What is something you just... don’t get about Super Smash Bros?

[SmashBro99]

Uhh, no, Sakurai wouldn't just make him like Mario, that's not how Sakurai works. I seriously don't get this "Paper Mario would just be another Mario" argument. Have they ever played a Paper Mario game before to be confident enough to make that statement? I don't think so... Sakurai is known for doing research on characters and their games. Paper Mario would be 100% unique.

I love Paper Mario, I played the first 3 then stopped because they seemed like ass, the first two are two of my favorite games period, if he was represented correctly I'd be all for it.

Sakurai clearly doesn't do research on every character tho.

 

[Blackwolf666]

Same here now that you mention it. Like how can that work to begin with if Ganon alone is Ganondorf's final smash?

You know, it can be baffling how people still want a playable Ganon when Demon King Ganon (replacing Beast Ganon) is already in the game as Ganondorf's Final Smash.

As someone that wants Ganon in... the Final smash (Demon King, from OoT,) Ganon isn't the same Ganon I'm wanting to see so that doesn't matter much to me. The one I'm wanting is the blue pig Ganon from the classic Zelda games and link between worlds. Sure, according to the Zelda timeline they are technically the same with no reincarnation mumbo jumbo but with a few extra hundred years thrown in there. I'll give you that. However their build, design, weapons, fighting style and so on are so different that if you put the two side by side you'd think they were different at least imo. Besides we have 3 Links, 2 Zeldas and 2 Samus Arans; what's another Ganon going to hurt especially when he can bring something new to the table.

Spoiler

Spoiler

I hope this clears up why I still want Ganon even though there is a form of him in the game and if not.... got nothing further to add to this.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I honestly don't think Ganon will happen anyways. I'd give Skull Kid or Impa better chances as a new TLoZ rep.

 

[Blackwolf666]

I honestly don't think Ganon will happen anyways. I'd give Skull Kid or Impa better chances as a new TLoZ rep.

fair enough

 

[Crystanium]

Or they could just make Zero Suit Samus and Samus back as one character.

If by that you mean dropping the armor, no thanks. That still wouldn't make Samus and ZSS one character. Think of Pokémon Trainer. Although Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are under one character, they're still their own character and can be judged in terms of a tier.

That’s interesting, we’re very different, you and I, concerning views on roster size. So, I’m curious then, were you dissatisfied with the everyone is here approach or have you come to accept it? I’m not trying to start an argument or anything I’m just genuinely curious

I'm not dissatisfied with everyone being here. I welcome the inclusion of the newcomers as well. I think the main reason I'm not bothered with everyone being here is because although SSBU isn't a port, it and SSB4 seem to have a lot of similarities.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

If by that you mean dropping the armor, no thanks. That still wouldn't make Samus and ZSS one character. Think of Pokémon Trainer. Although Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are under one character, they're still their own character and can be judged in terms of a tier.



I'm not dissatisfied with everyone being here. I welcome the inclusion of the newcomers as well. I think the main reason I'm not bothered with everyone being here is because although SSBU isn't a port, it and SSB4 seem to have a lot of similarities.

Interesting, good that you aren’t bashing the roster size like some people do just because of balance issues

 

[Crystanium]

Interesting, good that you aren’t bashing the roster size like some people do just because of balance issues

I won't bash, but I do think characters need to be balanced before adding more characters. That's why I prefer a smaller roster size. Like I said, even 40 would be fine before DLC if that was continued. If it's true that Sakurai is going to cut the roster by a third in the sixth installment, then I'm interested in how that will look, but I'm also concerned that we'll still have too many Mario characters.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

I won't bash, but I do think characters need to be balanced before adding more characters. That's why I prefer a smaller roster size. Like I said, even 40 would be fine before DLC if that was continued. If it's true that Sakurai is going to cut the roster by a third in the sixth installment, then I'm interested in how that will look, but I'm also concerned that we'll still have too many Mario characters.

Just curious, why is it that you think we have too many Mario characters?

 

[Crystanium]

Just curious, why is it that you think we have too many Mario characters?

Because we do. Even if you exclude Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong & Co., that's eight characters. F-Zero has never had another rep besides Captain Falcon. I think other series' could be given a bit more representation.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Because we do. Even if you exclude Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong & Co., that's eight characters. F-Zero has never had another rep besides Captain Falcon. I think other series' could be given a bit more representation.

