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What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

Quillion

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My thoughts on Ganondorf;

He does punch in canon, as Wind Waker shows. This is after Smash, sure, but let's note he has OOT official artwork of him doing an overhead punch at Link. This is literally his Forward Aerial. Him punching is not "weird". I do understand the annoyances at him being a clone, mind you.
As someone who wishes Ganon was reverted to a pure brawler with no sword, every time I bring that up, I'm always told that cutscenes and artwork are worse sources for Smash material than actual boss fights that involve gameplay. Every time I say that it's as canon as anything done in gameplay is dismissed. Can you come up with a better counter? I can't, and it's rather frustrating when I get into Ganon canon debates.

He does use swords, but never a broadsword in any canon game. That said, it's a neat throwback to the plans during Melee(which is the only sword that works with his legitimate brawler design), but feels awkward right n ow. I think he had a good moveset in 4 overall, and what needs to leave is his Up Tilt anyway. That's horrid. To what, I dunno yet.
Yeah, the sword smashes were clearly tacked on to pander to vocal "Canondorf" fans. Not only are the animations ripped from Ike and Cloud, they just don't gel with his moveset. It feels overly out of place.

At least Wario's Shoulder Bash rework replaced a move I'm indifferent to, so that gets a pass. But literal Ike F-Smash in place of an epic elbow is just as bad as Bowser losing that brutal head smash.

I'd say his up-tilt would do well if it had a "tap" version that just does a quicker axe kick. It would preserve the original move while adding options; I had the same suggestion for Warlock Punch.

Last thing I'd like to see is his Lightning Ball(since it's not about being reflected) as a unique Neutral A, where he can only use it by holding down the Button. This way it doesn't mess with his core moveset. I do like the idea he could possibly reflect it back, but only if it's hit by a proper Reflector(I.E. Fox) first, that way you can work both of his proper spells in. Incidentally Phantom Ganon uses Dead Man's Volley more than Ganondorf ever did. ...I mean, it's twice, but still.
I think Zelda could have a projectile normal as she's supposed to be a zoner, but I can't really see Ganon getting any sort of projectile. He's currently the most traditional of traditional heavies, and having a projectile would go against the close-range philosophy of them.

I did see Villager mentioned, but he/she is a representation of the items and tool gameplay in AC. Other than missing the Fishing Rod(which Isabelle has), what is he/she actually missing of importance? It has the Gyroids, multiple items within the games, even a reference to Punch-Out!! via some of the normals, a retro game specifically available on the GameCube version. There's even a Boxing Ring set of items, so it's a straight reference to AC in itself. I mean, if the idea is to switch Villager and Isabelle's Side B's, I'm all for that. Otherwise, that'll need some elaboration.
Honestly, I find Isabelle is little more than a dumping ground for moves Villager should have but has no room for. Same with Dr. Mario to Mario; why else would he get the Tornado and freaking Goomba Stomp where Mario doesn't?

Toon Link definitely should be using some of the other items, but I do think the specials aren't bad alone, since they're an iconic Link set in general. And he's a generational character. For instance, I could see some various changes otherwise. Like Up B could become the Grappling Hook under certain conditions(like being away from a grappable platform at the very end of a stage, but otherwise it's the Spin Attack. Or on the Ground, it's the Spin Attack, and the air is the Grappling Hook). There's other options to keep his iconic moves and update them.
They can just replace the Hookshot with the Grappling Hook for the sake of variety. Even in Wind Waker, the two tools aren't all that different.

Young Link is actually the MM one(not that you could fully tell...) as well as OOT, so Masks would be amazing.
Yeah, the Links certainly need to be diversified. I even think BotW Link should be more different with more melee weapons, but only if TP/OoT Link is an echo.

Worth noting that Mario actually does use a Fire attack like in Smash later on in the Mario & Luigi series, but that's not actually iconic. The Hammer does sound good. Besides, Dr. Mario has his own variation with Electricity, and the Thunder Hand isn't even on Luigi anyway, so you still somewhat get the idea of the Mario & Luigi reference at that point. Though I do admit I'm not a big fan of F.L.U.D.D., but only cause it's a kind of bleh. If it gave him an alternate moveset, where you had limited water(unless you actually swam somewhere to refill it), it could make for a much more diverse option. I'm not sure there's a much better option besides the Galaxy Spin, since Dr. Mario and Luigi has the classic spins. Cappy is fairly hard to use as a move, especially since you can't have Mario control a character. And literally switching their places sounds like a recipe for broken gameplay. It could be okay, but I think it's likely to work badly for a balanced moveset. That, and isn't he combo-heavy now? It kind of is awkward. F.L.U.D.D. is too, but it's actually good at edgeguarding, something to help finish the opponent off, so it only slightly is awkward in matches.
Honestly, Mario needs to be more "generalized". Cape and FLUDD are severely outdated on their own. Spin (note that Spin was in the NSMB games sans attack function) would be a better Side-B. Down-B can be Ground Pound, and I don't care that Bowser and Yoshi already have it. And he needs the d-air Goomba Stomp from Doc.

Agreed on Zelda. Needs her Light Arrows, even if she's not the only one to use them. She also has telepathy and can create/take down barriers, neither of which are shown.

Sheik seriously needs her Harp. She's fine otherwise.
Reworking Light Arrow as a regular move would be nice, but how would telepathy and literally opening doors work?

Sheik does need her harp, but only as a taunt and/or victory pose.

EDIT: fixing backslash mistakes
 
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Oracle Link

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personally I think ness could have moves like paralysis or hypnosis, and he should have pk rockin as a final smash
also ness doesn't fight with his hands iirc, so he should use his bat for normals
The bat thing i agree on but a problem still is if Ness+Lucas dont have Fire,Thunder and Ice then how should it get in i mean Porky is Stetching it already (although i still want him) when it comes to Characters adding Kumatora/Paula/Poo seems to much i think

Ganon the pig uses a trident, not Ganondorf the man. Also, the Zelda series has largely moved away from Ganon being a trident wielder outside of explicit retro throwbacks.



That's like saying Falcon's moveset is dumb and he should be a gun wielder while moving his moveset to Blaziken. It just wouldn't work.
No it fits FALCON! Ganondorf needs Dead Mans Volley its his Most iconic Attack while Warlock Punch never Appeared in Zelda Ever!
 

One-Winged Bagel

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No it fits FALCON! Ganondorf needs Dead Mans Volley its his Most iconic Attack while Warlock Punch never Appeared in Zelda Ever!
Is it? Cause it's the most iconic attack for Agnahim and Phantom Ganon, of the latter of whom it's an extremely iconic move for. He also uses his Lightning Ball in canon more than once as is, and actually does a choke move more than once. He even uses swords more than once. Ganondorf's most actual iconic move is holding up his Triforce piece and turning into Ganon, which he does for a Final Smash. Dead Man's Volley is memorable because a ton of bosses use it since ALTTP. That's the reason it exists, as a memorable generic boss move that tons of characters(which at first remotely related to Ganon/dorf, but that changed pretty fast) used.

Are you ignoring that Ganondorf literally punches in canon too? Like, that's actually something he does as part of his actual earthquake punch. So he does pull the move itself off. Wizard's Foot is also part of the same animation too(namely the aerial one). Of his specials, only Dark Dive isn't from any in-game animations he does whatsoever. And that's not counting him literally punching Link out in Wind Waker. The idea he doesn't punch is entirely unfounded.

Dead Man's Volley does not remotely fit the playstyle either, as he's a slower brawling character who focuses hard on strength. It also only works if almost anyone and anything can reflect it without using a proper Reflecting option normally. If it doesn't work that way, it's not a proper canon version of the move. If you aren't going to implement it right, then it's no point in calling it a canon move needed. It's why I suggested a good half-way point using a move he actually made his own a lot better(Lightning Ball) while at least giving a potential for a proper DMV fight.

I would like to also note that DMV wasn't even a name until the DS games, when the Cubus Sisters mentioned it. Who have literally zero relation to Ganon/dorf, meaning it's the second game where they don't attempt to tie it to him in some way. The first is the Oracle series, where a Blue Stalfos uses it. Not Agnahim, Ganondorf, or Phantom Ganon. A simple Stalfos that's colored Blue. They don't care who they throw it on, and that's pretty much before Brawl, the first time Ganondorf could've gotten the move. And it's not even important to the Ganon line anymore. It's been always a cool boss move meant to be used by anyone that they could work it onto. The Oracle games lightly tried to tie in the rest of the Ganon storyline in an odd way too. Suddenly he's resurrected(Ganondorf was planned, but never used), and suddenly Twinrova exists again despite dying in canon. This has nothing to do with Termina, which their counterparts are alive, but not remotely evil. So that already leaves an odd puzzle. Only Ganon/dorf is able to be resurrected more than once, established a lot of times, as he has his own reincarnation ability(which was also odd, since they had to suddenly use a ritual to do so. Which failed overall, as his mind was gone, removing the human part that made Ganon actually an intelligent and dangerous foe. It's one of the easiest boss fights in the game, yeah).

