Divinokage
Smash Legend
I have played him today, I like him a lot actually.
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What are your opinions on Project M?
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
D
Deleted member
Guest
but the thing is falcon doesnt get destroyed in melee for his recovery if you are good exception being shiek
(i don't know enough about project M as a whole maybe helping his recovery is justifiable)
`dazrin
Smash Champion
His recovery is already better considering that side-b grabs ledges.
Wake
Smash Master
D
Deleted member
Guest
thats the point i dont like it
a sweet recovery to make it back with falcon is SICK, if you **** up you DIE or land on the stage for 08318013081038 seconds
to make falcons recovery automatically sweetspot easily you take away one of the biggest skill components of falcon that was in melee. Every noob falcon in the world dies like nothing, good ones trick their opponent
im sure everybody else loves falcons recovery being better, i don't. To me its brawlification masked as the "sequel to melee." Melee is supposed to be a ****ING HARD GAME AND U JUST TOOK A HORRID FLAW OF FALCON AND TURNED IT INTO NOTHING
Falcon is tough to pull off in melee. Being succcessful with him because you hone your skills/mixups to make up for his deficiencies is why I like him. Nothing is truly free with him
=
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Well said s2j, but I completely disagree. While I understand you have dedicated a LOT of time to the character, the fact that (all things being constant) Falcon can't recover hinders the large majority of players.
Like, from that statement it almost seems like you are saying that the only thing keeping Falcon fun for you is his weaknesses that you must work to overcome, but the thing is you are like 50 times better than most of us will ever be. Not all of us are capable, at any extent, of many of the things players like you are. Those "challenges" that you enjoy overcoming are simply permanent plateaus to the average smasher.
A more extreme example, for comparison, would be Taj+Mewtwo. While Taj could say "nah I love Mewtwo just the way he is, his weaknesses are half the fun because I have to work around them and be creative", that doesn't change the fact that M2 is an objectively absurdly difficult character to even be somewhat successful with.
Like honestly this game might be one thing where it isnt a good thing to have the tippy top players making the biggest decisions.
Disclaimer: I do NOT want PM to be an "easy" game. I just want a game that has characters without obscene and unnecessary/nonsensical flaws (or if they do have such flaws, give them great strengths to counterract them).
Like, from that statement it almost seems like you are saying that the only thing keeping Falcon fun for you is his weaknesses that you must work to overcome, but the thing is you are like 50 times better than most of us will ever be. Not all of us are capable, at any extent, of many of the things players like you are. Those "challenges" that you enjoy overcoming are simply permanent plateaus to the average smasher.
A more extreme example, for comparison, would be Taj+Mewtwo. While Taj could say "nah I love Mewtwo just the way he is, his weaknesses are half the fun because I have to work around them and be creative", that doesn't change the fact that M2 is an objectively absurdly difficult character to even be somewhat successful with.
Like honestly this game might be one thing where it isnt a good thing to have the tippy top players making the biggest decisions.
Disclaimer: I do NOT want PM to be an "easy" game. I just want a game that has characters without obscene and unnecessary/nonsensical flaws (or if they do have such flaws, give them great strengths to counterract them).
abcool
Smash Ace
@S2J, the buff isn't really a buff IMO. Falcon is still hard to use against good people the Side-b doesn't go very far and if someone is hogging the ledge you still die. Even if you make it onto the stage you suffer from endlag and get punished. There is a reason Falcon didn't win FC or hardly any PM tournies lately. He is waiting for you to come along and prove he is awesome lol.
Also, i use Samus in Melee and Wario in Project M, so i know what you mean when you say bringing out the character strengths make that character worth the time and effort, which is why i was always a big advocate of her remaining untouched with a few buffs here and there. Similar to Falcon.
Edit: The above post makes a lot of sense aswell. I just think some characters in Melee had untapped potential and an underdeveloped metagame, so you don't really know what the result of over buffing can do when you really put time into that character for real. Imagine if Mango never came along, they would have buffed Jiggs and guess what...Jiggs would be a Metaknight tier.
