What is your most hated criticism against your most wanted character?

[Graizen]

"Agumon is a Anime character!"

 

[Cabbagehead]

• "He's irrelevant!!"/"Kids today won't recognize him!"

K. Rool, Little Mac, any of the Retros (b-b-but they don't count!!!), Captain Falcon, Mega Man, either of the Earthbound boys, Dark Samus, Olimar... should I go on?

To play devil's advocate, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, and Olimar were "relevant" during the time of their playability. However, your point still stands, especially as it pertains to Smash Ultimate: August's Smash Direct saw the reveal of Dark Samus and King K. Rool, two popular characters (one arguably far more so than the other) that haven't been seen in their respective franchises in a decade. Obviously, as far as this game goes, fan-favoritism will carry a character far more than mere relevance.

If the recognizability of a character to the current generation was so important, then K. Rool and Simon wouldn't be here.

 

[Perkilator]

I don't see this criticism too often, but when occasionally i see it, it makes me angry:
About Adeleine from the Kirby series: "She has 1 hp, she's too weak"

Aside that in Kirby Star Allies she can defeat the final boss just fine, she has definitely more than just 1 hp in that game.
This argument is super stupid because Mario also has 1 hp (2 with the mushroom); this didn't stop him from being in Smash since Smash 64; I believe the Ice Climbers have 1 hp as well, and maybe some others too.
That other Kirby character who has a lot of supporters, can be defeated in one hit by just being inhaled.

Anyway it's true that she's physically weak, in Kirby Star Allies she has less health than the other characters and she's been referenced as an hard mode by the developers. That's positive IMO, it's something that makes her different than most other characters, like Pichu who damages himself by attacking. To balance her weakness, they should build her moveset around being elusive, in a similar way as Sonic, but using creative tricks instead of pure speed.

We have Wii Fit Trainer, who's just a normal fit fitness trainer.

So Adeleine being weak is hardly an issue for Smash.

Might as well call that argument weak in itself.

I don’t think I can think of any other characters that haven’t already been addressed by others. Any ideas, anyone?

 

[Swaggy-G]

Sora is a disney character!!!
No. He's a square enix character who interacts with disney characters.

Sora is literally owned by Disney though.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Since the dumb "can't jump" has been covered by multiple people already, I'll pick one that applies to my two most wanted at current:

Captain Toad/Bandana Waddle Dee; "They're generic species wearing headgear, they're barely a character!"

Have you seen Yoshi? I love him to bits, but Captain Toad and Bandana Waddle Dee are both far more unique members of their race than he is comparitively.

 

[smashingDoug]

Wait! What? It's 2018, and we still have folks out here thinking Digimon started as an anime? Digimon is

Spoiler: Tamagotchi

View attachment 160049

for boys. If Tamagotchi doesn't count as a game, then I'm not sure how

Spoiler: Mr. Game & Watch

View attachment 160050

is a thing in Smash. I'm not saying I want Agumon in Smash but if someone wants to discredit the character at least do so for a real reason.

It’s the casual fan base in the YouTube comments who says it. Can’t be helped

 

[edsett]

A lot of my most disliked criticisms have already been stated (Bandana Dee/Captain Toad's "Goomba with a Hat", K. Rool's "irrelevance", Bomberman's "boring" moveset) but one which is "Kirby doesn't need anymore reps!" Kirby is a very popular franchise with a plethora of cool characters and I don't understand why some people think Kirby should just have three reps forever. It's been over a decade since Kirby got a newcomer, come on.

 

[jamesster445]

Sora is literally owned by Disney though.

Is true, why else is he not in Dissidia? Square wanted to put him in but Disney said no.

 

[Dixie Kong]

Is true, why else is he not in Dissidia? Square wanted to put him in but Disney said no.

Is that true? I’ve heard that before, and one explanation was that they didn’t want there characters fighting others. But Sora fights others in Kingdom Hearts, right? Why would they say no?

 

[WertQuadNine]

Sora is literally owned by Disney though.

Yes, you are correct. I should have explained that better.

I meant that I don't like how the argument as to why he won't be added is because he's not a Square Enix character. So yeah, that's my bad.

