What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

[Quillion]

The issue is that a lot of the things that are missing are things that would work much better as special moves. Stuff like giving Kirby his slide as his Down A is easily changed, but giving him like the Mirror ability would work much better as a special (and even Beam too I think, though I think someone suggested it as a forward aerial which I could see working).

On the other hand, a lot of things that would better work as specials tend to be one-shot or otherwise rarely-appearing moves. Mirror Kirby has only appeared in Super Star and Planet Robobot for example. Like I said here, all of the 64/Melee veterans save Zelda and Ganon have most of their most iconic abilities accounted for.

If we're talking 12 new specials for everyone then yes, some characters would struggle to reach that without making stuff up. But I don't think 8 specials (so an extra four) would be a bench mark for most of the cast to reach. And as I said in that thread to you before, another possibility could be to give them something like 7, but make it free to map them to any of the four inputs a player might want. Simon Belmont actually feels really unintutive to me as his specials are all on different buttons to characters with similar attacks to him, which throws me off.

Still, specials almost certainly get a lot more development time than normals do. Unlike normals, it's (usually) not as simple as slapping an animation on a hitbox and calling it a day; making and balancing the specials will take a lot more resources to do.

As for changing up inputs, it's also a good idea, but keep in mind that the direction is often tied heavily to the properties of the move. There's also a fairly general template where neutral-Bs are projectiles, side-Bs are either dashes or basic attacks, up-Bs are recovery, and down-Bs are "weird" moves.

I think you put too much stock in the name of Mario's old down aerial. Because in reality it's not anything like his actual jumping attacks in Mario games. It is just a really generic down aerial attack based off nothing. Performing a foot stool is exactly what Mario does in his games, he jumps off an enemy and leaps higher as a result. For his old down air to come back it'd need to actually have him bounce upwards like Greninja''s down aerial for it to in any way resemble his jumping abilities in game. Footstooling already does that perfectly. And adding damage to it would be a really easily implemented change.

I'm not putting any stock in Mario's old down aerial. I want Mario to rip off Doc's current down-aerial, and make THAT his down-aerial.

You're right about Mario's old d-air being a generic drill kick, but you're also missing the point.

There's also the counter she has in her most recent game, the Metroid 2 remake. I don't think Samus should actually get a counter, but it is noteable for being basically the only melee move she has in her own games which, I don't think, they implemented into Brawl at all in Ultimate.

I think the Melee Counter would best serve as a parry animation. I don't understand why they didn't do that.

I think adding more Link's is not the solution (custom specials are). I would like to see the Deku Leaf or the Sail Cloth act as the recovery for one of them though. Spin Attack was always an odd choice for a recovery on Link. I don't know why back in the day they didn't make his Hook Shot his recovery.

If they can save development time on customs somehow by making each of the moves similar, it would work, but I'm sure neither you or I want that implementation of customs.

And still, I actually do want them to add just ONE more Link since Link is a different person in almost every game and I'm not a fan of the BotW-based changes done to current Link with no alternative for the original moves and animations.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The Hookshot would have to tether to a stage. This makes it way harder to use consistently than a full out rising aerial move. Spin Attack was implemented well as a concept. It was just trashy only in 64. It's not great outright for recovery for Link alone(it's good for Young Link and Toon Link), but the concept makes a lot of sense in how it's done.

They actually removed Tether Recoveries(as Up B's) outright in 4(no longer in Ultimate) because they're horribly balanced. They're only good as extra recoveries, but don't work on all stages and have too short of a reach. The Hookshot also worked perfectly as a Grab Command alone, since the point was to close the gap. It's slightly off, sure(though it can bring enemies to you in special circumstances), but it still made sense in context of a sdie-scrolling fighting game.

That's the only one I want to point out.

I do think they should've focused on better designs for the items from BOTW, and they could've had a better Grab, but I think using the core iconic B moves is the best way to go about it(it also makes development time easier). I think custom moves akin to Palutena is fine too, but frankly, there's too few without making up super weird ones, so only have 1 extra might be good. You already have some easy ones; Toon Link for instance has the Deku Leaf for Up B, Hurricane Spin for Side B, Ice Arrows for B, and Skull Hammer for Down B to heavily deviate. Ice Arrows aren't as unique, but they can freeze, which changes it up enough. Young Link already has Fire Arrows, and doesn't have as many stand-out options without overusing the Masks. However, BOTW Link could do it easier. YL definitely could use the Bomb Mask for his alternate Down B(and can shield right away to prevent self-damage) for a good enough change. Rest are hard to say, though. Maybe Fierce Deity Link's sword could be an alternate B, using his Sword Beam? There's not a lot of stand-out masks that aren't outright transformations. :/

 

[Quillion]

I do think they should've focused on better designs for the items from BOTW, and they could've had a better Grab, but I think using the core iconic B moves is the best way to go about it(it also makes development time easier). I think custom moves akin to Palutena is fine too, but frankly, there's too few without making up super weird ones, so only have 1 extra might be good. You already have some easy ones; Toon Link for instance has the Deku Leaf for Up B, Hurricane Spin for Side B, Ice Arrows for B, and Skull Hammer for Down B to heavily deviate. Ice Arrows aren't as unique, but they can freeze, which changes it up enough. Young Link already has Fire Arrows, and doesn't have as many stand-out options without overusing the Masks. However, BOTW Link could do it easier. YL definitely could use the Bomb Mask for his alternate Down B(and can shield right away to prevent self-damage) for a good enough change. Rest are hard to say, though. Maybe Fierce Deity Link's sword could be an alternate B, using his Sword Beam? There's not a lot of stand-out masks that aren't outright transformations. :/

I know a lot of people want Young Link to transform into his other forms via Down-B, but what if they were just limited to either a single special or normal? I think the easiest option could be Zora Fin Slash for side smash, Goron Pound for Down Smash, and Deku Flowers for Up-Smash. That said, it could also work if Zora Boomerangs was Side-B, Goron Roll/Pound was Down-B, and Deku Flowers was Up-B, while keeping arrows as a recurring motif among all the Links.

On another note, what do you mean for "better designs" for the items from BotW? Do you mean the same thing as me in terms of wishing he had more melee weapons for his normals?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I know a lot of people want Young Link to transform into his other forms via Down-B, but what if they were just limited to either a single special or normal? I think the easiest option could be Zora Fin Slash for side smash, Goron Pound for Down Smash, and Deku Flowers for Up-Smash. That said, it could also work if Zora Boomerangs was Side-B, Goron Roll/Pound was Down-B, and Deku Flowers was Up-B, while keeping arrows as a recurring motif among all the Links.

On another note, what do you mean for "better designs" for the items from BotW? Do you mean the same thing as me in terms of wishing he had more melee weapons for his normals?

It wouldn't work either. That's a completely new model for a single attack. Now him using the designs of the Zora Blade for his Boomerang would be fine. But you kind of have to go a very awkward route for using the plantcopter for the Up B. That makes little sense. There's only so much you can do without massive model changing. It's why even the smallest model change is either a Final Smash summon(Landmaster, Giga Bowser, Giga Mac, etc.) or something fairly simple like Pac-Man's.

No, I mean like he could use a cooler Boomerang design than the one shown(might be difficult). His Grab would be way better at having range by using his magnetic ability. The only ones done well are Ancient Arrow(and only cause it's a good weapon) and the new Bombs. The rest don't stand out or feel that great.

 

[Quillion]

It wouldn't work either. That's a completely new model for a single attack. Now him using the designs of the Zora Blade for his Boomerang would be fine. But you kind of have to go a very awkward route for using the plantcopter for the Up B. That makes little sense. There's only so much you can do without massive model changing. It's why even the smallest model change is either a Final Smash summon(Landmaster, Giga Bowser, Giga Mac, etc.) or something fairly simple like Pac-Man's.

To be fair there is the Inkling's run animation, though I actually agree and wish the squid form was a roll a la Samus's instead of looking weird as it is.

No, I mean like he could use a cooler Boomerang design than the one shown(might be difficult). His Grab would be way better at having range by using his magnetic ability. The only ones done well are Ancient Arrow(and only cause it's a good weapon) and the new Bombs. The rest don't stand out or feel that great.

There's a problem with the Boomerang model choice, and it is that there aren't that many choices to begin with (Korok Boomerang, Lizal Boomerang series, Giant Boomerang, and Lizalfos Arm), and the other ones are rather flawed, as the Lizal Boomerangs and Lizalfos Arm are more associated with enemies while the Giant Boomerang is too big to replace the (Gale) Boomerang.

