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What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

Otoad64

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Similarly to my thoughts on Sonic, I would rather have Kirby take inspiration from his entire series of games, not just the Sakurai-made ones and not just the modern ones.
kirby is kind of different from most fighters in that he doesn't really have game specific abilities, sure some copy abilites are only in certain games but for the most part they aren't just associated with a specific title like abilities for characters like mario or sonic
 

Quillion

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I do not generally care for the idea of duplicating a single character unless they are sufficiently removed from their counterpart that they may be considered a separate character, and even then it is a disruptive thought to me. It feels like it would would be stealing assets away from a player who mains the counterpart.
Maybe they can do what the Crusade fangame does and have certain characters have different "modes" that have distinct movesets.

Otherwise I agree. There should be exceptions for maybe TP/OoT Link, Paper Mario, and Ganon the pig. But for some people who want Wario Land Wario and WarioWare Wario, I think it's best that those two portrayals be composited.
 

Arthur97

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I think Sonic is mostly fine honestly, just replace side special (and change the name of the down one) with probably a boost or something, but I'd rather not add another gauge. I'm fine with him going into a ball for as few moves as he does. In fact, his dash attack probably should go back to rolling into a ball. The roll was kinda important to early Sonic.

And fix Super Sonic, please!
 

Doc Monocle

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Similarly to my thoughts on Sonic, I would rather have Kirby take inspiration from his entire series of games, not just the Sakurai-made ones and not just the modern ones.
The problem with that, which I spoke of earlier, is that if you make every canonical reference of that character a justification for using particular move, then at least eventually, two things happen: A: The moveset does not revolve around a consistent playstyle (e.g. Donkey Kong using his coconut gun), and B: Their will be too many opportunities for too many characters to overlap in their move types, rendering the overall gameplay decreasingly unique for each character and each move included (e.g. If Kirby with his ,flame boosting technique, made it into Smash Bros., his gameplay would revolve less around air play and general, close quarters fighting. This aside, it would resemble Firefox, which would be fine if the majority of Kirby's moves centered around the playstyle promoted by such a technique.)
 

Doc Monocle

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kirby is kind of different from most fighters in that he doesn't really have game specific abilities, sure some copy abilites are only in certain games but for the most part they aren't just associated with a specific title like abilities for characters like mario or sonic
I agree, but I would further that when compiling a moveset for a character with sufficient references, it should (as always, this is what I think) not be move-centric, but gameplay-centric. For example, in the Kirby game I played (I assume the following to be true of most of the classical Kirby titles), Kirby could run, slide, and fly, giving him multiple movement options, yet because of his lack of his own defense moves and ironically slow escape when danger is too close, he would have difficulty getting out of precarious situations. This I believe should be reflected in his Smash Bros. incarnation-- slow airspeed, short range, and lack of repulsor attacks. I MADE A MISTAKE, AND I SHOULD HAVE MULTI QUOTED!
 
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Quillion

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B: Their will be too many opportunities for too many characters to overlap in their move types, rendering the overall gameplay decreasingly unique for each character and each move included (e.g. If Kirby with his ,flame boosting technique, made it into Smash Bros., his gameplay would revolve less around air play and general, close quarters fighting. This aside, it would resemble Firefox, which would be fine if the majority of Kirby's moves centered around the playstyle promoted by such a technique.)
Kirby's Burning Fireball is just a dash attack though. It doesn't resemble Fire Fox functionally at all.
 

Doc Monocle

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Kirby's Burning Fireball is just a dash attack though. It doesn't resemble Fire Fox functionally at all.
If you and I are thinking of the same move (Kirby rapidly boosting forward while surrounded by flames), I can imagine two ways of portraying it in Brawl. The first has Kirby moving in a single direction, and depending on the controllability of that direction, it would seemingly resemble Firefox with faster start up. The second has Kirby moving only in his current direction, but it happens very quickly, and is spammable, which is consistent with Kirby's Dream Land, however, this might lead to balancing issues, so I defaulted to the first option, which is why I said it would resemble Firefox.
 