 

[Xenorange]

I've wanted Shadow for years, and I used to get flak for it.
"Nobody wants edgelord the hedgehog"
"****ty character from ****ty game"
"There's never been a good 3D Sonic game, he doesn't deserve to be in"
"Sonic games suck"
"He'd just be a Sonic clone" (yes, yes he would.... AND WILL!!!)
"3rd parties can only have one rep per franchise"
"That terrible franchise doesn't deserve a second rep"

Yeah i've heard a lot of hate. Though this time around, everything's COMING UP SHADOW!!

 

[Iko MattOrr]

A lot of my most disliked criticisms have already been stated (Bandana Dee/Captain Toad's "Goomba with a Hat", K. Rool's "irrelevance", Bomberman's "boring" moveset) but one which is "Kirby doesn't need anymore reps!" Kirby is a very popular franchise with a plethora of cool characters and I don't understand why some people think Kirby should just have three reps forever. It's been over a decade since Kirby got a newcomer, come on.

I agree so much with this!
Honestly, I think that Kirby is the franchise that needs most newcomers of all; it was Donkey Kong and Metroid before, but they got their representation now (DK is still missing Dixie though).
Kirby has tons of very interesting characters, and IMO they should add more than just 1 unique newcomer this time.
A good amount of Dream Friends should become newcomers sooner or later IMO, and Dark Matter too. Characters such as Marx, Adeleine, Daroach, Magolor, Susie and Dark Matter Blade definitely are Smash material, and Dark Metaknight/Galacta Knight are potential echoes too, so there's still a lot, if anything, Kirby is very unrepresented, they only have the equivalent of Mario, Luigi and Bowser so far.

I'd say, they should add at least 2 Kirby newcomers and 1 Kirby echo in this Smash to be fair, and if DLCs are a thing, at least 1 more newcomer too.

 

[Enchess]

Oh I have a lot of good ones to talk about.

Any Fatal Frame Character ever - “They are too realistic and don’t fit Smash” Solid Snake says hi! If he can get away with being a realistic human, what’s bad about seeing a realistic Japanese girl with a camera built for exorcism?

“They have no moveset potential and can’t fight” Again, anyone can have a moveset. Plus these are human girls that pushed spirits off of them whenever they attack them. So they should be capable of physical attacks than just the Camera Obscura.

“Fatal Frame is too violent and scary for Smash” Sure’s let’s ignore Simon's reveal trailer where Luigi is straight up killed by Death and freaking Carmilla still cries tears of blood (albeit purple than red). If Castlevania’s content can still be scary in Smash, what’s bad about a Fatal Frame stage or a protagonist fighting with ghosts? Plus, they CAN be toned down to be more Smash appropriate like the abforementioned Carmilla.

Adding to this:
"We don't need a horror rep"
Smash honors video game history...unless it's horror. Seriously, two trophies are all we have for this entire genre. Most people, even if they don't agree Smash is a celebration of Nintendo, at least acknowledge its a celebration of video games. Why should we exclude an entire genre?

"Leon or Pyramid Head need to be added first"
How did we even get to the point where we "need" a third party rep before the first party equivalent? Why wouldn't Nintendo be a little more generous with the IP they actually stand to make a profit from?

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Adding to this:
"We don't need a horror rep"
Smash honors video game history...unless it's horror. Seriously, two trophies are all we have for this entire genre. Most people, even if they don't agree Smash is a celebration of Nintendo, at least acknowledge its a celebration of video games. Why should we exclude an entire genre?

"Leon or Pyramid Head need to be added first"
How did we even get to the point where we "need" a third party rep before the first party equivalent? Why wouldn't Nintendo be a little more generous with the IP they actually stand to make a profit from?

These two are very good points that I overlooked. Thanks for adding to that.

Smash celebrates all video games, so horror shouldn't be a problem, when we have almost every creepy boss from Castlevania as hazards.

Imagine the Fatal Frame ghosts in the same style, it would fit alot.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

One of the most infuriating arguments against Shadow is that "Tails has to be first since he's the Luigi to Sonic's Mario."

First of all Sonic isn't Mario, second of all, Tails while being big in the 90's has kind of remained more a side character since then.

Shadow's first game happened to be the first Sonic game many Ninty fans unfamilar with the series would play as their first game.

Yeah Tails is defintely a thing, but he's not Shadow in terms of character popularity or someone more ninty inclined will be as used to.

