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What it takes to make sonic a well rounded character

-Blue-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
265
Location
Woodbridge, NJ
Ok sonic mainers i have a big issue at hand. but first off My name is Blue im a sonic mainer of the east coast, north atlantic region, northern NJ. i've placed pretty high as a known sonic mainer in nj. but any way.

Sonic has made a bit of name for himself and thus slowly moving him up in the tier rankings over here in the east coast. But have anyone noticed that bc of this many brawlers have found ways to put an end to most if not all of sonics renouned combos and techs. Brawlers are no longer unaware of sonics potiential. He has become a threat that ppl began to stop underestimating. Though you may see sonic up in ranks we see that sonic has become overly predictable in matches. Sonic is a straight forward character without much to leave unspotted.

what can, we as sonic mainers, increase the speed and defensive tactics. When i view other sonic mainers i see them rushing opp. and trying to pressure the opp. and keeping them on their toes. This may have worked in the early sonic days but now ppl have known to out priortize sonic in the most unbelievable and easy way. how can sonic pressure opp. with speed without much priorty. it is only good to those who dont recognize sonic. but now with his moveset being known it is far more impossible to pull.

My sonic on the otherhand is not a fast sonic like the rest im prolly beyond the slowest moving sonic in the sonic community. my style was to focuse on using sonics speed in a defensive way rather than offensive. My sonic played on opp. mistakes and lag of movements. But that too my style of only using speed to exploit weaknesses to conserve % has been put to rest. Brawlers are getting better and more aware of every character pushing sonic further back down in ranks.

Another sonic strat was to play mindgames, now this is something that helped sonic more than the other two. he was fast and hard for other brawlers to have quick enough reflexes to counter. But yet again this have taught brawlers to be patient and wait for an approach that didn't leave them open. Many players just learn simple spacing that made sonic useless enough that it resorted to a sonic mainer to use a spindash game which can be punished and furthermore VERY predictable.

I want all of us in the US to combine our minds and find ways to increased sonics movement speed, unpredictability, and successive linked combos without letting the opp. out priortize you. What can we sonic mainers do to lessen the straight forward blue blurr. I have thought of manny different ways to accomplish this. many sonic mainers claim that sonic has no projectiles to help aid him in matches like vs. a meta knight. I've thought and said HEY sonic does have a projectile THE SPRING!!! if we all find ways to put the spring into our normal use on and off the stage we could increase the chance of catching opp. off guard and setting up for both old and new combos. yes the spring may seem useless if used to create a combo on the stage other than a simple gimp. but have anyone noticed that vs a meta knight the spring stops both meta knight's tornado and the shuttle loop making it easy to Dair. this works randomly sometimes but if we find out the dynamics of that spring sonic might be able to successufully have a new found projectile attack that helps for fake outs and other things. this should help also, he has invinsability frames for the first half of the spring making it easy to escape and attack at the same time. i believe the spring has 2 frames but yea correct me if im wrong.

Wat can we do to make sonic faster, more unpredictable and have more agility when dealing with platform stages like BF when opp. can avoid sonics spindash and other combos such as the spring down air? Lets combine our original techs to make sonic less of a joke. We may get respect for getting sonic this far but not for sonic himself.when we play as sonic we prolly get excuses like oh you played someone that sucked or you are just a betr brawler and maining someother character we would be loads better. it would never be that sonic himself is beginning to look better. Thanks you sonic community in advance to helping make sonic increase all around in every bit of his assets.
 

Chis

Finally a legend
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I'm not American but i'll contribute anyway. Sakurai obviously designed Sonic as he is represented in his games, moves fast, hit many really fast times ect. By giving his moves low priority, he wanted Sonic mainers to use his attacks with a purpose. To find the right situation to use them so priority wont matter. Sonic was built for players with quick reactions and a adapting gameplay. If you fail at doing something, adapt and create a certain response from your opponent (mindgames) to take advantage. All of Sonic's moves have more then one way they can be used.
Sonic's tilts come out fast but not hard. With dtilts low knock back it's easy to link with the other tilts and grab. Say someone rolls behind you, with quick reactions you can dtilt>ftilt them after the invinciblity frames finish.
Example, the spring. We all know what it can do in the air but what about one the ground? Dash attack > spring > bair at high percentages.
Sonic was not built to be a one hit character. He was built to be as good in the hands of some who knows what all his moves can do, chain into, take fully advantage of mistakes ect, ect...

I would say more but...
 

-Blue-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
265
Location
Woodbridge, NJ
I'm not American but i'll contribute anyway. Sakurai obviously designed Sonic as he is represented in his games, moves fast, hit many really fast times ect. By giving his moves low priority, he wanted Sonic mainers to use his attacks with a purpose. To find the right situation to use them so priority wont matter. Sonic was built for players with quick reactions and a adapting gameplay. If you fail at doing something, adapt and create a certain response from your opponent (mindgames) to take advantage. All of Sonic's moves have more then one way they can be used.
Sonic's tilts come out fast but not hard. With dtilts low knock back it's easy to link with the other tilts and grab. Say someone rolls behind you, with quick reactions you can dtilt>ftilt them after the invinciblity frames finish.
Example, the spring. We all know what it can do in the air but what about one the ground? Dash attack > spring > bair at high percentages.
Sonic was not built to be a one hit character. He was built to be as good in the hands of some who knows what all his moves can do, chain into, take fully advantage of mistakes ect, ect...

I would say more but...
That's a perfect example. i would like to hear more if thats ok. many sonic mainers need to know some of what you are saying. plz if you don't mind continue ^_^
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
Location
GA
Most of these aren't character faults, but player faults.

The only predictable things Sonic has are his D-air, Spring, and smashes, since they sort of project their movements and aren't cancellable.
 

Chis

Finally a legend
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Messages
4,797
Location
London, England
NNID
ArcadianPirate
Okay then.

His dtilt can edge guard, lead to another down tilt, up tilt, forward tilt, grabs and jabs.

Sonic's all about thinking outside the box. You have to think about the properties of each move,ect.