I definitely would've liked a better bow than the lowly Traveler's Bow, though. No, I don't care that it looks the closest to the "classic" bows from previous Zelda games; a Knight's Bow or Royal Bow would've been sweet.

And again, I wish BotW Link had more melee weapons for his normals; Byleth is a good concept of that working. I honestly think the runes would've been too awkward for moveset potential, but at least the melee weapons don't have that problem.

 

[Jotari]

On the other hand, a lot of things that would better work as specials tend to be one-shot or otherwise rarely-appearing moves. Mirror Kirby has only appeared in Super Star and Planet Robobot for example. Like I said here, all of the 64/Melee veterans save Zelda and Ganon have most of their most iconic abilities accounted for.

So long as she lacks an ice beam, I would keep Samus on that list with Zelda and Ganondorf. Marth lacking the Shield of Seals in any way is also a pretty big omission (and in fact he lacks pretty much all traits that have been given to him throughout the series with the exception of his tipper somewhat referencing rapier's armoured effectiveness, most of his attacks comes from unrelated characters in the Jugdral games). Though Fire Emblem's combat animations being somewhat generic means you could get away with a lot of references for Marth if you just change some of the names of his attacks. Like calling Shield Breaker Armourslayer instead, or Dancing Blade Brave Sword. Overall I'd have to disagree that most of the 64/Melee veterans have their most iconic abilities. Most of the citations in this thread regard characters from the first two games.

Still, specials almost certainly get a lot more development time than normals do. Unlike normals, it's (usually) not as simple as slapping an animation on a hitbox and calling it a day; making and balancing the specials will take a lot more resources to do.

Oh it would of course take a lot more work. But going into the next game I think something like that is warranted. Because the roster is so goddamn big now, I think doubling down on the existing characters rather than adding over a dozen new comers would be a smarter move.

As for changing up inputs, it's also a good idea, but keep in mind that the direction is often tied heavily to the properties of the move. There's also a fairly general template where neutral-Bs are projectiles, side-Bs are either dashes or basic attacks, up-Bs are recovery, and down-Bs are "weird" moves.

Yeah, but that's just is, there are standard trends, but there are also loads of exceptions to said trends. Counters are always a down special, unless you're Peach. High speed attacks are always a side special...unless you're Jigglypuff. Generally speaking I don't think the idea of up, side, neutral and down specials is a bad one for design. It gives pretty defined roles and easy to create ideas for characters. But at the same time I don't think further customization is a bad aspect for any game. X and Y work really good as jump buttons in this game, but for the people who want it, the option is there to make A the jump button.

I'm not putting any stock in Mario's old down aerial. I want Mario to rip off Doc's current down-aerial, and make THAT his down-aerial.

You're right about Mario's old d-air being a generic drill kick, but you're also missing the point.

My point is that no down aerial would be able to replicate Mario's jumping abilities more than the footstool already would if it dealt damage.

The Hookshot would have to tether to a stage. This makes it way harder to use consistently than a full out rising aerial move. Spin Attack was implemented well as a concept. It was just trashy only in 64. It's not great outright for recovery for Link alone(it's good for Young Link and Toon Link), but the concept makes a lot of sense in how it's done.

They actually removed Tether Recoveries(as Up B's) outright in 4(no longer in Ultimate) because they're horribly balanced. They're only good as extra recoveries, but don't work on all stages and have too short of a reach. The Hookshot also worked perfectly as a Grab Command alone, since the point was to close the gap. It's slightly off, sure(though it can bring enemies to you in special circumstances), but it still made sense in context of a sdie-scrolling fighting game.

Oh I don't want to suggest I think it was a bad idea. After all, Link still did have his tether potential with the hook shot (even though it's pretty short). My point was more how it was a bit of a weird choice to go with back in 1999. I am glad they did though. That being said now with three Links I think they could remove it on at least one of them.

I do think they should've focused on better designs for the items from BOTW, and they could've had a better Grab, but I think using the core iconic B moves is the best way to go about it(it also makes development time easier). I think custom moves akin to Palutena is fine too, but frankly, there's too few without making up super weird ones, so only have 1 extra might be good. You already have some easy ones; Toon Link for instance has the Deku Leaf for Up B, Hurricane Spin for Side B, Ice Arrows for B, and Skull Hammer for Down B to heavily deviate. Ice Arrows aren't as unique, but they can freeze, which changes it up enough. Young Link already has Fire Arrows, and doesn't have as many stand-out options without overusing the Masks. However, BOTW Link could do it easier. YL definitely could use the Bomb Mask for his alternate Down B(and can shield right away to prevent self-damage) for a good enough change. Rest are hard to say, though. Maybe Fierce Deity Link's sword could be an alternate B, using his Sword Beam? There's not a lot of stand-out masks that aren't outright transformations. :/

Young Link has more standout options without resorting to masks I think. Deku Sticks, Slingshot, Bomb Chu and Deku Nuts are all things he can do in Ocarina of Time (though Bomb Chu and Deku Nuts are items already, that doesn't stop Diddy though). You can also pull from non Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask games where Link is still generally young. Both the Oracle games have some pretty interesting items and the Pegasus Boots are a pretty recurring element in Zelda that isn't in any of the movesets. Though if non Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask games are completely off limits, there's also the fact that none of the Links actually use their magical instruments either, with the exception of a taunt on Toon LInk. There's a whole host of abilities you could give Young Link by simply having him play the Ocarina. As I mentioned earlier all the Link's lack the mirror shield too.

It wouldn't work either. That's a completely new model for a single attack. Now him using the designs of the Zora Blade for his Boomerang would be fine. But you kind of have to go a very awkward route for using the plantcopter for the Up B. That makes little sense. There's only so much you can do without massive model changing. It's why even the smallest model change is either a Final Smash summon(Landmaster, Giga Bowser, Giga Mac, etc.) or something fairly simple like Pac-Man's.

No, I mean like he could use a cooler Boomerang design than the one shown(might be difficult). His Grab would be way better at having range by using his magnetic ability. The only ones done well are Ancient Arrow(and only cause it's a good weapon) and the new Bombs. The rest don't stand out or feel that great.

Well there is also Zelda's Phantom too. Though that's just one attack on her rather than every special.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh I don't want to suggest I think it was a bad idea. After all, Link still did have his tether potential with the hook shot (even though it's pretty short). My point was more how it was a bit of a weird choice to go with back in 1999. I am glad they did though. That being said now with three Links I think they could remove it on at least one of them.

It doesn't help that every single one of them has it as an iconic move anyway. I think it's better to go the custom route like before.

Young Link has more standout options without resorting to masks I think. Deku Sticks, Slingshot, Bomb Chu and Deku Nuts are all things he can do in Ocarina of Time (though Bomb Chu and Deku Nuts are items already, that doesn't stop Diddy though). You can also pull from non Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask games where Link is still generally young. Both the Oracle games have some pretty interesting items and the Pegasus Boots are a pretty recurring element in Zelda that isn't in any of the movesets. Though if non Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask games are completely off limits, there's also the fact that none of the Links actually use their magical instruments either, with the exception of a taunt on Toon LInk. There's a whole host of abilities you could give Young Link by simply having him play the Ocarina. As I mentioned earlier all the Link's lack the mirror shield too.

I'd say the Mirror Shield could work well for a costume, but not as an actual gameplay element. It should be at least among Young Link or Toon Link's costumes, since they both have one respectively. Link would've made sense in his OOT design otherwise(that, and he's loosely based upon the general classic Links). Young Link is meant to be from OOT/MM only. Toon Link is just the Toon games(somewhat Four Swords/Minish Cap, but pretty much WW/PH/ST). They clearly have some neat options.

I'll note some ideas for the Deku Stick down below too. I feel the Bombchu would only work as a Custom, but I think the Bomb Mask is more notable for Young Link. I'm pretty sure Toon Link can use the Bombchu in a game at least once, so that's a good Custom for him instead. Also, I spoke of the Skull Hammer, but that'd be a great new Smash Attack for TL.

Well there is also Zelda's Phantom too. Though that's just one attack on her rather than every special.

Pretty much. It's a one-shot thing. Even then, that took a lot of extra work to make, which says a lot for such a simple move.