On another note, it's better you quote more than one message before replying(as double posting is against the rules). And yelling at others to try and force your opinion really isn't going to make people agree with you. Ganondorf 100% punches in canon, and he's literally the physical warrior in the Zelda series too. He's designed to have both physical moves and magic, and we saw the idea of him being physical in the artwork as well. Even his first battle shows him using his physical and magical prowess at once. That ground pound? It isn't just a projectile, he's using a kick-like animation in order to punch the ground with magic to create the shockwave. He's still a magic user(his element being mainly darkness, though he uses slight electricity too, as Thunder Punch, his Neutral A move shows) regardless in Smash. Always has been, and always will be.

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I won't fully quote you, Quillion, but I will note my thoughts; The Cape is still iconic to Mario and isn't remotely outdated. It's an important tool in his arsenal. F.L.U.D.D. isn't utilized remotely well, on the other hand, though a neat idea. It's easy to push out cause the game is old, but he no longer uses that in any later games. It's not a very iconic move and its notability came from being, well, full of options not available in Smash. It's not used well enough for me to think it should stay. The spin is iconic too, much like the Fireball and Super Jump Punch. The Ground Pound, honestly, isn't that iconic enough for a special move at this point. Goomba Stomp, yes, but the there's a lot of times Mario never needed it either way. It doesn't really add much to his arsenal, nor help his game plan. And he more or less has the Goomba Stomp like most others as that's what the Footstool Jump is. There might be a few who can't do it in Smash, but I think it's supposed to be everyone.

I do agree, yeah, the Sword just doesn't work well at all. It doesn't flow in the moveset and feels wonky. It's a full interpretation of his proper Melee plans, since it's the same Sword he was always going to use it before development makes it too difficult at the time, but it likely wouldn't have worked nearly that well either. Seeing as he doesn't use actual Broadswords in Canon either. Ganon one time uses swords in a powerful motion, but Ganondorf's only swords were much faster variants. Hyrule Warriors is the first game(non canon too) to attempt to use a variation of his Broadsword. Which the implementation in Smash does fit at least the moveset design a lot better than the rather crappy one from 4(though at least it's an actual attack he uses once, a hard stab through from TP. He very awkwardly uses the sword in the boss fight too, as it is not a sword designed well for a full-out physical battle. But that's an issue with TP anyway. Ganondorf is used fairly badly there. He ruins Zant's plausible characterization a lot, feels a bit forced into the story overall beyond the execution scene, and while his boss fights are fun, only three of the four work decently well. The Zelda Puppet boss actually does fit her psychic abilities better. Boar Ganon actually acts like the proper Beast design. The Horseback fight is very very good, having Zelda properly use her Light Arrows again. Ganondorf then uses the Sword of Sages in an attempt to use it like a much more physical sword instead of one that's designed more around fencing and stabbing. It's not a proper Gerudo Sword, like in WW, which he uses a lot more logically and moves like an actual Gerudo too. Don't get me wrong, the battle was fun, but it's not very well-executed swordplay. I'll give credit that they at least kept the characterization the entire way. Ganondorf is bloody insane now, so him using a sword in the most awkward way possible that doesn't fit how it should be used for maximum efficiency? He's no longer trying to be smart, but just trying to cause destruction and doesn't care how it's done.

I'm not sure an Axe Kick fits his Up Tilt that well, mind you. Volcano Kick does fit his physical prowess to a degree, but it's too slow as is to be useful enough. It doesn't have proper armor like Warlock Punch does, which makes it a solid move to use. Assuming the sword stays, it could have him bring his hilt down akin to how some sword users, when grabbing an enemy, use the hilt of their sword to deal a little damage. Quickly tapping A again could have him swing it. This might be a good way to properly use his sword while making his Up Tilt significantly better, and still keeping some of power intact. That said, His Forward Smash isn't actually too bad using his sword now. It's a different swing style but it does keep a lot of the physical impact. HIs Down Smash is basically a new animation but feels very similar to the old one. I think his Up Smash should return to his Brawl/4 kick, and it's really good and feels like it keeps the "power" part super well. Not that his new Up Smash is actually bad either.

Isabelle isn't some dumping ground for Villager. That was just the one item Villager never used, and she's meant to be more innocent and patient as a character anyway. Fishing fits her a bit better as is. Her moveset branches off of Villager since she can generally use those items due to being from the same game, and she gives a lot of items to the player. Though I won't deny Tom Nook using tools fits better. That said, many were changed to fit her personality better, and with a time limit to make the entire game, giving her a much more accurate moveset using a lot of her own abilities and associated stuff wasn't all that feasible. One of her few things is the Toy Hamme, from Amiibo Festival. She should be updated to focus a bit more on what she does work with, the work projects. She's not that bad otherwise.
 

Oracle Link

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Is it? Cause it's the most iconic attack for Agnahim and Phantom Ganon, of the latter of whom it's an extremely iconic move for. He also uses his Lightning Ball in canon more than once as is, and actually does a choke move more than once. He even uses swords more than once. Ganondorf's most actual iconic move is holding up his Triforce piece and turning into Ganon, which he does for a Final Smash. Dead Man's Volley is memorable because a ton of bosses use it since ALTTP. That's the reason it exists, as a memorable generic boss move that tons of characters(which at first remotely related to Ganon/dorf, but that changed pretty fast) used.

Are you ignoring that Ganondorf literally punches in canon too? Like, that's actually something he does as part of his actual earthquake punch. So he does pull the move itself off. Wizard's Foot is also part of the same animation too(namely the aerial one). Of his specials, only Dark Dive isn't from any in-game animations he does whatsoever. And that's not counting him literally punching Link out in Wind Waker. The idea he doesn't punch is entirely unfounded.

Dead Man's Volley does not remotely fit the playstyle either, as he's a slower brawling character who focuses hard on strength. It also only works if almost anyone and anything can reflect it without using a proper Reflecting option normally. If it doesn't work that way, it's not a proper canon version of the move. If you aren't going to implement it right, then it's no point in calling it a canon move needed. It's why I suggested a good half-way point using a move he actually made his own a lot better(Lightning Ball) while at least giving a potential for a proper DMV fight.

I would like to also note that DMV wasn't even a name until the DS games, when the Cubus Sisters mentioned it. Who have literally zero relation to Ganon/dorf, meaning it's the second game where they don't attempt to tie it to him in some way. The first is the Oracle series, where a Blue Stalfos uses it. Not Agnahim, Ganondorf, or Phantom Ganon. A simple Stalfos that's colored Blue. They don't care who they throw it on, and that's pretty much before Brawl, the first time Ganondorf could've gotten the move. And it's not even important to the Ganon line anymore. It's been always a cool boss move meant to be used by anyone that they could work it onto. The Oracle games lightly tried to tie in the rest of the Ganon storyline in an odd way too. Suddenly he's resurrected(Ganondorf was planned, but never used), and suddenly Twinrova exists again despite dying in canon. This has nothing to do with Termina, which their counterparts are alive, but not remotely evil. So that already leaves an odd puzzle. Only Ganon/dorf is able to be resurrected more than once, established a lot of times, as he has his own reincarnation ability(which was also odd, since they had to suddenly use a ritual to do so. Which failed overall, as his mind was gone, removing the human part that made Ganon actually an intelligent and dangerous foe. It's one of the easiest boss fights in the game, yeah).

On another note, it's better you quote more than one message before replying(as double posting is against the rules). And yelling at others to try and force your opinion really isn't going to make people agree with you. Ganondorf 100% punches in canon, and he's literally the physical warrior in the Zelda series too. He's designed to have both physical moves and magic, and we saw the idea of him being physical in the artwork as well. Even his first battle shows him using his physical and magical prowess at once. That ground pound? It isn't just a projectile, he's using a kick-like animation in order to punch the ground with magic to create the shockwave. He's still a magic user(his element being mainly darkness, though he uses slight electricity too, as Thunder Punch, his Neutral A move shows) regardless in Smash. Always has been, and always will be.

--------------

I won't fully quote you, Quillion, but I will note my thoughts; The Cape is still iconic to Mario and isn't remotely outdated. It's an important tool in his arsenal. F.L.U.D.D. isn't utilized remotely well, on the other hand, though a neat idea. It's easy to push out cause the game is old, but he no longer uses that in any later games. It's not a very iconic move and its notability came from being, well, full of options not available in Smash. It's not used well enough for me to think it should stay. The spin is iconic too, much like the Fireball and Super Jump Punch. The Ground Pound, honestly, isn't that iconic enough for a special move at this point. Goomba Stomp, yes, but the there's a lot of times Mario never needed it either way. It doesn't really add much to his arsenal, nor help his game plan. And he more or less has the Goomba Stomp like most others as that's what the Footstool Jump is. There might be a few who can't do it in Smash, but I think it's supposed to be everyone.

