What is holding you guys back?

[LanceStern]

It looks like Marth literally has everything:

+ Great close quarters fighting
+ Decent Recovery
+ Good KO potential
+ Amazing ledge guarding/traps
+ Disgustingly good juggling and pressure
+ Blazing quick move that combos (DB) and one that breaks out of everything w/invincibility frames (DS)
+ Great range and priority
+ Solid aerial and ground mobility/attacks

You have quite possibly the BEST matchup ratio out of every character except Metaknight and yet except for a small select few every now and then, Marth hasn't lived up to his potential. Two questions:

1. What keeps Marth back from tearing up the entire list of characters (besides MK) like he ought to?

2. What keeps YOU PERSONALLY from using Marth to the best and tearing up your respective region? Lack of Tech skill? Mindgames? fundamentals? Nerves?

I don't know I was sitting and thinking of how great a character he is and why he's not taking more titles and filling up more of Top 10 results. This topic is a result of that.

 

[Kuraudo]

I can't say for sure since I'm not a Marth player, but maybe it's a matter of despite all of those perks, consistent execution and perfection of Marth like this is difficult.

That damn good on paper, maybe?

 

[toki]

Snake is lol DDD is lulz MK is

I like Marth

 

[Lord Chair]

The reason American Marths don't place is because they suck, choke and try stupid stuff that doesn't work. They also always seem to be stuck in the same metagame, not really adapting to their opponents adaption. Why are people still muscle reflexing nair > fsmash expecting their opponent to grab? That stuff is dated 2009.

Marth is a fine character, his American representation is just sub-par compared to other characters' representation.

edit:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Could say a lot about it but I'm keeping my mouth shut about Marth. Let people think what they want...

 

[dskank]

marth isnt that difficult.. i think people just dont like to play him as much as they would like other chars, he isnt very fun imo; y pick up math to win when u could pick up mk, same thing only better..

 

[Steel_Samurai]

Your strengths are slightly exaggerated imo
- While Marth likes to fight up close, and he is good at it, he is bad at point blank(grab/jab) range. His favorable distance is kind of tight spacing wise.
-His recovery is decent, yeah, but the match up it hurts him worst in is already his hardest (to be fair, this is the main reason the match up is decently disadvantaged imo)
-Most other top tiers have moves that come out faster than his db

I do agree though that Marth is a crazy good character, but with mk being the most common tournament character, it hurts Marth a lot. Mike does great things with Marth, and one of the biggest reasons why is because he is the best Marth at the mk match

 

[etecoon]

+ Great close quarters fighting

no.

+ Decent Recovery

it's alright but leaves zero margin for error

+ Good KO potential

a lot of ways to kill but all are highly circumstancial and most require very high precision

+ Blazing quick move that combos (DB) and one that breaks out of everything w/invincibility frames (DS)

DS is high risk high reward. it can do a lot for you but you only need to mess it up once and you're screwed

You have quite possibly the BEST matchup ratio out of every character except Metaknight

diddy and IC's at least are better IMO, others are better conditionally, like falco is worse if you actually take his bad MU's into account but few people play them at a high level

1. What keeps Marth back from tearing up the entire list of characters (besides MK) like he ought to?

he has a lot of disadvantaged or evenish MU's, he also requires an extremely high level of focus that is difficult to maintain for an entire tournament

2. What keeps YOU PERSONALLY from using Marth to the best and tearing up your respective region? Lack of Tech skill? Mindgames? fundamentals? Nerves?

I main meta knight, while I do whip marth out for certain MU's or people in tournament, he's obviously not my best character and not my plan A

 

[Player-3]

The reason American Marths don't place is because they suck, choke and try stupid stuff that doesn't work. They also always seem to be stuck in the same metagame, not really adapting to their opponents adaption. Why are people still muscle reflexing nair > fsmash expecting their opponent to grab? That stuff is dated 2009.

Marth is a fine character, his American representation is just sub-par compared to other characters' representation.

edit:

what american marths are nair fsmashing

or are you trolling lol


the reason american marths don't place is because there aren't many at all besides mike... havok uses other chars most of the time, chaz still does good in FL, steels in the MW.....thats pretty much it.... all the marths out there have mostly started using other chars lmao
almo is using pit or something,

and i haven't been to a tourny in like... 4 months <_< or i'd be bringing in top 5 results consistently lol

roy r is still tearing it up though i think

 

[clowsui]

hey man marth brought me to my first top 16

but i only use him on cps

 

[Player-3]

oh i thought you only played falco now

 

[Lord Chair]

How can you not realize how often Haze goes for the nair > fsmash lol. Works against everyone until he plays someone who's actually sober.

 

[Player-3]

because i don't watch vids of other marths lol


except ramin thats why i used his tag (Mr. P) yesterday and got 2nd at a tourny :D


should have beat p1 in gfs but i choked on frigate and died last stock when he was at 150 and i was at like.... 120 lol

i used mk for the whole time though.... except once where p1 tried to troll me by going ddd vs my marth and i almost jv 3d him lol

 

[makoforce]

^ you made the point worse by saying ramin cause he's not american lol.