Quillion Agreed on the Boomerang issue. I think the Traveler's Bow is fine, since Link still represents the general Links, not just BOTW(not saying it's the coolest design ever). The Upthrust is there too, since the first Smash game(in fact, only the Downthrust has reappeared in later games as an option, though only Young Link can't use it among the current ones in Smash in some way. Toon Link has his Minish Cap variation, Link already had it available in SS and TP, though I don't know if it's in BOTW). Arguably they could change up some of the aerials too. The Deku Stick could actually work well as a Dash Attack or to replace his Upthrust/Downthrust(with it even breaking each time to make it look more interesting. And possibly a bit of splash damage, since the broken piece flies out, giving him a unique niche).

 

[Quillion]

since Link still represents the general Links, not just BOTW(not saying it's the coolest design ever).

See, that's my issue right there. I can see that they were caught between a rock and a hard place with the design of Link in Ultimate. They clearly wanted some kind of BotW representation to go along with the "each Zelda character is a different game" deal, but they also had to take into account how much Link's moveset did or didn't fit the BotW incarnation.

They attempted to compromise, and I admit it seems like many accepted it. But not me. They went both too far and not enough.

• Too far because Link is now a righty, he lost his hookshot, and he can produce pickupable arrows.
• Not enough because Link can't make use of his newfangled melee weapons nor the Champion abilities. I can give him not having any of the Runes aside from bombs though since I stand by that they wouldn't work in Ultimate.

This is why a TP/OoT "Classic Link" echo would've worked, since they're both distinct characters from BotW Link yet they would retain something resembling the Melee/Brawl/Smash 4 moveset while leaving BotW Link as an alternative. I really liked BotW, don't get me wrong, but in my opinion, BotW Link is just too distinct from the others to represent both himself and general Link at the same time.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

See, that's my issue right there. I can see that they were caught between a rock and a hard place with the design of Link in Ultimate. They clearly wanted some kind of BotW representation to go along with the "each Zelda character is a different game" deal, but they also had to take into account how much Link's moveset did or didn't fit the BotW incarnation.

They attempted to compromise, and I admit it seems like many accepted it. But not me. They went both too far and not enough.

• Too far because Link is now a righty, he lost his hookshot, and he can produce pickupable arrows.
• Not enough because Link can't make use of his newfangled melee weapons nor the Champion abilities. I can give him not having any of the Runes aside from bombs though since I stand by that they wouldn't work in Ultimate.

This is why a TP/OoT "Classic Link" echo would've worked, since they're both distinct characters from BotW Link yet they would retain something resembling the Melee/Brawl/Smash 4 moveset while leaving BotW Link as an alternative. I really liked BotW, don't get me wrong, but in my opinion, BotW Link is just too distinct from the others to represent both himself and general Link at the same time.

Keep in mind Link is a righty due to a controls thing in later games. He's ambidextrous is most of the 2D games fur sprite reasons, but he's meant to be somewhat of an avatar too, so it doesn't really change much in the long run.

Also, it made sense to update him that way cause they're reusing the BOTW model. It's just way faster.

Also, honestly? I don't find the Champion abilities a good idea for Link or Zelda at all. Just make a new character at that point. If the Champions aren't going to be playable(which considering how they're all of equal importance even after Age of Calamity...), then they don't need this kind of special representation. If you can't throw them into the moveset without massively changing Link, it's not that big of a deal. Like, you can easily do Daruk's Protection via recoloring the Bubble Shield, but that's... it? Maybe? I don't think the others would work as simplistic changes. All Link really lost was his old Final Smash and his Hookshot, which being we have two other Links with a Hookshot, isn't that big of a deal(never mind the same Final Smash). I feel they struck a fair balance, whiel not alienating other players.

That, and there's not really a good name for another take on Link either. I'm not saying he represents BOTW well either. But I am saying they struck a good balance between old and new in this case. Much like TP Link's Gale Boomerang heavily changed up his strategies, they did so again. He's not too different. It's also safe to say having 4 Links(the exception possibly being Wolf Link) would not go over well. That, and BOTW Link is just another Adult Link. TP Link and OOT Link already set the precedent by that point that it's always been a character who is going to represent more than one game/era for the core Link. It's too late to try and divide them up. The two child versions are also special clone situations(Toon Link actually was created using Young Link's files, but traditionally keeps the same moveset(mostly) as Link like most clones do. Echoes are... more odd and have their own set of rules) and already divide up the differences well enough. Of course Young Link is less popular because he feels redundant thanks to Toon Link, but it's less simple than that. Young Link's Melee trophy is inaccurate, but he does fit the other 2D designs better than the adult Links do, so in a way, he represents the 2D games fairly well. Toon Link has his own factor, since he's clearly a design they reused for multiple later games(some 2D). Not that their movesets are perfect, but in order to fix them up, you have to completely alienate players. This is why the idea of Customs is notable, since it doesn't completely remove their movesets but gives better options.

I do like the idea of "styles"(which is more or less what Echoes practically are), though. That's probably something that'd go better, but they still essentially are their own character and take a lot more development time than an outright costume. I don't agree Link is actually that distinct. He's very good at representing multiple Adult Links regardless of his design. He has the usual attacks(the proper weapons, the spin attack, the upthrust and downthrust, and only at most lacks some magic).

I do agree the lack of musical stuff in general is odd, even if just for taunts. Shiek is the worst one, since it's even shown with her during Melee's intro. They're a small part of most Links, except Toon Link at best(kind of Young Link, but only for the MM factor).

 

[Perkilator]

My take on Link and Young Link:

Link:
B : Ancient Bow & Arrow / Traveler's Bow; Link draws an Ancient Bow and charges an Ancient Arrow that uses Stamina. When the Arrow is fully charged, the Stamina is completely drained and needs to recharge; during this time, Link switches to the Traveler's Bow, which functions how it normally does in Ultimate.
B + Forwards : Ripping Boomerang; one of Link's customs from Smash 4, except this time based on the Lizal Tri-Boomerang.
B + Up : Spin Attack / Paraglider; when used on the ground, it's the same Spin Attack as always. When used in the air, Link takes out the Paraglider and floats into the air for a bit.
B + Down : Remote Bomb

Final Smash: Flurry Rush; functionally identical to the previous games' Triforce Slash, except Link uses Stasis on an opponent and unleashes a Flurry Rush.

Young Link*:
B : Fire Arrow
B + Forwards : Double Cutters; Young Link dons a Zora mask and sends two boomerang-like projectiles in diagonally upwards and downwards angles.
B + Up : Deku Flower Flight; Young Link dons a Deku mask and uses two flowers to fly up; during the flight, he can spit out one Deku Nut onto the stage, which explodes immediately upon contact with the ground.
B + Down : Goron Pound; Young Link dons the Goron Mask and can either roll by holding B or jump up to pound the ground.

Final Smash: Fierce Deity Slash; functionally identical to the previous games' Triforce Slash, except Young Link dons the Fierce Deity Mask and slashes any opponent in front of him.

*Young Link would also have the Mirror Shield and Razor Sword; the former can reflect projectiles with a successful Perfect Shield. Also, save for Fierce Deity, Young Link never fully transforms when he uses a special requiring a Mask. Finally, his Spin Attack is his neutral air attack.

 

[Quillion]

Keep in mind Link is a righty due to a controls thing in later games. He's ambidextrous is most of the 2D games fur sprite reasons, but he's meant to be somewhat of an avatar too, so it doesn't really change much in the long run.

Also, it made sense to update him that way cause they're reusing the BOTW model. It's just way faster.

Do we have a source on the model being lent by the Zelda team? I would think they would have to remake the model from scratch due to artstyle differences, and even if it was lent, potential touchups to the BotW base model would be pretty heavy to begin with.

Also, honestly? I don't find the Champion abilities a good idea for Link or Zelda at all. Just make a new character at that point. If the Champions aren't going to be playable(which considering how they're all of equal importance even after Age of Calamity...), then they don't need this kind of special representation. If you can't throw them into the moveset without massively changing Link, it's not that big of a deal. Like, you can easily do Daruk's Protection via recoloring the Bubble Shield, but that's... it? Maybe? I don't think the others would work as simplistic changes. All Link really lost was his old Final Smash and his Hookshot, which being we have two other Links with a Hookshot, isn't that big of a deal(never mind the same Final Smash). I feel they struck a fair balance, whiel not alienating other players.

I'm glad you brought this up, since I DO think there are ways to incorporate (elements of) the Champion spells into Link's existing moveset without changing it up too much.