Sonic isn't just about using AT (advance techniques), it's about applying them in the situation. Also playing on his strengths (taking advantage of this slide sliding). Say you hit Sonic's dash attack with the initial hit (6% damage) and you too far to follow it up, you do a 3x stutter steep forward smash. Sonic's obviously a great edge guarder, with many ways kill many different opponents making their way to the stage. Take the homing attack for example. If you HA some before the have use their double jump, they will lose it. Plus, if you space right you can edge guard those with multiple jumps. Kirby, Dedede ect. I don't see enough of that.
Also his BV and B> great attacks... ASC can be used as an approach but also as edge guarding if use carefully and correctly. ASC first hit should raise them into the air if you don't hold forward >HA on characters at >110% works. But I have leave it there I afraid. I'm using the Wii browser to type this so my hands quite tried. I'll finish later.

Edit: Tenki it's just the most effective way I see Sonic being played.
 

-Blue-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
265
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Woodbridge, NJ
Okay then.

His dtilt can edge guard, lead to another down tilt, up tilt, forward tilt, grabs and jabs.

Sonic's all about thinking outside the box. You have to think about the properties of each move,ect.

Sonic isn't just about using AT (advance techniques), it's about applying them in the situation. Also playing on his strengths (taking advantage of this slide sliding). Say you hit Sonic's dash attack with the initial hit (6% damage) and you too far to follow it up, you do a 3x stutter steep forward smash. Sonic's obviously a great edge guarder, with many ways kill many different opponents making their way to the stage. Take the homing attack for example. If you HA some before the have use their double jump, they will use it. Plus, if you space right you can edge guard those with multiple jumps. Kirby, Dedede ect. I don't see enough of that.
Also his BV and B> great attacks... ASC can be used as an approach but also as edge guarding if use carefully and correctly. ASC first hit should raise them into the air if you don't hold forward >HA on characters at >110% works. But I have leave it there I afraid. I'm using the Wii browser to type this so my hands quite tried. I'll finish later.

Edit: Tenki it's just the most effective way I see Sonic being played.
Thanx Chris that really helps alot. i really mean it.

Is there anything else you sonic mainers have to say that could make sonic tons betr and more advanced than he is known to be now?
 

IceDX

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
683
Location
Tijuana, México
NNID
TheIceDX001
all i can say is that in order to represent sonic and really make him stand out the first things sonics need to start doing is not to worry so much about advaced techs and trying to showoff, people need to really concentrate on developing their overall skills first before all that.....

there are still many things we dont know about sonic but with enough skill we can even Spindash tru Mk's nados....
 

ROOOOY!

Smash Master
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Messages
3,118
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Camp more. Side taunt more. Stay in mid-close range, or further away if you're not against a projectilist. Don't run in there to approach and expect any purchase out of it. Sonic's tilts are seriously underrated I feel for spacing, please use them more. Side taunt more. Sonic's grabs are the best thing about him IMO, it's the only point in the match where he actually gets any say in dictating the gameplay in any way. Use the throws wisely, for positioning where you'd most want your enemy (most likely in the air for his chasing ability unless you're playing someone with a godly air game.) You can solve Sonic's priority problem (even though it's MASSIVELY overstated (which attacks actually have really bad priority other than SDR and nair?)) by picking your openings well and then once you get inside do not stop. Most characters lack a real GTFO move, and find Sonic a pain to get off. Down taunt is underrated. Spindash/charge from close range so the opponent has no time to react to punish you or don't do it at all, I infact rarely use B moves. Do your best to slow the gameplay down, then side taunt.
This is in no order and has no structure but I don't care I wanted to post something and I basically wrote what was coming into my head.
 

-Blue-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
265
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Woodbridge, NJ
Camp more. Side taunt more. Stay in mid-close range, or further away if you're not against a projectilist. Don't run in there to approach and expect any purchase out of it. Sonic's tilts are seriously underrated I feel for spacing, please use them more. Side taunt more. Sonic's grabs are the best thing about him IMO, it's the only point in the match where he actually gets any say in dictating the gameplay in any way. Use the throws wisely, for positioning where you'd most want your enemy (most likely in the air for his chasing ability unless you're playing someone with a godly air game.) You can solve Sonic's priority problem (even though it's MASSIVELY overstated (which attacks actually have really bad priority other than SDR and nair?)) by picking your openings well and then once you get inside do not stop. Most characters lack a real GTFO move, and find Sonic a pain to get off. Down taunt is underrated. Spindash/charge from close range so the opponent has no time to react to punish you or don't do it at all, I infact rarely use B moves. Do your best to slow the gameplay down, then side taunt.
This is in no order and has no structure but I don't care I wanted to post something and I basically wrote what was coming into my head.
why would you say that there is no structure. do you even know what you are talking about. im asking for every sonic mainer to post and find ways to better sonic THAT is the structure. choose your words correctly bro. no offense at all. in order to get better we need to help eachother learn new things that could better everyone as a brawler not shun a thread with your comment for your own selfish needs, thats wrong. and ignoring the brawl communities request for help.
 

Camalange

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why would you say that there is no structure. do you even know what you are talking about. im asking for every sonic mainer to post and find ways to better sonic THAT is the structure. choose your words correctly bro. no offense at all. in order to get better we need to help eachother learn new things that could better everyone as a brawler not shun a thread with your comment for your own selfish needs, thats wrong. and ignoring the brawl communities request for help.
I think he was referring to his post...he put all his random thoughts together in no order and it had no structure, lol. But, it's good to see that your serious about your thread. I agree with what ROOOY says. Sonic's tilts are great for spacing and Sonic's priority really isn't as bad as people think. I mean, his Side B eats projectiles, his smashes are decent, and his aerials are decent. Overall, the main word is decent. This is all I really have to say at the moment, but I wish your thread best of luck.
 