Plus y'know the whole it's easier to make Shadow an Echo than Tails. While Tails and Knuckles in the old days and in Mania do play similar to Sonic, their core strengths wouldn't be reflected in Smash while Shadow as an Echo still could.

 

[Fell God]

To play devil's advocate, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, and Olimar were "relevant" during the time of their playability.

Wh-why are you guys talking about Olimar like his series is dead...

 

[Enchess]

Wh-why are you guys talking about Olimar like his series is dead...

Yeah, doesn't everyone remember Pikmin 4?.....oh...now I'm sad..

It's coming guys, for real (I hope)

 

[Fell God]

Yeah, doesn't everyone remember Pikmin 4?.....oh...now I'm sad..

It's coming guys, for real (I hope)

Better blow me away with this one, Miyamoto. Or...at least just tell us it was canceled...

 

[osby]

"That character made in this century! Obviously they have zero fans and could only be added for soulless promotion!"

 

[Admiral Bobbery]

"We have enough Mario Reps" "His first 2 games were the only good ones and they're old now" >Paper Mario<

 

[Fell God]

"That character made in this century! Obviously they have zero fans and could only be added for soulless promotion!"

That always bothered me with Corrin (whom I don't even play)...people were so busy complaining about the fact that we got a new FE character from a then unreleased game that no one ever considered the fact that they were added because, you know, they had a pretty unique moveset potential? They just looked at the sword and said "oh look, there goes Sakurai adding another generic anime swordsman" and got hyped over game breaker instead...then the rampant hatred for Fates among elitist FE fans only fueled the flames. Oh well, everyone's a hater...

 

[osby]

That always bothered me with Corrin (whom I don't even play)...people were so busy complaining about the fact that we got a new FE character from a then unreleased game that no one ever considered the fact that they were added because, you know, they had a pretty unique moveset potential? They just looked at the sword and said "oh look, there goes Sakurai adding another generic anime swordsman" and got hyped over game breaker instead...then the rampant hatred for Fates among elitist FE fans only fueled the flames. Oh well, everyone's a hater...

Weirdly enough, Bayo also got "only got in because promotion" complaints, simply because she had a recent game.

But agreed, hate against Corrin is weird and most of the time very biased. Like, how is he different than Greninja?

 

[Fell God]

Weirdly enough, Bayo also got "only got in because promotion" complaints, simply because she had a recent game.

But agreed, hate against Corrin is weird and most of the time very biased. Like, how is he different than Greninja?

Smash fans are a fickle bunch, to be sure. Heck, I worship Awakening like it's god's gift to humanity and didn't like Fates nearly as much, but I still don't understand the Fates/Corrin hate. Besides, people were too busy complaining that Greninja wasn't Mewtwo to complain about him being added for promotional reasons, haha. At this point I think Simon is the only newcomer that hasn't had any hate whatsoever, at least from Smash 4 onward. And I guess Mega Man and K. Rool, but they're all retro picks.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

"We have enough Mario Reps" "His first 2 games were the only good ones and they're old now" >Paper Mario<

We can never have too much Mario characters.

And like I said for Jibanyan, might as well cut Sonic because of 06, Forces, Rise of Lyric, Labrinyth, Sonic Chronicles, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic the Hedgehog (GBA).

 

[osby]

Smash fans are a fickle bunch, to be sure. Heck, I worship Awakening like it's god's gift to humanity and didn't like Fates nearly as much, but I still don't understand the Fates/Corrin hate. Besides, people were too busy complaining that Greninja wasn't Mewtwo to complain about him being added for promotional reasons, haha. At this point I think Simon is the only newcomer that hasn't had any hate whatsoever, at least from Smash 4 onward. And I guess Mega Man and K. Rool, but they're all retro picks.

Ultimate newcomers in general created very little salt, not surprising, considering almost all of them caters to old school western fans in one way or other.

 

[Fell God]

Ultimate newcomers in general created very little salt, not surprising, considering almost all of them caters to old school western fans in one way or other.

I think the only real salt for an Ultimate newcomer was for Chrom...a swordfighter...from Fire Emblem...from this century...who is more popular in Japan...huh...good thing I flamed the entire Source Gaming comments section with my smug gloating hahahehe

 

[Admiral Bobbery]

We can never have too much Mario characters.

And like I said for Jibanyan, might as well cut Sonic because of 06, Forces, Rise of Lyric, Labrinyth, Sonic Chronicles, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic the Hedgehog (GBA).