I do agree, yeah, the Sword just doesn't work well at all. It doesn't flow in the moveset and feels wonky. It's a full interpretation of his proper Melee plans, since it's the same Sword he was always going to use it before development makes it too difficult at the time, but it likely wouldn't have worked nearly that well either. Seeing as he doesn't use actual Broadswords in Canon either. Ganon one time uses swords in a powerful motion, but Ganondorf's only swords were much faster variants. Hyrule Warriors is the first game(non canon too) to attempt to use a variation of his Broadsword. Which the implementation in Smash does fit at least the moveset design a lot better than the rather crappy one from 4(though at least it's an actual attack he uses once, a hard stab through from TP. He very awkwardly uses the sword in the boss fight too, as it is not a sword designed well for a full-out physical battle. But that's an issue with TP anyway. Ganondorf is used fairly badly there. He ruins Zant's plausible characterization a lot, feels a bit forced into the story overall beyond the execution scene, and while his boss fights are fun, only three of the four work decently well. The Zelda Puppet boss actually does fit her psychic abilities better. Boar Ganon actually acts like the proper Beast design. The Horseback fight is very very good, having Zelda properly use her Light Arrows again. Ganondorf then uses the Sword of Sages in an attempt to use it like a much more physical sword instead of one that's designed more around fencing and stabbing. It's not a proper Gerudo Sword, like in WW, which he uses a lot more logically and moves like an actual Gerudo too. Don't get me wrong, the battle was fun, but it's not very well-executed swordplay. I'll give credit that they at least kept the characterization the entire way. Ganondorf is bloody insane now, so him using a sword in the most awkward way possible that doesn't fit how it should be used for maximum efficiency? He's no longer trying to be smart, but just trying to cause destruction and doesn't care how it's done.

I'm not sure an Axe Kick fits his Up Tilt that well, mind you. Volcano Kick does fit his physical prowess to a degree, but it's too slow as is to be useful enough. It doesn't have proper armor like Warlock Punch does, which makes it a solid move to use. Assuming the sword stays, it could have him bring his hilt down akin to how some sword users, when grabbing an enemy, use the hilt of their sword to deal a little damage. Quickly tapping A again could have him swing it. This might be a good way to properly use his sword while making his Up Tilt significantly better, and still keeping some of power intact. That said, His Forward Smash isn't actually too bad using his sword now. It's a different swing style but it does keep a lot of the physical impact. HIs Down Smash is basically a new animation but feels very similar to the old one. I think his Up Smash should return to his Brawl/4 kick, and it's really good and feels like it keeps the "power" part super well. Not that his new Up Smash is actually bad either.

Isabelle isn't some dumping ground for Villager. That was just the one item Villager never used, and she's meant to be more innocent and patient as a character anyway. Fishing fits her a bit better as is. Her moveset branches off of Villager since she can generally use those items due to being from the same game, and she gives a lot of items to the player. Though I won't deny Tom Nook using tools fits better. That said, many were changed to fit her personality better, and with a time limit to make the entire game, giving her a much more accurate moveset using a lot of her own abilities and associated stuff wasn't all that feasible. One of her few things is the Toy Hamme, from Amiibo Festival. She should be updated to focus a bit more on what she does work with, the work projects. She's not that bad otherwise.
Seems we have diffrent opinions and stand behind them so Good Bye!
 

Otoad64

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I did see Villager mentioned, but he/she is a representation of the items and tool gameplay in AC. Other than missing the Fishing Rod(which Isabelle has), what is he/she actually missing of importance? It has the Gyroids, multiple items within the games, even a reference to Punch-Out!! via some of the normals, a retro game specifically available on the GameCube version. There's even a Boxing Ring set of items, so it's a straight reference to AC in itself. I mean, if the idea is to switch Villager and Isabelle's Side B's, I'm all for that. Otherwise, that'll need some elaboration.
villager is fine now but in the next game I think he should have a new horizons inspired moveset. Especially since given that game's success I wouldn't be suprised if they pulled a botw and used that game as a base going forward
even then I would rather his up b reference his own game
Though I do admit I'm not a big fan of F.L.U.D.D., but only cause it's a kind of bleh. If it gave him an alternate moveset, where you had limited water(unless you actually swam somewhere to refill it), it could make for a much more diverse option. I'm not sure there's a much better option besides the Galaxy Spin, since Dr. Mario and Luigi has the classic spins. Cappy is fairly hard to use as a move, especially since you can't have Mario control a character. And literally switching their places sounds like a recipe for broken gameplay. It could be okay, but I think it's likely to work badly for a balanced moveset. That, and isn't he combo-heavy now? It kind of is awkward. F.L.U.D.D. is too, but it's actually good at edgeguarding, something to help finish the opponent off, so it only slightly is awkward in matches.
I think he should have a ground pound instead of fludd, there are ways they could make it different then yoshi's. I would honestly prefer fludd's hover nozel as up b instead of down b, if i had to have fludd in there, though there are probably better options then that
As someone who wishes Ganon was reverted to a pure brawler with no sword, every time I bring that up, I'm always told that cutscenes and artwork are worse sources for Smash material than actual boss fights that involve gameplay. Every time I say that it's as canon as anything done in gameplay is dismissed. Can you come up with a better counter? I can't, and it's rather frustrating when I get into Ganon canon debates.
I don't think he should be a pure brawler, I get that he does punch and kick but that's not all that he does, and it's certainly not the first thing people think of when they think ganondorf, some punches and kicks are fine but he should do more
I think Zelda could have a projectile normal as she's supposed to be a zoner, but I can't really see Ganon getting any sort of projectile. He's currently the most traditional of traditional heavies, and having a projectile would go against the close-range philosophy of them.
well maybe then the problem is ganondorf's design philosophy
Honestly, I find Isabelle is little more than a dumping ground for moves Villager should have but has no room for. Same with Dr. Mario to Mario; why else would he get the Tornado and freaking Goomba Stomp where Mario doesn't?
I mean to be fair i don't think mario ever stomps goombas like that, and the tornado is made up
Yeah, the Links certainly need to be diversified. I even think BotW Link should be more different with more melee weapons, but only if TP/OoT Link is an echo.
why does he have to be an echo?
Honestly, Mario needs to be more "generalized". Cape and FLUDD are severely outdated on their own. Spin (note that Spin was in the NSMB games sans attack function) would be a better Side-B. Down-B can be Ground Pound, and I don't care that Bowser and Yoshi already have it. And he needs the d-air Goomba Stomp from Doc.
I agree with most of this but I would rather cappy be his side b where he throws him and he spins in place before returning to him. It doesn't have to posess people as not all enemies can be posessed in mario odyssey
The bat thing i agree on but a problem still is if Ness+Lucas dont have Fire,Thunder and Ice then how should it get in i mean Porky is Stetching it already (although i still want him) when it comes to Characters adding Kumatora/Paula/Poo seems to much i think
I get what you mean, and yes pk fire and pk thunder are very iconic to the series, I just personally think characters with defined abilities shouldn't be composite characters
 
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One-Winged Bagel

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villager is fine now but in the next game I think he should have a new horizons inspired moveset. Especially since given that game's success I wouldn't be suprised if they pulled a botw and used that game as a base going forward
even then I would rather his up b reference his own game
It's actually a reference to his overall game too. Balloon Fight is one of the games you can play on the GameCube on Animal Crossing. There's also not really a better option, since a Gyroid would completely destroy his air game due to how he's designed. At that point, just add Tom Nook or a second Villager design if you want to completely redo how it works.

I think he should have a ground pound instead of fludd, there are ways they could make it different then yoshi's. I would honestly prefer fludd's hover nozel as up b instead of down b, if i had to have fludd in there, though there are probably better options then that
It's not about being different from Yoshi's. The spin is far more important to Mario than the ground pound, in comparison. The ground pound was added since the 3D games, but his spin is still in most of the games as a very iconic move, combined with the cape as well. They're both a lot more important than the one-off F.L.U.D.D. or the ground pound, really.

Wario on the other hand made the Ground Pound his a lot more. It's an important move to him, and I'm pretty sure they failed to use it in Smash, though at least Wario is not based heavily on Wario Land, but WarioWare's design(and I don't mean the Waft. Gross jokes are an actual core part of Wario's Japanese character. That made sense either way, though I don't find the move that good).