-Blue-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
265
Location
Woodbridge, NJ
I think he was referring to his post...he put all his random thoughts together in no order and it had no structure, lol. But, it's good to see that your serious about your thread. I agree with what ROOOY says. Sonic's tilts are great for spacing and Sonic's priority really isn't as bad as people think. I mean, his Side B eats projectiles, his smashes are decent, and his aerials are decent. Overall, the main word is decent. This is all I really have to say at the moment, but I wish your thread best of luck.
lol, thanks for clearing that up for me Camalange. i believe the same he is adverage. i believe he has a well rounded biostat if you'll allow me to call it that. he's quick with no real lag unless you make him have lag lol. he's mid weight and with with moderate physical reach surprisingly (the Forward smash). he does a good job giving damage fast and has exceptional recovery. the only thing ppl call a flaw is his killing moves. i believe it was just a trade with taking some of that power lost and added it into speed. sonic is an adverage character. ppl only care about what kills first rather than play smart. many sonic mainers learn to think 2 or 3 moves ahead bc he's so fast. characters that excell in one stat only are the ones quick to master bc you focus on whats already great ex. MK's turnado and shuttle loop. they spam the moves. as to sonic and many others he's all around good which leaves no room for cheap and quick wins. once you learn to use him properly he will become one of the best. the longer it takes to become experienced with a character the better. those who main the top tiers only spam and over use what is already good and known to that character instead of exploring the other potientials a character has. sonics not that bad at killing if you know what you are doing. it should not take someone to 180% to give a kill not if used correctly like tricking your opp. with speed and tripping them up to finish the final blow. Thats what brawlers should think of characters. not put a character at the top of the list because of one or 2 moves. bc remember it is only a few months since brawl was released we have more to discover and by then beating mk's would be a breeze.

.......lol i use mk as an ex too much. but that's mainly bc mk gives sonic somewhat the most problems aside from marth XD IMO

Also with that being said about him being adverage he has speed that puts a sonic at an advantage over any character.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
Location
GA
[1] Though you may see sonic up in ranks we see that sonic has become overly predictable in matches. Sonic is a straight forward character without much to leave unspotted.

[2] what can, we as sonic mainers, increase the speed and defensive tactics. When i view other sonic mainers i see them rushing opp. and trying to pressure the opp. and keeping them on their toes. This may have worked in the early sonic days but now ppl have known to out priortize sonic in the most unbelievable and easy way. how can sonic pressure opp. with speed without much priorty. it is only good to those who dont recognize sonic. but now with his moveset being known it is far more impossible to pull.

[3] My sonic on the otherhand is not a fast sonic like the rest im prolly beyond the slowest moving sonic in the sonic community. my style was to focuse on using sonics speed in a defensive way rather than offensive. My sonic played on opp. mistakes and lag of movements. But that too my style of only using speed to exploit weaknesses to conserve % has been put to rest. Brawlers are getting better and more aware of every character pushing sonic further back down in ranks.

[4] Another sonic strat was to play mindgames, now this is something that helped sonic more than the other two. he was fast and hard for other brawlers to have quick enough reflexes to counter. But yet again this have taught brawlers to be patient and wait for an approach that didn't leave them open. Many players just learn simple spacing that made sonic useless enough that it resorted to a sonic mainer to use a spindash game which can be punished and furthermore VERY predictable.

[5] I want all of us in the US to combine our minds and find ways to increased sonics movement speed, unpredictability, and successive linked combos without letting the opp. out priortize you. What can we sonic mainers do to lessen the straight forward blue blurr. I have thought of manny different ways to accomplish this. many sonic mainers claim that sonic has no projectiles to help aid him in matches like vs. a meta knight. I've thought and said HEY sonic does have a projectile THE SPRING!!! if we all find ways to put the spring into our normal use on and off the stage we could increase the chance of catching opp. off guard and setting up for both old and new combos. yes the spring may seem useless if used to create a combo on the stage other than a simple gimp. but have anyone noticed that vs a meta knight the spring stops both meta knight's tornado and the shuttle loop making it easy to Dair. this works randomly sometimes but if we find out the dynamics of that spring sonic might be able to successufully have a new found projectile attack that helps for fake outs and other things. this should help also, he has invinsability frames for the first half of the spring making it easy to escape and attack at the same time. i believe the spring has 2 frames but yea correct me if im wrong.

[6] Wat can we do to make sonic faster, more unpredictable and have more agility when dealing with platform stages like BF when opp. can avoid sonics spindash and other combos such as the spring down air? Lets combine our original techs to make sonic less of a joke. We may get respect for getting sonic this far but not for sonic himself.when we play as sonic we prolly get excuses like oh you played someone that sucked or you are just a betr brawler and maining someother character we would be loads better. it would never be that sonic himself is beginning to look better. Thanks you sonic community in advance to helping make sonic increase all around in every bit of his assets.
[1] - Being predictable, unless it's those moves I listed before, are player faults and not character faults. Even if it was a character fault, it's something you can use to your advantage, as baits for certain opponent reactions. I believe I'm fairly predictable, especially when pressured by the opponent - I usually try to resort to some sort of spindash based thing to break out of it, but that's not always the best choice.
[2] - Well, being all out aggressive isn't good. I have a bad tendency sometimes to bumrush and try to grab people in move lag that they don't really have.
[3] - At the same time, as I believe you've seen, better players don't leave themselves open too often. I'm used to fighting crappy Snakes that leave themselves in landing lag, which is pretty easy to camp, and when I go up against a smart Snake who doesn't, I get screwed up.
[4] - Alright, here's where it kinda starts to break down. Using feints and using mindgames are not necessarily the same thing. Mindgaming is a power upon the player. You feint alot, then your opponent starts to be more campy and wait for you to approach, waiting for that one moment when you run past a certain point, signaling that you're really going to attack this time. You can even fake an aggressive style where you run at your opponent, but really be in a defensive mindset, where you're completely prepared to block or dodge your opponent's attacks. I'll admit that a Spindash-based game can be very predictable. It's one of my favorite moves, and as such, I really overabuse them, and people even began expecting me to do ASC>grab, since it's my "original technique". However, this opens up the door to non-spindash based play. Use alot of spindash feints, and maybe one or two actual spindash approaches, so people begin shielding you, then suddenly go into a normal running-based approach, like running shield-grab. That's mindgames.
[5] - At the first point, I'm trying to get people to work on their followups. That's what the 'pop quiz' thread is for. On the second bold, there was a thread that BlueTerrorist and I were working on for the spring. It hasn't gotten much attention, and it's kinda fallen back with the end of Summer. We had crazy grounded-spring use, and at one point, I pulled an "L-cancel"-type combo using a grounded spring to cancel my aerials and did a F-air>D-air>B-air on someone who's long since left the Sonic boards. Spring>D-air is, however, one of Sonic's predictable moves. I found that if you try to drop springs on someone, they can just pay attention to which direction you're facing, roll/run a certain distance, and hit you out of it with a U-smash or grab you. Anyway, yes, springs are nice on MK, since he has so few moves that can break it lol. Oh, and on the spring note, I once brought up this use for grounded spring, using it to cancel an MK's rising tornado and using his button inputs to turn it into a side-B and possibly suicide off the stage, and if not, set up for a grab or smash on Sonic's part.
[6] - Use a mix of the three styles/strategies you listed down, and be a better player. Really. Like, be aggressive on someone, and then break off and go defensive as they try to bring momentum back to themselves, and after you counter their attempt, go aggro again, then mindgame for the last kill. However, that's not something character specific. Mindgames especially- like I said before, getting these down are... well, traits of being a better player.