• Daruk's Protection: Give Link a unique shield/remodel the existing shield, kind of like you said. Perfect Shield could be combination of Daruk's spirit appearing and the Parry from BotW.
• Revali's Gale AND Urbosa's Fury: Incorporate both into Link's Spin Attack depending on where he does it. When grounded, give Link's at least halfway charged Spin Attack electric properties while Urbosa's ghost snaps. When in the air, give Link a cosmetic updraft or whirlwind while rising alongside Revali's ghost soaring.
• Mipha's Grace: Just a small appearance of Mipha's ghost appearing and saying a line. So it doesn't get too annoying, maybe this can only happen as a small chance thing.

That, and there's not really a good name for another take on Link either. I'm not saying he represents BOTW well either. But I am saying they struck a good balance between old and new in this case.

They struck a balance, sure, but I still don't consider the balance a good decision.

Much like TP Link's Gale Boomerang heavily changed up his strategies, they did so again. He's not too different. It's also safe to say having 4 Links(the exception possibly being Wolf Link) would not go over well. That, and BOTW Link is just another Adult Link. TP Link and OOT Link already set the precedent by that point that it's always been a character who is going to represent more than one game/era for the core Link. It's too late to try and divide them up.

I would argue that since Ultimate is the ultimate Smash Bros, that provides more reason to implement "Classic Link." People who liked playing as OoT Link in 64 and Melee and TP Link in Brawl and Smash 4 would all be covered by it. There is precedent, but Ultimate's role as the "ultimate Smash" provides all the more reason to break that precedent.

Before you bring up "then should there be a Classic Zelda or Classic Ganon", Zelda is a different person with (largely) the same moveset and Ganondorf is the same person with different Smashes (though I still wish TP Ganondorf was an Ike-like alt). TP/OoT Link has the benefit of being a different person with very significant moveset changes, so a Classic Link echo would work where the other Triforce wielders wouldn't.

Lastly, I'm willing to have fudged properties on TP Link so that him and OoT Link would be alts for one another. They can take the Gale Boomerang's whirlwind away and make it only cosmetically different from the OoT boomerang. Lessens the work that way. Yes, it wouldn't be a perfect solution for some more extreme folk, but you gotta win some and lose some.

The two child versions are also special clone situations(Toon Link actually was created using Young Link's files, but traditionally keeps the same moveset(mostly) as Link like most clones do. Echoes are... more odd and have their own set of rules) and already divide up the differences well enough. Of course Young Link is less popular because he feels redundant thanks to Toon Link, but it's less simple than that. Young Link's Melee trophy is inaccurate, but he does fit the other 2D designs better than the adult Links do, so in a way, he represents the 2D games fairly well. Toon Link has his own factor, since he's clearly a design they reused for multiple later games(some 2D). Not that their movesets are perfect, but in order to fix them up, you have to completely alienate players. This is why the idea of Customs is notable, since it doesn't completely remove their movesets but gives better options.

Being alienated is rather subjective though. I was alienated by the changes made to Ganondorf and Link in Ultimate and Bowser in Smash 4. At least there's tangible demand to diversify the Links. And that's part of the reason why I want to have TP/OoT "Classic Link", since the original moveset would be completely intact.

I do like the idea of "styles"(which is more or less what Echoes practically are), though.

Have you tried the Super Smash Bros. Crusade fangame? It has select characters with different styles. I don't think that kind of implementation in official Smash is likely, but we can dream.

That's probably something that'd go better, but they still essentially are their own character and take a lot more development time than an outright costume.

Normally I would agree, but there's also the wrinkle that Ultimate was made with several if not all assets of Smash 4. What they could do is take the TP-based model from Smash 4, touch it up a bit, then port much of his coding over to Ultimate. If they just stick with TP Link, the echo can be sold at a bargain at worst. The modeling and animation work is practically done, and I would imagine that many of BotW Link's attributes could be copied over to TP Link's.

Now, if there is an OoT alt like I want, then there could be a problem, but I would say the animation work for him (aside from maybe face rigging) would be done too.

I don't agree Link is actually that distinct. He's very good at representing multiple Adult Links regardless of his design. He has the usual attacks(the proper weapons, the spin attack, the upthrust and downthrust, and only at most lacks some magic).

He does have the usual attacks, but I'd say they're done in an alienating way.

I do agree the lack of musical stuff in general is odd, even if just for taunts. Shiek is the worst one, since it's even shown with her during Melee's intro. They're a small part of most Links, except Toon Link at best(kind of Young Link, but only for the MM factor).

Agreed. Sheik is the most glaring since her Goddess Harp is practically her sole defining feature in canon, to the point that Hyrule Warriors decided to largely base her moveset on her harp instead of Smash. An Ocarina taunt or victory pose is also a glaring omission for Young Link.

 

[Jotari]

Keep in mind Link is a righty due to a controls thing in later games. He's ambidextrous is most of the 2D games fur sprite reasons, but he's meant to be somewhat of an avatar too, so it doesn't really change much in the long run.

Also, it made sense to update him that way cause they're reusing the BOTW model. It's just way faster.

Also, honestly? I don't find the Champion abilities a good idea for Link or Zelda at all. Just make a new character at that point. If the Champions aren't going to be playable(which considering how they're all of equal importance even after Age of Calamity...), then they don't need this kind of special representation. If you can't throw them into the moveset without massively changing Link, it's not that big of a deal. Like, you can easily do Daruk's Protection via recoloring the Bubble Shield, but that's... it? Maybe? I don't think the others would work as simplistic changes. All Link really lost was his old Final Smash and his Hookshot, which being we have two other Links with a Hookshot, isn't that big of a deal(never mind the same Final Smash). I feel they struck a fair balance, whiel not alienating other players.

That, and there's not really a good name for another take on Link either. I'm not saying he represents BOTW well either. But I am saying they struck a good balance between old and new in this case. Much like TP Link's Gale Boomerang heavily changed up his strategies, they did so again. He's not too different. It's also safe to say having 4 Links(the exception possibly being Wolf Link) would not go over well. That, and BOTW Link is just another Adult Link. TP Link and OOT Link already set the precedent by that point that it's always been a character who is going to represent more than one game/era for the core Link. It's too late to try and divide them up. The two child versions are also special clone situations(Toon Link actually was created using Young Link's files, but traditionally keeps the same moveset(mostly) as Link like most clones do. Echoes are... more odd and have their own set of rules) and already divide up the differences well enough. Of course Young Link is less popular because he feels redundant thanks to Toon Link, but it's less simple than that. Young Link's Melee trophy is inaccurate, but he does fit the other 2D designs better than the adult Links do, so in a way, he represents the 2D games fairly well. Toon Link has his own factor, since he's clearly a design they reused for multiple later games(some 2D). Not that their movesets are perfect, but in order to fix them up, you have to completely alienate players. This is why the idea of Customs is notable, since it doesn't completely remove their movesets but gives better options.

I do like the idea of "styles"(which is more or less what Echoes practically are), though. That's probably something that'd go better, but they still essentially are their own character and take a lot more development time than an outright costume. I don't agree Link is actually that distinct. He's very good at representing multiple Adult Links regardless of his design. He has the usual attacks(the proper weapons, the spin attack, the upthrust and downthrust, and only at most lacks some magic).

I do agree the lack of musical stuff in general is odd, even if just for taunts. Shiek is the worst one, since it's even shown with her during Melee's intro. They're a small part of most Links, except Toon Link at best(kind of Young Link, but only for the MM factor).

Personally I think they should have always kept the name Young Link in Brawl and never made Toon Link a separate character. I don't really like the name Toon Link as it sounds childish and it somewhat inaccurate. And this is still very much a younger incarnation of Link. Seeing them as distinctly different characters also just made Brawl seem like a worse follow up to Melee as it was seen as another character they cut rather than another character they redesigned. Back in my days of SSB4 roster speculation I always listed Toon Link as Young Link. Ultimate was the final nail in the coffin for those complaints though (and previously Hyrule Warriors when it added both of them as DLC) when they both appeared together. And by that point if they had of dropped Young Link and renamed Toon Link then people would have said not everyone is back due to Young Link being missing. So they really forced themselves to have three Links back in Brawl when they named The Wind Waker Link Toon Link instead of keeping Young Link. I suppose they could have maybe made Young Link an alt costume for Toon Link, but Toon Link's larger head might have messed with hitboxes a bit. Now I think mistakes were made, but I more or less accept the reality that people will conitnue to treat both younger versions of Link as separate characters.

See, that's my issue right there. I can see that they were caught between a rock and a hard place with the design of Link in Ultimate. They clearly wanted some kind of BotW representation to go along with the "each Zelda character is a different game" deal, but they also had to take into account how much Link's moveset did or didn't fit the BotW incarnation.