The super jump punch is one of his most iconic abilities. It's literally based upon him hitting blocks from below, hence the coins. You can't get a more profilic Up B, really. Now, Dr. Mario is the only one who really could use something a bit more interesting, but he has like nothing canon behind the Megavitamins, so.

I mean to be fair i don't think mario ever stomps goombas like that, and the tornado is made up
It's not made up. It's literally what he does with the Cape, able to spin on the ground. He uses something similar with the Tanooki suit with the tail attack. Games later on even used it separately, like the spin in Galaxy. It's based upon a real ability.

why does he have to be an echo?
He'd be an Echo most likely anyway because the adult Links have the same bodyshape. If he doesn't have an extremely different moveset, there's no point in labeling him something else. Even Dr. Mario is pretty much an Echo in practice and simply debuted under the category clone, which is one possible reason he isn't an Echo in Ultimate. Ken and Dr. Mario are borderline the same, which the only difference is one has bigger attribute changes. We don't know if attribute changes matter much for an Echo rule though.

Worth noting the term Echo is misunderstood sometimes. Sakurai acknowledges it and Clone as separated things. And some he doesn't even refer to as a clone in many cases, like the ones from Smash 64, namely the final 4 characters were based upon a previous one in the same way as Melee. Nobody would argue that Ness is some kind of clone, but he does use Mario as a base and has a few similarities. And I don't mean stuff like the fanterm semi-clone either way.

Beyond "Same bodyshape", Echo has no confirmed definitions. It's why Isabelle 100% could not be an Echo. Different bodyshape.
 
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Doc Monocle

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My thoughts on Ganondorf;

He does punch in canon, as Wind Waker shows. This is after Smash, sure, but let's note he has OOT official artwork of him doing an overhead punch at Link. This is literally his Forward Aerial. Him punching is not "weird". I do understand the annoyances at him being a clone, mind you.

He does use swords, but never a broadsword in any canon game. That said, it's a neat throwback to the plans during Melee(which is the only sword that works with his legitimate brawler design), but feels awkward right n ow. I think he had a good moveset in 4 overall, and what needs to leave is his Up Tilt anyway. That's horrid. To what, I dunno yet.

Last thing I'd like to see is his Lightning Ball(since it's not about being reflected) as a unique Neutral A, where he can only use it by holding down the Button. This way it doesn't mess with his core moveset. I do like the idea he could possibly reflect it back, but only if it's hit by a proper Reflector(I.E. Fox) first, that way you can work both of his proper spells in. Incidentally Phantom Ganon uses Dead Man's Volley more than Ganondorf ever did. ...I mean, it's twice, but still.

I did see Villager mentioned, but he/she is a representation of the items and tool gameplay in AC. Other than missing the Fishing Rod(which Isabelle has), what is he/she actually missing of importance? It has the Gyroids, multiple items within the games, even a reference to Punch-Out!! via some of the normals, a retro game specifically available on the GameCube version. There's even a Boxing Ring set of items, so it's a straight reference to AC in itself. I mean, if the idea is to switch Villager and Isabelle's Side B's, I'm all for that. Otherwise, that'll need some elaboration.

Toon Link definitely should be using some of the other items, but I do think the specials aren't bad alone, since they're an iconic Link set in general. And he's a generational character. For instance, I could see some various changes otherwise. Like Up B could become the Grappling Hook under certain conditions(like being away from a grappable platform at the very end of a stage, but otherwise it's the Spin Attack. Or on the Ground, it's the Spin Attack, and the air is the Grappling Hook). There's other options to keep his iconic moves and update them.

Young Link is actually the MM one(not that you could fully tell...) as well as OOT, so Masks would be amazing.

Worth noting that Mario actually does use a Fire attack like in Smash later on in the Mario & Luigi series, but that's not actually iconic. The Hammer does sound good. Besides, Dr. Mario has his own variation with Electricity, and the Thunder Hand isn't even on Luigi anyway, so you still somewhat get the idea of the Mario & Luigi reference at that point. Though I do admit I'm not a big fan of F.L.U.D.D., but only cause it's a kind of bleh. If it gave him an alternate moveset, where you had limited water(unless you actually swam somewhere to refill it), it could make for a much more diverse option. I'm not sure there's a much better option besides the Galaxy Spin, since Dr. Mario and Luigi has the classic spins. Cappy is fairly hard to use as a move, especially since you can't have Mario control a character. And literally switching their places sounds like a recipe for broken gameplay. It could be okay, but I think it's likely to work badly for a balanced moveset. That, and isn't he combo-heavy now? It kind of is awkward. F.L.U.D.D. is too, but it's actually good at edgeguarding, something to help finish the opponent off, so it only slightly is awkward in matches.

Agreed on Zelda. Needs her Light Arrows, even if she's not the only one to use them. She also has telepathy and can create/take down barriers, neither of which are shown.

Sheik seriously needs her Harp. She's fine otherwise.


I'll help you.

Ganondorf doesn't use a Trident. He has only used a sword, and at best has a knife on his person.

Ganon uses a Trident, but also has used a sword before(twin swords, as you can see in Ultimate) like... once. The Trident is his actual iconic and main weapon.

Phantom Ganon is basically a self-made clone of Ganondorf, who is far more monstrous(ghostly) and holds a Trident loosely based upon Ganon's.

Ganon is the Pig. Ganondorf is the Man. Phantmon Ganon is a ghost clone.

That help?
(Sorry for the delay; my connection is quite unreliable.) It does help to some extent. Thank you. Personally, I believe that a character does not necessarily need to make use of every specific, canon move; they need a moveset that summarizes their character and methodology in canon.

So for Ganondorf, I think there are some key points to be emphasized and highlighted before a moveset is made around it:

1. Ganondorf is extremely powerful, muscularly and in the indirect things he does.
2. There should be an emphasis on his near invincibility in canon.
3. He is a trickster. So his moveset should incorporate moves that play mindgames.
4. I believe that a character's original appearance should have a strong influence on their moves and playstyle. So Ganondorf... or Ganon, since he looked like a pig, should have projectiles.
5. His basic tactic in the original was to keep Link on the move with projectiles while gradually and invisibly homing in on his position, so Ganon/dorf should be able to move while attacking.
6. His flaw was a predictable approach. Once you saw the pattern in his movement, he was fairly easy to head off if you struck before he reached you. He should move slowly in Smash Bros.
7. His first appearance was as Ganon, but Ganondorf, I think, because of his hunanoid appearance, is more aesthetically palatable, so his moves should incorporate transformations.

So in light of these, I think he should make use of trident and swords. How? For his down special, he transforms into Ganon, and any moves that use a sword now use the trident. With neutral special, balls of energy are held in his hand. He can move normally, and tapping B again releases a projectile (is that what is called Dead Man's Volley?) that travels in a straight line toward the nearest opponent.

Up special makes Ganondorf invisible. When attacking or struck, he becomes visible. Using this move as Ganon sends him into a portal, shortly appearing out of another and tackling the nearest opponent. This would be a homing attack that can function as a recovery if the opponent is not too far off stage.

Ganon/dorf would have incredible launch resistance, especially as Ganon. He would have a special mechanic that enables him to negate all knockback and damage from an attack if he is running, forcing the opponent to come in at close quarters and punish him after he attacks, and not before.

Side special is Flame Choke.

Overall, I imagine his playstyle to be largely centered around keeping the opponent on their toes in any situation. He is almost impossible to camp against and Ganon is very tough and powerful. However, he makes use of physical attacks as well as weapons, and these too would have among the worst start up lag in the game, making them fairly easy to thwart, though he would in general have quick endlag on attacks, especially as Ganondorf, so he is most vulnerable right as he attacks.

I know the moveset and attributes might seem convoluted and overpowered, but I am trying! Besides, if he was low-tier for so long, it is due time that he should be somewhat strongly equipped.
 
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Otoad64

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It's actually a reference to his overall game too. Balloon Fight is one of the games you can play on the GameCube on Animal Crossing. There's also not really a better option, since a Gyroid would completely destroy his air game due to how he's designed. At that point, just add Tom Nook or a second Villager design if you want to completely redo how it works.
I get that there are nes games in ac but still. he could be carried by gulliver or a balloon with a present, there are other options
It's not about being different from Yoshi's. The spin is far more important to Mario than the ground pound, in comparison. The ground pound was added since the 3D games, but his spin is still in most of the games as a very iconic move, combined with the cape as well. They're both a lot more important than the one-off F.L.U.D.D. or the ground pound, really.

Wario on the other hand made the Ground Pound his a lot more. It's an important move to him, and I'm pretty sure they failed to use it in Smash, though at least Wario is not based heavily on Wario Land, but WarioWare's design(and I don't mean the Waft. Gross jokes are an actual core part of Wario's Japanese character. That made sense either way, though I don't find the move that good).
how is the spin more important then the ground pound? the ground pound is literally in every game since 64, whereas the spin is only in the galaxy games.
and even then it's different then the one in smash. And how the heck is the cape more important then the ground pound? It literally showed up all of one time.