he's mid weight and with with moderate physical reach surprisingly (the Forward smash). he does a good job giving damage fast and has exceptional recovery. the only thing ppl call a flaw is his killing moves.
Well, don't use the word "cheap", it brings to mind something unbeatable, which is usually an excuse made on mechanics rather than player skill.

What most people will claim to be Sonic's problem is his small range. Sure, he's got it decent with his U-air, D-air, F-tilt, F-smash, but they're not disjointed (well, maybe except for F-smash).

In the end, there are problems fighting people with large attack auras that protect their hitboxes, like Lucario and Marth, among others.
-------------

It doesn't really matter, whether or not Sonic is a good character if he's the character you do best with. Gimpyfish admitted Bowser was bad, and still gained respect of being beastly with him. In aib's chatroom, he said Sonic was bad. It's all the same. Reading him and Shadowlink84 (lol) go on, he never gave reasons as to why Sonic is bad, he just said it. I realized that even if Sonic's a crappy character, the core group that mains him are still above awesome when it comes to gameplay, and that's why we don't believe he's bad.

Still, be the better player. I'll still try to come up with ideas or whatever that people may have overlooked and see what better Sonic mains can do with them, and when I can't anymore, I'll try to bring up the rest of the Sonic community with stupid threads like the pop quiz thing, and maybe guides. `.`;
 

Camalange

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Wait, shadowlink84 debated with Gimpy? I gotta see this. Direct me please?
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Wait, shadowlink84 debated with Gimpy? I gotta see this. Direct me please?
In a nutshell, it was basically this:

SL84: Why is Sonic a bad character?
Gimpyfish: I'm not here to argue why, lol, just linking people to the tier list. He is bad.
SL84 goes to play some games, and comes back from AFK
SL84: You still didn't answer my question, Gimpy.
Gimpyfish: Sonic is bad.

It wasn't really a debate.

But we all already know why Sonic is bad, and if you don't admit it, you at least know why other people think he's bad.

KO power, range, priority, attack speed.
 

Camalange

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Oh, that's all?
I know why Sonic is bad, but the way you put it kinda made it sound like Shadowlink went one on one with Gimpy.
 

Greenstreet

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
2,965
he is adverage lol...
why don't you tell us more of what you think -blue-?
 

R4ZE

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
721
Location
Florida
in response to the first post: that is exactly what i ahve been trying to tell all the sonic's on these boards for like 2 months.


basicly everyone thinks sonic is only good if he applies some rediculous pressure game... and thats really the opposite.


use ur speed and mobility as defence, and counter things. thats how i play, and it works. and i **** ppl that u all say are sonic counters.

but im kinda done trying to convince u guys, because i dont have any video or tournament results to prove it... so i already know u wont beleive me and thats fine. but its still true. maybe blue here can back me up on this.
 

Boxob

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
2,101
Location
Long Island NY.
Think like a Boxob.

Play fast, smart, and unpredictable.

The best way to do this is say one move out loud to your opponent, then do another.

:093:
 

-Blue-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
265
Location
Woodbridge, NJ
[1] - Being predictable, unless it's those moves I listed before, are player faults and not character faults. Even if it was a character fault, it's something you can use to your advantage, as baits for certain opponent reactions. I believe I'm fairly predictable, especially when pressured by the opponent - I usually try to resort to some sort of spindash based thing to break out of it, but that's not always the best choice.
[2] - Well, being all out aggressive isn't good. I have a bad tendency sometimes to bumrush and try to grab people in move lag that they don't really have.
[3] - At the same time, as I believe you've seen, better players don't leave themselves open too often. I'm used to fighting crappy Snakes that leave themselves in landing lag, which is pretty easy to camp, and when I go up against a smart Snake who doesn't, I get screwed up.
[4] - Alright, here's where it kinda starts to break down. Using feints and using mindgames are not necessarily the same thing. Mindgaming is a power upon the player. You feint alot, then your opponent starts to be more campy and wait for you to approach, waiting for that one moment when you run past a certain point, signaling that you're really going to attack this time. You can even fake an aggressive style where you run at your opponent, but really be in a defensive mindset, where you're completely prepared to block or dodge your opponent's attacks. I'll admit that a Spindash-based game can be very predictable. It's one of my favorite moves, and as such, I really overabuse them, and people even began expecting me to do ASC>grab, since it's my "original technique". However, this opens up the door to non-spindash based play. Use alot of spindash feints, and maybe one or two actual spindash approaches, so people begin shielding you, then suddenly go into a normal running-based approach, like running shield-grab. That's mindgames.
[5] - At the first point, I'm trying to get people to work on their followups. That's what the 'pop quiz' thread is for. On the second bold, there was a thread that BlueTerrorist and I were working on for the spring. It hasn't gotten much attention, and it's kinda fallen back with the end of Summer. We had crazy grounded-spring use, and at one point, I pulled an "L-cancel"-type combo using a grounded spring to cancel my aerials and did a F-air>D-air>B-air on someone who's long since left the Sonic boards. Spring>D-air is, however, one of Sonic's predictable moves. I found that if you try to drop springs on someone, they can just pay attention to which direction you're facing, roll/run a certain distance, and hit you out of it with a U-smash or grab you. Anyway, yes, springs are nice on MK, since he has so few moves that can break it lol. Oh, and on the spring note, I once brought up this use for grounded spring, using it to cancel an MK's rising tornado and using his button inputs to turn it into a side-B and possibly suicide off the stage, and if not, set up for a grab or smash on Sonic's part.
[6] - Use a mix of the three styles/strategies you listed down, and be a better player. Really. Like, be aggressive on someone, and then break off and go defensive as they try to bring momentum back to themselves, and after you counter their attempt, go aggro again, then mindgame for the last kill. However, that's not something character specific. Mindgames especially- like I said before, getting these down are... well, traits of being a better player.