They attempted to compromise, and I admit it seems like many accepted it. But not me. They went both too far and not enough.

• Too far because Link is now a righty, he lost his hookshot, and he can produce pickupable arrows.

Nitpick, but The Wind Waker is the first game where Link could pick up his own arrows after firing them.

• Not enough because Link can't make use of his newfangled melee weapons nor the Champion abilities. I can give him not having any of the Runes aside from bombs though since I stand by that they wouldn't work in Ultimate.

I think the Runes could work. Though I think they're better off being added as alternate specials for Sheik instead of Link. Since right now, with the exception of disappearing and the new final smash, Sheik has like literally nothing from the Zelda series (and even that final smash's representation only goes as far as "This is a weapon that exists". Honestly I feel like the Breath of the Wild weapons are more of a glaring omission from Sheik's moveset than Link's, because for the first time in nineteen years we actually got canonical material for how Sheik could fight. But anyway, back to the Runes, regardless as to who they're on, Cyronis can be a simple freezing attack like PK Freeze or the Ice Climber's Blizzard. Magnesis could work like Rosalina's Gravitational Attract, pulling items and projectiles into to the character instead of controlling them from afar. But even if you want a more faithful variation of the attack, pulling a metal object from Breath of the Wild like a chest or steel ball or something wouldn't be off the table. And finally Stasis could be used like Witch Time, freezing an enemy with a counter. Or if that's too derivative, freezing a nearby enemy in place, but having a lot of start up lag making it useful, but unsafe.

Before you bring up "then should there be a Classic Zelda or Classic Ganon", Zelda is a different person with (largely) the same moveset and Ganondorf is the same person with different Smashes (though I still wish TP Ganondorf was an Ike-like alt). TP/OoT Link has the benefit of being a different person with very significant moveset changes, so a Classic Link echo would work where the other Triforce wielders wouldn't.

We do need classic Ganon though, imo. As in Pig Beast Ganon. A variation of the character using a Trident and Magic that people want so much even though Ganondorf fought with magic precisely once in his original appearances and has never fought with a Trident (outside of Hyrule Warriors). Put Pig Beast Ganon in the game and the only thing Ganondorf haters have left to complain about him is his lack of Katana.

 

[Quillion]

Nitpick, but The Wind Waker is the first game where Link could pick up his own arrows after firing them.

I know, but I'm talking about within Smash but not in the Zelda series.

I think the Runes could work. Though I think they're better off being added as alternate specials for Sheik instead of Link. Since right now, with the exception of disappearing and the new final smash, Sheik has like literally nothing from the Zelda series (and even that final smash's representation only goes as far as "This is a weapon that exists". Honestly I feel like the Breath of the Wild weapons are more of a glaring omission from Sheik's moveset than Link's, because for the first time in nineteen years we actually got canonical material for how Sheik could fight. But anyway, back to the Runes, regardless as to who they're on, Cyronis can be a simple freezing attack like PK Freeze or the Ice Climber's Blizzard. Magnesis could work like Rosalina's Gravitational Attract, pulling items and projectiles into to the character instead of controlling them from afar. But even if you want a more faithful variation of the attack, pulling a metal object from Breath of the Wild like a chest or steel ball or something wouldn't be off the table. And finally Stasis could be used like Witch Time, freezing an enemy with a counter. Or if that's too derivative, freezing a nearby enemy in place, but having a lot of start up lag making it useful, but unsafe.

I don't see your logic as to how the non-Bomb runes would improve Sheik's portrayal. She's from a whole different game than the one where the runes came from. If we need to improve Sheik's portrayal in any way, she would need moves where she uses her harp to cast magic a la Hyrule Warriors the crossover, albeit not 1:1 with that game.

We do need classic Ganon though, imo. As in Pig Beast Ganon. A variation of the character using a Trident and Magic that people want so much even though Ganondorf fought with magic precisely once in his original appearances and has never fought with a Trident (outside of Hyrule Warriors). Put Pig Beast Ganon in the game and the only thing Ganondorf haters have left to complain about him is his lack of Katana.

Pig Ganon sounds nice, if not particularly likely since he's being conflated with the Beast Ganon incarnations as Ganondorf's Final Smash. Even then, there's still the contingent that wants Ganondorf to be a composite of all of his incarnations and appearances, as seen here for example.

Also, when I was talking about "classic Ganon", I was referring more to a Ganondorf who has the old Smashes (hopefully not the old, goofy running animation though). I think a better way to compromise is to give Ganondorf a Shield-B or semi-transform-by-taunt where he can swap out all of his normals for sword normals; at least that way the sword Smashes would be in a set where it fits.

 

[Jotari]

I don't see your logic as to how the non-Bomb runes would improve Sheik's portrayal. She's from a whole different game than the one where the runes came from. If we need to improve Sheik's portrayal in any way, she would need moves where she uses her harp to cast magic a la Hyrule Warriors the crossover, albeit not 1:1 with that game.

Because it's Sheikah related and Sheik is a Sheikah (or rather Zelda disguised and presumably trained as a Sheikah). Some harp inspired attacks definitely need to be in there too of course. Or at the bare minimum a taunt. It's quite baffling one of the two things we actually see Sheik do (play the harp and disappear) has been missing since melee.

 

[Diddy Kong]

: Barrel Throw as Side B honestly. Or Up B, when on the ground. Aerial Up B would be a Barrel Cannon instead. Side B could be replaced with a sort of grappling move, or barrage punches as how he finishes his enemies in DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze.

: Dual Peanut Popguns, and the ability to use them in conjunction with his Barrel Rocket. The Barrel Rocket could also function as a 3rd jump. Some attacks need to involve his tail too I always felt.

: Ragnell needs to shoot the beam projectile. And at this point, I don't know how to implement it, maybe with his Forward Smash, like Link? Or F Tilt? He could definitely use it. Aether also needs to heal a little, and deal more damage, but I'm satisfied with the move now as it finally kills. Urvan, the axe his father Greil uses, also would fit well for a F Smash.

: Actual Psychic type moves, not just Confusion, a move so weak Mewtwo naturally already "forgot" the move in the Pokemon games. Keep the reflective properties though, those are neat. A psychic command grab would also do great, Disable really needs to go. Tilts could also feature Mewtwo using psychic "blades" to keep the ranged aspects of the tail based attacks. Something to buff up his attacks, as Calm Mind, Meditate, or Amnesia, or Recover also would be fitting. A grab that has tether-like properties, but functions as a normal grab is also very fitting.

: Thunder Bolt. And it's kind of weird I have to spell it out. A chargable, high damage, low knockback, ideal combo projectile attack. I don't care if it replaces Thunder Jolt. Make that the uncharged version for all I care.

: A ground pound, and I miss the Mario Tornado, FLUDD needs to go. A hammer swing is also a thing I'd like to see, but since there won't be any new Mario & Luigi RPG games coming out, I doubt it will happen. A footstool that spikes, or does damage is also fitting. Double fire balls too.

: They got the whole moveset wrong lol.... What about the ranged properties of the Sword of the Creator? I want this. Recreate Dimitri and Edelgard out of the moves they use their respective weapon from, I'd like that. It's not like Fire Emblem Awakening doesn't have 3 characters on the roster anyway.

: Different Beam weapons, rapid shooting of missiles, shooting while walking, Power Bombs?

: The Paraglider honestly. Flurry rush would also be a cool mechanic.

: A fully charged Flamethrower should translate into Fire Blast. The projectile used by Mega Charizard X in the Smash 4 Final Smash. He also actually needs to fly with Fly. Make him able to use Flamethrower while using Fly even. It's a damn shame that I gotta feel like the Final Smash version of Smash 4 represents Charizard best.

: The Deku Nut, I know it's an item, but I never got the decision of giving her a made up grenade, and neglecting the Deku Nut. Weird decision.

: Light Arrows. In general, I think they should add the BotW version of Zelda in the next game. How she fights in Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity should give a good idea of how she should fight.

: Neutral B should be the Smash 4 Custom Move Warlock Thrust, but with the power of the Warlock Punch. Just make it ranged. Down B also easily could've been a teleporting attack, having very similar properties to the Wizard Foot. Just change the animation. Make him move a standardised trajection, but make it so he does a teleport and the trail of the teleport does damage. And make it help his recovery too. So, well, change it up a little then. He needs an actual change to recovery before he needs a projectile.

: Eat stuff with Neutral B, make an Egg out of it, use it as item to throw at people. JUST DO IT!