Quillion

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If you and I are thinking of the same move (Kirby rapidly boosting forward while surrounded by flames), I can imagine two ways of portraying it in Brawl. The first has Kirby moving in a single direction, and depending on the controllability of that direction, it would seemingly resemble Firefox with faster start up. The second has Kirby moving only in his current direction, but it happens very quickly, and is spammable, which is consistent with Kirby's Dream Land, however, this might lead to balancing issues, so I defaulted to the first option, which is why I said it would resemble Firefox.
But Burning Fireball only goes in the direction you're running and is a Dash Attack while Fire Fox goes in all directions and is an Up-B.

Going back to one of your previous posts...

The problem with that, which I spoke of earlier, is that if you make every canonical reference of that character a justification for using particular move, then at least eventually, two things happen: A: The moveset does not revolve around a consistent playstyle (e.g. Donkey Kong using his coconut gun), and B: Their will be too many opportunities for too many characters to overlap in their move types, rendering the overall gameplay decreasingly unique for each character and each move included (e.g. If Kirby with his ,flame boosting technique, made it into Smash Bros., his gameplay would revolve less around air play and general, close quarters fighting. This aside, it would resemble Firefox, which would be fine if the majority of Kirby's moves centered around the playstyle promoted by such a technique.)
I agree with point A, since some characters need to ignore certain aspects just to be balanced out like Sephiroth and Mewtwo being lightweights.

But I don't exactly see the problem with point B. With enough creativity, any move can be unique. Mario and Luigi's up-Bs, while fundamentally being based on the same idea, have different properties to make them different.
 

Doc Monocle

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But Burning Fireball only goes in the direction you're running and is a Dash Attack while Fire Fox goes in all directions and is an Up-B.

Going back to one of your previous posts...



I agree with point A, since some characters need to ignore certain aspects just to be balanced out like Sephiroth and Mewtwo being lightweights.

But I don't exactly see the problem with point B. With enough creativity, any move can be unique. Mario and Luigi's up-Bs, while fundamentally being based on the same idea, have different properties to make them different.
The key phrase is "decreasingly unique with each character and each move." With a sufficiently small group of characters sharing similar moves (in this case, Luigi and Mario), they can still be distinctive, but how many characters and moves can you add before that distinctiveness dwindles to the point of having a file cabinet of variants of the same move?
 

Quillion

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Steve doesn't go "OOF!"
That's Roblox, not Minecraft. Similar aesthetics, true, but different game.

The key phrase is "decreasingly unique with each character and each move." With a sufficiently small group of characters sharing similar moves (in this case, Luigi and Mario), they can still be distinctive, but how many characters and moves can you add before that distinctiveness dwindles to the point of having a file cabinet of variants of the same move?
I guess if you paint with a very broad brush, you can say that Fox, Pikachu, Mario, and Luigi's neutral-Bs are fundamentally the same move because they are projectiles. Probably not a good example.

What would be a hypothetical scenario where we get "a file cabinet of variants of the same move"?
 

shinhed-echi

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I think Sonic is mostly fine honestly, just replace side special (and change the name of the down one) with probably a boost or something, but I'd rather not add another gauge. I'm fine with him going into a ball for as few moves as he does. In fact, his dash attack probably should go back to rolling into a ball. The roll was kinda important to early Sonic.

And fix Super Sonic, please!
All of this.

Although I don't like it, the boost is way too iconic to not be present. Unfortunately it would have to include a gauge, and work like some sort of wonderwing.
Or
They could give him the Lightspeed dash which could be an alternate form of recovery which causes no damage, but it's extremely fast.

-

Little Mac's Star Punch isn't in the game, although at least the KO Punch looks like it.

-

Megaman should be able to charge his Buster cannon when while moving and jumping. They could give him a new Fsmash, and have him charge with A.

-

These are my main beef.
Also, what's up with Megaman still not having his true victory jingle? (1,2,4,9,10)
 

Quillion

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All of this.

Although I don't like it, the boost is way too iconic to not be present. Unfortunately it would have to include a gauge, and work like some sort of wonderwing.
Or
They could give him the Lightspeed dash which could be an alternate form of recovery which causes no damage, but it's extremely fast.
I know that I'm bringing up the Crusade fangame a lot, but the boost is in it, and... honestly it doesn't really work well there. It's hard for me to imagine the boost working unless they severely nerf it to the point where it feels unimpressive (e.g. it's the same speed as his normal running).