Well, don't use the word "cheap", it brings to mind something unbeatable, which is usually an excuse made on mechanics rather than player skill.

What most people will claim to be Sonic's problem is his small range. Sure, he's got it decent with his U-air, D-air, F-tilt, F-smash, but they're not disjointed (well, maybe except for F-smash).

In the end, there are problems fighting people with large attack auras that protect their hitboxes, like Lucario and Marth, among others.
-------------

It doesn't really matter, whether or not Sonic is a good character if he's the character you do best with. Gimpyfish admitted Bowser was bad, and still gained respect of being beastly with him. In aib's chatroom, he said Sonic was bad. It's all the same. Reading him and Shadowlink84 (lol) go on, he never gave reasons as to why Sonic is bad, he just said it. I realized that even if Sonic's a crappy character, the core group that mains him are still above awesome when it comes to gameplay, and that's why we don't believe he's bad.

Still, be the better player. I'll still try to come up with ideas or whatever that people may have overlooked and see what better Sonic mains can do with them, and when I can't anymore, I'll try to bring up the rest of the Sonic community with stupid threads like the pop quiz thing, and maybe guides. `.`;
Awsome explaination. i agree. but now i will now begin to ask questions that will bring our sonic community higher. we have done enough positive explaination lol. so first off....

1. What moves or strat is best for helping sonic move faster? would foxtrot better or spindash approach or simply running, or maybe spin shooting?

2. what would help sonic become better on platform stages?

3. what would be the best offensive approach?

4. What would be a better defense against projectiles? it could be a spindash approach but then that too leads to being lured and predictable.

5 Last would be how and in what way could the spring be used to be concidered a projectile thats most effective and safe that allows set ups for combos?

Sad to say sonic is so straight forward we must combine all the assets into one instead of excelling in only one. sonic has the ability to adapt to any character in battle. that's what i like about sonic. but with such a simple style it makes it harder for one mind to solve.
 

Camalange

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Think like a Boxob.

Play fast, smart, and unpredictable.

The best way to do this is say one move out loud to your opponent, then do another.

:093:
I like this approach.
"I WILL NOW PROCEED WITH AN UP THROW, SPRING, AND FINISH WITH AN UP AERIAL!"
*Forward smashes*

As for Blue

1. -Foxtrotting makes Sonic slower, but it's good to trick out an opponent. A good mix up of spindashes, running, and spinshots are good.
2. -Spindash. You can do a lot of things with one of those on a platform. ASC, spindash shield cancel, regular ol' spindash...Sonic can juggle under platforms with Uair or Usmash. Fair hits well too.
3. -For Sonic's offence, you can never have one approach. Run and do an aerial, or ASC. Run, shield grab, mix in some smashes and jabs. It's really all about what your facing.
4. -Counterpick a stage with platforms?
5. -I think Tenki has some kinda thread on this stuff. I'll have to get back to you on that.
 

Greenstreet

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i have a real issue with this thread, i'm sorry.

Awsome explaination. i agree. but now i will now begin to ask questions that will bring our sonic community higher. we have done enough positive explaination lol. so first off....
I wouldn't have as big an issue with it if you were throwing more insights in yourself. It seems to me that you don't really have much experience and are just making a thread for the sake of making 1. And the language used is so ambigious.

Such as:

1. What moves or strat is best for helping sonic move faster? would foxtrot better or spindash approach or simply running, or maybe spin shooting?

2. what would help sonic become better on platform stages?

3. what would be the best offensive approach?

4. What would be a better defense against projectiles? it could be a spindash approach but then that too leads to being lured and predictable.

5 Last would be how and in what way could the spring be used to be concidered a projectile thats most effective and safe that allows set ups for combos?
I dunno, the language used here sounds so general and it's not like people (decent sonic mainers) are going to say:

"Wow, I never asked myself these questions!?"
And what do you hope the answers to be?

Question 1. Sonics starting animation in his run isn't as fast as his full-end sprint. So foxtrotting doesn't speed up Sonic, (not to say its not useless). And as for spin-dashing... you want to Sonic to be faster, but is it worth doing this if you are stuck in the move (yes you can jump out, shield cancel on the charge up, etc etc) but once you release, your sonics gonna b in that predictable move. I just don't see the point in using it just to make Sonic faster? If you want to go somewhere on the stage, run, walk, jump there. Sonic can't foxtrot effectively, and spindashing to get you somewhere faster (unless across an entire map and finish with a jump into a combo) is pretty useless and predictable.


Question 2: Just as general as the first. I'd be less perplexed by this thread if the question were: "Which do you think is more effective: timing an u-air under the platform, u-smashing, spinshotting into an aerial/ HA / etc / etc...?"
But your question are bleeding with ambiguity. The language you use makes it seems like you have only used Sonic for a week or 2. There is no mention of any real techs, moves, (except spin-shotting- and spin-dash..which i think youmightbe getting confused with his dash attack), or mention of priority, range... It's just: "

What would make sonic become better"

Question 3. What would be the best offensive approach?
Simple Answer: Depends on the character. Some characters have d-tilt or down b-s that are gonna stop ur sdr's in their tracks, whilst others have amazing aerials thatll punish you for an aerial approach, while others still have amazing tilts and special moves that own you wen you try and asc them. It's a matter of going in depth on each character and figuring it out. Hence matchup threads existence.

