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What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

Otoad64

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Oh you'd be surprised how stupid us westerners get. Also, if it wasn't a precedent, then why didn't Mario get his roll from Odyssey in Ultimate then? A Move that would've been a literal copy and paste from Sonic?
because nintendo hates the idea of changing movesets. It took em 17 years just to give Ganondorf his sword for crying out loud! And that was only because of fan demand
 
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JOJONumber691

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because nintendo hates the idea of changing movesets. It took em 17 years just to give Ganondorf his sword for crying out loud! And that was only because of fan demand
Because characters are designed the way they are for a reason, because characters take creative liberties to make them more fun. Also, again, if most of the cast had a moving Down Tilt, then you would have a point, but most characters don't. Mario and Kirby are meant to be the characters who set the precedent for how most characters are designed. Giving either of them something too complex would alienate a crap ton of new players. I think Kirby would be way more viable if he got a sliding down tilt, but it would alienate new players, so I think overall, unless you're adding a More Modern Kirby, then it's a Bad Idea.
 

Otoad64

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Because characters are designed the way they are for a reason, because characters take creative liberties to make them more fun. Also, again, if most of the cast had a moving Down Tilt, then you would have a point, but most characters don't. Mario and Kirby are meant to be the characters who set the precedent for how most characters are designed. Giving either of them something too complex would alienate a crap ton of new players. I think Kirby would be way more viable if he got a sliding down tilt, but it would alienate new players, so I think overall, unless you're adding a More Modern Kirby, then it's a Bad Idea.
yeah but a sliding down tilt isn't too complex, if I was a new player it would be pretty easy for me to understand that some characters have a sliding down tilt and some don't. And seeing as Kirby has a move that gives him other character's neutral special I don't think he sets a precedent, he's just easy to understand. If anything Mario and Pikachu should be the one who set the precendent because they're far and away the most iconic and popular, Kirby should just be easy to use and understand
 

JOJONumber691

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yeah but a sliding down tilt isn't too complex, if I was a new player it would be pretty easy for me to understand that some characters have a sliding down tilt and some don't. And seeing as Kirby has a move that gives him other character's neutral special I don't think he sets a precedent, he's just easy to understand. If anything Mario and Pikachu should be the one who set the precendent because they're far and away the most iconic and popular, Kirby should just be easy to use and understand
Because Inhale is the single most important move to understanding how a character plays. It lets a new player understand a basic idea of how a certain character plays.
 

Otoad64

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Because Inhale is the single most important move to understanding how a character plays. It lets a new player understand a basic idea of how a certain character plays.
no it doesn't, it just gives kirby a version of one of their moves, they still play like kirby. and again, kirby shouldn't set the precedent for characters, that role should be given to pikachu
 

JOJONumber691

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no it doesn't, it just gives kirby a version of one of their moves, they still play like kirby. and again, kirby shouldn't set the precedent for characters, that role should be given to pikachu
Have you even heard of Kirbyism? Sakurai's Game Philosophy? The Idea that both Casuals and Pros should be designed in a way. You notice how KIRBY is literally in the name. Kirby is meant to be the Simplest Character you start with. He has to set the basic understanding of the game to beginners. You usually play a match or three with Kirby to get a basic feel because your eye will naturally gravitate towards him being near the center, and his bright colors in comparison to the rest of the roster. Lack of Detail yeah you're going to gravitate towards Kirby. Any change I want to make to Kirby enhances his concept. Any change you want to make to Kirby weakens the core design.
 

Otoad64

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Have you even heard of Kirbyism? Sakurai's Game Philosophy? The Idea that both Casuals and Pros should be designed in a way. You notice how KIRBY is literally in the name. Kirby is meant to be the Simplest Character you start with. He has to set the basic understanding of the game to beginners. You usually play a match or three with Kirby to get a basic feel because your eye will naturally gravitate towards him being near the center, and his bright colors in comparison to the rest of the roster. Lack of Detail yeah you're going to gravitate towards Kirby. Any change I want to make to Kirby enhances his concept. Any change you want to make to Kirby weakens the core design.
still, a slide is simple and easy to understand, you're acting like I'm suggesting kirby should have some kind of crazy gimmick. Also that is the only change that could possibly "weaken the core design" him doing the beam whip as a side special isn't anything crazy or gimmicky
 

JOJONumber691

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still, a slide is simple and easy to understand, you're acting like I'm suggesting kirby should have some kind of crazy gimmick. Also that is the only change that could possibly "weaken the core design" him doing the beam whip as a side special isn't anything crazy or gimmicky
Because the Beam Whip, in comparison to the Fire Ball, would kinda defeat the purpose of trying to make him less intuitive. The Fireball moves you to the SIDE, because it's the SIDE Special, it moves you to the SIDE! Just like how a Dashing Slide being a Dash Attack is kinda perfect for a character like Kirby.
 

