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What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

Quillion

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I stumbled upon this thread on Reddit, and so would like to bring its discussion here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8vweuo
So what are the most iconic moves for existing characters that Smash is leaving out? We know that there isn't always enough room to incorporate all facets of a character into Smash, but some exclusions are more justified than others.
  • Playing the Crusade fangame made me realize that :ultwario:'s Enemy Carry is missing. Donkey Kong has it because... he kidnapped Pauline this way in the arcade game. But Wario uses this move in gameplay in several Wario Land games as well as Wario World! Not having the Power Throw is justifiable, but if Wario had the Enemy Carry, it would be the perfect melding of Wario Land and Ware elements.
  • :ultzelda: has the ignominy of having her now-signature Light Arrow go from being acknowledged in some fashion (as a Final Smash) to not being acknowledged at all. I'm personally in favor of it being reworked as a Neutral-B while Nayru's Love is moved to Down-B and Phantom is cut. But if we need the Phantom, the Light Arrow can also be a projectile normal F-Smash; maybe also with an U-Smash.
  • Just because I know people are going to spam it, :ultganondorf: doesn't have his Dead Man's Volley acknowledged. But I don't think giving him a projectile is the way to go about this; after all, having a projectile and a huge sword would be OP for anyone but a lightweight (see Sephiroth). Rather, I would have his Warlock Punch have a "tap" version where if you simply tap Neutral-B, you get a quick uncharged backhand that reflects projectiles and acts as a combo setup.
 

RetrogamerMax

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I stumbled upon this thread on Reddit, and so would like to bring its discussion here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8vweuo
So what are the most iconic moves for existing characters that Smash is leaving out? We know that there isn't always enough room to incorporate all facets of a character into Smash, but some exclusions are more justified than others.
  • Playing the Crusade fangame made me realize that :ultwario:'s Enemy Carry is missing. Donkey Kong has it because... he kidnapped Pauline this way in the arcade game. But Wario uses this move in gameplay in several Wario Land games as well as Wario World! Not having the Power Throw is justifiable, but if Wario had the Enemy Carry, it would be the perfect melding of Wario Land and Ware elements.
  • :ultzelda: has the ignominy of having her now-signature Light Arrow go from being acknowledged in some fashion (as a Final Smash) to not being acknowledged at all. I'm personally in favor of it being reworked as a Neutral-B while Nayru's Love is moved to Down-B and Phantom is cut. But if we need the Phantom, the Light Arrow can also be a projectile normal F-Smash; maybe also with an U-Smash.
  • Just because I know people are going to spam it, :ultganondorf: doesn't have his Dead Man's Volley acknowledged. But I don't think giving him a projectile is the way to go about this; after all, having a projectile and a huge sword would be OP for anyone but a lightweight (see Sephiroth). Rather, I would have his Warlock Punch have a "tap" version where if you simply tap Neutral-B, you get a quick uncharged backhand that reflects projectiles and acts as a combo setup.

K. Rool's Blunderbuss from DKC2 can do more than shoot cannon balls as it can also shoot spike balls, smoke balls that can make you go in reverse, and the blunderbuss can shoot like a rocket for K. Rool to just run over others with:
 
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Quillion

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K. Rool's Blunderbuss from DKC2 can do more than shoot cannon balls as it can also shoot spike balls, smoke balls that can make you go in reverse, and the blunderbuss can shoot like a rocket for K. Rool to just run over others with:
I'm not really a fan of RNG elements in Smash and would rather that a lot of RNG moves be reworked as charge moves, and that would make our one heavy with an at least serviceable projectile much less reliable.
 

RetrogamerMax

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I'm not really a fan of RNG elements in Smash and would rather that a lot of RNG moves be reworked as charge moves, and that would make our one heavy with an at least serviceable projectile much less reliable.
I would at least wish K. Rool would get spike balls when he's at higher percent or when the player holds the B button instead of tapping it.

Oh yeah, and the biggest missed opportunity with Banjo & Kazooie was them not putting in a Monado Arts type Special where you could choose from all the different egg types from Tooie.
 