Interesting. I personally believe 8 is perfectly reasonable considering it's the biggest gaming franchise on the planet, in fact I'd probably even add a few more, but it's intriguing to hear different viewpoints

 

[Crystanium]

Interesting. I personally believe 8 is perfectly reasonable considering it's the biggest gaming franchise on the planet, in fact I'd probably even add a few more, but it's intriguing to hear different viewpoints

I'm not sure what approach Sakurai is taking these days, but it originally seemed to be giving other unknown or obscure franchises some light for others to get to know about and perhaps enjoy. At most, I'd be fine with Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser for Mario characters. Otherwise, I'm fine with at least three characters per series. That's kind of the issue. Some like to see their favorite character in a popular fighting game, while others couldn't care less. And it's unfortunate for Sakurai because he can't please everybody. I suppose this is partially why I'm also fine with SSBU. He and his team has spoiled us and even provided new things we didn't even ask for. Seeing Sakurai smile in front of the crowd and the crowd cheering his name at the 2018 invitational was pretty warming.

 

[Tollhouse]

I won't bash, but I do think characters need to be balanced before adding more characters. That's why I prefer a smaller roster size. Like I said, even 40 would be fine before DLC if that was continued. If it's true that Sakurai is going to cut the roster by a third in the sixth installment, then I'm interested in how that will look, but I'm also concerned that we'll still have too many Mario characters.

I'm pretty confident balancing won't be an issue in Ultimate. I expect there will be another character that sticks out like Bayo, Meta Knight, and Fox in previous titles. There will always be that one busted character. Despite having a much biggest roster AND a 3DS version made at the same time, Smash 4 ended up having more competitively viable characters than brawl and melee. So I don't think increasing the roster size has ever been detrimental to the game balancing so far in the franchise. Assuming Sakurai hasn't been working on other content we don't need like Ultimate Smash Tour, a list of Nintendo games, or Bunny Hood Classic mode, or whatever that took away vs mode development time, I think Ultimate's balancing will be fine.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I respect most of Sakurai's decisions, but his reasoning for cutting Adventure Mode from Smash 4 was just baffling to hear and still has me scratching my head to this day. People uploading the cutscenes online... really?? Honestly, I refuse to believe that was the actual reason he had for getting rid of it, since it just sounds too ridiculous to be anything but a coverup.

 

[soviet prince]

people will want more characters over perfect balance, and I kind of agree I like the crazyness that this game can get sometimes, Even if I am in last place I am still having fun where in a lot of the competitive fighters I mostly set there and watch them combo me to death without getting any input at all.

 

[Idon]

I respect most of Sakurai's decisions, but his reasoning for cutting Adventure Mode from Smash 4 was just baffling to hear and still has me scratching my head to this day. People uploading the cutscenes online... really?? Honestly, I refuse to believe that was the actual reason he had for getting rid of it, since it just sounds too ridiculous to be anything but a coverup.

It definitely isn't.
The truth is a story mode like that is A HUGE RESOURCE SINK and honestly, I think Sakurai wanted to cut that out regardless of what actually happened and just wanted a convenient excuse.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Developing a Subspace Emissary based adventure takes a lot of development time, however. And the amount of time needed to make it could've easily been used to make sure that all the fighters are balanced properly.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Indeed. However, Brawl's balancing was thrown out of the window when the game couldn't be patched, so the product was sold as-is. Hell, chances are Sakurai would of removed tripping in that game.

Ultimate has been hinting of a Adventure Mode though.

 

[SmashBro99]

Because we do. Even if you exclude Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong & Co., that's eight characters. F-Zero has never had another rep besides Captain Falcon. I think other series' could be given a bit more representation.

The biggest series has the most reps, a dead series has one very cool rep, I don't see a problem haha

Captain Falcon is more of a smash bros character than an F Zero one tbh

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Indeed. However, Brawl's balancing was thrown out of the window when the game couldn't be patched, so the product was sold as-is. Hell, chances are Sakurai would of removed tripping in that game.

Another nail in the coffin was the fact that Wii titles lacked the ability to receive software updates.

As such, Brawl ended up being the only game in the Super Smash Bros. series to have a fighter who has an advantage against everyone (Meta Knight), AND a fighter who has a disadvantage against everyone (Ganondorf).

And when you look at Melee's match-up chart, even the worst fighter in the game (arguably Bowser, due to having the fewest even match-ups, and no positive match-ups) has at least one even match-up. Likewise, the best fighters (Fox and Falco, due to having no negative match-ups) had a couple evenly matched match-ups.

It's probably safe to say that Brawl's balancing was handled very poorly, and if more time was spent on balancing the fighters, we probably would not have ended up with a fighter who's banned from certain competitions, and a fighter who fares even worse than Melee Bowser.