Otoad64

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Because the Beam Whip, in comparison to the Fire Ball, would kinda defeat the purpose of trying to make him less intuitive. The Fireball moves you to the SIDE, because it's the SIDE Special, it moves you to the SIDE! Just like how a Dashing Slide being a Dash Attack is kinda perfect for a character like Kirby.
well now you're just contradicting yourself because most side specials don't move you to the side
 

Doc Monocle

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I think overall, except acknowledging your point about Kirbyism, JOJONumber691 JOJONumber691 , Otoad64 is reasonably correct. I would add that it contributes to the 'spice' of the game if not only there are general ground rules (such as up special being a recovery), but also some moves that defy the template (such as Yoshi's Egg Toss in comparison to most up specials). Besides, the purpose of down tilt is generally to be an attack from underneath the character in front of you, and Kirby's slide does not defy that.
 

Quillion

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I don't think changing just Kirby's d-tilt to his slide would be a big stretch. After all, Kirby can do it in pretty much every Kirby game since Adventure, and its position as a crouching attack doesn't disobey the general rule of thumb with d-tilts.

But I won't lie, I've been alienated by several move/animation changes in the series. Like I said here, Link, Bowser, and Ganondorf were all made a bit more canon, but I'm not fond of upright wrestler Bowser nor am I fond of Ganondorf's tacked-on sword smashes. At least I would accept a TP/OoT Link for an echo.
 

Otoad64

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I don't think changing just Kirby's d-tilt to his slide would be a big stretch. After all, Kirby can do it in pretty much every Kirby game since Adventure, and its position as a crouching attack doesn't disobey the general rule of thumb with d-tilts.

But I won't lie, I've been alienated by several move/animation changes in the series. Like I said here, Link, Bowser, and Ganondorf were all made a bit more canon, but I'm not fond of upright wrestler Bowser nor am I fond of Ganondorf's tacked-on sword smashes. At least I would accept a TP/OoT Link for an echo.
personally I hate melee/brawl bowser, however while i like to play current bowser, I think his playstyle should be overhauled

this is probably going to be controversial, but

I think bowser should be a projectile and ranged base character.

think about it. In almost every boss fight what does he do? does he rush you and smack you on the head? no. he tries to prevent you from reaching his weak spot, wether it be the axe in smb, or his tail in sm64. or just himself in general, he sets up long ranged attacks to prevent you from getting close. So here's what I would do

his neutral special is changed to a fireball, not like mario's or luigi's, more like the ones he shoots in smb and smb3, for his side special he throws a hammer in an arch hammer bro style. and for his down special he sends out either a goomba, koopa or dry bones to attack his opponents.

I know this might seem like a really weird direction to take bowser but I think it works

certainly makes more sense than the wrestler design we have now
 
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Doc Monocle

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I don't think changing just Kirby's d-tilt to his slide would be a big stretch. After all, Kirby can do it in pretty much every Kirby game since Adventure, and its position as a crouching attack doesn't disobey the general rule of thumb with d-tilts.

But I won't lie, I've been alienated by several move/animation changes in the series. Like I said here, Link, Bowser, and Ganondorf were all made a bit more canon, but I'm not fond of upright wrestler Bowser nor am I fond of Ganondorf's tacked-on sword smashes. At least I would accept a TP/OoT Link for an echo.
In light of all that I have heard, I would like for Ganondorf to use weapons, but I just don't see how to make that work with his famously painful, physical attacks, which are plenty in the canon department (I think...), So until I play more Legend of Zelda games, and that probably will not be many if at all due to some worrisome themes, I shall probably default to the brawler motif (with clenched teeth). Also, I agree on the canon vs. character debate, but I would slow down with saying that a tradeoff for more canonical moves would wreck enjoyability. That is subjective.

personally I hate melee/brawl bowser, however while i like to play current bowser, I think his playstyle should be overhauled

this is probably going to be controversial, but

I think bowser should be a projectile and ranged base character.

think about it. In almost every boss fight what does he do? does he rush you and smack you on the head? no. he tries to prevent you from reaching his weak spot, wether it be the axe in smb, or his tail in sm64. or just himself in general, he sets up long ranged attacks to prevent you from getting close. So here's what I would do

his neutral special is changed to a fireball, not like mario's or luigi's, more like the ones he shoots in smb and smb3, for his side special he throws a hammer in an arch hammer bro style. and for his down special he sends out either a goomba, koopa or dry bones to attack his opponents.