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Perkilator

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From what I can guess that not too many people talk about:
  • :ultlucina: is missing an alt of her wearing her ”Marth“ mask
  • :ultyounglink: is missing his masks (Fierce Diety, most egregiously)
  • :ultsonic: is missing his Light Speed Dash
  • :ultpacman: is missing his famous death noise
  • :ultkrool: is missing his Baron K. Roolenstein costume
  • :ultisabelle: is missing her Animalese
  • :ultbyleth: is missing the Crest of Flames
 

Doc Monocle

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What is :dedede:/:4dedede:/:ultkingdedede: missing? In another world, he could have had a running hammer drop as a replacement for Gordo Toss. More specifically, the player holds B after the initial input. While this is true, King Dedede runs forward with his hammer raised high. Upon release, he then slams the hammer down, inflicting severe damage (18%) with a direct strike, and sending a star outward (6%) that is able to be reflected. While running, he has damage based armor up to 8%. I witnessed this in Kirby's Dreamland, and it fits well with the character, in my opinion.
 

Quillion

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From what I can guess that not too many people talk about:
  • :ultlucina: is missing an alt of her wearing her ”Marth“ mask
  • :ultyounglink: is missing his masks (Fierce Diety, most egregiously)
  • :ultsonic: is missing his Light Speed Dash
  • :ultpacman: is missing his famous death noise
  • :ultkrool: is missing his Baron K. Roolenstein costume
  • :ultisabelle: is missing her Animalese
  • :ultbyleth: is missing the Crest of Flames
I agree with Young Link and Sonic, but most of those aren't even moves...

What is :dedede:/:4dedede:/:ultkingdedede: missing? In another world, he could have had a running hammer drop as a replacement for Gordo Toss. More specifically, the player holds B after the initial input. While this is true, King Dedede runs forward with his hammer raised high. Upon release, he then slams the hammer down, inflicting severe damage (18%) with a direct strike, and sending a star outward (6%) that is able to be reflected. While running, he has damage based armor up to 8%. I witnessed this in Kirby's Dreamland, and it fits well with the character, in my opinion.
IMO, that would be better represented by slightly reworking his F-Smash. It could be his Dash Attack, but his trip is already rather iconic.

Also, he's using Gordo Toss in a boss fight now.


Dead Man's Volley for Ganondorf. Energy ball tennis is almost a Zelda staple. May not be in every game, but it's in enough.
But I don't think giving him a projectile is the way to go about this; after all, having a projectile and a huge sword would be OP for anyone but a lightweight (see Sephiroth). Rather, I would have his Warlock Punch have a "tap" version where if you simply tap Neutral-B, you get a quick uncharged backhand that reflects projectiles and acts as a combo setup.
 

Doc Monocle

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K. Rool's Blunderbuss from DKC2 can do more than shoot cannon balls as it can also shoot spike balls, smoke balls that can make you go in reverse, and the blunderbuss can shoot like a rocket for K. Rool to just run over others with:
I played Donkey Kong Country II, and I agree that the blunderbuss and (Kaptain himself) should have many options, but at that rate, it would simply make more sense to make Kaptain K. Rool either an alternate character (like Zero Suit Samus/Samus), or a transformation off of King K. Rool (like Zelda/Sheik).

My biggest desire would be for him to be able to play dead as a replacement for down special. I imagine it functioning like this: When timed with an opponent's attack, K.rool falls down on his front, taking full damage. From there he has standard recovery options, but once he recovers, all of his abilities are temporarily buffed.
 

Quillion

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I played Donkey Kong Country II, and I agree that the blunderbuss and (Kaptain himself) should have many options, but at that rate, it would simply make more sense to make Kaptain K. Rool either an alternate character (like Zero Suit Samus/Samus), or a transformation off of King K. Rool (like Zelda/Sheik).

My biggest desire would be for him to be able to play dead as a replacement for down special. I imagine it functioning like this: When timed with an opponent's attack, K.rool falls down on his front, taking full damage. From there he has standard recovery options, but once he recovers, all of his abilities are temporarily buffed.
Now THAT's a creative counterattack.
 

