy tried to calculate CF's run speed in MPH.

i didnt go into the thread, but based on that reasoning, and the knowledge that sonic can run at the speed of sound, he should have been much faster in this game.

But anyway the question of the thread was, what does it take to make sonic a decent character, and the answer is, much more skill and knowledge than your opponent

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty much.

Bottom line is this.

A character is a tool to be used to attain victory. How good the tool is depends on their options and how good they are. Sonic's options are sub-par thus he is a sub-par character.

You can only get around this to some degree before his limitations hold you back and you are at an insurmountable plateau. Sonic has to use less effective options to achieve inferior results that take much more effort then other characters with very effective options that can be used to achieve superior results with very little effort.

The only way you win with Sonic is if you are a much better player.

There is simply no way to make Sonic a "well rounded character".

 

[Browny]

Sorry Blue, but the cyan text didn't save it ^_^

Uhh Sonic needs disjointed hitboxes combined with priority if he wants to compete against the likes of MK, Snake, G&W, D3, and Marth. Last time I checked, Sonic has very few disjointed hitboxes... and his priority is abysmal on most of his moves. His attributes don't make him a well rounded character because of a ton of things holding him back.

hooray for people still believing what they were told in march.

Im quite sure his fsmash, ftilt, uair and bair are all disjointed, his usmash might as well be too given its invincibility frames. His priority is fine on all those moves, the only moves which seem to be cancelled out all the time are his dair, jab, dsmash and possibly fair. spindash/charge will clank with the likes of snake ftilt, marth fsmash and only gets hit by projectiles.

 

[-Blue-]

hmmm.. it just doesn't seem to me that -blue- has anything to contribute himself.
other than just asking the questions, what insight have you got on sonic?

and if you are keeping a low profile then why havent u read the guide that states sonics foxtrot wont speed him up?
i just see no evidence of knowledge on sonics finer points... no meta-language that has become common in these boards which you would surely be able to employ if you were just indeed keeping a low profile over this time.
</irritable mood hopefully>

P.S. Fair enough if you want a different colour text... I used to do it but got lazy... But if you are that worried about the appearance of your posts...have a once over check of your posts beforehand and remove all 308950493429 of your spelling + grammar errors.

well i'll settle it this way and leave the sonic thread for the lack and bashing someone gets for trying a different approach of trying to help sonic mainers. Brawl me Sonic Ditto best of 3 or 5. i will show you what i know rather than tell you something that is already known. either you are a very low and inexperienced sonic mainer or a young child but it seems as though understanding my different approach is misunderstood. you want something given to you. why not work for it or have someone help you think of different things on your own. i will tell you this, all the things i have learned was by my own effort not given/told to me. i had to develope my own style which is why i believe i could help others become better in their own way. stop looking for free tips.

Just as i said give me your FC and i will show you what type of sonic i main and the level of skill is in my sonic. Now will you step up or shut up and leave this thread if nothing positive comes from your mouth.

 

[Tenki]

hooray for people still believing what they were told in march.

Im quite sure his fsmash, ftilt, uair and bair are all disjointed, his usmash might as well be too given its invincibility frames. His priority is fine on all those moves, the only moves which seem to be cancelled out all the time are his dair, jab, dsmash and possibly fair. spindash/charge will clank with the likes of snake ftilt, marth fsmash and only gets hit by projectiles.

F-tilt and B-air don't feel disjointed.

F-smash is only extended by a little bit.

U-smash invincibility frames always fail me.

@blue-

a better title would be:
"What it takes to become a more well-rounded Sonic main"

 

[Greenstreet]

I'm 10.

sorry what is your approach? rhetoric?
Tenki knows a load about Sonic, and he is sharing in every post I see from him.

and as for

"stop looking for free tips."

isn't this why you made the thread, so everyone could see for free what makes a sonic better? i never claim to be a good Sonic, I'm here to gain a complete understanding of him, much like everyone else. Infact, i'm quite a poor Sonic, if i was perfect I wouldn't be here.
What free tips could I gain from?

