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In addition to that, there can even be the Charge Beam Combos, where if you store a fully charged Neutral-B and do Side-B while holding B down, Samus will do a Charge Beam Combo. They would have a lot of startup lag to balance it out though.
I think it's a big missed opportunity that his Left Victory Pose doesn't have his mark of the Triforce of Power on it. It's as bad as Sheik having no harp taunt or victory pose.
Also, how would the Phantom Ganons work? Would they be an alternate way of implementing Flame Choke by having Ganondorf send a Phantom out to hold the enemy in place? Blazing Bats would best be done on a separate pig Ganon character.Just because I know people are going to spam it,doesn't have his Dead Man's Volley acknowledged. But I don't think giving him a projectile is the way to go about this; after all, having a projectile and a huge sword would be OP for anyone but a lightweight (see Sephiroth). Rather, I would have his Warlock Punch have a "tap" version where if you simply tap Neutral-B, you get a quick uncharged backhand that reflects projectiles and acts as a combo setup.
Skull Bash is an artifact from when it was a Gen I TM, and Agility can be learned by Pikachu but not Pichu. It's hard to say what other moves Pichu could even use though.
Mainly because they want DK to be a fairly traditional heavy. Traditional heavies didn't have projectiles usually. Plus a barrel would have to be particularly powerful.
it's not that he needs a projectile, it's that he needs the barrels.
Is there any way to implement them without going against his archetype's aversion to good projectiles?
Quillion
, am I right that you would be less opposed to the idea of projectiles for heavyweight characters if they were not intended to be brawling types?
I admit, it's kinda hard for me to picture a "heavy zoner" as good design when Sakurai specifically noted that Sephiroth had to be light for balancing reasons. Maybe what they can do is give the "brawling heavies" better recoveries to help their survivability while "zoning heavies" have the bad recoveries that heavies traditionally have now.
When you think about it, all of the weight classes could have some of each archetype. Perhaps the reason you would have difficulty swallowing it is because the design team simply has not made a habit of doing this, and so you would not be used to it.
I'm not saying they would have to be a zoner, basically their projectiles would be slow, the opposite of rapid, and wouldn't have too much range
I might add that if the range is short enough, it could even be thought of as an extended physical attack, just for those who would need to cope psychologically.
yeah that's pretty much what i'm going for.
I only consider incineroar and up to be "true" heavies, and we really aren't talking about competitive balance here, or at least i'm not
I thought Samus was a middle weight. I am a Brawl maroon, so I cannot speak about Ultimate characters in that way. Everything I say has Brawl and other's statements in mind. Good point about Snake and R.O.B. though.
THIS.
: I don't know why Light Speed Dash was excluded from his moveset when the move was pretty much already in the game (). Well okay, I can kinda understand for Brawl, since Sonic was a rushed addition. Should have been fixed by now.: I'd really love to see a Fairy-type move now that she's had the typing for years. Rollout is a pretty crappy move anyway and doesn't really suit Puff. Maybe Dazzling Gleam for a ranged option, like how I outspace swordies with a lot of Bowser Flame Breath if I'm fighting a swordie as Bowser. Or maybe Sweet Kiss, which could cause stun like Mewtwo's Disable.: Y'know, it's kinda weird that Force Palm is here, but Bone Rush isn't. Force Palm is your weak, early-on Fighting move that you replace with stronger moves later. Bone Rush, however, is a move you may very well keep and even if you don't, is super strong for a good chunk of the game. Plus he's like, the only Pokemon to learn it other than Marowak. Maybe Sakurai only had early bits of Lucario's moveset to go off of, since Riolu learns Force Palm very early. Still, a shame that the bone became so iconic to Lucario, only to keep getting excluded from Smash.: Okay, so not really a move. But, you would have thought the Wild Card would have had "Persona Change" for his neutral or down special, in a similar vein to Shulk or Pokemon Trainer. : You know, it occurs to me that the only playable Psychic type... doesn't have anything that could be the move Psychic. I'm happy with Mewtwo's kit without it, though.: Is supposed to shoot fire from his belt. I can understand why this was excluded, though. Even though the belt is, well, not what's below the belt, it can't help but draw similarities to pee and other things that occur there that aren't appropriate to mention. Plus, the other Fire-based heavies (Charizard, Bowser, and Ridley) have a fire breath move, so I support the exclusion for the sake of variety (though, I wonder how much extra % I could have raked up had Incin been given Flamethrower, especially with Revenge).
Just wondering, why do people consider Bone Rush to be an "iconic move" for Lucario? I don't think the Lucario in its debut movie even used it, and even Ash's Lucario in the anime doesn't have it. The Lucario in Pokkén Tournament uses it, but that's hardly an iconic game, at least for now.