RetrogamerMax

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I played Donkey Kong Country II, and I agree that the blunderbuss and (Kaptain himself) should have many options, but at that rate, it would simply make more sense to make Kaptain K. Rool either an alternate character (like Zero Suit Samus/Samus), or a transformation off of King K. Rool (like Zelda/Sheik).

My biggest desire would be for him to be able to play dead as a replacement for down special. I imagine it functioning like this: When timed with an opponent's attack, K.rool falls down on his front, taking full damage. From there he has standard recovery options, but once he recovers, all of his abilities are temporarily buffed.
Lol! That's brilliant!

 

Doc Monocle

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I agree with Young Link and Sonic, but most of those aren't even moves...



IMO, that would be better represented by slightly reworking his F-Smash. It could be his Dash Attack, but his trip is already rather iconic.

Also, he's using Gordo Toss in a boss fight now.

So I suppose then that Dedede would be without the running part of the attack, yes? I would hate to give up Gordo Toss or the tripping slam, but I just find the concept of an armored, running, hold-and-release type attack to be so tantalizing!... Perhaps if it were his Fsmash, as you suggested, then he could run while the attack was charging. Hmm?
 

BowserKing

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There are a few things the fighter’s are missing

Mario: his Hammer
Donkey Kong: his Coconut gun (granted it could be an item)
Dark Samus: her tentacles
Bowser: his ability to talk
Lucario: his Bone Rush

That is all, but the fighter's are still fun regardless
 

Otoad64

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mario should have his hammer for forward smash instead of the generic "fire punch"

donkey kong doesn't throw barrels, why? also he should have the launch barrel as a recovery

kirby has no reference to sword and beam. arguably the 2 most iconic copy abilities. personally i would make the sword be in some of his tilts and the standard beam attack his side b, with hammer his foward smash, also high jump should be his recovery even though it's not that iconic
 
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JOJONumber691

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:ultbylethf: doesn't have Divine Pulse
:ultmarth: doesn't use the Fire Emblem
:ultike: doesn't have a Blade Beam
:ultdk: doesn't have the Barrels
:ultsteve: doesn't have Armor, Enchantments, and while Slime Blocks aren't iconic, they would be really fun in Smash imo
:ultzelda: and :ultsheik: should be able to transform again
:ultsonic: is missing a ton of stuff
:ultsamus: is missing a Beam Swap
:ultkrool: is missing a trap
:ultincineroar: is missing some speed.
:ultwario: should have a Cargo Throw
:ultkirby: should have a Disjoint
That's it.
 
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Doc Monocle

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mario should have his hammer for forward smash instead of the generic "fire punch"

donkey kong doesn't throw barrels, why? also he should have the launch barrel as a recovery

kirby has no reference to sword and beam. arguably the 2 most iconic copy abilities. personally i would make the sword be in some of his tilts and the standard beam attack his side b, with hammer his foward smash, also high jump should be his recovery even though it's not that iconic
I might have a 'Quillionistic' response to this. Now, if every character had everything that they 'ought' to have, most characters would be projectile users, most would have weapons, and in general most characters would then have abilities that (in my eyes anyway) in ,Smash Bros., would detract from the individual characters'... well, individuality. Wouldn't you say? That said, those were good suggestions.
 

Otoad64

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I might have a 'Quillionistic' response to this. Now, if every character had everything that they 'ought' to have, most characters would be projectile users, most would have weapons, and in general most characters would then have abilities that (in my eyes anyway) in ,Smash Bros., would detract from the individual characters'... well, individuality. Wouldn't you say? That said, those were good suggestions.
i get what you mean, but if their induviduality depends on them not doing the things they're known for doing then maybe there's a problem with how they're individualized, you know?
 

Doc Monocle

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i get what you mean, but if their induviduality depends on them not doing the things they're known for doing then maybe there's a problem with how they're individualized, you know?
I certainly agree that characters should resemble their home series' portrayal as closely as possible, but with every studio effectively saying, "Hey, wouldn't it be neat if this character (that we designed) could do..." There is simply too much chance for overlap, but yes, it would be great if everyone could use all of their talents without infringing on this limitation.
 