 

[Player-3]

what point was i making lol

i was just saying i didn't watch any marth vids except ramin sometimes because its fun to watch his pcing

 

[Mr-R]

man when u choose that tag again next time u better win!!!
and yeah mike gets 90 % of his kills with ff spaced nair on shield> fmsmash cause everyone thinks they can grab that **** haha

 

[EpixAura]

Most Marths sell their souls to MK when they reach the competitive level, and the ones who are trying to reach the that level use Nair->Fsmash because that's what they've seen others do. Since they aren't "pro-level" they don't fight others who are "pro-level," so these opponents aren't good at expecting it, it works. When the Marth goes to a tournament, however, he finds the technique not quite as effective as he likes it to be. Thus he sells out and goes MK.
Of course, I'm new here, so my opinion doesn't matter and - OMG MR. R! U R SO AWESOME!!!!1111!

 

[Player-3]

sorry ramin i would have won but we only played on sv once!!!

 

[link2702]

probably the same reason that pit dropped disgustingly low.


no ones really repping him, the few that are, probably aren't that good except for those select few.



(note; not saying pit is better then marth, not by a long shot, but he's definalty not at all as bad as he's placed on the tier list now, its just that the pit mains are all waaaaay behind in the metagame, most of em are wifi only or "retired", show up to offline tournaments once in a blue moon....or just flat out suck....i've seen folks who don't even MAIN pit, play him, and do better then, and know how to use him better then, the folks who DO main pit....now what does that tell you?)

 

[Mr-R]

sorry ramin i would have won but we only played on sv once!!!

ohhh u should move here since thats the only stage we play on LOL.
orion was like DUDE WHY DO U KEEP COUNTER PICKING SV AGAINST ME EVEN THOUGH U LOST ON IT, I DONT GET YOU GUYS


welcome to the boards aura

 

[pulse131]

by the way i see it the bests marths practically own their region.
i know zex does for mine.
my excuse is i dont go to tournies o.o

 

[Inova~]

the time when brawl is more about presicion and timing meaning less camping/planking which i think it will be, MARTH WILL BE THERE

 

[Shaya]

FF tipper neutral air on shield to fsmash is ****ing legit, scrubs (and has been for like a year and a half-2 years)

Seriously, it is.

Cheese is mad salty because Mr.R gimmicks don't work in America, yet American gimmicks **** EVERYWHERE (hurrrrr).

But honestly, it is less of a gimmick and more of a trap.
Doing it 100% of the time isn't a smart idea, but if you ever ask m2k about these types of things he'll tell you they're absolute ****.

And if you play against m2k and get gayed by "something to instant dsmash" which SHOULDN'T WORK (HURRRRRRRRRRRR) then you're obviously bad and that's why all American Marths (nor any other player of any other character) are not going anywhere ever. Get on m2k's level or main diddy kong.

You know what m2k says about something to instant dsmash? (There's like 6 different somethings, mind you)
"It's 50% chance it will work, and less of a chance I'll get punished for it, OF COURSE I'LL USE IT"

 

[Mr-R]

I never said it wasn't good xD
sometimes I just find it funny how OFTEN it works

 

[Shaya]

the reason it works is is because

-4 on shield.
+3 if they shield drop.
they only have 6/7 frames to try and beat a long ranged move.

even if they remain shielded, tipper fsmash on shield is hard to punish due to the shield push.

 

[Mr-R]

i know it's pretty much unpunishable but that's not what i meant,
what i mean is that they try to shieldgrab it or punish it in some retarted way and then get f smash tippered

 

[Shaya]

that's the beauty of it.

hohoho

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lance you're right, the main reason is because of the way people tend to play Marth here in the U.S.

Mike is definitely on the right track in terms of how Marth is supposed to be played. I myself am heading down that same path and it is working wonders for me so far.
This should be somewhat of a HUGE testament to how affective that playstyle is considering anyone reading this who has seen the way that I played prior to doing so.

I've been working on this playstyle ever since the last day of MLG DC and I'm getting better and better at using it the more time goes by. It's like I'm constantly learning new things now. Virdian City 9 will be the next big tournament I go to followed by Pound 5 so look out for those

 

[etecoon]

by the way i see it the bests marths practically own their region.
i know zex does for mine.
my excuse is i dont go to tournies o.o

the best marth is ranked fifth in his region, mid tier character yo

but in all seriousness aside from zex(I thought he used MK now?) who dominates their region with marth?

Lance you're right, the main reason is because of the way people tend to play Marth here in the U.S.

Mike is definitely on the right track in terms of how Marth is supposed to be played. I myself am heading down that same path and it is working wonders for me so far.
This should be somewhat of a HUGE testament to how affective that playstyle is considering anyone reading this who has seen the way that I played prior to doing so.