 

[Crystanium]

The biggest series has the most reps, a dead series has one very cool rep, I don't see a problem haha

Captain Falcon is more of a smash bros character than an F Zero one tbh

All right. Why not introduce Space Pirate (a recurring villain with a conglomerate moveset of space pirates), Rundas, Ghor, Gandrayda, Sylux, Omega Metroid, Anthony Higgs, SA-X? Add as many Metroid characters as possible. Even introduce the other hunters from Metroid Prime Hunters. Let's surpass the Mario franchise.

 

[WolfCypher]

Developing a Subspace Emissary based adventure takes a lot of development time, however. And the amount of time needed to make it could've easily been used to make sure that all the fighters are balanced properly.

I was going to say, the time needed for any given mode could be used to make sure characters are balanced better during development, but that seems like a non-issue when you can just create post-release patches that balance characters.

The biggest series has the most reps, a dead series has one very cool rep, I don't see a problem haha

Captain Falcon is more of a smash bros character than an F Zero one tbh

Here's my very unpopular opinion...the Blue Falcon is more the face of F-Zero than Captain Falcon.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I was going to say, the time needed for any given mode could be used to make sure characters are balanced better during development, but that seems like a non-issue when you can just create post-release patches that balance characters.

That's pretty much a pro that the Wii U and Switch have. You didn't get anything like that for the Wii, which is why Brawl Meta Knight ended up being unfair to the point where some competitive tourneys banned him.

 

[SmashBro99]

All right. Why not introduce Space Pirate (a recurring villain with a conglomerate moveset of space pirates), Rundas, Ghor, Gandrayda, Sylux, Omega Metroid, Anthony Higgs, SA-X? Add as many Metroid characters as possible. Even introduce the other hunters from Metroid Prime Hunters. Let's surpass the Mario franchise.

Are you saying Metroid is as big or bigger than Mario?

I know Metroid fans are very passionate but, that's going a little too far there.

 

[soviet prince]

All right. Why not introduce Space Pirate (a recurring villain with a conglomerate moveset of space pirates), Rundas, Ghor, Gandrayda, Sylux, Omega Metroid, Anthony Higgs, SA-X? Add as many Metroid characters as possible. Even introduce the other hunters from Metroid Prime Hunters. Let's surpass the Mario franchise.

now thats just being ridicules, bigger the franchise the bigger there rep is, if ppl have to choose between

1. characters that are popular and recognizable

2. or a roster with more character most wont even know

the answer would be overwhelming be 1

 

[Rayleigh]

As seems to be the current topic?

The concept of 'Representation' that people use when talking about franchises and the inclusion fighters. "This franchise has too much/too little representation!" is an all too common way of thinking. Its more fun to think about the notion of 'what would be a fun way to play' and see if there's a character that'd fit that, or start the other way around and go 'I like this character, how would they fit?'. Popularity is naturally important as well, but when your concept of worth comes down to 'there should be more/less of this because representation'...? I'm kinda left scratching my head: balancing should be left to making sure characters play well, not checking boxes off of some sort of list.

It's sorta the reason why I dislike Dark Pit. Not by virtue of being 'more representation', but that they aren't really that fun for me...or particularly different from their base template in comparison to other characters in a similar state. It's also the reason why I sorta shrug at the concept of another pikmin character...I mean- what can you really do that's fun and fitting for that franchise that simply isn't shown in Olimar?

 

[Crystanium]

Are you saying Metroid is as big or bigger than Mario?

I know Metroid fans are very passionate but, that's going a little too far there.

Ah, so you're just move the goalpost. You're not even being charitable because you know no series by Nintendo is as popular as Mario. Well, some of us don't feel like playing another Mario game. And to top it off, **** Shigeru Miyamoto.

now thats just being ridicules, bigger the franchise the bigger there rep is, if ppl have to choose between

1. characters that are popular and recognizable

2. or a roster with more character most wont even know

the answer would be overwhelming be 1

Everyone starts somewhere. But this whole thing was ****ed from the beginning. Completely one-sided.

 

[Mamboo07]

Yoshi keeps getting the short end of the stick with him being ignored a lot and here's why:
-No second rep (Still waiting for Poochy as a DLC Fighter)
-Not even in the World of Light opening cutscene
-Wasn't playable in the E3 demo
-Replaced by Pit in Smash 4 announcement trailer
-No Assist Trophies
-Very few songs
-No items from his series
Sakurai doesn't care about him
I would just cut him out of the roster!