Also, i use Samus in Melee and Wario in Project M, so i know what you mean when you say bringing out the character strengths make that character worth the time and effort, which is why i was always a big advocate of her remaining untouched with a few buffs here and there. Similar to Falcon.
Edit: The above post makes a lot of sense aswell. I just think some characters in Melee had untapped potential and an underdeveloped metagame, so you don't really know what the result of over buffing can do when you really put time into that character for real. Imagine if Mango never came along, they would have buffed Jiggs and guess what...Jiggs would be a Metaknight tier.
Stevo
Smash Champion
Most of the characters in PM got a recovery buff, so Falcon is still not very good at recovering relative to the rest.
Yeah i think falcon got one of the lamest "buffs" ever. But he's still so dope it doesn't really matter. I find edge gaurding him exactly the same, it is REALLY obvious when someone is going to try the side b recovery, you just kinda go out there and stop them. Its almost a weakness actually, they think hey i got this "awesome" new option. I'm like, yeah that option sucks balls, bye bye stock.
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Except for the whole thing where in Melee he literally had two recovery options that were ten times as predictable (up-b high as possible then bob and weave on the way down, unless you're too low for that then do that pitiful pseudo-sweetspot that Falcon is capable of).
You still have those options, plus you can now horizontally sweetspot a ledge. How is that a weakness again?
You still have those options, plus you can now horizontally sweetspot a ledge. How is that a weakness again?
Divinokage
Smash Legend
S2j, even the best Falcons get easily edgeguarded no matter how good you are. What you are saying is pretty weird to me.
Revven
FrankerZ
Please don't take what is stuff that isn't finished as us intentionally giving characters buffs. DK's Up B, an example of this, hasn't had its Melee physics (I'm not going to go into coding jargon, just gonna call'em physics) ported. There's other characters' recoveries like this as well, such as Falco (his recovery is much worse, but it's completely unintentional).
Let's just set that straight. Falcon's recovery changes are intentional. Ganondorf's recovery changes are intentional. Falco's are not. DK's are not. Bowser's are not. etc.
Unless it's a change we clearly have highlighted as something different intentionally, don't assume it's something we're actually keeping and is seen as a buff. There would be a lot less misconceptions this way and spreading of false info.
Edit: A lot of characters' recoveries are the way they are because they are still using Brawl values in some way (not the attacking parts of the moves, the distance/traveling aspects).
Stevo
Smash Champion
good to know. For example, I thought DK's recovery buff was intentional.
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
I would be one to say it should be.
Another Shiny Mewtwo avatar <3I would be one to say it should be.
idk maybe its just me. i'd rather be known for being good at the game in a general sense , rather than being known as a character specialist that does well with a character with glaring weaknesses. :V
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
i mean there are only like two, maybe three characters in melee without large weaknesses...
Well. I didn't say large. I said glaring. But I guess I can see where you drew that from.
What I was getting at was @ you have to work hard with non-tops in order to pull off wins ie nothing is for free etc etc. This becomes more and more true as you go down the list, but after going down so far, more and more you stop being known as a player who wins and more as a character specialist who does well to work around character's problems.
I'd rather be known as a player who wins, as opposed to be known as a character specialist, which is why attempts to balance games is welcomed by me, regardless of how good/bad a character was,, if they had some glaring issue that seriously impaired them from being a top by negating their strengths to a decent degree.
Can you see where I'm coming from? I hope I didnt word that poorly.
What I was getting at was @ you have to work hard with non-tops in order to pull off wins ie nothing is for free etc etc. This becomes more and more true as you go down the list, but after going down so far, more and more you stop being known as a player who wins and more as a character specialist who does well to work around character's problems.
I'd rather be known as a player who wins, as opposed to be known as a character specialist, which is why attempts to balance games is welcomed by me, regardless of how good/bad a character was,, if they had some glaring issue that seriously impaired them from being a top by negating their strengths to a decent degree.
Can you see where I'm coming from? I hope I didnt word that poorly.