: Same as above, but make Kirby shoot the star out of his mouth like he does when he spits out people with Copy. Add in some moves he does while he has the Fighter ability, to actually make him stand a chance in CQC.

 

[Jotari]

: The Deku Nut, I know it's an item, but I never got the decision of giving her a made up grenade, and neglecting the Deku Nut. Weird decision.

One option here instead of just removing an item and giving it to Sheik would be to give a paralyzing effect to Sheik's vanish. I've been playing around with Sheik a bit since yesterday trying to get a feel for some of the ideas I said in this thread

Sheik with weapons?

So I've never liked that Sheik was in Smash Bros. Oh it seemed fine in Melee, but even by Brawl it seemed weird to have a character in the game was is just a disguise of another character used a grand total of one time. By SSB4 I was actively campaigning to have Sheik replaced by Impa. Obvious...

smashboards.com

And I have to say the Vanish feels very underwhelming compared to Farore's Wind. It also has a lot of startup compard to the likes of Mewtwo's teleport. Giving it paralyzing effects on its first hit could make it a very odd and creative move, as it would encourage more teleporting in place to make use of the paralyzing hit.

: They got the whole moveset wrong lol.... What about the ranged properties of the Sword of the Creator? I want this. Recreate Dimitri and Edelgard out of the moves they use their respective weapon from, I'd like that. It's not like Fire Emblem Awakening doesn't have 3 characters on the roster anyway.

In the up special?

 

[Quillion]

: Barrel Throw as Side B honestly. Or Up B, when on the ground. Aerial Up B would be a Barrel Cannon instead. Side B could be replaced with a sort of grappling move, or barrage punches as how he finishes his enemies in DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze.

That's a pretty common request for DK, but DK is a fairly traditional heavy with a focus on close-range combat. A projectile wouldn't mesh well with DK's moveset design.

: Dual Peanut Popguns, and the ability to use them in conjunction with his Barrel Rocket. The Barrel Rocket could also function as a 3rd jump. Some attacks need to involve his tail too I always felt.

Maybe what they can do is make the Rocketbarrel Pack a semi-float like it works in the DKCR series in addition to being his recovery.

(Seriously, floating needs to be spread to other characters).

: Ragnell needs to shoot the beam projectile. And at this point, I don't know how to implement it, maybe with his Forward Smash, like Link? Or F Tilt? He could definitely use it. Aether also needs to heal a little, and deal more damage, but I'm satisfied with the move now as it finally kills. Urvan, the axe his father Greil uses, also would fit well for a F Smash.

What I said about DK and Barrels applies to Ike as well. I still think a "sword projectile" would work better for Roy than Ike. Aether healing a bit would work really well, though. Honestly, I still think Jigglypuff's Rest should heal too.

: Actual Psychic type moves, not just Confusion, a move so weak Mewtwo naturally already "forgot" the move in the Pokemon games. Keep the reflective properties though, those are neat. A psychic command grab would also do great, Disable really needs to go. Tilts could also feature Mewtwo using psychic "blades" to keep the ranged aspects of the tail based attacks. Something to buff up his attacks, as Calm Mind, Meditate, or Amnesia, or Recover also would be fitting. A grab that has tether-like properties, but functions as a normal grab is also very fitting.

I think it would work well if they replace the "dark" energy with magenta energy exclusive to it (while maybe keeping Shadow Ball). From what I've seen of Pokkén Tournament, that game mixes both purple energy and magenta energy. Maybe to fix Disable they can instead "shackle" the last used special, though it would require an icon above the target.

: Thunder Bolt. And it's kind of weird I have to spell it out. A chargable, high damage, low knockback, ideal combo projectile attack. I don't care if it replaces Thunder Jolt. Make that the uncharged version for all I care.

I think the only problem with this move is that it's not named "Thunder Shock", you know, the actual early-game Electric-type move.

: A ground pound, and I miss the Mario Tornado, FLUDD needs to go. A hammer swing is also a thing I'd like to see, but since there won't be any new Mario & Luigi RPG games coming out, I doubt it will happen. A footstool that spikes, or does damage is also fitting. Double fire balls too.

I think the ideal scenario is if Mario switches out Down-B for Ground Pound and d-air just becomes similar to Doc's. But since Bowser, the originator of the move, and Yoshi, the first playable character to use the move, both have their respective Ground Pounds, maybe we can fudge the lack of it. I still think Mario should just get his Goomba Stomp d-air from Doc either way, though; a damaging footstool would just be a weird gimmick that detracts from Mario's neutrality as the "standard" character. That said, I've personally wanted Akuma-style double fireballs for a while too.

: They got the whole moveset wrong lol.... What about the ranged properties of the Sword of the Creator? I want this. Recreate Dimitri and Edelgard out of the moves they use their respective weapon from, I'd like that. It's not like Fire Emblem Awakening doesn't have 3 characters on the roster anyway.

How is it wrong? It's just the same compromise they used for Ness and Lucas to represent multiple party members instead of developing four characters at once.

: Different Beam weapons, rapid shooting of missiles, shooting while walking, Power Bombs?

Maybe they can add Ice properties to the Charge Beam, but I would like to see her rip off some moves from Mii Gunner, which would give her a better focus on range to differentiate her from ZSS.

: The Paraglider honestly. Flurry rush would also be a cool mechanic.

What I said about Diddy getting a semi-float could work that way for Link.

: A fully charged Flamethrower should translate into Fire Blast. The projectile used by Mega Charizard X in the Smash 4 Final Smash. He also actually needs to fly with Fly. Make him able to use Flamethrower while using Fly even. It's a damn shame that I gotta feel like the Final Smash version of Smash 4 represents Charizard best.

Since Flamethrower is just ripped off of Bowser, I've always had the thought that Bowser should get a proper fireball projectile when you tap the B button instead of holding it down. Charizard could have the same deal. Maybe Fly could work like Pit's Up-B did in Brawl, and that would help Charizard's survivability as a heavy quite a bit. I think we could stand to see more heavies with good recoveries.

: The Deku Nut, I know it's an item, but I never got the decision of giving her a made up grenade, and neglecting the Deku Nut. Weird decision.

I always thought that Vanish was just a use of the Deku Nut. Jotari 's suggestion that Vanish could stun like Deku Nut could be neat.

: Light Arrows. In general, I think they should add the BotW version of Zelda in the next game. How she fights in Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity should give a good idea of how she should fight.

YES. It would be awesome to see the Light Arrow be reworked as a regular special for Zelda. I personally think we can ditch the Phantom and move Nayru's Love to Down-B while Light Arrow becomes Neutral-B instead. But if we have to keep the Phantom, maybe it could be a projectile normal on her Smashes.

: Neutral B should be the Smash 4 Custom Move Warlock Thrust, but with the power of the Warlock Punch. Just make it ranged. Down B also easily could've been a teleporting attack, having very similar properties to the Wizard Foot. Just change the animation. Make him move a standardised trajection, but make it so he does a teleport and the trail of the teleport does damage. And make it help his recovery too. So, well, change it up a little then. He needs an actual change to recovery before he needs a projectile.

Well, I'm at least glad someone wants something other than a projectile that wouldn't work with Ganondorf's current design (the sword already clashes with it). Making his Down-B invincible like that would really help his approach. Maybe he can throw his weapon and that's the part that deals damage.

: Eat stuff with Neutral B, make an Egg out of it, use it as item to throw at people. JUST DO IT!

They can also just give him the same deal as Kirby and give him the ability to eat certain projectiles and spit others out.

: Same as above, but make Kirby shoot the star out of his mouth like he does when he spits out people with Copy. Add in some moves he does while he has the Fighter ability, to actually make him stand a chance in CQC.

Some have suggested that he could instead use other moves from other abilities to bring him up to par with Mega Man, who is also famous for copying abilities.

 

[Jotari]

What I said about DK and Barrels applies to Ike as well. I still think a "sword projectile" would work better for Roy than Ike. Aether healing a bit would work really well, though. Honestly, I still think Jigglypuff's Rest should heal too.

What's your logic here? Roy wants to get right up in his opponent's face as a character while Ike likes to keep them at a distance with solid spacing. I think a projectile would work way better for Ike's moveset than Roy's. Though personally I do want both of them to get a projectile of some sort.

In full agreement that Rest should heal a little bit too. Even ignoring the origin justification, the attack has so much risk on use that adding a heal to it would be entirely justified. And it would just help with Jiggly's survival a great deal to heal between taking your enemy's stock.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Post

Why wouldn't a ranged attack work for DK, Ike and Ganondorf, but it's a good solution for Bowser ? Bowser is also designed around brawling, for the most part. I think overall a projectile would help out these characters a great deal.