I tend to agree with you. He is the posterboy of Nintendo. And even if everyone agreed his new games were "bad" and his good games are too old I don't think that's a legitimate argument. K Rool as living proof. He hasn't been around in forever I suppose besides Mario Super Sluggers and he got in. Even though my choice is fairly unlikely those arguments just make me uneasy lol.

 

[osby]

I think the only real salt for an Ultimate newcomer was for Chrom...a swordfighter...from Fire Emblem...from this century...who is more popular in Japan...huh...good thing I flamed the entire Sourve Gaming comments section with my smug gloating hahahehe

Chrom is still one of the more popular picks in America, since he's manlier than most of the other FE protags and his game wasn't the last one.

 

[Lukingordex]

Crash Bandicoot:

"It's impossible to make a moveset for him because the only thing he ever does is spin"

"He's a sony character so he can't join"

"It would be out of place to have him in smash because he has story with sony"

"He belongs in playstation all-stars battle Royale, not smash"

"He's not important for gaming history, even Rayman is more of an icon than him"

I'm sure there are more but I don't remember them right now. Those above really pisses me off.

The only argument I actually understand where people are coming from is that he's a western 3rd party character.

 

[Deleted member]

That's a good thread to bring back this:

 

[Deleted member]

Shantae:
Pretty much everything that pertains to how skimpy her clothing is.

 

[Folt]

I agree so much with this!
Honestly, I think that Kirby is the franchise that needs most newcomers of all; it was Donkey Kong and Metroid before, but they got their representation now (DK is still missing Dixie though).
Kirby has tons of very interesting characters, and IMO they should add more than just 1 unique newcomer this time.
A good amount of Dream Friends should become newcomers sooner or later IMO, and Dark Matter too. Characters such as Marx, Adeleine, Daroach, Magolor, Susie and Dark Matter Blade definitely are Smash material, and Dark Metaknight/Galacta Knight are potential echoes too, so there's still a lot, if anything, Kirby is very unrepresented, they only have the equivalent of Mario, Luigi and Bowser so far.

I'd say, they should add at least 2 Kirby newcomers and 1 Kirby echo in this Smash to be fair, and if DLCs are a thing, at least 1 more newcomer too.

Personally, if they add Bandana Dee and Magolor, I'd think Kirby would have a pretty satsifying roster for now.

 

[KingZing]

Ok, so I don't want to be that guy, but 90% of what I read here are legit arguments against a character that undoubtedly reduce their chances. I mean, c'mon, one thing is supporting a character you want and another is just being totally unreasonable. With K. Rool no further, while I was a huge supporter of him, I was aware of all the counterarguments that were made and they had to be taken into account, whether I liked or agreed with them or not. Dismissing them just because isn't going to make a character more likely to appear.

I know this is for fun and to be taken with humour, but thought I could add my two cents.

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

Bandana Dee :
Too generic - Tbh this is the worst excuse i've seen, if that rule apply then same goes for the entire Pokemon rep (besides mewtwo), Yoshi, Mr Game and Watch, Inklings and R.O.B

Kirby does not need 4 reps - Say that to Mario, Pokemon, Legend of Zelda and Fire Emblem and i'm sure that will explain it

Captain Toad :
Too unique - And u people say that sword fighters are generic, sometimes people can be hypocrites
Cannot jump - Obviously but i created a moveset for him and he throws his bag off and jump on it but Sakurai is creative so he can fix anything
He appears in the New Donk City Map - Toon Link ! i found someone u like to have a word with (he cannot talk)
We do not need another gener- OK ENOUGH ENOUGH OF THIS *#^@ I ADDRESSED THAT AND THAT'S THAT

 

[Deleted member]

Here's another one, but I feel "hate" is too strong of a word for it. I just find it dated. Though with Richter confirmed and Shadow possibly on the way, I've seen this argument pop up less often.

"We shouldn't have more than one character from the same third party franchise, it detracts from the whole point of Smash!"

We've already detracted quite a bit, from third party characters happening in general, to third party characters with very little to do with Nintendo, to 2+ characters from the same third party company, and most recently Richter finally opening the floodgates for more than one character from the same third party franchise.

Besides, not once have we seen Sakurai describe this particular Smash installment as a pure Nintendo crossover, but rather a gaming crossover, but even then it still primarily features Nintendo characters. Though if you'd rather Smash be the former, then more power to you.