I know this might seem like a really weird direction to take bowser but I think it works

certainly makes more sense than the wrestler design we have now
I like your Bowser suggestion. Of the few Mario games I played, Super Mario Bros. is the only one I finished, and it would seem more true to Bowser's origin (I am a strong proponent for moves and playstyle inspired predominantly by first or most important appearance) for him to be a powerhouse zoner that is difficult to approach.
 

Quillion

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personally I hate melee/brawl bowser, however while i like to play current bowser, I think his playstyle should be overhauled

this is probably going to be controversial, but

I think bowser should be a projectile and ranged base character.

think about it. In almost every boss fight what does he do? does he rush you and smack you on the head? no. he tries to prevent you from reaching his weak spot, wether it be the axe in smb, or his tail in sm64. or just himself in general, he sets up long ranged attacks to prevent you from getting close. So here's what I would do

his neutral special is changed to a fireball, not like mario's or luigi's, more like the ones he shoots in smb and smb3, for his side special he throws a hammer in an arch hammer bro style. and for his down special he sends out either a goomba, koopa or dry bones to attack his opponents.

I know this might seem like a really weird direction to take bowser but I think it works

certainly makes more sense than the wrestler design we have now
If he has a focus on projectiles and keep-away moves, he would have to be a lightweight, and that would make even less sense than it does for Mewtwo and Sephiroth. There's a reason why heavies have only serviceable projectiles at best.
 

Otoad64

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If he has a focus on projectiles and keep-away moves, he would have to be a lightweight, and that would make even less sense than it does for Mewtwo and Sephiroth. There's a reason why heavies have only serviceable projectiles at best.
why does he have to be a lightweight?
 

UserKev

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personally I hate melee/brawl bowser, however while i like to play current bowser, I think his playstyle should be overhauled

this is probably going to be controversial, but

I think bowser should be a projectile and ranged base character.

think about it. In almost every boss fight what does he do? does he rush you and smack you on the head? no. he tries to prevent you from reaching his weak spot, wether it be the axe in smb, or his tail in sm64. or just himself in general, he sets up long ranged attacks to prevent you from getting close. So here's what I would do

his neutral special is changed to a fireball, not like mario's or luigi's, more like the ones he shoots in smb and smb3, for his side special he throws a hammer in an arch hammer bro style. and for his down special he sends out either a goomba, koopa or dry bones to attack his opponents.

I know this might seem like a really weird direction to take bowser but I think it works

certainly makes more sense than the wrestler design we have now
Amazing. I actually had the same suggestion for Bowser using his fire balls, as op it sounds. It does seem Bowser is one of the most characters striped away from him self in this game. I would love Smash's Bowser to take full inspiration from Super Mario Bros. and Mario 64 Bowser. I always was intrigued by Mario 64's Bowser fire ball usage that makes them tricky to dodge and live like.
 

JOJONumber691

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I think overall, except acknowledging your point about Kirbyism, JOJONumber691 JOJONumber691 , Otoad64 is reasonably correct. I would add that it contributes to the 'spice' of the game if not only there are general ground rules (such as up special being a recovery), but also some moves that defy the template (such as Yoshi's Egg Toss in comparison to most up specials). Besides, the purpose of down tilt is generally to be an attack from underneath the character in front of you, and Kirby's slide does not defy that.
Yeah, I just think it would work better as a Dash Attack Replacement, while making Kirby's Fireball a Side Special. Also, did the Math. 45/88 Characters have a Side Special that moves them in some way. That's just over half the roster. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of the remaining three characters also has a Movement Based Side Special as well. While making Mirror a Down Smash, Hammer a Side Smash, and either Sword or Beam as an Up Smash and BAM! Kirby is fixed.
 