 

[Quillion]

What's your logic here? Roy wants to get right up in his opponent's face as a character while Ike likes to keep them at a distance with solid spacing. I think a projectile would work way better for Ike's moveset than Roy's. Though personally I do want both of them to get a projectile of some sort.

My logic is the one used with Sephiroth's design. They couldn't make him a heavy (as much more sense as it would make) because of his focus on projectiles. If Ike gets a projectile, he might need to sacrifice some of his weight. At least Roy's could work like Exposive Flame where it suddenly appears at a distance and therefore it's hard to use.

Why wouldn't a ranged attack work for DK, Ike and Ganondorf, but it's a good solution for Bowser ? Bowser is also designed around brawling, for the most part. I think overall a projectile would help out these characters a great deal.

Damn, you got me there. Though I would say that Bowser's Smash 4 revamp has made him less of a traditional heavy than those other three.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Keep in mind Bowser's projectile is more of a long-reach jab, not unlike DK's Ground Slap, just more in the air. It's not a classical projectile in the same way. Heavies tend to get these kind more. He only has a projectile more like Link or Samus among his customs in 4. He still focuses on the heavy mold with his projectile being only labeled technically in the coding. But it's not really a projectile like other ones. It's a short burst of fire that dwindles slowly. It has barely any range. It could also be described as a somewhat longer range infinite stab attack(like the one Link has) that gets shorter over time. It's meant to be equivalent to a physical attack for heavies.

...But we also have heavies with much more obvious projectiles like King Dedede and King K. Rool. It seems more like Ike and Roy are styled after the idea of having a sword and no projectiles, being classical swordsman, so it's not like either couldn't get projectiles, they just don't fit how they normally play balance-wise. It'd make them way better, though, and arguably wouldn't cause balance issues anyway.

-----------------

Oh, I never replied to the Young Link/Toon Link stuff. You are correct on the head issue. Toon Link is a massively different bodyshape from Young Link. All the adult Links, despite being changed up, are the same body design, just with new textures and updated models as normal. They're slightly different at most, but that's to be expected when transferring a model from a game. It's more akin to how like how Bowser stands up instead of crouches over for his idle animations. Tangibly changed. They're also way more different in terms of designs. Toon Link also is clearly meant to represent a different era, where Young Link was a quick clone at the end of Melee. The weird thing is, Toon Link may not have gotten in if he couldn't use Young Link as an actual base. Considering we didn't get Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik, it might be suggesting that not having a younger design base to work with makes it way harder to make. Brawl got delayed more than once(Sonic coming late is part of one delay), so it didn't have time to focus on new models to rig up entirely for clones. Wolf was lucky enough that Fox was very similar in design(poor Krystal got shafted), and Toon Link wasn't last minute in comparison,

Special note is that the entire roster of Brawl's was determined from the start, including the Forbidden 7(and there's no real evidence to support Tetra was ever in the programming. She was probably considered since we had a pre-Brawl poll, but that's kind of it. Sakurai wouldn't throw in a completely unrelated name. They're either proper code names for a character he wasn't sure of, like Roy being Fire Emblem at first since it was just any FE clone that could work, or they're at most in Japanese instead. Toon Sheik is a hardset clear name. Being he has made clones like Giga Bowser who most definitely are not in other games, it's clear what he meant. Now, I could see in time he would work in a Tetra model as a semi-clone of Sheik using other ideas later on instead of adding Toon Sheik, as the toon ninja needs a new model anyway, but that's the only way it would've realistically happened. At least according to the information we possess). That means that Toon Link was intended to be in there from the start, but whether he would've made it in without Young Link's data is another story.

 

[Jotari]

My logic is the one used with Sephiroth's design. They couldn't make him a heavy (as much more sense as it would make) because of his focus on projectiles. If Ike gets a projectile, he might need to sacrifice some of his weight. At least Roy's could work like Exposive Flame where it suddenly appears at a distance and therefore it's hard to use.



Damn, you got me there. Though I would say that Bowser's Smash 4 revamp has made him less of a traditional heavy than those other three.

Or Ike could just get a projectile and not sacrifice his weight? Ike is lighter than Samus who is like all projectiles. I see no issue with Ike being left with the same weight and replacing Erruption with a Cloud like Sword Beam. It wouldn't make him broken and would probably synergize and work better with his moveset than Eruption does. Sephiroth is a light weight because he's fast with huge range. Not because he has a projectile attack.

 

[Diddy Kong]

My logic is the one used with Sephiroth's design. They couldn't make him a heavy (as much more sense as it would make) because of his focus on projectiles. If Ike gets a projectile, he might need to sacrifice some of his weight. At least Roy's could work like Exposive Flame where it suddenly appears at a distance and therefore it's hard to use.



Damn, you got me there. Though I would say that Bowser's Smash 4 revamp has made him less of a traditional heavy than those other three.

I wouldn't mind if Ike sacrifised some of his weight, if it makes up for a better recovery and better defensive play. I mean, Ganondorf is a very heavy character, but dies extremely early because his recovery is just..... terrible. Same with DK, DK's recovery is extremely linear; means he'll die very easily by interception. I would indeed be willing to revamp DK into more of a lightning bruiser, and less of a super heavy weight. I'd first make him smaller, but keep his limbs long as they are now, and give him less weight, but more speed, and make his recovery better with having Barrel Cannons (which are still, y'know, sometimes unreliable as we see in the couple of DK stages) and the Barrel Throw, both fused as his Up B. DK had this in a certain version of a Brawl Mod, I think Balanced Brawl? And he wasn't overpowered because of it.

Similary, the coming of Cloud in Smash 4 was a big smack in the face for Ike. Not only was Ike denied his canon speed (he's quite fast in the games he's originally from) but also his signature projectile. And then Cloud comes, being faster than Ike will ever be, and having a very good projectile. Only thing he lacks is weight, but in Smash 4 Cloud was just about better in what Ike does in.. everything.

I do agree Roy could use a ranged attack, if only with the fully charged Flare Blade.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Or Ike could just get a projectile and not sacrifice his weight? Ike is lighter than Samus who is like all projectiles. I see no issue with Ike being left with the same weight and replacing Erruption with a Cloud like Sword Beam. It wouldn't make him broken and would probably synergize and work better with his moveset than Eruption does. Sephiroth is a light weight because he's fast with huge range. Not because he has a projectile attack.

From what it seems like, heavies get very short projectiles, while lighter characters have much longer projectiles.

So I could see Ike working well with a fairly short projectile. Nothing like the Boomerang, but closer to how Bowser's is at best. Roy for the same reason(though I'm not sure if he really counts as a heavy?). It seems like FE in general just are "let's be swordsman bar one Mage". Actually, aren't Robin's projectiles rather short too? Making it so only the Links are actual long-range projectile swordsmen? I wonder if that's part of the balance Sakurai is doing, trying to make them feel unique from each other. Clones and Echoes obviously aside.

 

[Jotari]

From what it seems like, heavies get very short projectiles, while lighter characters have much longer projectiles.

So I could see Ike working well with a fairly short projectile. Nothing like the Boomerang, but closer to how Bowser's is at best. Roy for the same reason(though I'm not sure if he really counts as a heavy?). It seems like FE in general just are "let's be swordsman bar one Mage". Actually, aren't Robin's projectiles rather short too? Making it so only the Links are actual long-range projectile swordsmen? I wonder if that's part of the balance Sakurai is doing, trying to make them feel unique from each other. Clones and Echoes obviously aside.

I wouldn't really say that's true. King K Rool and Bowser Jr are both heavier than Ike and have pretty long range projectiles. Samus likewise, as I've mentioned, has pretty long range projectiles. And R.O.B is only slightly lighter than Ike yet his neutral projectile has what seems like infinite range (though I'm sure it stops at some point in a big stage). Granted Gyro is pretty short range as far as projectiles go. If there's any consistent trend of heavy weight projectiles is that they're similar to heavy weight attacks in general, pretty good but with a decent amount of start up lag.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wouldn't really say that's true. King K Rool and Bowser Jr are both heavier than Ike and have pretty long range projectiles. Samus likewise, as I've mentioned, has pretty long range projectiles. And R.O.B is only slightly lighter than Ike yet his neutral projectile has what seems like infinite range (though I'm sure it stops at some point in a big stage). Granted Gyro is pretty short range as far as projectiles go. If there's any consistent trend of heavy weight projectiles is that they're similar to heavy weight attacks in general, pretty good but with a decent amount of start up lag.