I wil say i'm not opposed to wario getting a ground pound aswell, so long as it's not copy paste

The super jump punch is one of his most iconic abilities. It's literally based upon him hitting blocks from below, hence the coins. You can't get a more profilic Up B, really. Now, Dr. Mario is the only one who really could use something a bit more interesting, but he has like nothing canon behind the Megavitamins, so.
the up b is alright, but when you think about it it's not something he really does, he kinda just jumps and hits the blocks, not really an ability, would rather something like a backflip or one of the many fliying power ups

It's not made up. It's literally what he does with the Cape, able to spin on the ground. He uses something similar with the Tanooki suit with the tail attack. Games later on even used it separately, like the spin in Galaxy. It's based upon a real ability.
but it's not any of those things, if they add some galaxy effects or a tanooki tail, then sure, but as is it's made up

He'd be an Echo most likely anyway because the adult Links have the same bodyshape. If he doesn't have an extremely different moveset, there's no point in labeling him something else. Even Dr. Mario is pretty much an Echo in practice and simply debuted under the category clone, which is one possible reason he isn't an Echo in Ultimate. Ken and Dr. Mario are borderline the same, which the only difference is one has bigger attribute changes. We don't know if attribute changes matter much for an Echo rule though.


Worth noting the term Echo is misunderstood sometimes. Sakurai acknowledges it and Clone as separated things. And some he doesn't even refer to as a clone in many cases, like the ones from Smash 64, namely the final 4 characters were based upon a previous one in the same way as Melee. Nobody would argue that Ness is some kind of clone, but he does use Mario as a base and has a few similarities. And I don't mean stuff like the fanterm semi-clone either way.

Beyond "Same bodyshape", Echo has no confirmed definitions. It's why Isabelle 100% could not be an Echo. Different bodyshape.
personally I imagined him having different specials entirely, but given how they handled toon and young link he probably would be an echo
 

One-Winged Bagel

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(Sorry for the delay; my connection is quite unreliable.) It does help to some extent. Thank you. Personally, I believe that a character does not necessarily need to make use of every specific, canon move; they need a moveset that summarizes their character and methodology in canon.

So for Ganondorf, I think there are some key points to be emphasized and highlighted before a moveset is made around it:

1. Ganondorf is extremely powerful, muscularly and in the indirect things he does.
2. There should be an emphasis on his near invincibility in canon.
3. He is a trickster. So his moveset should incorporate moves that play mindgames.
4. I believe that a character's original appearance should have a strong influence on their moves and playstyle. So Ganondorf... or Ganon, since he looked like a pig, should have projectiles.
5. His basic tactic in the original was to keep Link on the move with projectiles while gradually and invisibly homing in on his position, so Ganon/dorf should be able to move while attacking.
6. His flaw was a predictable approach. Once you saw the pattern in his movement, he was fairly easy to head off if you struck before he reached you. He should move slowly in Smash Bros.
7. His first appearance was as Ganon, but Ganondorf, I think, because of his hunanoid appearance, is more aesthetically palatable, so his moves should incorporate transformations.

So in light of these, I think he should make use of trident and swords. How? For his down special, he transforms into Ganon, and any moves that use a sword now use the trident. With neutral special, balls of energy are held in his hand. He can move normally, and tapping B again releases a projectile (is that what is called Dead Man's Volley?) that travels in a straight line toward the nearest opponent.

Up special makes Ganondorf invisible. When attacking or struck, he becomes visible. Using this move as Ganon sends him into a portal, shortly appearing out of another and tackling the nearest opponent. This would be a homing attack that can function as a recovery if the opponent is not too far off stage.

Ganon/dorf would have incredible launch resistance, especially as Ganon. He would have a special mechanic that enables him to negate all knockback and damage from an attack if he is running, forcing the opponent to come in at close quarters and punish him after he attacks, and not before.

Side special is Flame Choke.

Overall, I imagine his playstyle to be largely centered around keeping the opponent on their toes in any situation. He is almost impossible to camp against and Ganon is very tough and powerful. However, he makes use of physical attacks as well as weapons, and these too would have among the worst start up lag in the game, making them fairly easy to punish, though he would in general have quick start up on attacks, especially as Ganondorf.

I know the moveset and attributes might seem convoluted and overpowered, but I am trying! Besides, if he was low-tier for so long, it is due time that he should be somewhat strongly equipped.
I think you're missing a key part;

Ganon and Ganondorf are the same person, but are not both playable characters in Smash. Sakurai separate these versions quite heavily. Ganon is a Moblin-like character who, while similar to Ganondorf, is the core user of the Trident. Ganondorf has never once used the Trident in canon... and honestly? He probably never will. It's not his weapon. He's a Gerudo first, and an evil pig man second. It's part of the curse of Demise. He's forced to be evil in itself. Ganondorf had no ability to use Ganon till the Triforce of Power was brought into his hands.

Not that I disagree a projectile is bad, but Ganondorf isn't heavily focused on them either way. I noted above the issues with Dead Man's Volley. Besides it being a generic boss move and not really that iconic to him overall, it has massive balance issues. Ganon on the other hand loves to throw projectiles, since ALTTP defined him a lot better. He does vary. A good way to put it is both characters throw projectiles, attack physically, and use weapons. But they do it very very differently. Ganondorf cannot teleport, but he can float. Ganon never floats in a similar way. He instead teleports around akin to a Flash Step, but slower.

They should not have fused movesets. They're too fundamentally different in abilities. Pig Ganon himself is a very unique character and better off separated. The only reason Ganondorf should even use the Trident is cause Phantom Ganon, his Canon clone, had one. And it should be that one alone, not the proper Trident which is a different shape too.

I get that there are nes games in ac but still. he could be carried by gulliver or a balloon with a present, there are other options
Those might work, but then he couldn't control it very well, which kills his playstyle. It's designed with "control" in mind.

how is the spin more important then the ground pound? the ground pound is literally in every game since 64, whereas the spin is only in the galaxy games.
and even then it's different then the one in smash. And how the heck is the cape more important then the ground pound? It literally showed up all of one time.
The ground pound is literally just a rehash of the Goomba Stomp. Mario has used the spin since SMW, one of his major appearances. It's a very important move and is about how he's able to hit blocks from the side without using a shell, which the shell is better off as an item.

I wil say i'm not opposed to wario getting a ground pound aswell, so long as it's not copy paste
It's more iconic to him, at least.

the up b is alright, but when you think about it it's not something he really does, he kinda just jumps and hits the blocks, not really an ability, would rather something like a backflip or one of the many fliying power ups
I'm pretty sure the trophy states it's literally based upon the move. It's his first ever game move, one that defined his character. He's the Jump Man.

but it's not any of those things, if they add some galaxy effects or a tanooki tail, then sure, but as is it's made up
That doesn't make it remotely made up. Mario spins in canon to attack enemies and hit blocks. The Mario Tornado literally does that. The animation is redefined, but the move is most definitely not made up. A made up move has to have zero basis in canon. And that's actually kind of rare in Smash. Even Fox's specials are not outright made up. His Laser comes from the Arwing. His Reflector is a Silver Ring being reused(though later games give it a new tech thing while keeping the Silver Ring) in order to deflect attacks(it's slightly different by reflecting instead), a specific ability the Landmaster and Arwing have by spinning. Fire Fox is kind of the only one you can't decently place, since the actual boost is his later Side B. He doesn't have a fire-like boost in the same way. That's one example.

Now, the Cape and how he uses it is a lot more incorrect in the first place. It cannot turn projectiles or enemies around. It's his official Cape by all means, but it works absolutely nothing and has pretty much no basis in canon. That's why it could make a little sense to remove it, since while it's a proper item, it's used in every wrong way possible. Now if the idea is to move the Cape to Down B and redo his Spin, sure. But would it work right the way it is in Smash, as a proper combo move? Probably not, cause the animation is like Link's Spin Attack in Smash 64, not what the Tornado is remotely like. It hits in multiple angles at the same time, something from day one. That's what makes it a unique move in Smash, despite having a very clear basis.

The only moves Mario has that works like canon among his specials is F.L.U.D.D. and the Fireball. That's it. That doesn't mean they're perfect moves, of course.

personally I imagined him having different specials entirely, but given how they handled toon and young link he probably would be an echo
Echoes can have different specials. Just not different bodyshapes. Young Link and Toon Link cannot be Echoes of each other due to the highly different bodyshapes. Hell, Pichu is like this too. Some of the Melee clones can work as Echoes(maybe Roy, but I have to compare. Falco and Dr. Mario are legit similar. The rest have overall body differences. Maybe an argument could be made for that design of Ganondorf, too. But regardless of the possibly ones, Young Link and Pichu are not 1:1 with the others).