"I will know ask questions that will bring the sonic community higher"

I answered the questions you asked as well. So yeah, I'm sorry for coming here and trying to milk out your Sonicy essence for my own satisfaction for FREE!!
You have paypal?

i gotta go to uni now.... cya l8a

P.S. lol @ step up or shut up and leave

 

[Tenki]

Quit attacking each other.

Everyone's been stupid and emo around the time the tier list came out `.`;
But I second Emblem Lord's notion to find the frame values for a few moves.

Dash Grab
Shield Grab
F-Tilt
D-tilt

among others, since those are my most used punisher (and punished) moves.

 

[Greenstreet]

erch. alright. in a irritable mood still. when i'm done studying i'll jump into training mode.

 

[Umby]

Quit attacking each other.

Everyone's been stupid and emo since before the time the tier list came out `.`;

Fixed. And you know it's true, at least for the recent few weeks.

 

[ROOOOY!]

The problem is there's no definitive way to play Sonic, there isn't a way you're supposed to play him. Like, every Sonic video I've seen has been very different. I play like a campy defensive POS for example, while Tenki's is a very feinty game, while X's is pretty aggressive.
The person who's had the biggest success (IMO) is Mr 3000, beating Sethlon's Falco like twice and generally placing high in tournies etc. His playstyle isn't very flashy, it's just balls to the wall grit. Not really any AT's to speak of, just a very simplistic style. Reading and spacing he seems to do very well.
I think some people (me included) need to get back to basics a little.

 

[R4ZE]

3000 actually plays defencive as hell. most of his kills are counter attacks.


Seriously, if you rush with sonic, you WILL get punished. it only takes a tiny bit of time for the opponent to learn the timing of sonic's attacks and then he will be able to constantly meet them with his sword.


so play defencive. it gives sonic more options, it allows him to survive in to like 160-180% on average, and it allows him time to pull of his powerful attacks, Fsmash, dsmash Bair. All of these have considerable starting delay when compared to attacks of similar power and priority to the rest fo the cast. PLUS you really need to charge his smashes if you expect to kill at reasonable percents form the center of the stage.



one thing ppl never consider is that.. sakurai knew that sonic would be able to abuse his movement speed to stay out of harms way, thats why he DIDNT give sonic the ability to pound the **** out of his opponents and kill them before they could move. it would be unfair. It would be WORSE than fox/falco/sheik in melee.


all you have to do with sonic, is avoid harm... its so simple.. its freakin easy mode. and trust me, it is A LOT more effective than trying to rush rush rush.


sonic should only be rushing if he is going for a gimp kill.

 

[Umby]

one thing ppl never consider is that.. sakurai knew that sonic would be able to abuse his movement speed to stay out of harms way, thats why he DIDNT give sonic the ability to pound the **** out of his opponents and kill them before they could move. it would be unfair. It would be WORSE than fox/falco/sheik in melee.

Yet Meta Knight and Snake exist.

 

[StrongGaia]

Personally, I believe players become predictable, not characters. But I do agree with what you said about people becoming aware of Sonic's techniques and tactics. Unfortunately we're just going to have to adapt to stay ahead, something I'm not good at xP.

 

[R4ZE]

literally, if you alter when sonic moves... it changes everything.. . have you ever tried just holding a SC rather than releasing it as fast as humanly possible? works wonders.

standing still with sonic, is a great mindgame.

I think sonic is probobly the easiest character to do mindgames with.

 

[CorruptFate]

Mind games, I play X all the time and from what I saw a little while back he is one of the best Sonic's after all he is 2nd in our state, and a huge part of his game is mind games.

 

[da K.I.D.]

but in order to play mindgames you have to be smarter than your opponent so that you know what he is going to do. and sometimes playing mindgames involves the correct use of all the moves and ATs at your disposal. herrgo, my last comment still stands

 

[Tenki]

using the power of feelings:

F-tilt has more range than D-tilt
F-tilt does more damage than D-tilt
F-tilt is better against shield than D-tilt (F-tilt can shieldpoke with 2nd hit, D-tilt... sets up for being grabbed.)
F-tilt and D-tilt come out around the same time


Therefore, F-tilt is better than D-tilt.