Light Speed Dash would likely just be a Fox Illusion knockoff, but I honestly would take that over two Spin Dashes or even the Boost.

Little Mac's Star Punch isn't in the game, although at least the KO Punch looks like it.
I think they should have put star effects on KO Punch so they would merge the arcade/SNES move with the NES/Wii move.

Megaman should be able to charge his Buster cannon when while moving and jumping. They could give him a new Fsmash, and have him charge with A.

These are my main beef.
Also, what's up with Megaman still not having his true victory jingle? (1,2,4,9,10)
I guess that's just the cost of making his specialset not have his buster at all. You win some you lose some. Besides, we already have quite a bit of "charge shot" moves like Samus, Mewtwo, and Lucario's Neutral-Bs; it's refreshing to see one be a projectile normal.

While we're back on topic...

Ness should have PK Rockin' for his Final Smash, and Lucas should have PK Love as well.
 

Doc Monocle

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That's Roblox, not Minecraft. Similar aesthetics, true, but different game.



I guess if you paint with a very broad brush, you can say that Fox, Pikachu, Mario, and Luigi's neutral-Bs are fundamentally the same move because they are projectiles. Probably not a good example.

What would be a hypothetical scenario where we get "a file cabinet of variants of the same move"?
(My apologies for the delay. I was writing up this long-winded answer, but ended up lost, and I realized how late it was, and started being unable to concentrate properly, so I cancelled it)
Define the coin jump to satisfy these four properties:
1. Mario jumps into the air anywhere between 60° and 90°
2. Mario strikes the opponent a variable number of times depending on proximity to the opponent (Luigi is a special case where this number is 1.)
3. The opponent is launched upward and/or outward.
4. Mario descends at constant speed after launching the opponent.

Suppose that in the next Smash Bros., a number of newcomers have up B moves that satisfy the same properties. Using the minimum number of newcomers to exhaust all of the possibilities, each one tweaks the move by a difference of 1° rise angle, 1 strike, 1° of launch angle, and one unit per second of fall speed from another newcomer or Mario. Assuming these laughable nuances were included, the player may not distinguish so well the difference between any two but the most removed newcomers during normal play. Any move that can be called a coin jump would have different figures associated with them, but would fulfill all of the requirements above. The file cabinet comes in when we reiterate a move that satisfies these same four minimum requirements, with only minor differences between them. (I wish I had the 'steam' to give a more sensible answer, but at the moment, this is the best I can conjure.)
 

Idon

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Give Ike a blade beam

That is kinda the Ragnell's most important gimmick.
 

Quillion

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Give Ike a blade beam

That is kinda the Ragnell's most important gimmick.
Same for Roy.

This being said, it would make more sense for Roy since he's middleweight. Ike is a fairly traditional heavy with a sword, so projectiles wouldn't make sense on him.
 

Idon

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Same for Roy.

This being said, it would make more sense for Roy since he's middleweight. Ike is a fairly traditional heavy with a sword, so projectiles wouldn't make sense on him.
Roy is a rushdown character that wants people to be up close while Ike wants to keep people at sword's length. I say it fits Ike more, especially with characters like Cloud running around. Weights were never a determining factor on who gets projectiles anyway, every weight from Pichu to Snake has projectiles.

Besides, Roy doesn't have blade beams, he has remote explosions.

I'd prefer if they removed counter for it, but I'd be fine if it was a ranged counter variant as well.
 
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Quillion

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Roy is a rushdown character that wants people to be up close while Ike wants to keep people at sword's length. I say it fits Ike more, especially with characters like Cloud running around. Weights were never a determining factor on who gets projectiles anyway, every weight from Pichu to Snake has projectiles.

Besides, Roy doesn't have blade beams, he has remote explosions.

I'd prefer if they removed counter for it, but I'd be fine if it was a ranged counter variant as well.
Good point. I'm trying to speak more of their archetypes rather than their weight though. Ike already has quite a bit of range and a focus on keepaway, so adding a projectile to him would make him frustrating to play against.