...I have to go to work, otherwise I'd explain why Lucina is a unique situation to why she's an Echo, and definitely not a good example of the bodyshape issue. I'll explain it later, though, when I have more time. :)
 
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JOJONumber691

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a lot characters should have a full revamp imo, in fact i'm gonna list em all (in alphabetical order because that's how the icons are ordered)

:ultbowser::ultbyleth::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultganondorf::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkirby::ultlink::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmario::ultness::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultroy::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultwario::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzelda: (okay that's not most characters but still that's a lot)

imo all of these characters deserve much better.

edit: okay not all of these need full revamps, namely :ultbyleth::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultroy::ultvillager::ultwolf::ultzelda: but they still need major changes, and I still think the rest need to be almost entirely reworked, a lot of them just use generic or made up attacks, the mother reps steal attacks from other characters, and the links, daisy and dark samus shouldn't be clones

do they need to be entirely revamped? no but I think they should
Mario and Kirby kind of need to be simple, since they are meant to be the beginner characters, though Pikachu absolutely needs a Semi-Revamp. He's Faithful to his Character, sure, but he is also not that simple to pick-up and play in a casual setting. Particularly Quick Attack and his aerials. Pikachu also doesn't have Iron Tail despite that being one of his signature moves in the Anime, and Iron Tail would be a Perfect Replacement to Quick Attack. Luigi is weird in terms of him being simple to pick up, Daisy needs a revamp most out of everyone here, as she quite literally has the exact same kit as Peach. I think she also needs a new look entirely, like a shortened Skirt, those Stockings from Mario Tennis, the shoes from Aces, Shorts underneath the skirt, and the Gloves are iconic and even out the design.Also she's from a Desert Kingdom so she absolutely needs to be Tan lol. Samus should be PM Samus, Roy should be changed to be considered a Smash Original than an FE Character due to his first appearence in Melee and being the Polar Opposite of his FE Iteration, down to how Heroes uses the Smash Iteration to my knowledge. And Awakening also uses Smash Roy for the DLC. Kirby only needs the Rivals Smash Attacks, a Sliding Dash Attack, and his Fireball as a Side Special. Zelda and Sheik should be able to transform again, and The rest are fine,
 

Otoad64

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I think you're missing a key part;

Ganon and Ganondorf are the same person, but are not both playable characters in Smash. Sakurai separate these versions quite heavily. Ganon is a Moblin-like character who, while similar to Ganondorf, is the core user of the Trident. Ganondorf has never once used the Trident in canon... and honestly? He probably never will. It's not his weapon. He's a Gerudo first, and an evil pig man second. It's part of the curse of Demise. He's forced to be evil in itself. Ganondorf had no ability to use Ganon till the Triforce of Power was brought into his hands.

Not that I disagree a projectile is bad, but Ganondorf isn't heavily focused on them either way. I noted above the issues with Dead Man's Volley. Besides it being a generic boss move and not really that iconic to him overall, it has massive balance issues. Ganon on the other hand loves to throw projectiles, since ALTTP defined him a lot better. He does vary. A good way to put it is both characters throw projectiles, attack physically, and use weapons. But they do it very very differently. Ganondorf cannot teleport, but he can float. Ganon never floats in a similar way. He instead teleports around akin to a Flash Step, but slower.

They should not have fused movesets. They're too fundamentally different in abilities. Pig Ganon himself is a very unique character and better off separated. The only reason Ganondorf should even use the Trident is cause Phantom Ganon, his Canon clone, had one. And it should be that one alone, not the proper Trident which is a different shape too.


Those might work, but then he couldn't control it very well, which kills his playstyle. It's designed with "control" in mind.


The ground pound is literally just a rehash of the Goomba Stomp. Mario has used the spin since SMW, one of his major appearances. It's a very important move and is about how he's able to hit blocks from the side without using a shell, which the shell is better off as an item.


It's more iconic to him, at least.


I'm pretty sure the trophy states it's literally based upon the move. It's his first ever game move, one that defined his character. He's the Jump Man.


That doesn't make it remotely made up. Mario spins in canon to attack enemies and hit blocks. The Mario Tornado literally does that. The animation is redefined, but the move is most definitely not made up. A made up move has to have zero basis in canon. And that's actually kind of rare in Smash. Even Fox's specials are not outright made up. His Laser comes from the Arwing. His Reflector is a Silver Ring being reused(though later games give it a new tech thing while keeping the Silver Ring) in order to deflect attacks(it's slightly different by reflecting instead), a specific ability the Landmaster and Arwing have by spinning. Fire Fox is kind of the only one you can't decently place, since the actual boost is his later Side B. He doesn't have a fire-like boost in the same way. That's one example.

Now, the Cape and how he uses it is a lot more incorrect in the first place. It cannot turn projectiles or enemies around. It's his official Cape by all means, but it works absolutely nothing and has pretty much no basis in canon. That's why it could make a little sense to remove it, since while it's a proper item, it's used in every wrong way possible. Now if the idea is to move the Cape to Down B and redo his Spin, sure. But would it work right the way it is in Smash, as a proper combo move? Probably not, cause the animation is like Link's Spin Attack in Smash 64, not what the Tornado is remotely like. It hits in multiple angles at the same time, something from day one. That's what makes it a unique move in Smash, despite having a very clear basis.

The only moves Mario has that works like canon among his specials is F.L.U.D.D. and the Fireball. That's it. That doesn't mean they're perfect moves, of course.


Echoes can have different specials. Just not different bodyshapes. Young Link and Toon Link cannot be Echoes of each other due to the highly different bodyshapes. Hell, Pichu is like this too. Some of the Melee clones can work as Echoes(maybe Roy, but I have to compare. Falco and Dr. Mario are legit similar. The rest have overall body differences. Maybe an argument could be made for that design of Ganondorf, too. But regardless of the possibly ones, Young Link and Pichu are not 1:1 with the others).

...I have to go to work, otherwise I'd explain why Lucina is a unique situation to why she's an Echo, and definitely not a good example of the bodyshape issue. I'll explain it later, though, when I have more time. :)
I don't get what you mean by "the goomba stomp" that's not a move, jumping is a move, a better way to represent jumping on enemies is to simply have him do damege when he jumps on people. I also think he flat out should not have the cape. it's about as iconic as fludd, and the tanooki suit is more iconic. Also the ground pound is a very iconic mario move, more so then the cape and spin at least
Mario and Kirby kind of need to be simple, since they are meant to be the beginner characters, though Pikachu absolutely needs a Semi-Revamp. He's Faithful to his Character, sure, but he is also not that simple to pick-up and play in a casual setting. Particularly Quick Attack and his aerials. Pikachu also doesn't have Iron Tail despite that being one of his signature moves in the Anime, and Iron Tail would be a Perfect Replacement to Quick Attack. Luigi is weird in terms of him being simple to pick up, Daisy needs a revamp most out of everyone here, as she quite literally has the exact same kit as Peach. I think she also needs a new look entirely, like a shortened Skirt, those Stockings from Mario Tennis, the shoes from Aces, Shorts underneath the skirt, and the Gloves are iconic and even out the design.Also she's from a Desert Kingdom so she absolutely needs to be Tan lol. Samus should be PM Samus, Roy should be changed to be considered a Smash Original than an FE Character due to his first appearence in Melee and being the Polar Opposite of his FE Iteration, down to how Heroes uses the Smash Iteration to my knowledge. And Awakening also uses Smash Roy for the DLC. Kirby only needs the Rivals Smash Attacks, a Sliding Dash Attack, and his Fireball as a Side Special. Zelda and Sheik should be able to transform again, and The rest are fine,
mario and kirby should be simple, but that doesn't mean we can't change some of their moves, pikachu absolutely needs iron tail, my main problem with him is generic attacks like "thunder jolt" which don't actually exist, but yeah the simple route for him makes the most sense
luigi has too many made up attacks, he needs more from luigi's mansion. agree on daisy and samus, but I don't think roy should be classified as a smash original, I just put him there because i remember someone saying his sword can make people explode or something.


kirby and mario should have some of the most changes imo, there is so much untapped potential for moves that is ignored for generic punches/kicks, I have loads of ideas for them though so i'm not gonna put them all here, will repeat that kirby needs beam side special and sword f tilt though.

as for the others, zelda should have light arrows, ganondorf needs to use more magic, sonic needs more then spindashes and punches/kicks. ness and lucas should have their own attacks. villager and isabelle need stuff from new horizons. the links need to have more stuff from their own games, and be better diversified, same with wolf and dark samus. from what i've heard byleth doesn't use all those weapons. jiggs should have some fairy type attacks. wario needs more wario land stuff. the kongs need to have new specials as the one they have are either generic or use abilities like the peanut guns incorrectly
 

Doc Monocle

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One-Winged Bagel One-Winged Bagel
Perhaps I do not have the greatest canonical knowledge to present an ideal moveset, but try this for specials (note: It would be part of a completely rebuilt Ganondorf, and he now has a decent recovery.):

Neutral B: Ganondorf charges a homing projectile that travels slowly and can be reflected.