...except for this:
D-tilt has much lower ending lag (IASA taken into account) than F-tilt
D-tilt's trajectory (non-tip) sets up for more moves, and tipper D-tilt tends to cause trips.

They're situationally both safe, but D-tilt is much better as a mid-momentum move (like if you're following up with more hits), while F-tilt is more of a punisher and 'final' kind of move (hit and run, gtfo move)

also, with the combined power of Ganondorf standing D-tilt and grounded grab release...

;] you're awesome, Phoenix.

 

[R4ZE]

but in order to play mindgames you have to be smarter than your opponent so that you know what he is going to do. and sometimes playing mindgames involves the correct use of all the moves and ATs at your disposal. herrgo, my last comment still stands

i really disagree with that. you dont really have to be smarter, because sonic can mindgame with so many of his techniques, and then if u add in the fact that he moves fast.. i think its obvious.. sonic really is probobly the easiest character to play mindgames with.

Therefore, F-tilt is better than D-tilt.

F-tilt may hurt sheilds more, but dtilt being lower to the ground also tends to hit people even when they have their sheild up...

ALSO dtilt knocks people up into the air which usually sets up for a nice fair/uair or hyphen smash.




i mean. i see your point tho tenki.. I think both moves are equally usable. i prefer d-tilt myself.

 

[Camalange]

How can you disagree with being smarter than your opponent? Almost all Sonic skill comes from knowledge of your opponent, each characters, your character, and of yourself personally. Especially when Sonic, but I do agree that he's the easiest to mindgame with, but if you're not smart you can't mindgame

 

[da K.I.D.]

Rase, do you ever play with people that you know are better than you at this game?
honest question.

also, f-tilt is great against really good ppl, since they will try to p-shield it, and get hit by the second hit

 

[ROOOOY!]

also, f-tilt is great against really good ppl, since they will try to p-shield it, and get hit by the second hit

Good God yes. I spam this move like Umby spams his penis in mens faces. It's too good.

Sonic can never be a well rounded character. You can never force opponents into uncomfortable positions. You can never take control of the match, Sonic doesn't have the tools to do that. Even when you're gaining momentum it's an uphill battle.

 

[infomon]

But he's so freaking cool

I'm a billion times better with my main, but I only practice with Sonic now. ftw.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic can never be a well rounded character. You can never force opponents into uncomfortable positions. You can never take control of the match, Sonic doesn't have the tools to do that. Even when you're gaining momentum it's an uphill battle.

Grab. lol it's one of Sonic's only tools of control in the match.

;D I grabbed a Snake 3x in a row earlier, it was pretty funny.

 

[JMan8891]

General knowledge is always good. More options and more possibilities = a good thing, am-i-right?
For example, i went to Gamer's Edge Brawl Weekly (went 3 times consecutivley, now im too poor to go with my new apartment and Walgreens may as well pay me cheese... lol) and i was the first "good sonic" they saw. They didn't even realize that at 80%+, it wasn't safe to hold an edge as a running B-air stage spikes anyone save MAYBE another sonic if the B-air was staled, lol.
I stand at 4th, 4th, and i THINK 7th (for some reason, i've asked several times for official results and can't seem to get them... dunno why) and i tried different things that i've read up on here for each (all out aggresive in 1st.... owned by Devin's Marth... pwnt hard...)
So... i pracitced sheild grabbing, and from watching RSR, the offstage D-air semi spike done very quickly. Pwnt him in 5 consecutive matches by gimping extremley well, and put him out of the tourney. From there, i lost to this random 12 year old kids ROB
R1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5zojIvE-n0
R2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B5oHpP67Cs
So... i tried that more defensive gameplan... and noticed that sometimes... sheilding and not the fastest attacks can get you ownd pretty bad too... lol (and the 2nd rounds b-throw at REALLY low percent... too good, saw it coming, failed to stop it, lol )
3rd tourney: a balance. Played my 1st set against the guy who mains snake and placed first in BOTH previous tourneys. He didn't think he'd loose to Sonic, and tried zss, pwnt hard. Then... snake... CLOSE, but the knockback of his tilts, priority of tilts/jabs/speed of them all... ended with me at higher % on our last stocks... and that freaking U-tilt.... lol *beastly*
Then, the guy who placed 3rd, a newcomer who mains ike. I thought it was wraped up. But he spaced so effectivley and litterally played mistake free... he almost 3 stocked me in both matches. I figured his patter on my very last stock, got one kill and an additional 140%, but my 90% start screwed me there, and no, not gimping that ike, lol