Question 4. What would be a better defense against projectiles? it could be a spindash approach but then that too leads to being lured and predictable.

What projectiles are we talking here. Some don't have the range/ some are weak..

my issue with this 1 is u state: 'what would be a better defense against projectiles' making it seem like there is one unified thing all sonics are doing atm against projectiles. all sonics play a heck of alot different. there are similarities, but we are far from the same. In your mind, wat are we currently doing against projectiles?

Question 5. Last would be how and in what way could the spring be used to be concidered a projectile thats most effective and safe that allows set ups for combos?

Let's think about this. What does the spring do. It shoots you really high...and assuming it's going to be hit and used as a projectile, the opponent is gonna b a fairway underneath you. So options for combo-setting-upping (lol) are pretty limited. Sure there is d-air and if you don't have lag on the end then you might be able to string some stuff together, but as for combos, i doubt it.


I dunno, sorry if i am flaming, i am just not a fan of the generality of this thread, maybe you can be more specific in your questions.

but now i will now begin to ask questions that will bring our sonic community higher

As for your experience with Sonic, who have you played before/ what tourneys have you entered/ who was the most reknowned person you have played?/ is there vids of your sonic up anywhere?

And also i did not like how Tenki chucked a massive spiel about Sonic's game and then all then it was just quoted and stated: Awesome explanation. I agree.

I am all for introducing new techniques and strategies to give Sonic an edge, I just don't think the way you are formatting this is correct.

P.S. Everyone should feel free to flame me if the feel the urge. I'll take it.
 

Emblem Lord

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Less focus on being faster and more focus on being safer.
 

Emblem Lord

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Sonic already moves fast as hell. You won't be able to do much about making him faster.

You can make him safer though.

I suggest you do some intensive studies on his tilts. I mean frame data, start-up time, attack cool down, shield push back, IASA frames, etc.

You need to see how the hell Sonic can stage a safe offensive, instead of just relying on speed, because his speed clearly isn't enough.
 

-Blue-

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i have a real issue with this thread, i'm sorry.



I wouldn't have as big an issue with it if you were throwing more insights in yourself. It seems to me that you don't really have much experience and are just making a thread for the sake of making 1. And the language used is so ambigious.

Such as:



I dunno, the language used here sounds so general and it's not like people (decent sonic mainers) are going to say:

"Wow, I never asked myself these questions!?"
And what do you hope the answers to be?

Question 1. Sonics starting animation in his run isn't as fast as his full-end sprint. So foxtrotting doesn't speed up Sonic, (not to say its not useless). And as for spin-dashing... you want to Sonic to be faster, but is it worth doing this if you are stuck in the move (yes you can jump out, shield cancel on the charge up, etc etc) but once you release, your sonics gonna b in that predictable move. I just don't see the point in using it just to make Sonic faster? If you want to go somewhere on the stage, run, walk, jump there. Sonic can't foxtrot effectively, and spindashing to get you somewhere faster (unless across an entire map and finish with a jump into a combo) is pretty useless and predictable.


Question 2: Just as general as the first. I'd be less perplexed by this thread if the question were: "Which do you think is more effective: timing an u-air under the platform, u-smashing, spinshotting into an aerial/ HA / etc / etc...?"
But your question are bleeding with ambiguity. The language you use makes it seems like you have only used Sonic for a week or 2. There is no mention of any real techs, moves, (except spin-shotting- and spin-dash..which i think youmightbe getting confused with his dash attack), or mention of priority, range... It's just: "

What would make sonic become better"

Question 3. What would be the best offensive approach?
Simple Answer: Depends on the character. Some characters have d-tilt or down b-s that are gonna stop ur sdr's in their tracks, whilst others have amazing aerials thatll punish you for an aerial approach, while others still have amazing tilts and special moves that own you wen you try and asc them. It's a matter of going in depth on each character and figuring it out. Hence matchup threads existence.

Question 4. What would be a better defense against projectiles? it could be a spindash approach but then that too leads to being lured and predictable.

What projectiles are we talking here. Some don't have the range/ some are weak..

my issue with this 1 is u state: 'what would be a better defense against projectiles' making it seem like there is one unified thing all sonics are doing atm against projectiles. all sonics play a heck of alot different. there are similarities, but we are far from the same. In your mind, wat are we currently doing against projectiles?

Question 5. Last would be how and in what way could the spring be used to be concidered a projectile thats most effective and safe that allows set ups for combos?

Let's think about this. What does the spring do. It shoots you really high...and assuming it's going to be hit and used as a projectile, the opponent is gonna b a fairway underneath you. So options for combo-setting-upping (lol) are pretty limited. Sure there is d-air and if you don't have lag on the end then you might be able to string some stuff together, but as for combos, i doubt it.


I dunno, sorry if i am flaming, i am just not a fan of the generality of this thread, maybe you can be more specific in your questions.




As for your experience with Sonic, who have you played before/ what tourneys have you entered/ who was the most reknowned person you have played?/ is there vids of your sonic up anywhere?

And also i did not like how Tenki chucked a massive spiel about Sonic's game and then all then it was just quoted and stated: Awesome explanation. I agree.

I am all for introducing new techniques and strategies to give Sonic an edge, I just don't think the way you are formatting this is correct.

P.S. Everyone should feel free to flame me if the feel the urge. I'll take it.
you say i speak without insight and a sonic mainer that might suck. if you are able to read, my insight is in the explaintation as to why most sonics fail and what could be done to improve a sonic. my language is nothing but positive onlook that might help sonic mainers. i've come to a point in my time maining sonic that relying on my own knowledge isn't enough. so i speak not to tell ppl what to do but to listen to both those more experienced and under to give positive insight. every sonic mainer has something good to bring to the table. and no i will not flame you for your comment bc you are a fellow sonic mainer and brawler of the community and maybe you learning from me not to judge someone that you are not sure of whats being asked you'll later in life ask questions that will better help you understand others reasons. and not say i made a thread to just make one. I want all sonic mainers of this community to feel comfortable telling what they think will work no matter how rediculious it may sound. A community divided will not stand alone. we will only become better if we help eachother rather than making negative post to one another that very well may have a positive look and idea to better us all.

my way of doing that is not to tell ppl what moves to use but to allow them to develope and keep their own individual style by asking and debating on things that would effect them in good or bad ways. i dont like telling ppl what to do. if i find a new tech i'll voice it but to tell someone a strat i will not do. all that does it make all sonic mainers a lil more similar to one another strpping them of their indiviual purpose for maining sonic and using him.
 