Otoad64

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Yeah, I just think it would work better as a Dash Attack Replacement, while making Kirby's Fireball a Side Special. Also, did the Math. 45/88 Characters have a Side Special that moves them in some way. That's just over half the roster. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of the remaining three characters also has a Movement Based Side Special as well. While making Mirror a Down Smash, Hammer a Side Smash, and either Sword or Beam as an Up Smash and BAM! Kirby is fixed.
i think needle's mega needle attack should be up smash whereas sword should be side tilt, and even if more then half the roster has moving side specials it's not to the point where having a non moving side special is wierd.


all in all though I feel like we all are prioritizing different things
 

JOJONumber691

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i think needle's mega needle attack should be up smash whereas sword should be side tilt, and even if more then half the roster has moving side specials it's not to the point where having a non moving side special is weird.


all in all though I feel like we all are prioritizing different things
EXACTLY! I also forgot to mention that Sword would replace Final Cutter, which both helps with viability, and sets a precedent, which is exactly what a Kirby Revamp should do. Sword is also an Up Smash because it helps with consistency. I may make it a NAir as well lol.
 

Otoad64

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EXACTLY! I also forgot to mention that Sword would replace Final Cutter, which both helps with viability, and sets a precedent, which is exactly what a Kirby Revamp should do. Sword is also an Up Smash because it helps with consistency. I may make it a NAir as well lol.
I don't like the idea of kirby having consistancy, in fact I want him to be a total mixed bag character that uses a different copy ability almost every attack as I think it would reflect the series well.

personally I would make the ice spin his nair as it is a fairly iconic ability
 

JOJONumber691

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I don't like the idea of kirby having consistancy, in fact I want him to be a total mixed bag character that uses a different copy ability almost every attack as I think it would reflect the series well.

personally I would make the ice spin his nair as it is a fairly iconic ability
I think there should be two Kirby's in Smash. One that's for beginners, and one that's for Veterans. Maybe have the proportions be Smaller on Veteran Kirby to represent the modern series?
 

Otoad64

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I think there should be two Kirby's in Smash. One that's for beginners, and one that's for Veterans. Maybe have the proportions be Smaller on Veteran Kirby to represent the modern series?
I don't think my ideas are to hard for beginers to understand, though if there were to be two kirbys the one repping the classic games should look like this
 

Quillion

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I don't like the idea of kirby having consistancy, in fact I want him to be a total mixed bag character that uses a different copy ability almost every attack as I think it would reflect the series well.

personally I would make the ice spin his nair as it is a fairly iconic ability
That would just look awkward. It's bad enough that Ganondorf is mostly a brawler but suddenly pulls out a sword for smashes. But then we have Byleth, who the developers decided as their gimmick to have four weapons, design flow be damned. Functionally it's fine, but function can't be the whole story here. Pulling out all those weapons just doesn't flow well.

Before you say, "Mr. Game and Watch", his jerky animations make it charming, so the lack of flow isn't as glaring. Ganondorf and Byleth's smoother animations make their weapons feel tacked-on.
 

Otoad64

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That would just look awkward. It's bad enough that Ganondorf is mostly a brawler but suddenly pulls out a sword for smashes. But then we have Byleth, who the developers decided as their gimmick to have four weapons, design flow be damned. Functionally it's fine, but function can't be the whole story here. Pulling out all those weapons just doesn't flow well.

Before you say, "Mr. Game and Watch", his jerky animations make it charming, so the lack of flow isn't as glaring. Ganondorf and Byleth's smoother animations make their weapons feel tacked-on.
I really don't see how pulling weapons out of thin air looks awkward
 

Quillion

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I really don't see how pulling weapons out of thin air looks awkward
It should only really be done when there's no other sufficiently option for source material; even then, just making something up would work better in most cases.

Flow is an important aspect of design, and just pulling weapons out of nowhere, especially if they are serious characters like Byleth and Ganondorf, doesn't flow well. There's a reason why no one wants Mario to use his hammer for even ONE move.
 

Oracle Link

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But what bout changing attacks Cosmeticly for Example replace Cape with Tanooki Tail while Keeping the Move similar in Function!
 

Otoad64

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It should only really be done when there's no other sufficiently option for source material; even then, just making something up would work better in most cases.