 

[Yoshi_smash]

One thing I don't get about the Super Smash Bros series is that there are so many Fire Emblem fighters. Personally, I feel that there are too many Fire Emblem fighters (characters). I guess Sakurai likes Fire Emblem for some reason.

Another thing I don't get is why there are so many clones / echo fighters. Examples include Dark Samus, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Richter, Ken, Dark Pit, Chrom, Daisy, Lucina, Toon Link, and Young Link. Does Smash really need three standalone Links? For some reason, all of these characters are standalone, while characters such as the Koopalings and Alph are alternates. Personally, I would've rather seen characters such as Dark Pit be alternates, and the Koopalings be standalones.

Edit: Zero Suit Samus and Sheik (though not being clones / echo fighters) could be grouped with the clones / echo fighters because they were considered part of their main character in the past (as in how Zelda could turn into Sheik in Melee and Brawl, and how Samus could turn into Zero Suit Samus in Brawl).

 

[MacSmitty]

Examples include Zero Suit Samus, Dark Samus, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Richter, Ken, Dark Pit, Chrom, Sheik, Daisy, Lucina, Toon Link, and Young Link.

Those bolded characters are not clones or Echo Fighters. And I'd argue that Toon Link is way different than regular Link to be a regular clone.

 

[UserKev]

What I don't get about Sakurai's decisions regarding Smash, why were definitive title slogans for Smash like Melee and Brawl neglected? Why are constant remix soundtracks given priority over original battle themes? Why isn't there a special priority for the "One off" otherwise lovable groundbreaking character?

 

[Perkilator]

That Classic Mode in Ultimate only raises in difficulty when you finish quickly and don't take much damage. That ruins the otherwise neat concept as far as I'm concerned.

If being obscure outside of Japan is a factor for a character to NOT become playable in Smash, what about Marth and Roy?
Don't get me wrong; I realize Fire Emblem was popular in Japan at that time. But they added Roy, which was for advertising his game that never saw release in the West. They were even going to be cut in the Western version of Melee before they were kept due to popular demand I believe. And it was a great move because it opened Fire Emblem to the West and is now one of Nintendo's successful series worldwide.
What I don't get is this; Marth and Roy proved that Japan only characters can work, and could boost their popularity worldwide. Yet, why is Sakurai still allergic to adding Japan only obscure characters? Especially in this time and age where a quick internet search will help you learn about all those obscure Japan only series? It's not 2001 anymore. The fact that he didn't add Takamaru in Smash 4 due to obscurity, yet he tested the water with Marth and Roy, screams hypocrisy to me.

You're right. Heck, he even added freaking Lucas of all people. Characters like Ayumi Tachibana, Takamaru, and DeMille from Tomato Adventure were perfectly okay to be legit fighters.

 

[Deleted member]

Why isnt there normal conditions to getting a perfect score in classic mode instead of winning the battle without taking damage.

Why does the smash team takes step backs from their previous games. For example in ultimate you need to hold the b button to exit the menu when you could do it just fine in smash 4.

Why isnt smash run in ultimate.

Why isnt there an simple adventure mode like melee's where you just fight through different worlds?

Why isnt wol just event matches.

Why is there unnecessary rng for certain things like spirit battles. Hilariously theres rng in the shops for rng items lol.

Why isnt there a boss rush mode.

Who thought that cruel smash was a good idea?

Who thought that master hand and crazy hand duo is balanced?

Why is all star mode bogged down?

 

[OnyanRings]

How do you do the opposite of "the big suck" ?

 

[MaddaD]

Another thing I don't get is why there are so many clones / echo fighters. Examples include Zero Suit Samus, Dark Samus, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Richter, Ken, Dark Pit, Chrom, Sheik, Daisy, Lucina, Toon Link, and Young Link.

Edit: I grouped Zero Suit Samus and Sheik with the clones / echo fighters because they were considered part of their main character in the past (as in how Zelda could turn into Sheik in Melee and Brawl, and how Samus could turn into Zero Suit Samus in Brawl).

ZSS and Shiek were never echo fighters or clones though. Their playstyles and weight are completely different than who they used to be tied to.

Personally, I would've rather seen characters such as Dark Pit be alternates, and the Koopalings be standalones.

Personally, I feel that there are too many Fire Emblem fighters (characters). I guess Sakurai likes Fire Emblem for some reason.

Also that delicious irony.

 

[Veca Gorebyss]

◇


1 | smashing with a guys brother is never weird.