Boxob

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Sonic already moves fast as hell. You won't be able to do much about making him faster.

You can make him safer though.

I suggest you do some intensive studies on his tilts. I mean frame data, start-up time, attack cool down, shield push back, IASA frames, etc.

You need to see how the hell Sonic can stage a safe offensive, instead of just relying on speed, because his speed clearly isn't enough.
Only because people don't use it right.

Of course, being safe and making the hit is what counts, but doing it fast is what makes Sonic the controller of the match.

Control is key.

:093:
 

darkNES386

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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but im kinda done trying to convince u guys, because i dont have any video or tournament results to prove it... so i already know u wont beleive me and thats fine. but its still true. maybe blue here can back me up on this.
How about you PM matador and play him. Maybe then we can learn something about how you play Sonic differently/better from some of us.
--------

At -blue-:
Konjin's Lab
Spin-Special-stats
Sonic Match Videos
Match up Discussion
More Match up discussion
Mind Games (but we're letting this one die to fit into VVVV)
Sonic Guide (in work)

I think greenstreet is simply frustrated that you've just shown up on smashboards... and you're not even bothering to read other threads. Instead, you've decided to initiate Sonic discussion here. You've completely disregarded all the other sonic threads listed above that are full of valuable information.

We all know how difficult Sonic has it. Your original post makes it sound like various styles of play with Sonic have been attempted and prove to become faulty over time. The truth is that Sonic can't just pick one style of play and be successful. He can't camp like Snake and he can't go all out offensive with low-risk high reward moves. Sonic will never have a guaranteed WIN strategy. Instead you have to play offensive and defensive at the right times, learn to read your opponent quickly before you blink and the match is over, accumulate massive amounts of knowledge about EACH of Sonic's match ups and do your best to not fall into predictable patterns when approaching and recovering.

It's always great to have another active Sonic Main here. Keep going at this thread if you insist... but please do not be ignorant about the rest of the SonicBoards. Welcome to Smashboards!
 

Tenki

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@Greenstreet:
As long-winded as my posts are, I like it better if responses to them were shorter, unless there are lots of details that you want people to know `.`;

1. What moves or strat is best for helping sonic move faster? would foxtrot better or spindash approach or simply running, or maybe spin shooting?
You don't really need Sonic to be moving faster.

Foxtrots, however, are very underused. Keep this in mind with Sonic's foxtrots. It's possible to move VERY close to Sonic's running speed while foxtrotting. What makes this cool is if you can pull off the foxtrot dance. That is, "reverse" the foxtrot, hit [forward]-[back] at dashdance speed instead of just [forward], and (optionally), re-reverse it to face your opponent. Can you imagine, at Sonic's speed, a sudden shift in momentum? That's basically what it does. You can F-smash out of it pretty easily, and, slightly more difficult, D-smash out of Foxtrot/Dashdance.

But generally, running and not directly attacking the opponent right away is pretty effective. If you've seen my videos against Rowan, sloppily attacking head on against Peach, who has relatively few openings that Sonic can take advantage of, is pretty ineffective (AND frustrating - the suicide at the end of the smashville one.. was one of many forfeited games), and I really didn't start winning (basically, after about 10 games, and getting frustrated over it) until the game before he recorded my win, and I won the majority of the games against his Peach and secondaries after that, since I began to know what to bait and how to punish.

2. what would help sonic become better on platform stages?
Having better control over your ground game and knowing how to use the platform(s) to your advantage.

3. what would be the best offensive approach?
Safest/most control: grab.
Most damaging: Spindash of some sort.
Least commitment: Foxtrot/run

4. What would be a better defense against projectiles? it could be a spindash approach but then that too leads to being lured and predictable.
Against projectiles that you can catch (bananas, turnips, wheels, armors, etc), learn to catch and control the items.

Against slow-moving/"trap" projectiles: shield, or run out of range. These include Mario's fireballs and ZSS stun gun, among others. Shielding leaves you free to dodge whatever followup they use, and running out of range, believe it or not, sometimes baits approaches, since they have to get in range to continue to bother you with projectiles.

Against spammable projectiles: Jump, Grounded spring > side-B in the air, airdash (when applicable).


5 Last would be how and in what way could the spring be used to be concidered a projectile thats most effective and safe that allows set ups for combos?

If you learn how to use Spring as a situational move canceller, you can use grounded springs to your advantage and combo off of them. The example I cited before is one- I pulled F-air>D-air>B-air consecutively on lil cj (who abandoned Sonic for the likes of Pit and Lucas), using the spring to cancel each aerial until the B-air. He was passing the spring, and I jumped at him with F-air, disrupting him, "S"-cancelled, and hit him with an instant D-air on spring, which popped him upwards into the B-air.

But that's not a projectile use.

Spring, as it is right now, is more of a disruptor than anything. In my earlier Sonic days, I used it to set up for F-smashes out of a D-air, but now, my springs tend to get shielded/dodged in a way that they can punish my D-air. One of my starter combos/juggles is ASC (double hit)> U-air > spring > D-air, done as a trap so if they double jump, they get D-aired, and if they airdodge, they get hit by spring. Only once have I actually gotten all of them to hit - he airdodged and got hit by the spring, into the D-air.

I guess if you want to try it, you can try using springs for that purpose - knocking someone out of a projected airdodge, into a D-air so you can continue your juggle.

My question though is, what combos would you link into? falling spring really only combos into a D-air, which pops your opponent upwards. Sonic juggles well, with his foot-clap of priority, but it's not too hard for most characters to airdodge through him, or even out-manuever him in the air: change directions faster than he can, possibly even in a position where they can F/B-air Sonic while he's doing U-air.

Sonic's legitimate combos above 30% either involve: Spindash (both), Grab/Throws, Grounded spring, falling spring, and almost all of them involve low/grounded opponents.
 

da K.I.D.