Wall of text aside: i DID come here to see what other good sonic's were doing. I KNOW that my biggest holes in my game are A missed/committing to attacks i just want to hit (spin dash to B-air without proper jumping... :/) and B Basics (i almost never spot dodge, and generally never needed to shield grab until i played some of these "better" players and noticed some of these general holes). 4th, 4th, and 7th against technical players when im far from technical = "****, your good, and the best freakin sonic i've seen... why don't you main someone else? you'd do so much better as a MK or TL." Because: im dedicated to Sonic, and my "poor habit" style only works with the fastest, random character that is sonic. I've improved consiberably this past month by actually venturing into the tourney scene.

"Sonic can never flat out own. Doesn't have it. In skilled hands, with a good mind and reading ability, he is quite compitent and an excelling gimper. Use that, and Remeber well:

Tires don exits, and Dont Get Hit (so wanted to wear that shirt when i owned a campy olimar, snake, pit, and pwnt that marth, lol

 

[Napilopez]

Can never force opponents into uncomfortable positions? I umm, anti-concur. Gimping is one thing about Sonic many people seem to have forgotten, and I'd say much of Sonics gimping game is forcing people into uncomfortable positions(spring bombing anyone?)

You can never take control of the match? I have to disagree with that. I honestly don't even see what taking control of the match has to do with a specific character. Might be somewhat harder with some characters, but nowhere near impossible. As Tenki said, grabbing, and grabbing well is one of Sonic's assets. I think Sonic can rack up damage much too quickly with only a pair of "combos" for it to be said he can't take control of the match. Beginning of a match: Grab+Uthrow and follow up with ASC+Aerial or SDR+SDJ+Aerial is already 50ish damage. The pressure Sonic can apply with his speed, if you're playing him right and taking advantage of an opponents mistakes, is much too good.

It might depend on your definition of "uncomfortable positions" and "control", so maybe I'm missing something.

I do, however, agree that Sonic is not a well rounded character. He can't be. The best you can do is take advantage of his assets and adapt to his weaknesses.

 

[infomon]

I umm, anti-concur.

LOL it's called "disagreeing" I'm gonna start using "anti-concur" now, it's awesome.

Just sayin'.

 

[Greenstreet]

as will i.
u changed my life.
I like what tenkis sayin, i grab alot in my games, and wen i feint asc's and sd etc, its too try and get a grab.
Its a 'safe' way to rack up damage.

 

[JMan8891]

^rofl,
This, win

 

[da K.I.D.]

also, dash grab is wayyyyy slow and will get spotdodged too often,
stand grab is much faster, has almost the same range, and way less cooldown, herrgo, its by far the better option

 

[___X___]

hello BLUE, i have come into your thread cuz my sonic is better and you know it!!!

hahah!
but yeah i found your thread! i looked for it

 

[R4ZE]

sonics main weakness is that he gets out prioritied. if you play around that weakness, thats when sonic starts to win.


best way to grab with sonic is to sheild cancel side b into a grab. or ASC sheild cancel into a grab. ASC i think is better because sonic actually slides forward a tiny bit, this allows him to grab punish attacks that he normally wouldnt be able to grab after because normally he would get pushed back to far, but the momentum prevents that.

 

[JMan8891]

And yet when people see that twice... they know to essentially *$^%$ you up for it. (Example, pretty much anything ike has... lol) so you have to feint a bit, or just run back for proper spacing. GOOD, but can't be abused like pretty much anything Sonic has. but your right KID, i watched my vid and i often dash grab, it'd be more effective to sheild dash grab in EVERY instance (sheild a possible counter, STILL slide, and a lot less cooldown) hergo, better

 

[Napilopez]

Yay! I love it when people start using my made up words!