Otoad64

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I certainly agree that characters should resemble their home series' portrayal as closely as possible, but with every studio effectively saying, "Hey, wouldn't it be neat if this character (that we designed) could do..." There is simply too much chance for overlap, but yes, it would be great if everyone could use all of their talents without infringing on this limitation.
well they shouldn't have the exact same moves, like for example just because wario has an inhale move in wario world doesn't mean he should have unless they change dedede's. but thankfully it's not like every character does pretty much the same thing. And I don't think everyone should use all of their abilities, mario doesn't need the superball and mewtwo doesn't need fire blast
 

Depressed Gengar

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If there's one iconic move that absolutely should be a part of a character's moveset, it's DK and his barrels. It's not only the attack DK is known for, but it's arguably one of the most iconic attacks within Nintendo history. At the very least, I can understand why it isn't a part of his specials, since that would be hard to fit in without significantly altering DK's current moveset (unless they make it a limited projectile that requires a passive recharge, like Wario Waft for example). But why the hell aren't they his Final Smash? SSF2 had DK throw barrels for his Final Smash, so why can't real Smash games do that?

There's other attacks that are definitely odd exclusions coughcoughDeadMan'sVolleycoughcough, but DK not being able throw his barrels is leagues above the rest when it comes to glaring move omissions.
 
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Doc Monocle

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well they shouldn't have the exact same moves, like for example just because wario has an inhale move in wario world doesn't mean he should have unless they change dedede's. but thankfully it's not like every character does pretty much the same thing. And I don't think everyone should use all of their abilities, mario doesn't need the superball and mewtwo doesn't need fire blast
Yes, yes. All is well with that notion. However, we must remember that the roster grows with each installment (and that forgets the possibility that they might get innovative and start adding new command inputs), so the uniqueness would begin to shrink, even by limiting additions to strictly favorite moves that smell of propriety to their corresponding characters.

If there's one iconic move that absolutely should be a part of a character's moveset, it's DK and his barrels. It's not only the attack DK is known for, but it's arguably one of the most iconic attacks within Nintendo history. At the very least, I can understand why it isn't a part of his specials, since that would be hard to fit in without significantly altering DK's current moveset (unless they make it a limited projectile that requires a passive recharge, like Wario Waft for example). But why the hell aren't they his Final Smash? SSF2 had DK throw barrels for his Final Smash, so why can't real Smash games do that?

There's other attacks that are definitely odd exclusions coughcoughDeadMan'sVolleycoughcough, but DK not being able throw his barrels is leagues above the rest when it comes to glaring move omissions.
While I agree that Donkey Kong should make some use of his barrels for canonical reasons, and definitely agree that Ganondorf should have Dead Man's Volley, the former is more predominantly (please fact check for me, I may be misinformed) a brawling, close range fighter in his portrayals, and giving him a projectile would create an incohesive relation to the rest of his moveset (unless it were used for a final smash); and the latter, in my opinion, needs an overhaul anyway.
 

Otoad64

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While I agree that Donkey Kong should make some use of his barrels for canonical reasons, and definitely agree that Ganondorf should have Dead Man's Volley, the former is more predominantly (please fact check for me, I may be misinformed) a brawling, close range fighter in his portrayals, and giving him a projectile would create an incohesive relation to the rest of his moveset (unless it were used for a final smash); and the latter, in my opinion, needs an overhaul anyway.
personally I think it should be a short range projectile, he would basically be slamming the barrel onto the ground
 

Janx_uwu

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While I agree that Donkey Kong should make some use of his barrels for canonical reasons, and definitely agree that Ganondorf should have Dead Man's Volley, the former is more predominantly (please fact check for me, I may be misinformed) a brawling, close range fighter in his portrayals, and giving him a projectile would create an incohesive relation to the rest of his moveset (unless it were used for a final smash); and the latter, in my opinion, needs an overhaul anyway.
I think as long as the barrel is slow moving it would keep his playstyle intact while still representing him well. Or they could just copy SSF2 and make barrel-throwing his final smash.
 

Doc Monocle

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personally I think it should be a short range projectile, he would basically be slamming the barrel onto the ground
Now that is more like it! Doing it that way would solve both the consistency, and the CONSISTENCY problem. Good thinking!
I think as long as the barrel is slow moving it would keep his playstyle intact while still representing him well. Or they could just copy SSF2 and make barrel-throwing his final smash.
I give the same answer here. Both ideas, especially if the first of yours rolls along the ground, cover deeply concerning problems. Well done.
 