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Yeah I think so, thanks for clearing that up. I agree that being better at smash as a whole is probably more rewarding than simply dedicating all of your time to one character in an attempt to get around the weaknesses they really shouldn't have (in a balanced game) in the first place.
I can see where s2j is coming from and there is nothing wrong with that, but maybe he'd better enjoy the pleasure in winning simply because he's a better player on higher levels then being limited by a character that can only go so far because of his issues, in which occasionally getting around these issues makes you feel good.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,565
I don't feel like Falcon's minor recovery buffs suddenly change the character's exploitable weaknesses drastically to a point where the character is no longer interesting to play. Quite a bit would need to be done to do that. His newfound ability to sweetspot is very telegraphed and far slower than say a spacie side-b and still quite edgeguardable. I play darkrain most every weekend, I think I know this pretty well.
More generally speaking, character buffs are more targeted around making a character's strengths more viable in a competitive setting than just "lol well here are their weaknesses, remove 'em!". We've come to the same conclusion that you have; a character's weaknesses are what makes a character interesting, and turns character interaction into more than just a pissing contest of which un-exploitable character can do their bull**** better. Knowing your enemy's character is actually worth something. And that's what makes Project M's character balance so great.
More generally speaking, character buffs are more targeted around making a character's strengths more viable in a competitive setting than just "lol well here are their weaknesses, remove 'em!". We've come to the same conclusion that you have; a character's weaknesses are what makes a character interesting, and turns character interaction into more than just a pissing contest of which un-exploitable character can do their bull**** better. Knowing your enemy's character is actually worth something. And that's what makes Project M's character balance so great.
Oneupsalesman
Smash Journeyman
^I do agree that Project M is much more balanced than Melee, and you know a LOT more about it than I due to you playing it more and, you know, helping MAKE the game. The only thing that bothers me is people talking about how they think that Marth sucks now and Game and Watch, Charizard and Wario are low-tier compared to the others.
Some of this I understand, and some of this is just people whining. It happens. I'm just really, really hoping that by the time we have the final product, which will be a while, any complaints about characters in comparison to inferior or superior other characters will simply be people whining.
This being said, I freaking love that there's a lot less of the "Fox only" stuff that seemed to be so common with Melee.
I think I'm going to just stick around on this thread. The Project M social has been annoying me.
Some of this I understand, and some of this is just people whining. It happens. I'm just really, really hoping that by the time we have the final product, which will be a while, any complaints about characters in comparison to inferior or superior other characters will simply be people whining.
This being said, I freaking love that there's a lot less of the "Fox only" stuff that seemed to be so common with Melee.
I think I'm going to just stick around on this thread. The Project M social has been annoying me.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
"about how they think Marth sucks now"
As if people think he's good in Melee.
As if people think he's good in Melee.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Marth sucks. Ike is better.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
No troll here. Marth's position is a legitimately arguable subject with many people on both sides of the argument for his current placement."about how they think Marth sucks now"
As if people think he's good in Melee.
Definitely maximum troll mode activated here though. Get off the Ike train and look at the character with a little more sensibility instead of gawking at the size of his fair's ****.Marth sucks. Ike is better.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
being low tier in project m is tons better than being low tier in any other smash game.
Archangel
Smash Hero
You got me confused. I did not jump on the Ike train I've been driving it for months now.
On another note of reasons to like this game so far.
POKEMON!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn5T6WWhpHQ
Archangel
Smash Hero
Manly men in tights...pretty sure that's what people like about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzMNN3HBXo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzMNN3HBXo
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I'm surprised you didn't include Ganon. I'm disappointed because he's the king of men.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Relax You'll see him next
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Alright I came to the conclusion last night that Ike is kind of gay. Only character who can reliably edgeguard by using fsmash or neutral b without even trying at all.
Which doesn't help because his *** whips you off stage so easily.
Idk I don't think hes inherently broken. Like hes easy as **** to edgeguard, it's just that he is soo easy to use on stage and to edgeguard with. Hes like Ganon with better hitboxes, disjoint, and stage maneuverability.