Personally, I think Mewtwo should have the magenta energy associated with Psychic-types instead of its "shadow energy" that is more associated with Ghost-types.
because I'm pretty sure almost every other lucario in the anime uses it, him not having it would be like if pikachu didn't have thunderbo- oh wait
I suppose you're right, but I'm not on board on letting the anime be the end-all-be-all of representation in Smash aside from the "Pokémon saying their names" thing.
has the Goomba Stomp. Doc doesn't stomp in his series, but Mario stomps in the main series and quite a bit of spinoffs.
you see, the pokemon anime is sort of what makes things in pokemon iconic, like the anime is responsible for most of what people think of when they think of pokemon, mainly because of how open ended the pokemon games are when it comes to the pokemon themselves, the pokemon anime basically defines what's iconic for most pokemon, and what pokemon are iconic themselves
I feel like the stomp and tornado are just there to make doc more unique, but honestly in a future smash game I would want them to give those to mario and just make doc a skin tbhOn another note, this is more that "a move on the wrong character", but since Ultimate came out, I've been pretty confused why
instead of vanilla
Along with the Tornado, it makes me feel like Doc is a dumping ground for moves that Mario should have but has no room for.
I don't get why it's a bad idea, it's literally Mario with a trenchcoat and the Megavitamins are just reskined Fireballs
That would be a passable idea if they kept Doc's drill kick and "so long" throw. But instead they gave him the Goomba Stomp and a made-up back throw. The former is a move that Mario absolutely should have considering that's his main if not only form of unarmed combat in several main games and spinoffs.
Because they aren't reskinned fireballs. They're actually different moves with different effects. And that requires a hard "own slot" alone. The tiniest change is why he has a slot in the first place. Do note he's barely different from Mario in Melee. Part of why he got that slot was just to add more music too.
Ganondorf wouldn't be reworked like that either way. Even the most changed characters still clearly have a similar moveset, just play fairly different despite this. Black Shadow can still come as a Ganondorf clone/Echo(depending how much changed attributes matter like weight) and work fine. Literally, Black Shadow(who does not have Captain Falcon's bodyshape so can't be his Echo period) is excellent to represent the Brawl playstyle.
ok but what i'm saying is, doc doesn't need to be different, besides the megavitamins all of his moves are made up, in my opinion doc should have never been his own character with any differences beyond cosmetic stuff
There is nothing that suggests they make sense on Luigi. That's a product from a spin-off game after Melee entirely. Doctor Mario is a doctor. He works with electrical equipment as a basic concept. Even the(albeit unofficial) guide calls his core electrical move Defribilator. He's 100% logical to do. That's why he has them, not Luigi. Like, Luigi never used electricity nor has any reason to be associated with it till after Melee existed. Dr. Mario would've never worked as a skin here.
Agreed. It's a logical thing for him to get, since he actually has that ability in the games. Though to be fair, he's no longer crouching anymore and is a lot more of a case of "standing up right cause wrestling style" so jumping on his head is now plausible. So in a sense it actually makes sense for him to be footstool stomped(btw, I couldn't remember that term, so thanks for saying that here).
Bowser still has his spikes facing right up when he's crouching though, which was what I was trying to say. He should have that mechanic while he's crouching, not all the time.
Ohhhhh. Yeah, I see what you mean now. I misread it a bit. Sorry about that.
Yeah, reworking Ganondorf is definitely unethical, but even just his sword smashes were an unethical change in themselves (even if swords are Ganondorf's iconic weapon type). I'd much prefer that they be reverted to their elbow and kick animations instead of shunting them off to Black Shadow just to represent "old Ganondorf".
Honestly, if we have to keep Doc on just for legacy reasons, I wouldn't be opposed to Mario and Doc sharing a Down-B animation. They would have different properties; maybe Doc's can kill better and Mario's is faster but weaker to be more of a combo move. Just being "heavy Mario" is enough to make Doc at least feel unique even if he's sharing a lot of animations with Mario.
You could argue that the Drill Kick is another interpretation of the spin jump, although that's admittedly a weak argument considering several Smash 64 and Melee characters had drill moves of some sort. I wouldn't call Luigi's dair a Goomba Stomp, though. It's just another Drill Kick animation, albeit a single-hit one which he essentially shares with Falco.
It's quotes like this that make me WANT a Variation System like in Street Fighter V and Mortal Kombat X.
When you say Variation system, do you mean swappable movesets on the CSS?
smashboards.com
Actually he uses it in Hyrule Warriors.