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Oracle Link

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I stumbled upon this thread on Reddit, and so would like to bring its discussion here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8vweuo
So what are the most iconic moves for existing characters that Smash is leaving out? We know that there isn't always enough room to incorporate all facets of a character into Smash, but some exclusions are more justified than others.
  • Playing the Crusade fangame made me realize that :ultwario:'s Enemy Carry is missing. Donkey Kong has it because... he kidnapped Pauline this way in the arcade game. But Wario uses this move in gameplay in several Wario Land games as well as Wario World! Not having the Power Throw is justifiable, but if Wario had the Enemy Carry, it would be the perfect melding of Wario Land and Ware elements.
  • :ultzelda: has the ignominy of having her now-signature Light Arrow go from being acknowledged in some fashion (as a Final Smash) to not being acknowledged at all. I'm personally in favor of it being reworked as a Neutral-B while Nayru's Love is moved to Down-B and Phantom is cut. But if we need the Phantom, the Light Arrow can also be a projectile normal F-Smash; maybe also with an U-Smash.
  • Just because I know people are going to spam it, :ultganondorf: doesn't have his Dead Man's Volley acknowledged. But I don't think giving him a projectile is the way to go about this; after all, having a projectile and a huge sword would be OP for anyone but a lightweight (see Sephiroth). Rather, I would have his Warlock Punch have a "tap" version where if you simply tap Neutral-B, you get a quick uncharged backhand that reflects projectiles and acts as a combo setup.
:ultkirby: Kirbys Sword ability is missing its his most Important/iconic Ability
:ultyounglink::ulttoonlink: Both should have Swordbeam and Jump Slash
 

Otoad64

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Most of these elements are missing for gameplay reasons. They wouldn’t fit the character’s kit without a complete revamp.
a lot characters should have a full revamp imo, in fact i'm gonna list em all (in alphabetical order because that's how the icons are ordered)

:ultbowser::ultbyleth::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultganondorf::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkirby::ultlink::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmario::ultness::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultroy::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultwario::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzelda: (okay that's not most characters but still that's a lot)

imo all of these characters deserve much better.

edit: okay not all of these need full revamps, namely :ultbyleth::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultroy::ultvillager::ultwolf::ultzelda: but they still need major changes, and I still think the rest need to be almost entirely reworked, a lot of them just use generic or made up attacks, the mother reps steal attacks from other characters, and the links, daisy and dark samus shouldn't be clones

do they need to be entirely revamped? no but I think they should
 
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Quillion

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a lot characters should have a full revamp imo, in fact i'm gonna list em all (in alphabetical order because that's how the icons are ordered)

:ultbowser::ultbyleth::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultganondorf::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkirby::ultlink::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmario::ultness::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultroy::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultwario::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzelda: (okay that's not most characters but still that's a lot)

imo all of these characters deserve much better.
Aside from maybe Ganon, I think they can stand to just have 1-3 select moves changed at most. Even then, I already found Ganon's sword smashes alienating.
 

Doc Monocle

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Aside from maybe Ganon, I think they can stand to just have 1-3 select moves changed at most. Even then, I already found Ganon's sword smashes alienating.
I agree with you all the way up to the sword smashes. I have only played the original Legend of Zelda, but I hear he makes prominent use of swords in multiple future installments, and it would be appropriate as his nemesis is a swordsman. If it is the close range, fist-and-foot motif you miss, then I would offer that his smash attacks start out as bodily attacks, but can be extended (like Link, fittingly) with a second A input to unsheath and flail his blade.
 