Also, is Roy's Binding Blade ranged attack really a remote explosion, or is it a sword beam that's supposed to be faster than the eye can see? If it's the former, if Roy had his Binding Blade ranged attack, it could work more like Palutena's Explosive Flame where you have to aim the move; I wouldn't see that impacting his up-close game too much.
 

Idon

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Good point. I'm trying to speak more of their archetypes rather than their weight though. Ike already has quite a bit of range and a focus on keepaway, so adding a projectile to him would make him frustrating to play against.
That's why I'm fine if it was a ranged counter alternative. A niche option that only works when the opponent itself is using projectiles. If it was stuck on the slowest counter in the entire game, I'm sure a mediocre blade beam wouldn't ruffle anyone's feathers. Even if it was a normal slow blade beam like Cloud, compared to him, his kills and he's a faster character on top of that.

I just want it to be there, as a reference, doesn't have to be meta-changing or even good.

Also, is Roy's Binding Blade ranged attack really a remote explosion, or is it a sword beam that's supposed to be faster than the eye can see? If it's the former, if Roy had his Binding Blade ranged attack, it could work more like Palutena's Explosive Flame where you have to aim the move; I wouldn't see that impacting his up-close game too much.
A remote explosion most likely.
It's a GBA game so we can't be certain if it's intentional or just a technical limitation, but there is a sword that does fires a visible projectile so I assume the rest are just remote magic spells.

Not like they can't change it if they want, like they did for Robin's Levin Sword or his Nosferatu.

And yeah, if Roy was to get a long range projectile, I see it as Palutena's Explosive Flare style except just a single hit.
 

Quillion

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Even though it's not an iconic game per se, I'd say it's iconic to the character in question by virtue of it being her only solo starring role:

I remember when Brawl was coming out, I was interested in seeing how Super Princess Peach would inspire changes to Peach's moveset. At the time I was a little baffled that they didn't take any of those opportunities.

That said, I can't really think of how all the Vibes would work. The only one I can think of is using Rage as a replacement Up-Smash.

EDIT: After looking further, I think Joy's tornado move can be used to add to her N-air. I still don't know how Gloom and Calm would work though.
 
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Quillion

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Now that the Mario 3DW + Bowser's Fury trailer is out, I would just like to say something.

Bowser Jr.'s paintbrush is back (fun fact, this is also the first time Jr. has appeared in a 3D Mario [port in this case] since Galaxy 2). But at the same time, he's riding in his Jr. Clown Car.

I know some people wanted Jr. to have a moveset heavily utilizing the paintbrush, and I know some were disappointed that it was shunted off to Final Smash instead of involving it in the regular moveset. But if Bowser's Fury is any indication, the paintbrush and the Clown Car could definitely coexist. Maybe by next game, Jr. could have some paint moves that utilize the Inkling's ink system.
 

Doc Monocle

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Should Link be able to throw swords as he could in the Legend of Zelda at full health? It would make an interesting, start-of-battle quirk, but somehow I think it would look... funny, to say the least, and I cannot imagine what animation he would have while doing this. There is no way he could throw the sword in a believable way such that the sword remains in a constant direction of travel.

However, my imagination might be limited. Does anyone think this would fit well with his moveset, and if so, is there any way to make it look natural?
 

Janx_uwu

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Should Link be able to throw swords as he could in the Legend of Zelda at full health? It would make an interesting, start-of-battle quirk, but somehow I think it would look... funny, to say the least, and I cannot imagine what animation he would have while doing this. There is no way he could throw the sword in a believable way such that the sword remains in a constant direction of travel.

However, my imagination might be limited. Does anyone think this would fit well with his moveset, and if so, is there any way to make it look natural?
In Ultimate, at 0% your FSmash shoots out a beam.
 

Otoad64

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Now that the Mario 3DW + Bowser's Fury trailer is out, I would just like to say something.

Bowser Jr.'s paintbrush is back (fun fact, this is also the first time Jr. has appeared in a 3D Mario [port in this case] since Galaxy 2). But at the same time, he's riding in his Jr. Clown Car.