And yes, I'm saying all this as someone who's been interested in certain characters from the likes of Sonic, Mega Man, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, and Castlevania for some time, even before Richter (who I was grateful to see join the roster) opened the floodgates.

 

[GolisoPower]

Diablo:

“He’s too big.” Ridley’s announcement kills this argument.
“No one really knows the Diablo games.” Actually, Diablo is by far the most popular dungeon crawler in the series, up there with the likes of Etrian Odyssey.
“He might as well be Satan!” We have a playable goddess and two angels in Smash. Your point being?
“He wouldn’t fit the aesthetic!” Snake wasn’t considered such. Castlevania CERTAINLY isn’t considered such. Diablo can fit the aesthetic.

 

[Mgl]

"but the fanbase is trash"

I want Steve in because of the memes but this criticism is just annoying

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Personally, if they add Bandana Dee and Magolor, I'd think Kirby would have a pretty satsifying roster for now.

Not for me...

Both of those characters come from the same game (I know that Bandana Dee technically appeared in Kirby Superstar, but the first major appearance is in Return to Dreamland). Fans of modern Kirby games will be satisfied, ok, but some more old school fans such as me would be disappointed (may be a minority, but it's still a part of the fandom).

The Dark Matter Trilogy is still unrepresented!!! Completely, not a stage, not a trophy. To be more precise, only 2 trophies in Melee actually (Rick and Gooey), that's all.

You would satisfy everyone if you pick 1 character from modern games (and I include Marx in this, since most modern Kirby fan started with Kirby Superstar Ultra and Marx was in it) and 1 character from the Dark Matter trilogy (who I think should be Adeleine & Ribbon, but Dark Matter Blade or Gooey would be fine too).

I personally would go for Marx and "Adeleine & Ribbon", I think it covers the representation of the series much better and those characters have a bigger and more relevant history in the franchise; You can exchange Marx with Magolor, but I tihnk Marx would be a more interesting character and Superstar, despite being already represented to death in Smash, is still the most popular Kirby game (the same applies to Adeleine and Dark Matter Blade, both are equally important IMO and both have made a recent appearance in modern games, it's only a matter of preferences).

That's my ideal representation (it will never happen though and I'll get Bandana Dee instead ).

 

[Fenriraga]

One of the most infuriating arguments against Shadow is that "Tails has to be first since he's the Luigi to Sonic's Mario."

First of all Sonic isn't Mario, second of all, Tails while being big in the 90's has kind of remained more a side character since then.

Shadow's first game happened to be the first Sonic game many Ninty fans unfamilar with the series would play as their first game.

Yeah Tails is defintely a thing, but he's not Shadow in terms of character popularity or someone more ninty inclined will be as used to.

Plus y'know the whole it's easier to make Shadow an Echo than Tails. While Tails and Knuckles in the old days and in Mania do play similar to Sonic, their core strengths wouldn't be reflected in Smash while Shadow as an Echo still could.

I get where you're coming from, and in some ways I agree, but I'm still of the firm belief that the only way Shadow would get in before Tails is if he was an echo. Which seems to be the general consensus.

And the thought that Shadow is more popular than Tails is silly to me. Within the Sonic fandom? Maybe by a small margin. In the general gaming populus? I sincerely doubt that. Sonic is no Mario, for sure, but it is still extremely popular, and Tails is second only to Luigi. Someone who doesn't play video games much is far more likely to know who Tails is before Shadow.

But yeah, Shadow is absolutely a better fit for a Sonic Echo than Tails is. I'm not about to deny that.

 

[Mgl]

I get where you're coming from, and in some ways I agree, but I'm still of the firm belief that the only way Shadow would get in before Tails is if he was an echo. Which seems to be the general consensus.

And the thought that Shadow is more popular than Tails is silly to me. Within the Sonic fandom? Maybe by a small margin. In the general gaming populus? I sincerely doubt that. Sonic is no Mario, for sure, but it is still extremely popular, and Tails is second only to Luigi. Someone who doesn't play video games much is far more likely to know who Tails is before Shadow.

But yeah, Shadow is absolutely a better fit for a Sonic Echo than Tails is. I'm not about to deny that.

I mean if you want to get technical, eggman appeared before tails