Flow is an important aspect of design, and just pulling weapons out of nowhere, especially if they are serious characters like Byleth and Ganondorf, doesn't flow well. There's a reason why no one wants Mario to use his hammer for even ONE move.
I just really don't see how it lacks "flow" I think pulling weapons out of thin air is perfectly fine! Nobody complains when mario pulls fludd out of thin air, and Kirby's final cutter has him pull a weapon out of thin air aswell. And there are people who think mario should use a hammer, in this thread even! I just don't think this is a valid reason at all

But what bout changing attacks Cosmeticly for Example replace Cape with Tanooki Tail while Keeping the Move similar in Function!
yeah but the cape's function in smash bros is wrong
 
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RetrogamerMax

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If there's one iconic move that absolutely should be a part of a character's moveset, it's DK and his barrels. It's not only the attack DK is known for, but it's arguably one of the most iconic attacks within Nintendo history. At the very least, I can understand why it isn't a part of his specials, since that would be hard to fit in without significantly altering DK's current moveset (unless they make it a limited projectile that requires a passive recharge, like Wario Waft for example). But why the hell aren't they his Final Smash? SSF2 had DK throw barrels for his Final Smash, so why can't real Smash games do that?

There's other attacks that are definitely odd exclusions coughcoughDeadMan'sVolleycoughcough, but DK not being able throw his barrels is leagues above the rest when it comes to glaring move omissions.
Maybe Cranky Kong can bring barrels into his moveset if he get's in since he's the original Donkey Kong from the arcade.
 

Otoad64

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Maybe Cranky Kong can bring barrels into his moveset if he get's in since he's the original Donkey Kong from the arcade.
I feel like donkey kong should have it. why? when people think of the monkey who throws barrels, they think of donkey kong, sure it is cranky kong, but it may as well not be, he's called donkey kong in the game. people associate throwing barrels with dk.
 

RetrogamerMax

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I feel like donkey kong should have it. why? when people think of the monkey who throws barrels, they think of donkey kong, sure it is cranky kong, but it may as well not be, he's called donkey kong in the game. people associate throwing barrels with dk.
Maybe. But I would be fine and dandy if Cranky is the Kong rep with the barrels. His Side Special can be him throwing barrels like he did in Donkey Kong in his prime.
 

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I wasn't able to speak much last night. The Cape also appeared(though it's only for Super Baby Mario) in Yoshi's Island, so it's not just one game.

It's hard to say which is more iconic of an item, regardless. SMW being a very iconic game(more than Sunshine) doesn't correlate for an item, so I'll concede that point.

The other thing I wanted to note from recent posts is that many think Mario should use his hammer. "No one wants that" is not a good point to bring up. Just speak for yourself, really. I don't see bringing out weapons from thin air as some kind of odd thing. That's how a ton of games do it, especially fighting games. Projectiles in general are effectively the same point. Mr. Game & Watch has charm, sure, but Link's been doing it for ages too. Bow, Boomerang, Bomb(same with his two clones).

That doesn't mean adding a weapon makes a character flow well. I haven't played Byleth enough to judge. But Ganondorf feels fairly weird. The sword used is the same model from the tech demo where his own model was used. I remember reading they planned to use the sword, but I don't remotely remember the source. The sword's model is fully in the game, not just cinematic, so it actually is among the model pieces. Doesn't mean necessarily it would've been used outside of victory screens or taunts, though. But it was literally made for the specific model, so it arguably flows rather well due to that alone.
 

Otoad64

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I just generally dislike the idea of "well instead of changing this character we just give it to this new character" because that still doesn't really fix anything about the veteran in question, I prefer to think of each character in an isolated environment for the most part. putting in things that work best for them regardless of the rest of the roster and especially regardless of potential newcomers, only time I would do that is when disscussing a concept for a new smash game in general
 
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Doc Monocle

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It should only really be done when there's no other sufficiently option for source material; even then, just making something up would work better in most cases.

Flow is an important aspect of design, and just pulling weapons out of nowhere, especially if they are serious characters like Byleth and Ganondorf, doesn't flow well. There's a reason why no one wants Mario to use his hammer for even ONE move.
It is often difficult to respond to what you say because you frequently say one thing I agree with and one thing I don't, so my response here is that I believe you have the right idea about valuing flow and consistency, but I disagree with the idea that using weapons from unexplained places is awkward by necessity.