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EL...
nobody in this character boards has the equipment to do that kind of testing even though i know I, Tenki, Jaybee, and a few other desperately want to.

for the record, falling spring to down air can be a true combo if timed right, and can set up for more spring strings.

and its really upseting how sonic just cant kill from the middle of the stage. i realise this more and more since i started picking up fox, its just so upsetting that at 100% sonic has to have all of these intracate setups for him to get a kill. whereas for most characters, fox can just up smash. sonic doesnt get straight up kills until 150 and thats being generous, basically there isnt much more that we can do because that seems to be the main crutch of my game, my friends know now how to get away from my kill setups, so i have to know wat my mindgame is, know how they are going to avoid it, and than think of something that will work with their preplanned escape method, the need to do things like that instead of just having an instant up smash or forward tilt that will kill at a specific damage
 

darkNES386

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We can always just have dNES write up "How to Play Sonic" in his thread.
You got a smile out of me... I wish I'd get more feedback on the guide so that I know which direction to go in. I'm more than willing to be open to suggestions/corrections and I was doing that for a while.

Read the first post again, read my last couple posts... feedback from at least you umby would be appreciated.
 

Umby

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I'm just your problem~
You got a smile out of me... I wish I'd get more feedback on the guide so that I know which direction to go in. I'm more than willing to be open to suggestions/corrections and I was doing that for a while.

Read the first post again, read my last couple posts... feedback from at least you umby would be appreciated.
Reviewing my post behavior lately, I'd probably just end up calling the previous 3 posters above me *******.
 

-Blue-

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How about you PM matador and play him. Maybe then we can learn something about how you play Sonic differently/better from some of us.
--------

At -blue-:
Konjin's Lab
Spin-Special-stats
Sonic Match Videos
Match up Discussion
More Match up discussion
Mind Games (but we're letting this one die to fit into VVVV)
Sonic Guide (in work)

I think greenstreet is simply frustrated that you've just shown up on smashboards... and you're not even bothering to read other threads. Instead, you've decided to initiate Sonic discussion here. You've completely disregarded all the other sonic threads listed above that are full of valuable information.

We all know how difficult Sonic has it. Your original post makes it sound like various styles of play with Sonic have been attempted and prove to become faulty over time. The truth is that Sonic can't just pick one style of play and be successful. He can't camp like Snake and he can't go all out offensive with low-risk high reward moves. Sonic will never have a guaranteed WIN strategy. Instead you have to play offensive and defensive at the right times, learn to read your opponent quickly before you blink and the match is over, accumulate massive amounts of knowledge about EACH of Sonic's match ups and do your best to not fall into predictable patterns when approaching and recovering.

It's always great to have another active Sonic Main here. Keep going at this thread if you insist... but please do not be ignorant about the rest of the SonicBoards. Welcome to Smashboards!
i didn't disreguard anyother thread. i just keep a low profile. if others answer my question i dont need to post much.
 

Greenstreet

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Messages
2,965
hmmm.. it just doesn't seem to me that -blue- has anything to contribute himself.
other than just asking the questions, what insight have you got on sonic?

and if you are keeping a low profile then why havent u read the guide that states sonics foxtrot wont speed him up?
i just see no evidence of knowledge on sonics finer points... no meta-language that has become common in these boards which you would surely be able to employ if you were just indeed keeping a low profile over this time.
</irritable mood hopefully>

P.S. Fair enough if you want a different colour text... I used to do it but got lazy... But if you are that worried about the appearance of your posts...have a once over check of your posts beforehand and remove all 308950493429 of your spelling + grammar errors.
 

Browny

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EL...
nobody in this character boards has the equipment to do that kind of testing even though i know I, Tenki, Jaybee, and a few other desperately want to.
dont be so sure... ive already got the relative fram data on his attacks (by relative of course i mean which attacks are faster, cool down lag etc) however they are not the actual frames since all my values are slightly higher than other characters (i tested my frames for marths attacks vs his actual frame data and mine were all about 15-20% higher for some reason)

the only interesting things i found.... ftilt/dtilt both have the same start up, however dtilt has a lot less lag (with IASA frames as well). ftilt cannot be shield grabbed but is more punishable.
 

Tenki

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F-tilt and D-tilt have the same startup time? Really? o_O;

I've been feeling like D-tilt was less safe or something, probably cause of the whole.. shieldgrabbable thing, and moving forward into opponent's attack range.

I forgot where you posted the information though ;.; I wanna know their ending lag.



hmmm.. it just doesn't seem to me that -blue- has anything to contribute himself.
other than just asking the questions, what insight have you got on sonic?

and if you are keeping a low profile then why havent u read the guide that states sonics foxtrot wont speed him up?
i just see no evidence of knowledge on sonics finer points... no meta-language that has become common in these boards which you would surely be able to employ if you were just indeed keeping a low profile over this time.
</irritable mood hopefully>

P.S. Fair enough if you want a different colour text... I used to do it but got lazy... But if you are that worried about the appearance of your posts...have a once over check of your posts beforehand and remove all 308950493429 of your spelling + grammar errors.
Blue has contributed some tournament results.

At least, I think he has.

The first time I saw him, it was in the tourney results thread and he was like "hay guys, I'm the no-name Sonic main Blue who won a few times" or something like that. __X__ seemed to know him. And from earlier in this thread, it looks like he and Emblem Lord have played together. If they can play on around the same skill level, then it's fine.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
You guys need to study that ending lag. Like.

Right now.

I can't tell if Blue and I are on the same level, since Marth ganks Sonic up the *** completely.
 

cutter

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,316
Location
Getting drilled by AWPers
Sorry Blue, but the cyan text didn't save it ^_^

Uhh Sonic needs disjointed hitboxes combined with priority if he wants to compete against the likes of MK, Snake, G&W, D3, and Marth. Last time I checked, Sonic has very few disjointed hitboxes... and his priority is abysmal on most of his moves. His attributes don't make him a well rounded character because of a ton of things holding him back.
 

Greenstreet

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
2,965
Sonic needs to have better speed and infinite flight and no moves, but when he hits people, they go flying...

wait..
 
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