And people call me smart, haha.

As for grabbing, yea, I can't think of a single situatin where it would be more advantageous to do a dash grab than a shield dash grab. I tested grab distances(distances, not range) a long time ago, and shield dashgrabs have a grabbing distance near indistinguishable from your standard running grab, minus the humongoliscious lag that a running grab has. A running SideB cancel grab gives you the most distance, but there is a small window of vulnerability as you input the SideB. However, SideB cancelling has the advantage of being able to be done out of a foxtrot. If you try to do a regular shield cancel out of a foxtrot, you'll end up doing a running grab which is a no-no.

 

[R4ZE]

And yet when people see that twice... they know to essentially *$^%$ you up for it. (Example, pretty much anything ike has... lol) so you have to feint a bit, or just run back for proper spacing. GOOD, but can't be abused like pretty much anything Sonic has. but your right KID, i watched my vid and i often dash grab, it'd be more effective to sheild dash grab in EVERY instance (sheild a possible counter, STILL slide, and a lot less cooldown) hergo, better

Well yes!


and to add to this: it also helps to jsut change the timing in which you do your attacks because sonic can actually run to, and attack his opponent at the same speed that a character can swing their weapon.


so just by altering the timing it throw's their punish off just enuff to beat it. sonic is always dependant on catchying ur opponent off gaurd, abuse mind games and speed to acheive this. (the timing that im talking about mainly works with SC,SD, HA, DAIR, dash attack, grabs, ASC, and spring>uair)

hold your SC's until u see an opening, just watch your opponent squirm until you see it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats the best way to get better is watch your own vids
also, if you get really desperate for a kill just up throw above 190%
and gimp ROB with HA, they cant defend against it while they are flying

 

[Tenki]

thats the best way to get better is watch your own vids
also, if you get really desperate for a kill just up throw above 190%
and gimp ROB with HA, they cant defend against it while they are flying

lol U-throw is the best kill move Sonic has.

just because when you grab them, both of you know the game's over. It's pretty satisfying.

@ROB: he can N-air or U-air or B-air :[

oh, especially that B-air. screws up homing attack hard.

----------
edit: yeah, I watched what I did wrong/right in the Rowan vs Sonic vids and noticed I could F-air him out of his short float, and I abused it like crazy on our next encounter a few days ago.

needless to say, I did much better, and he didn't start winning until about the 4th-5th round in. and well... then he found a countermovement for it which got me off guard for about 4-5 rounds too lol.

XD

 

[JMan8891]

I really need vids up were i look half as good as i am... i have 2 online jokefests, and that horrid semi final vs random ROB
tho... when the marth recording looses 5 in a row pre tourney... he just may loose your "good" matches rofl

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol

10lols

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Wanna make Sonic good? Use his strengths, I'll have you guys figure out what to do. Think long and hard .



Oh I'm experimenting with Sonic again, I'm going to add something to his game I find it quite useful for killing alot of characters. Could even give Meta some trouble if this succeeds, well back to the lab for me.

 

[IceDX]

I already mentioned this in another thread but it would help to post it here anyway i think....
most of us that have played sonic for quite some time should know this: soniocs playstyle tends to be predictable so what we sould do its mixit up once we notice that we are being predicted so U know what we should work on....

we should categorize a list of the diferent sonic style of gameplay that we know so far and give credits to whoever was seen using each of them....

as far as i know sonics styles can be:

reg sonic (basic gameplay) like Mr 3000
Agrro? like the one _X_ uses
Defensive??
Mindgame rush? thats what i like to call my style jej
ASC/Fait based like the one tenki uses
Grab/Grouded style that the K.I.D. uses

etc. anyone up 4 this??????????? make a thread on it jej....
i would do it but im just not good explaining myself i would just end up confusing you all...
just be sure to put me on the credits.....

this will help lots of sonic mains that have already masterd or near masterd there style to view how other sonics play style is like so they can use it to and that will allow us to advance in sonic´s meta game