Twinrova is never killed in the child timeline, so it actually makes sense for them to die in another game (not that Nintendo really gave proper consideration to such a fact as their offical timeline just shoved all the old games onto a fabricated Ganon wins timeline).
Even though I don't like Ganondorf's sword smashes from an aesthetics and moveset design standpoint, if those moves are any indication, I think 1-3 moves a game being changed wouldn't hurt. But they have to avoid changing moves that are already fun on their own; again Ganondorf's elbow and kicks were too fun to throw away.
I like the idea, but in practice, I think this stunt will further starve the next game of non-core content; Smash 4 and Ultimate already suffer from that. Also, I don't think every character has enough material for more custom specials. Finally, I think some moves are best reserved for normals, like Mario's hammer for example. Maybe that move can replace his up smash (it's not like his headbutt launching skyward makes sense as it is).That's why I want Custom Specials to come back so much in a more expansive way than SSB4's minor differences. Every character in the game deserves the Palutena treatment of unique custom moves. You want Hammer on Mario but still want the fire balls? Sure, alternate neutral special. Here's a link to my thread of ideas for custom specials other characters could get.
I made Custom Special moves for (nearly) every character in the game
I loved special moves in SSB4, at least as a concept. I think in practice they were mostly a bit on the uncreative side, but still cool nonetheless. And ever since I wanted to see them give unique custom specials to every character, not just Palutena and the Miis. So I've made them myself. But...
I'd rather just see Mario Tornado move back to Down-B and turn the Goomba Stomp into his d-air like Doc. I still don't think anyone likes FLUDD from a moveset design standpoint given how situational it is. Yes, it will make the two more similar animation-wise, no I don't care since their playstyles would still be distinct.
That would be a nice way of distinguishing Chrom and Roy as well. And it would help distinguish Ike's Eruption since it's basically Flare Blade as well.
Maybe the gauntlets and white magic can replace his jab: gauntlets for 1-2-3 hit jab and white magic for a rapid jab.
Samus is fine, specialwise at least. The only real problem with her is in comparison to other gunner-type characters like Mega Man and Mii Gunner who have projectile normals and pseudo-projectile normals, so I think she can stand to steal some of their moves to replace her boring melee blows. Other potential abilities like the Super Bomb, Space Jump, and Speed Booster/Shinespark would be too hard to implement. Though I at least wanted Aeion Beam Burst to replace Zero Laser since it would be a canonically fitting Final Smash.
The problem with the Links is that they could stand to have more distinct abilities. Even within the limitations of "keep normals", BotW Link should've had multiple weapons from that game, Young Link could transform into his various forms, and Toon Link could use the Skull Hammer. I would personally also add a TP/OoT Link as an echo for Link so that the old moveset is completely intact.
Isn't that just another interpretation of this attack?Actually he uses it in Hyrule Warriors.
The issue is that a lot of the things that are missing are things that would work much better as special moves. Stuff like giving Kirby his slide as his Down A is easily changed, but giving him like the Mirror ability would work much better as a special (and even Beam too I think, though I think someone suggested it as a forward aerial which I could see working).
If we're talking 12 new specials for everyone then yes, some characters would struggle to reach that without making stuff up. But I don't think 8 specials (so an extra four) would be a bench mark for most of the cast to reach. And as I said in that thread to you before, another possibility could be to give them something like 7, but make it free to map them to any of the four inputs a player might want. Simon Belmont actually feels really unintutive to me as his specials are all on different buttons to characters with similar attacks to him, which throws me off.
I think you put too much stock in the name of Mario's old down aerial. Because in reality it's not anything like his actual jumping attacks in Mario games. It is just a really generic down aerial attack based off nothing. Performing a foot stool is exactly what Mario does in his games, he jumps off an enemy and leaps higher as a result. For his old down air to come back it'd need to actually have him bounce upwards like Greninja''s down aerial for it to in any way resemble his jumping abilities in game. Footstooling already does that perfectly. And adding damage to it would be a really easily implemented change.
Not bad ideas at all.
There's also the counter she has in her most recent game, the Metroid 2 remake. I don't think Samus should actually get a counter, but it is noteable for being basically the only melee move she has in her own games which, I don't think, they implemented into Brawl at all in Ultimate.
I think adding more Link's is not the solution (custom specials are). I would like to see the Deku Leaf or the Sail Cloth act as the recovery for one of them though. Spin Attack was always an odd choice for a recovery on Link. I don't know why back in the day they didn't make his Hook Shot his recovery.
In part yeah, but I do think the back handed punch is an intentional nod to Warlock Punch. Its faster than Warlock Punch, but it looks even more like it from a side on camera angle. And I agree, a gauntlet Ganondorf in Hyrule Warriors using all his Smash Bros. animations would have been great.