I've been working on this playstyle ever since the last day of MLG DC and I'm getting better and better at using it the more time goes by. It's like I'm constantly learning new things now. Virdian City 9 will be the next big tournament I go to followed by Pound 5 so look out for those

I should probably watch some more vids of him but I'm curious what you mean by this specifically? all I've really noticed about him is that he's patient and makes really good reads and mindgames, but as I said, I should probably watch a lot more videos

 

[Lord Chair]

Trying to shieldgrab something that is not shieldgrabbable makes you inexperienced at a matchup.

No excuses. Play the MU more and find out what works and what doesn't. Something being good doesn't mean you aren't a tard if you don't handle it the right way.

 

[Player-3]

the best marth is ranked fifth in his region, mid tier character yo

but in all seriousness aside from zex(I thought he used MK now?) who dominates their region with marth?

ramin


trollface.jpg

 

[Mr-R]

and also leon if it weren't for glutonny

 

[Saki-]

I've reached a wall. Can't get over this wall until I take the time to break habits and learn more about Marth in general.

 

[Steel_Samurai]

Blocked nair to Fsmash does work way more than it should, haha. I feel no shame saying that I utilize it.

ff fair to db is better though, imo, because if you focus, you can confirm whether or not they took the bait instead of just throwing it out

 

[xxmoosexx]

Okay---

1. Whoever said Marth is easy to use is ****ing ********. ( Im assuming this is high end competitive play)

2. As said in another thread, I forget who made it(please post if you remember, im too lazy to go look his name up), MARTH HAS LITTLE TO NO ERROR MARGIN.

3. He wears a tiara you forgot that as a plus.

4. His perfect self and perfect tiara and perfect blade require a perfect player to play him to push him to his utmost perfectness.


Get what im saying?

Oh and MK has everything we have...but better recovery, lag, moves, combos, kill moves, range, and he has metal boots.

Let me ask you this. Why would someone choose to play a character who requires NO ERRORS when you can use someone who has everything better and has the BIGGEST ERROR MARGIN in the game, IMO?

Herpa Derpa. Get on boaarrd the Marth isn't all that great train!

 

[Shaya]

Trying to shieldgrab something that is not shieldgrabbable makes you inexperienced at a matchup.

No excuses. Play the MU more and find out what works and what doesn't. Something being good doesn't mean you aren't a tard if you don't handle it the right way.

Well, you can hit someones shield with a non tipper neutral air and fall back a nice enough distance to actually set up for a tipper hit... you know?

It's not that hard to bait shield grabs with such tight spacing
Marth also has ff aerial to dolphin slash.

What ****s up Marth the most? getting grabbed.
Of course his whole paradigm involves managing both his own and his opponent's grab game. Grabs are just about the only thing that can consistently get past the frame traps Marth naturally has. Saying someone's a tard/play the MU more is silly.

Someone I play(ed) the match up against is fully aware of neutral air to fsmash... no he doesn't get hit by it often, but he has to be prepared for it, and under any pressure it's easy to **** up. Remember that the time frame for all of this to occur is about 15 frames. When we were in the states, he was aware of it as well, but playing against better players (i.e. Mike) he got hit by it a lot... FULLY AWARE of it by playing against me, it still worked on him because Mike is a better player and can manage that pressure better.

 

[etecoon]

ramin


trollface.jpg

I know he's good but I wasn't really talking europe, different metagame

Get what im saying?

Oh and MK has everything we have...but better recovery, lag, moves, combos, kill moves, range, and he has metal boots.

Let me ask you this. Why would someone choose to play a character who requires NO ERRORS when you can use someone who has everything better and has the BIGGEST ERROR MARGIN in the game, IMO?

Herpa Derpa. Get on boaarrd the Marth isn't all that great train!

MK is not strictly a better version of marth, marth can do some things better than MK can and some of MK's strengths are nothing like marth at all

I also question MK having the biggest error margin, I don't think bad/average MK's are very threatening at all, he's just amazing when played at a high level(not making errors)

and maybe just me but I've found I have a higher error margin with snake, I mostly do well with MK if I jump on top early and stay with it the whole time, my snake has shown a much better ability to come back from playing poorly early in a game(but MK is easier to do well with from the start)

 

[LanceStern]

MK Error margin benefits -

1) You can mess up on a little recovery, because you have 5 jumps and different specials that move you high and close to the ledge., and make you pretty much invincible.

2) You can follow offstage and attempt to gimp, because you have option 1

3) You can come back from a stock deficit because of option 2, which is because of option 1

4) You can afford to be aggressive and do crazy things to take the early lead because of option 3

5) You can get the lead and time them out if you want to


Hastily thrown together and maybe oversimplified, but I think that is the gist

 

[Player-3]

mk error margins:

 

[MintyFlesh]

player 3 i love you