2 | "ermf. didnt know what to do. thought itd look better with '2'."


◇

 

[Oracle Link]

Sakurai's statements about 'keeping characters representative of themselves' and then taking one look at some of the Mario series:

: Happy go lucky joyful individual outside of Smash even when he's fighting his arch nemesis. In Smash he's seeing the red mist at ALL TIMES.
: Pure passive Princess who is friends to all. In Smash up until Ultimate she's forcefully using her subjects as meatshields and sexually using her hips and ass to attack.
: Scaredy cat with bad luck that's played for laughs. In Smash he's an absolute weirdo who can defy the laws of physics by shooting himself as a missle, that weird as **** banana plank taunt that was his Sm4sh render(ruining his amiibo forever) and had the Negative Zone as a Final Smash in Brawl as if he's part of an occult dark arts group.
: Mother to the Lumas, protector and carer. In Smash she seems to control them to fight her enemies for her whilst keeping her distance.
: See Mario but in a doctors coat.
: Depending on the Smash game depends on how animalistic he is. Bowser's capable of thought in his own series whilst here he's sometimes just a wild savage animal.

Like, that's not very accurate to the character at all.

And then there's the old comments about being too peaceful and now we even have who is a pacifist(like Peach supposedly is) now picking up a death scythe to murder the villain's gallery of Nintendo.

And then we have who was deemed for ages to not be suitable for playable because of size,
who until recently arguably had little to do with his Zelda incarnation despite what people will defend("Oh, he represents power because he punches which is considered brutal so yeah very accurate")
who doesn't actually play like in Awakening despite cosplaying as him in it. No, her playing like Marth isn't simply justified because she disguised herself as him once. That's reaching.
who's 'Rest' move is a OHKO that doesn't even mildly heal her.
who seems to have swapped personalities with Mario. Going from 'GONNA COMMIT GENOCIDE' to cheerfully stealing his friend's slogans and erasing Reyn from Smash players memory.

I'm sure theres more as well, but those are the most glaring examples of Sakurai's 'gotta stay faithful to the source material' being utter bull**** to me.

Let Me Continue:
Sweet Borb as Kirby Fans Call him hes Honorable, Sympathetic, a Good Guy and Grunts In Smash hes a Edgelord representeded as the kirby antagonist heck even Dedede is eviler than him in the Kirby Series and uses his anime Voice actor for some reason!
Is a Depressed but really Brave Kid in Smash hes either a scaredy Cat or Far to Cheerful also his Spirit is from his Pre Timeskip Version for some reason!

 

[Aligo]

Why they don't just make a 'custom fire emblem character' that you can swap out the head of so you can use any character you want. Give like a choice of three weapons and some specials and hey presto, you can rep all of fire emblem in a single slot.

"Oh that would look awful!" You say? Well that is because it is accurate to the home games, because they do the exact same thing there.

 

[volbound1700]

Are we talking about series or just Ultimate? Here are my odd ball thoughts about Ultimate:

1. Why World of Light is so random and bland instead of having series centric areas that would be more interesting? (i.e. Mushroom Kingdom area, Hyrule area, DK Island area, etc.). I feel like the IP in Single Player hasn't been used very well since possibly even Melee which got it right in Adventure mode by focusing on the series (although that Adventure mode was rushed and short, I always thought it was the right direction thematically)

2. Why Sakurai works so hard on the project? He totally wears himself out but I get the vibe it is his personality and not Nintendo or others putting the pressure on him. I think he is a perfectionist and is probably difficult to work with to a degree. The guy needs to chill for his own health.

3. Rayman - This one is weird and I think it is probably just as much Ubisoft as Nintendo. With Rayman hinted at in both games, the focus on Ubisoft-Nintendo collabs with the Rabbids, etc. I would have thought Rayman would have been a lock as a character appearing in Ultimate. We didn't even get a costume.

4. Where does Smash go from here? I think this is the biggest question. The sheer amount of IP in Ultimate will be hard to replicate. I think the series can improve on Single Player content but it is going to be very hard to match all the content in Ultimate for the standard Smash modes.

 

[Perkilator]

Even as someone who doesn't care as much about representation, I will admit there are some glaring omissions in non-fighter areas, like songs and Spirits.

 

[volbound1700]

Even as someone who doesn't care as much about representation, I will admit there are some glaring omissions in non-fighter areas, like songs and Spirits.

True but some of that may not be Sakurai and the team. I sometimes wonder as well if the Smash team waits until people come to them versus the opposite.