Oracle Link

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a lot characters should have a full revamp imo, in fact i'm gonna list em all (in alphabetical order because that's how the icons are ordered)

:ultbowser::ultbyleth::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultganondorf::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultkirby::ultlink::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmario::ultness::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultroy::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultwario::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzelda: (okay that's not most characters but still that's a lot)

imo all of these characters deserve much better.

edit: okay not all of these need full revamps, namely :ultbyleth::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultroy::ultvillager::ultwolf::ultzelda: but they still need major changes, and I still think the rest need to be almost entirely reworked, a lot of them just use generic or made up attacks, the mother reps steal attacks from other characters, and the links, daisy and dark samus shouldn't be clones

do they need to be entirely revamped? no but I think they should
To be fair Ness and Lucas have outside of a attack that the player Names no Pk Attacks and i dont think a Support Moveset would fit maybe give only Lucas Pk Love(while keeping Kumatora + Boney) and maybe add Psi Teleport in some way

I agree with you all the way up to the sword smashes. I have only played the original Legend of Zelda, but I hear he makes prominent use of swords in multiple future installments, and it would be appropriate as his nemesis is a swordsman. If it is the close range, fist-and-foot motif you miss, then I would offer that his smash attacks start out as bodily attacks, but can be extended (like Link, fittingly) with a second A input to unsheath and flail his blade.
Ganon/Dorf uses a Trident more often also The Sword in smash isnt from the Games he usualy has less Bulky Swords
But him punching is dumb as heck he should use Magic for a lot of moves if you want Captain Falcon (heavy) then Black Shadow is a FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more fitting choice!
 

Doc Monocle

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To be fair Ness and Lucas have outside of a attack that the player Names no Pk Attacks and i dont think a Support Moveset would fit maybe give only Lucas Pk Love(while keeping Kumatora + Boney) and maybe add Psi Teleport in some way


Ganon/Dorf uses a Trident more often also The Sword in smash isnt from the Games he usualy has less Bulky Swords
But him punching is dumb as heck he should use Magic for a lot of moves if you want Captain Falcon (heavy) then Black Shadow is a FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more fitting choice!
Thank you, for correcting me (big time, because I prefer the trident idea. I have seen and heard of it, but I did not know it was more frequent). I personally like the Brawl Ganondorf's feel as a fighter, but maybe it would fit more appropriately for Black Shadow (actually, I would almost say that I know so). Finally, I favor the extendable smash attack concept, but you sound like you know what you are talking about, and I have heard similar sentiments, so overall, I recant. What are your suggestions for specific moves if you do not mind?
 

Otoad64

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To be fair Ness and Lucas have outside of a attack that the player Names no Pk Attacks and i dont think a Support Moveset would fit maybe give only Lucas Pk Love(while keeping Kumatora + Boney) and maybe add Psi Teleport in some way
personally I think ness could have moves like paralysis or hypnosis, and he should have pk rockin as a final smash
also ness doesn't fight with his hands iirc, so he should use his bat for normals
 

Quillion

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Ganon/Dorf uses a Trident more often also The Sword in smash isnt from the Games he usualy has less Bulky Swords
Ganon the pig uses a trident, not Ganondorf the man. Also, the Zelda series has largely moved away from Ganon being a trident wielder outside of explicit retro throwbacks.

But him punching is dumb as heck he should use Magic for a lot of moves if you want Captain Falcon (heavy) then Black Shadow is a FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more fitting choice!
That's like saying Falcon's moveset is dumb and he should be a gun wielder while moving his moveset to Blaziken. It just wouldn't work.
 

Doc Monocle

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Ganon the pig uses a trident, not Ganondorf the man. Also, the Zelda series has largely moved away from Ganon being a trident wielder outside of explicit retro throwbacks.



That's like saying Falcon's moveset is dumb and he should be a gun wielder while moving his moveset to Blaziken. It just wouldn't work.
Now I am confused! I should go and see for myself what this whole issue is about. I can never seem to get it clear in my head what suits Ganondor... I mean Ganon... I mean Ganon/dorf more, the trident on Ganondor... I mean Ganon... I mean Ganon/dorf, or the sword on Ganon/dorf, or Ganondorf, or the trident on Ganodorf... He is the messiest character for me to process, even after... I mean especially after hearing so many conflicting opinions. I must get to the bottom of this!
 

One-Winged Bagel

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My thoughts on Ganondorf;

He does punch in canon, as Wind Waker shows. This is after Smash, sure, but let's note he has OOT official artwork of him doing an overhead punch at Link. This is literally his Forward Aerial. Him punching is not "weird". I do understand the annoyances at him being a clone, mind you.