I know some people wanted Jr. to have a moveset heavily utilizing the paintbrush, and I know some were disappointed that it was shunted off to Final Smash instead of involving it in the regular moveset. But if Bowser's Fury is any indication, the paintbrush and the Clown Car could definitely coexist. Maybe by next game, Jr. could have some paint moves that utilize the Inkling's ink system.
I don't really know if giving him inkling's ink system is a good idea, it would take away from inkling's uniqueness. I was thinking he could use it for some tilts and smash attacks

Even though it's not an iconic game per se, I'd say it's iconic to the character in question by virtue of it being her only solo starring role:

I remember when Brawl was coming out, I was interested in seeing how Super Princess Peach would inspire changes to Peach's moveset. At the time I was a little baffled that they didn't take any of those opportunities.

That said, I can't really think of how all the Vibes would work. The only one I can think of is using Rage as a replacement Up-Smash.

EDIT: After looking further, I think Joy's tornado move can be used to add to her N-air. I still don't know how Gloom and Calm would work though.
actually i've thought of peach using rage as a neutral special if toad were to be added, maybe gloom would actually work as a final smash where peach fills up the stage with water and drowns everyone or something along those lines, calm is pretty much healing iirc so i'm not sure it would work, maybe it could be a taunt?
 

Doc Monocle

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I don't really know if giving him inkling's ink system is a good idea, it would take away from inkling's u
I am a proponent of making characters as unique as possible, so for the most part, I agree with you. However, as has been pointed out to me in a Dr. Eggman support thread, there is a sort of appeal in having archetypes provided there are not too many characters in each archetype. A similar notion could be argued for mechanics, however, I do think replicas in this department should be implemented more sparingly.
 

Otoad64

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I am a proponent of making characters as unique as possible, so for the most part, I agree with you. However, as has been pointed out to me in a Dr. Eggman support thread, there is a sort of appeal in having archetypes provided there are not too many characters in each archetype. A similar notion could be argued for mechanics, however, I do think replicas in this department should be implemented more sparingly.
I get the idea of an archetype, but to me there is a difference between an archetype and sharing a gimmick, it'd be like if you gave another character hero's command menu, only place I think that should be done is with an echo fighter
 

Depressed Gengar

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Trying to cram in an ink-based mechanic while still keeping the Clown Car would still mean basically giving Jr. a decently-sized overhaul, to the point where he'd still effectively have a very different moveset. At that point, if we're really going to go on the overhaul route, then we'd be better off taking Jr.'s current moveset, giving it to Eggman (with minor adjustments to fit Eggman of course) and then just give Jr. a paintbrush centric moveset. Or, heck, even just place Boom Boom as the main character for the Clown Car set, which would even let the Koopalings stick around and still let Jr. have his paintbrush.
 

Otoad64

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Trying to cram in an ink-based mechanic while still keeping the Clown Car would still mean basically giving Jr. a decently-sized overhaul, to the point where he'd still effectively have a very different moveset. At that point, if we're really going to go on the overhaul route, then we'd be better off taking Jr.'s current moveset, giving it to Eggman (with minor adjustments to fit Eggman of course) and then just give Jr. a paintbrush centric moveset. Or, heck, even just place Boom Boom as the main character for the Clown Car set, which would even let the Koopalings stick around and still let Jr. have his paintbrush.
honestly I fail to see how eggman's moveset would be like bowser jr's. I always imagined him in a walker, firing missiles and lasers and the like, maybe even using badniks. and boom boom doesn't make much sense either as his body is even less similar to the koopaling's and him being in the clown car doesn't make much sense at all.

again, I would just rather jr use the paintbrush as a weapon for some of his normals, and it can be switched with a wand for the koopalings.

But if there has to be some usage of paint in there maybe for down b he can create a polluted piranha plant.
 

Þe 1 → Way

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Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (Theres so much text), but Ridley not having his pogo bounce irks me. Its been a mainstay attack of his since Super Metroid, I just wish they’d replace his generic and bad dair with it.

Also, please give Samus other beams. Maybe make it like a Shield Special or something.
 

Doc Monocle

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Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (Theres so much text), but Ridley not having his pogo bounce irks me. Its been a mainstay attack of his since Super Metroid, I just wish they’d replace his generic and bad dair with it.