Down B: Ganondorf holds his cape in front of him. When timed with an attack, he counters, unless it is a projectile, in which case he reflects it. I think you know why I say this.

Side B: Flame Choke

Up B: Ganondorf propels himself forcefully into the air. After the initial propulsion, he is controllable for a few (say 5) seconds, and capable of launching any aerial attack or special except up B, is very maneuverable, and can air dodge. He moves fairly slowly in any given direction, however, and air dodging puts him into a helpless fall state. With this move, he has a great vertical and horizontal distance, and boasts an excellent edge guarding move.

The problem with this moveset is inconsistent purpose. Neutral B is ranged and buys Ganondorf time to approach, but has little value in exchanges. Down B is very useful in exchanges but cuts him out of a move that could capitalize on what should be his greatest strength, powerful offense. Up B gives him a good air game, recovery, and edge guard, but it does not boost his offensive potential that much. Flame Choke rewards reading and does offer him an offensive tool.
 
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JOJONumber691

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I don't get what you mean by "the goomba stomp" that's not a move, jumping is a move, a better way to represent jumping on enemies is to simply have him do damege when he jumps on people. I also think he flat out should not have the cape. it's about as iconic as fludd, and the tanooki suit is more iconic. Also the ground pound is a very iconic mario move, more so then the cape and spin at least

mario and kirby should be simple, but that doesn't mean we can't change some of their moves, pikachu absolutely needs iron tail, my main problem with him is generic attacks like "thunder jolt" which don't actually exist, but yeah the simple route for him makes the most sense
luigi has too many made up attacks, he needs more from luigi's mansion. agree on daisy and samus, but I don't think roy should be classified as a smash original, I just put him there because i remember someone saying his sword can make people explode or something.


kirby and mario should have some of the most changes imo, there is so much untapped potential for moves that is ignored for generic punches/kicks, I have loads of ideas for them though so i'm not gonna put them all here, will repeat that kirby needs beam side special and sword f tilt though.

as for the others, zelda should have light arrows, ganondorf needs to use more magic, sonic needs more then spindashes and punches/kicks. ness and lucas should have their own attacks. villager and isabelle need stuff from new horizons. the links need to have more stuff from their own games, and be better diversified, same with wolf and dark samus. from what i've heard byleth doesn't use all those weapons. jiggs should have some fairy type attacks. wario needs more wario land stuff. the kongs need to have new specials as the one they have are either generic or use abilities like the peanut guns incorrectly
Then you have a design issue. Sure, significantly change these two's design, and alienate Newcomers to Smash, who naturally gravitate to these two. Though Mario should have a Dive as a Side Special, and Kirby should have his Rivals Smash Attacks (which is why Hammer is gone), with a Fireball. Though Tunderjolt and Green Missile are iconic lol.
 

Otoad64

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Then you have a design issue. Sure, significantly change these two's design, and alienate Newcomers to Smash, who naturally gravitate to these two. Though Mario should have a Dive as a Side Special, and Kirby should have his Rivals Smash Attacks (which is why Hammer is gone), with a Fireball. Though Tunderjolt and Green Missile are iconic lol.
I don't understand what you mean, they can still be good for newcomers and have different attacks.
 

JOJONumber691

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I don't understand what you mean, they can still be good for newcomers and have different attacks.
An Upward Punch is intuitive. Mario randomly having a Hammer is unbalanced and not well thought out on so many levels. Sure, it's a reference, but a reference that doesn't mesh well gameplay wise, especially for a character who is meant to be simple.
 

Quillion

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I won't fully quote you, Quillion, but I will note my thoughts; The Cape is still iconic to Mario and isn't remotely outdated. It's an important tool in his arsenal. F.L.U.D.D. isn't utilized remotely well, on the other hand, though a neat idea. It's easy to push out cause the game is old, but he no longer uses that in any later games. It's not a very iconic move and its notability came from being, well, full of options not available in Smash. It's not used well enough for me to think it should stay. The spin is iconic too, much like the Fireball and Super Jump Punch. The Ground Pound, honestly, isn't that iconic enough for a special move at this point. Goomba Stomp, yes, but the there's a lot of times Mario never needed it either way. It doesn't really add much to his arsenal, nor help his game plan. And he more or less has the Goomba Stomp like most others as that's what the Footstool Jump is. There might be a few who can't do it in Smash, but I think it's supposed to be everyone.
How is the Cape more iconic to Mario than FLUDD? It appeared in the same number of games as FLUDD: just one.

If what you mean is that SMW is a more iconic game than Sunshine, well I can't argue against that, but I'd argue that there are definitely more iconic moves for specials AND have appeared in multiple games, yes including the Ground Pound.

I do agree, yeah, the Sword just doesn't work well at all. It doesn't flow in the moveset and feels wonky. It's a full interpretation of his proper Melee plans, since it's the same Sword he was always going to use it before development makes it too difficult at the time, but it likely wouldn't have worked nearly that well either.
Do you have a source on them planning to implement the sword? From what I understand, they were going to make Ganondorf a Falcon clone from the beginning, and the sword in the Challenger Approaching silhouette and victory pose was just a leftover from the SpaceWorld model that they only included as a sort of easter egg.

I'm not sure an Axe Kick fits his Up Tilt that well, mind you. Volcano Kick does fit his physical prowess to a degree, but it's too slow as is to be useful enough. It doesn't have proper armor like Warlock Punch does, which makes it a solid move to use. Assuming the sword stays, it could have him bring his hilt down akin to how some sword users, when grabbing an enemy, use the hilt of their sword to deal a little damage. Quickly tapping A again could have him swing it. This might be a good way to properly use his sword while making his Up Tilt significantly better, and still keeping some of power intact. That said, His Forward Smash isn't actually too bad using his sword now. It's a different swing style but it does keep a lot of the physical impact. HIs Down Smash is basically a new animation but feels very similar to the old one. I think his Up Smash should return to his Brawl/4 kick, and it's really good and feels like it keeps the "power" part super well. Not that his new Up Smash is actually bad either.
Given that quite a few agree that Volcano Kick is a garbage up-tilt for anything but sheer disrespect, I've seen some people suggest that the Brawl Up-Smash could be reworked into an up-tilt instead.

I still think the move's fun though, so I've spitballed a few ideas on how it could be reworked as a move with a "tap" option and "hold" option. Maybe he just raises his hand and charges magic above his head, but if you hold the A button, he charges it up and throws it on the ground in front of him.

Isabelle isn't some dumping ground for Villager. That was just the one item Villager never used, and she's meant to be more innocent and patient as a character anyway. Fishing fits her a bit better as is. Her moveset branches off of Villager since she can generally use those items due to being from the same game, and she gives a lot of items to the player. Though I won't deny Tom Nook using tools fits better. That said, many were changed to fit her personality better, and with a time limit to make the entire game, giving her a much more accurate moveset using a lot of her own abilities and associated stuff wasn't all that feasible. One of her few things is the Toy Hamme, from Amiibo Festival. She should be updated to focus a bit more on what she does work with, the work projects. She's not that bad otherwise.
The toy hammer was in New Leaf. The party popper was in Wild World. The fishing rod is a whole-series item. Fitting character or not, it does feel like Isabelle is getting moves that Villager could have but doesn't.
 

Otoad64

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An Upward Punch is intuitive. Mario randomly having a Hammer is unbalanced and not well thought out on so many levels. Sure, it's a reference, but a reference that doesn't mesh well gameplay wise, especially for a character who is meant to be simple.
how? for his foward smash, mario slams the ground with his hammer, how is that unbalanced or not well thought out
 

JOJONumber691

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how? for his foward smash, mario slams the ground with his hammer, how is that unbalanced or not well thought out
It doesn't mesh well with the theming at all. A Hammer Swing could be cool, but I think that you need an Altered Special to do it in a way that fits well with the theming. But that could get confusing and unbalanced very quickly.
 

Otoad64

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It doesn't mesh well with the theming at all. A Hammer Swing could be cool, but I think that you need an Altered Special to do it in a way that fits well with the theming. But that could get confusing and unbalanced very quickly.
why doesn't it fit well with the theming? why do you need an altered special?
 