He does use swords, but never a broadsword in any canon game. That said, it's a neat throwback to the plans during Melee(which is the only sword that works with his legitimate brawler design), but feels awkward right n ow. I think he had a good moveset in 4 overall, and what needs to leave is his Up Tilt anyway. That's horrid. To what, I dunno yet.

Last thing I'd like to see is his Lightning Ball(since it's not about being reflected) as a unique Neutral A, where he can only use it by holding down the Button. This way it doesn't mess with his core moveset. I do like the idea he could possibly reflect it back, but only if it's hit by a proper Reflector(I.E. Fox) first, that way you can work both of his proper spells in. Incidentally Phantom Ganon uses Dead Man's Volley more than Ganondorf ever did. ...I mean, it's twice, but still.

I did see Villager mentioned, but he/she is a representation of the items and tool gameplay in AC. Other than missing the Fishing Rod(which Isabelle has), what is he/she actually missing of importance? It has the Gyroids, multiple items within the games, even a reference to Punch-Out!! via some of the normals, a retro game specifically available on the GameCube version. There's even a Boxing Ring set of items, so it's a straight reference to AC in itself. I mean, if the idea is to switch Villager and Isabelle's Side B's, I'm all for that. Otherwise, that'll need some elaboration.

Toon Link definitely should be using some of the other items, but I do think the specials aren't bad alone, since they're an iconic Link set in general. And he's a generational character. For instance, I could see some various changes otherwise. Like Up B could become the Grappling Hook under certain conditions(like being away from a grappable platform at the very end of a stage, but otherwise it's the Spin Attack. Or on the Ground, it's the Spin Attack, and the air is the Grappling Hook). There's other options to keep his iconic moves and update them.

Young Link is actually the MM one(not that you could fully tell...) as well as OOT, so Masks would be amazing.

Worth noting that Mario actually does use a Fire attack like in Smash later on in the Mario & Luigi series, but that's not actually iconic. The Hammer does sound good. Besides, Dr. Mario has his own variation with Electricity, and the Thunder Hand isn't even on Luigi anyway, so you still somewhat get the idea of the Mario & Luigi reference at that point. Though I do admit I'm not a big fan of F.L.U.D.D., but only cause it's a kind of bleh. If it gave him an alternate moveset, where you had limited water(unless you actually swam somewhere to refill it), it could make for a much more diverse option. I'm not sure there's a much better option besides the Galaxy Spin, since Dr. Mario and Luigi has the classic spins. Cappy is fairly hard to use as a move, especially since you can't have Mario control a character. And literally switching their places sounds like a recipe for broken gameplay. It could be okay, but I think it's likely to work badly for a balanced moveset. That, and isn't he combo-heavy now? It kind of is awkward. F.L.U.D.D. is too, but it's actually good at edgeguarding, something to help finish the opponent off, so it only slightly is awkward in matches.

Agreed on Zelda. Needs her Light Arrows, even if she's not the only one to use them. She also has telepathy and can create/take down barriers, neither of which are shown.

Sheik seriously needs her Harp. She's fine otherwise.

Now I am confused! I should go and see for myself what this whole issue is about. I can never seem to get it clear in my head what suits Ganondor... I mean Ganon... I mean Ganon/dorf more, the trident on Ganondor... I mean Ganon... I mean Ganon/dorf, or the sword on Ganon/dorf, or Ganondorf, or the trident on Ganodorf... He is the messiest character for me to process, even after... I mean especially after hearing so many conflicting opinions. I must get to the bottom of this!
I'll help you.

Ganondorf doesn't use a Trident. He has only used a sword, and at best has a knife on his person.

Ganon uses a Trident, but also has used a sword before(twin swords, as you can see in Ultimate) like... once. The Trident is his actual iconic and main weapon.

Phantom Ganon is basically a self-made clone of Ganondorf, who is far more monstrous(ghostly) and holds a Trident loosely based upon Ganon's.

Ganon is the Pig. Ganondorf is the Man. Phantmon Ganon is a ghost clone.

That help?
 
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