Maybe I'm just salty that someone who I go even with 99% of the time was 3 stocking me consistently
Which doesn't help because his *** whips you off stage so easily.
Idk I don't think hes inherently broken. Like hes easy as **** to edgeguard, it's just that he is soo easy to use on stage and to edgeguard with. Hes like Ganon with better hitboxes, disjoint, and stage maneuverability.
Maybe I'm just salty that someone who I go even with 99% of the time was 3 stocking me consistently
Camp, bait, and DD more. Ike also has poor def options ie off stage and oos.
Fsmash can't punish a lot of sweetspots either, so if you're sweetspotting, that may be a fault of your character.
Also nB edgeguard is probaly ledgetechable, its just that we have yet to get ledgeteching made.
Fsmash can't punish a lot of sweetspots either, so if you're sweetspotting, that may be a fault of your character.
Also nB edgeguard is probaly ledgetechable, its just that we have yet to get ledgeteching made.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Ledgeteching doesn't exist yet?
No wonder people think Ike is OP. Forward smash edgeguards (and neutral B) sound super free.
But yeah, Ike is sorta lame. He's decent enough, for sure.
No wonder people think Ike is OP. Forward smash edgeguards (and neutral B) sound super free.
But yeah, Ike is sorta lame. He's decent enough, for sure.
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
The problem I was having with fmash during recovery wasn't when coming from below, it's from above. Like, I landed BEHIND him and the back side of the fsmash hitbox knocked me off the other side of the stage. It's just such a GIGANTIC and POWERFUL hitbox FOSADKFJEWI
The main problem I have with it is the super armor combined with the size of the hitbox. Like, Bowser's super armor **** is annoying but you can maneuver around it 90% of the time. With eruption Ike can just kind of stand there then release it like forever AFTER his opponent uses their recovery.
Like here's the thing (and in all examples I am using Mario because he's my fave in P:M <3)...if Marth sat there at the edge charging nb, then you could recover simply by using your up b when they aren't expecting it. It happens qucik enough to where they have to PREDICT when you are going to use it and don't get free KOs. With Ike's nb, he can just release it the instant he sees you using your third jump and your ****ing donezo. It's stupid, for all intents and purposes I won the recovery vs. edgeguard battle but because his attack can absorb mine, I cannot sweetspot or attempt to hit him out of the way. There are literally no options.
Damn I sound mad...
OH. Ike's Bsmash.
yeah. i know that feel bro. :/
I'm still a bit unsure about your issues with nB. Maybe it's because of people I'm playing, but edgeguarding with nB has always cost a bunch of damage or a stock for the Ike.
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Yeah its hard to explain, I would have to show it to you. It's basically that Ike gets free edgeguards against characters with very fast upb that would normally be able to hit the defender away from the ledge with said upb quicker than the defender could react.
Archangel
Smash Hero
I don't mind Ike Fsmashing at me when I'm recovering. The Superpowered, Super armor, Meteor spiking, neutral-B is pissing me off though.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Sounds like you guys havent played a good Ike yet.. And yes even me, someone I **** in Melee usually almost beats me with Ike when I play him in P:M. It's definitely not the player but Ike carrying all the noob players.
My point with this is even if Ike is an easy character to play, he will remain a ***** to deal with even after years of experience. There's a lot of things you cannot avoid no matter how hard you try.
Dair ---> Fsmash kills FFers at 50%. Bair kills at 100%. Things like that cannot change.
My point with this is even if Ike is an easy character to play, he will remain a ***** to deal with even after years of experience. There's a lot of things you cannot avoid no matter how hard you try.
Dair ---> Fsmash kills FFers at 50%. Bair kills at 100%. Things like that cannot change.
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Yeah, I was on the fence about Ike until I played a half decent one the other night...I'm definitely not the person to make excuses as I always try my best to find a way around things, but Ikes combination of quickness, HUGE disjointed hitboxes, and sheer power kinda just makes me sad