Doc Monocle

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I am not that well acquainted to the Mario universe, but I think one way to please everyone here is to leave Mario the way he is now, and include Paper Mario as an entirely different moveset (though I generally oppose seeing the same character twice on a roster). That way, he could have his hammer, and you would not disappoint those who think Mario should remain without any significant, disjointed, powerful weapon strikes.
 

Louie G.

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Everyone bringing up :ultkirby: but not acknowledging his actual most glaring moveset omission: his SLIDE.

1609871347405.png


Kirby has this ability in just about every game he's in, being one of the only attacks he can perform without the assistance of copy abilities. It's such a no brainer down tilt as plenty of characters have been added with slide attacks (Mega Man, Cloud) or updated with a fwd momentum dtilt (Dedede, funny enough). Back in 64 there was at least an excuse because nobody else had an attack like that. Now there is NO explanation for it. It's such a weird thing to gloss over, it was literally in Sakurai's own games too.

I'm actually kind of fine with Kirby's moveset as it is otherwise. I'd like them to implement Air Bullet alongside some new aerial physics to update Kirby in a way that allows him to feel properly realized in a modern Smash setting, but I think his actual attacks are good. Kirby could be a character who just pulls out a bunch of random abilities, of course, but I think centralizing his kit around Fighter and Suplex abilities was a very intentional design and one that I can't really argue against. It makes a lot of sense thematically when you recognize that's where most of his moves come from. Just give him better air speed and a mechanic that allows him to slow fall with his cheeks puffed up. Then you have a Kirby who feels like Kirby, IMO.

As long as you also give him the slide, of course.
 
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Otoad64

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I am not that well acquainted to the Mario universe, but I think one way to please everyone here is to leave Mario the way he is now, and include Paper Mario as an entirely different moveset (though I generally oppose seeing the same character twice on a roster). That way, he could have his hammer, and you would not disappoint those who think Mario should remain without any significant, disjointed, powerful weapon strikes.
that still wouldn't do it for me, but whatever, it's not like they're ever gonna revamp the veterans anyways
 

JOJONumber691

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Everyone bringing up :ultkirby: but not acknowledging his actual most glaring moveset omission: his SLIDE.

View attachment 298386

Kirby has this ability in just about every game he's in, being one of the only attacks he can perform without the assistance of copy abilities. It's such a no brainer down tilt as plenty of characters have been added with slide attacks (Mega Man, Cloud) or updated with a fwd momentum dtilt (Dedede, funny enough). Back in 64 there was at least an excuse because nobody else had an attack like that. Now there is NO explanation for it. It's such a weird thing to gloss over, it was literally in Sakurai's own games too.

I'm actually kind of fine with Kirby's moveset as it is otherwise. I'd like them to implement Air Bullet alongside some new aerial physics to update Kirby in a way that allows him to feel properly realized in a modern Smash setting, but I think his actual attacks are good. Kirby could be a character who just pulls out a bunch of random abilities, of course, but I think centralizing his kit around Fighter and Suplex abilities was a very intentional design and one that I can't really argue against. It makes a lot of sense thematically when you recognize that's where most of his moves come from. Just give him better air speed and a mechanic that allows him to slow fall with his cheeks puffed up. Then you have a Kirby who feels like Kirby, IMO.

As long as you also give him the slide, of course.
I quite literally mentioned the Slide lol. It should be a Dash Attack in place of the Fireball, while the Fireball becomes a Special.
 

JOJONumber691

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wouldn't it make more sense as a down tilt? that's how it functions in the game.
Doesn't mesh well with Kirby's design. Because a complete newbie who gravitated to Kirby due to his Simplicity and Bright Colors would be wondering "Why does this downward move make me move?". So giving Kirby a Sliding Down Tilt would cause several design issues and would reduce Smash's Audience quite a bit.
 

Louie G.

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Doesn't mesh well with Kirby's design. Because a complete newbie who gravitated to Kirby due to his Simplicity and Bright Colors would be wondering "Why does this downward move make me move?". So giving Kirby a Sliding Down Tilt would cause several design issues and would reduce Smash's Audience quite a bit.
I really don't think it's very complicated to figure out. Kirby in and of itself is a simple series and has a slide. If they can understand it in Kirby they can easily understand it in Smash, which is pretty much just Kirby Super Star gameplay but a fighting game.
 

Otoad64

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Doesn't mesh well with Kirby's design. Because a complete newbie who gravitated to Kirby due to his Simplicity and Bright Colors would be wondering "Why does this downward move make me move?". So giving Kirby a Sliding Down Tilt would cause several design issues and would reduce Smash's Audience quite a bit.
why would people not play smash bros just because a downward attack makes them move?
 

Depressed Gengar

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Giving Kirby his slide as a down tilt definitely isn't too complex. Forward momentum down tilts aren't that much of an oddity anymore, and it's just that: forward momentum alongside an attack. This isn't "we should let Mario have access to more F.L.U.D.D nozzles" or "Young Link needs a transformation moveset with the MM masks" or other crazy ideas people have thrown out over the years that would actually make a character too complicated or too much of a hassle to develop or whatever.
 

cashregister9

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Pac-Man does not have his Bounce attack from the Pac-Man world series, Pac-Man world in general has very little representation but I digress. The bounce could be either a replacement for one of his Specials or a different and more unique down air.
 

UserKev

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Can we please give Wario his Warioland move set?!? Wario Ware Wario is an abomination >_<
 

Doc Monocle

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Everyone bringing up :ultkirby: but not acknowledging his actual most glaring moveset omission: his SLIDE.

View attachment 298386

Kirby has this ability in just about every game he's in, being one of the only attacks he can perform without the assistance of copy abilities. It's such a no brainer down tilt as plenty of characters have been added with slide attacks (Mega Man, Cloud) or updated with a fwd momentum dtilt (Dedede, funny enough). Back in 64 there was at least an excuse because nobody else had an attack like that. Now there is NO explanation for it. It's such a weird thing to gloss over, it was literally in Sakurai's own games too.

I'm actually kind of fine with Kirby's moveset as it is otherwise. I'd like them to implement Air Bullet alongside some new aerial physics to update Kirby in a way that allows him to feel properly realized in a modern Smash setting, but I think his actual attacks are good. Kirby could be a character who just pulls out a bunch of random abilities, of course, but I think centralizing his kit around Fighter and Suplex abilities was a very intentional design and one that I can't really argue against. It makes a lot of sense thematically when you recognize that's where most of his moves come from. Just give him better air speed and a mechanic that allows him to slow fall with his cheeks puffed up. Then you have a Kirby who feels like Kirby, IMO.

As long as you also give him the slide, of course.
I am not sure they ignored the slide. If Ultimate Kirby is the same as Brawl Kirby, with whom I am familiar, then his Fsmash features as a reference to the slide... only, more horizontally.
 

Louie G.

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I am not sure they ignored the slide. If Ultimate Kirby is the same as Brawl Kirby, with whom I am familiar, then his Fsmash features as a reference to the slide... only, more horizontally.
That seems like a major stretch to me, it just looks like a kick. I’ve never interpreted that as a reference to the Slide at all, and the animation doesn’t really resemble it. I’ve always associated it a bit more with the kicks that Fighter Kirby uses.
 
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Doc Monocle

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That seems like a major stretch to me, it just looks like a kick. I’ve never interpreted that as a reference to the Slide at all, and the animation doesn’t really resemble it. I’ve always associated it a bit more with the kicks that Fighter Kirby uses.
(Just to be clear, I am assuming his forward smash is the same as in Brawl.) Yes, it is not the best likeness, but it resembles the slide much more closely if you angle it down. No?
 

JOJONumber691

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why would people not play smash bros just because a downward attack makes them move?
Because, it would also set a bad precedent for most other characters. Because 90% of the Roster has a Stationary. Kirby and Mario are the Precedent Characters for most of the rest of the cast.
 

Otoad64

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Because, it would also set a bad precedent for most other characters. Because 90% of the Roster has a Stationary. Kirby and Mario are the Precedent Characters for most of the rest of the cast.
I feel like you're underestimating people's intelligence, people aren't gonna just be like "what? that one makes you move, but that one doesn't? I'm not playing this game smh"
 

UserKev

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The barrels should go to Cranky Kong, they'd be brilliant in his move set. DK doesn't desperately need them. DK's punch is equally iconic.

Pikachu needs Iron Tail.

Ness should get PK Rockin'
 

JOJONumber691

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I feel like you're underestimating people's intelligence, people aren't gonna just be like "what? that one makes you move, but that one doesn't? I'm not playing this game smh"
Oh you'd be surprised how stupid us westerners get. Also, if it wasn't a precedent, then why didn't Mario get his roll from Odyssey in Ultimate then? A Move that would've been a literal copy and paste from Sonic?
 
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