I try to think of this in terms of an action film. If there is a battle scene, you might see a character using a particular weapon you know they are skilled with, while in another scene, you see them use something different. Obviously, a video game plays out in real time, but the same weapon swaps could happen, or a bare-handed fighter might pick up a weapon mid-battle, but coding the animations of this for every equipment using character would be time-consuming and unnecessary. So to fix this problem, the 'pocket-time' theory of gaming, as I would call it, would justify to the player why a hammerspace move should flow quite smoothly in virtue, albeit invisibly.
 

Quillion

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I wasn't able to speak much last night. The Cape also appeared(though it's only for Super Baby Mario) in Yoshi's Island, so it's not just one game.

It's hard to say which is more iconic of an item, regardless. SMW being a very iconic game(more than Sunshine) doesn't correlate for an item, so I'll concede that point.
I guess you can say the Cape is marginally more iconic than FLUDD by virtue of it technically being in the first Yoshi platformer. Still highly outdated though.

The other thing I wanted to note from recent posts is that many think Mario should use his hammer. "No one wants that" is not a good point to bring up. Just speak for yourself, really. I don't see bringing out weapons from thin air as some kind of odd thing. That's how a ton of games do it, especially fighting games. Projectiles in general are effectively the same point. Mr. Game & Watch has charm, sure, but Link's been doing it for ages too. Bow, Boomerang, Bomb(same with his two clones).
Okay fair point, but you still have to admit that there is good reason behind the Smash 64/Melee characters remaining fairly basic while they select and design the newer Smash 4-and-on characters to be much more visually and mechanically complex. The 64/Melee characters are those that most newer players will gravitate to anyway, so like how Lords in Fire Emblem are basic sword-wielders and starters in Pokémon are basic Fire, Water, or Grass-types, those characters should adhere to the most basic and traditional fighting game archetypes the most.

That doesn't mean adding a weapon makes a character flow well. I haven't played Byleth enough to judge. But Ganondorf feels fairly weird. The sword used is the same model from the tech demo where his own model was used. I remember reading they planned to use the sword, but I don't remotely remember the source. The sword's model is fully in the game, not just cinematic, so it actually is among the model pieces. Doesn't mean necessarily it would've been used outside of victory screens or taunts, though. But it was literally made for the specific model, so it arguably flows rather well due to that alone.
Just letting you know, I've been scouring for sources saying that Ganondorf was supposed to use his sword, and this translation from the old Melee website says that Ganondorf was last-minute and was intended to be based on Falcon since he was conceived for Smash.

Still, it seems the decision to have Ganondorf have sword smashes is very last-minute in itself, as if they somehow got wind of the "canon Ganon" vocal minority very late into the development of the base roster. Thanks to some of Falcon's and Ganondorf's new animations, Ganondorf would have fully diverged from any other character if it weren't for the ripping of Ike and Cloud's smashes and tacking them onto Ganondorf. And seriously, they take an established brutal brawler, and suddenly give him sword moves? Not a very ethical change. It's a mistake that should be fixed by reverting Ganondorf to his old Smashes by next game.
 

Doc Monocle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 24, 2020
Messages
256
Still, it seems the decision to have Ganondorf have sword smashes is very last-minute in itself, as if they somehow got wind of the "canon Ganon" vocal minority very late into the development of the base roster.
While I prefer the feel of a close range Ganondorf, as I imagine the comparison, I can hardly contest what developers decide for want of experience with the Legend of Zelda beyond the first installment.

Why would Nintendo honor the wishes of a "vocal minority" over a majority? That would not be good for business. I also doubt there is a 'silent majority.' That would essentially mean that people favoring a swordsman Ganondorf are more outspoken as a whole. Are you less outspoken then?...
 

Doc Monocle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 24, 2020
Messages
256
I do not generally care for the idea of duplicating a single character unless they are sufficiently removed from their counterpart that they may be considered a separate character, and even then it is a disruptive thought to me. It feels like it would would be stealing assets away from a player who mains the counterpart.
 

JOJONumber691

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Messages
463
I do not generally care for the idea of duplicating a single character unless they are sufficiently removed from their counterpart that they may be considered a separate character, and even then it is a disruptive thought to me. It feels like it would would be stealing assets away from a player who mains the counterpart.
I just posted my Idea for Modern Kirby in the Newcomer Speculation Chat so yeah.
 
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