Also, please give Samus other beams. Maybe make it like a Shield Special or something.
I cannot speak on Ridley, but Samus ,being as projectile-oriented as she is, should have more options. I also believe she should have the ability to angle her shots, as in a demo of Metroid I tried, as well as be able to move while firing.
 

Depressed Gengar

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honestly I fail to see how eggman's moveset would be like bowser jr's.
A good amount of Jr.'s has a close counterpart to an an Egg Mobile weapon that Eggman has used before. Sometimes the similarities are so close that it makes Jr.'s moveset as a whole come off as an Eggman moveset that just isn't used for him for some reason. Some would have to be replaced with something entirely new, but for the most part there's little that would need to be altered significantly.

I always imagined him in a walker, firing missiles and lasers and the like, maybe even using badniks.
But the Egg Walker doesn't represent Eggman anywhere near as well as a mixture of Eggman's other weapons. He has plenty of other weaponry to utilize. Reducing him to using just one machine wouldn't do him justice. It's basically just creating another Bowser Jr. situation in the first place: slapping him into something he isn't anywhere near as well known for instead of what he's really known for.

The Badniks definitely represent him better, but I can't see how they'd be implemented for more than a really small amount of his moveset in either an Egg Walker or an Egg Mobile moveset without just cluttering the moveset up with too many ideas.

and boom boom doesn't make much sense either as his body is even less similar to the koopaling's and him being in the clown car doesn't make much sense at all.
I mean, you're not wrong. I mostly said that just to find a way to keep the Koopalings while letting Jr. free of the Clown Car if Eggman couldn't be an option for whatever reason, and Boom Boom was the most logical option.
 

Doc Monocle

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Reducing him to using just one machine wouldn't do him justice
With this I agree. This is an ongoing problem in my mind, and I have thought of a few ideas, but they are mostly awkward with respect to the Smash Bros. framework. My latest idea:

Give him a changing-moveset mecanic. Every time Eggman loses a stock, he appears in a different machine, with different attributes that facilitate responses to different situations. For example, the Egg Hawk can fly during the whole stock. However, the machines selected would be such that they promote a style of play revolving around tanking, projectiles, and overpowering enemy attacks. They would also be flinch resistant, and Eggman is launched by one of two methods: By destroying the machine, triggering an explosion that launches him; or by getting him to eject. Either way, he will be a sitting duck that you can finish off since he has few if any attacks on foot.
 

Quillion

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Trying to cram in an ink-based mechanic while still keeping the Clown Car would still mean basically giving Jr. a decently-sized overhaul, to the point where he'd still effectively have a very different moveset. At that point, if we're really going to go on the overhaul route, then we'd be better off taking Jr.'s current moveset, giving it to Eggman (with minor adjustments to fit Eggman of course) and then just give Jr. a paintbrush centric moveset. Or, heck, even just place Boom Boom as the main character for the Clown Car set, which would even let the Koopalings stick around and still let Jr. have his paintbrush.
Like Janx said, just putting paint on a few normals wouldn't be that bad. I'd personally just change his jab so that he uses his paintbrush in conjunction with his clown car fists and change his F-tilt to be a paintbrush poke.

It would be on par with giving Ganondorf sword smashes.
 

Caryslan

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I would love to see Samus get her different beams added to her moveset with her being able to switch between the Power, Ice, and Plasma Beams.

The Power Beam would be like the one she currently has and would retain the best KO power out of all the beams.

The Ice Beam would do Ice Damage and charged shots can freeze opponents. Its rate of fire is also the fastest out of all the beams allowing her to use this beam to supplement her missiles as a long-range option.

The Plasma Beam would have the slowest rate of fire, but it can pass through walls and even other weaker projectiles(like Mario's Fireballs), and a fully charged shot can do the most damage out of all the beams, pass through multiple opponents(like Robin's fully Thoron), and does a high amount of damage of shields, making it easier to Samus to break shields.

Samus can freely change her beams by using her side taunt. Kirby also gains the current beam that Samus has equipped, so he has the ability to copy the Ice or Plasma Beam.
 
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