Those are closer to mid range even then. They can't go nearly as far as Link or the Space Trio's, or Samus'. Another short-range projectile would be Mr. Game & Watch.

But yeah, Bowser's is not long-range at all. It's got a fairly short burst, about two characters wide, but can't go across or nearly across a battlefield outside of a very tiny stage. Mid range might be a better term for it, though.

That's also why I brought up the FE thing. It might be an intentional thing that they're more classical swordsman with at most energy slashes of sorts(Eruption is kind of varied otherwise). Robin is a mage, but they're pretty short range even then. I can't remember Hero's range very well, but I think he can't get much further than Bowser either. King K. Rool's projectiles are also super slow and wonky, so that might be part of why they have a decent amount of range(not long range, but still).

It really depends how one defines ranges. Regardless, it's hard to honestly say. But heavy weight projectiles might be the point behind 'em.

 

[Jotari]

Those are closer to mid range even then. They can't go nearly as far as Link or the Space Trio's, or Samus'. Another short-range projectile would be Mr. Game & Watch.

But yeah, Bowser's is not long-range at all. It's got a fairly short burst, about two characters wide, but can't go across or nearly across a battlefield outside of a very tiny stage. Mid range might be a better term for it, though.

That's also why I brought up the FE thing. It might be an intentional thing that they're more classical swordsman with at most energy slashes of sorts(Eruption is kind of varied otherwise). Robin is a mage, but they're pretty short range even then. I can't remember Hero's range very well, but I think he can't get much further than Bowser either. King K. Rool's projectiles are also super slow and wonky, so that might be part of why they have a decent amount of range(not long range, but still).

It really depends how one defines ranges. Regardless, it's hard to honestly say. But heavy weight projectiles might be the point behind 'em.

I'd have to check to be sure, but I really don't feel like Link substantially outranges King K Rool or Bowser Jr. Their cannon balls both travel quite far before disappearing. And Link's projectile range is actually quite bad unless he fully charges an arrow. And you mention Samus in the long range category, but she is in fact heavier than Ike. So yeah, I really don't think there would be any issue with Ike getting a long range projectile while maintaining his weight position. Not that he particularly even needs a long range projectile as a mid range one would probably suit him just as well.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd have to check to be sure, but I really don't feel like Link substantially outranges King K Rool or Bowser Jr. Their cannon balls both travel quite far before disappearing. And Link's projectile range is actually quite bad unless he fully charges an arrow. And you mention Samus in the long range category, but she is in fact heavier than Ike. So yeah, I really don't think there would be any issue with Ike getting a long range projectile while maintaining his weight position. Not that he particularly even needs a long range projectile as a mid range one would probably suit him just as well.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the balance strategy is indeed.

That said, there's a lot of interesting projectiles/options for characters nonetheless~

 

[Quillion]

Okay, so maybe there are heavy characters with long-range projectiles. However, it seems that the heavies with projectiles tend not to be the laggy hard-hitting heavies typified by Ganondorf or DK.

Also, it's a tiringly common request that if a character needs another canon move, it's always "give them a projectile."

Ganondorf not canon enough? Give him Dead Man's Volley.

Donkey Kong not canon enough? Give him a Barrel Throw.

Ike not canon enough? Give him his Ragnell beam.

While I still think Zelda should get her Light Arrow reworked as a regular special or projectile normal, I think there needs to be more discussion with "more canon" moves that wouldn't impact the overall moveset design as much as a projectile.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well Sonic if he was added to Smash today would probably have a boost as his side special, Samus lacks a lot of her main canon powers like her ice beam and Dash and Mega Man not being able to hold onto a charge shot is really bizarre.

Ness and Lucas also lack their signature moves, P.K. Rockin' and P.K. Love respectively but I'm not sure how they would have worked.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well Sonic if he was added to Smash today would probably have a boost as his side special, Samus lacks a lot of her main canon powers like her ice beam and Dash and Mega Man not being able to hold onto a charge shot is really bizarre.

Ness and Lucas also lack their signature moves, P.K. Rockin' and P.K. Love respectively but I'm not sure how they would have worked.

Considering I find the Boost gameplay extremely non-fun... I'm sure something better can be done. That said, they might use the Ring Dash instead anyway since it translates better and is easier to make using Fox's Side B as a programming reference.

I'm guessing for Mega Man it's due to him using Neutral A as his specific Mega Buster command. It wouldn't work otherwise, the way they're doing it. However, they could still do so but having him using the Shield button. I don't think it'd be too complicated?

Enough said on Samus, yeah~

The Mother boys should honestly use them as their Final Smashes. It might be very easy to translate. They're both designed to represent their party as a whole, not just themselves(which is fine. Hero does this similarly by representing the entire class, for multiple different spells some can't use, heh).

 

[Quillion]

Guybrush20X6 and Verde Coeden Scalesworth

I'd also like to note that the Boost was given to Sonic in the Smash Bros. Crusade fangame, and it really doesn't work there since it's a source of SDs (especially for the AI). That said, the upcoming Smash Bros. Collision fangame decided to slow it down compared to Crusade, to the point that it seems to be just as fast as his normal run, so we'll have to wait and see on that.

People have started to bring up Samus a lot here, but I stand by my opinion that she already has her most iconic and feasible moves, and the most she has room for is to rip off Mii Gunner and get some projectile or pseudo-projectile normals. How would her Speed Booster and Shinespark even work? How could Power Bombs work? How would the Wave, Plasma, and Spazer beams work?

But yeah, I agree PK Rockin' and PK Love should be Ness and Lucas's respective Final Smashes.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Guybrush20X6 and Verde Coeden Scalesworth



People have started to bring up Samus a lot here, but I stand by my opinion that she already has her most iconic and feasible moves, and the most she has room for is to rip off Mii Gunner and get some projectile or pseudo-projectile normals. How would her Speed Booster and Shinespark even work? How could Power Bombs work? How would the Wave, Plasma, and Spazer beams work?

Well there is one way I can think of, turning her down B from a projectile that I can never find a use for into a morph ball stance, becoming smaller and harder to hit in exchange for having less attacks and no long range projectiles. It would need a lot of playtesting to find the perfect balance of fun to play and fun to play against.

 

[Jotari]

Okay, so maybe there are heavy characters with long-range projectiles. However, it seems that the heavies with projectiles tend not to be the laggy hard-hitting heavies typified by Ganondorf or DK.

Also, it's a tiringly common request that if a character needs another canon move, it's always "give them a projectile."

Ganondorf not canon enough? Give him Dead Man's Volley.

Donkey Kong not canon enough? Give him a Barrel Throw.

Ike not canon enough? Give him his Ragnell beam.

While I still think Zelda should get her Light Arrow reworked as a regular special or projectile normal, I think there needs to be more discussion with "more canon" moves that wouldn't impact the overall moveset design as much as a projectile.

I get where you're coming from for Ganondorf and Donkey Kong, but I don't see why a projectile would not fit Ike's fighting style. I think it would compliment him very well.

Well Sonic if he was added to Smash today would probably have a boost as his side special, Samus lacks a lot of her main canon powers like her ice beam and Dash and Mega Man not being able to hold onto a charge shot is really bizarre.

Ness and Lucas also lack their signature moves, P.K. Rockin' and P.K. Love respectively but I'm not sure how they would have worked.

Rockin and Love are so vague they could be implemented in almost any way (and Lucas does use hexagons in his standard attacks, so you can say it's represented that way). I think Pk Star Strom already works very nicely as a final smash, both visually and mechanically, so I wouldn't be up for replacing it. But a new special named P.K Rockin or P.K Love that is a creative move, yes, absolutely, I'd love to see them with their actual identified signature attacks. That being said, which special to replace? Ness's PK Flash isn't that great so I could see another special replacing that, but generally all their specials are pretty good and fitting for them (and work satisfactorly different from each other despite being the same attacks). One possibility could be to move PSI Magnet to a shield special like Inkling and Steve have and then add Rockin and Love to the down special. The mechanic is there now, so I don't see an issue with extending it to more characters and doing things other than their gimmick.

Guybrush20X6 and Verde Coeden Scalesworth

I'd also like to note that the Boost was given to Sonic in the Smash Bros. Crusade fangame, and it really doesn't work there since it's a source of SDs (especially for the AI). That said, the upcoming Smash Bros. Collision fangame decided to slow it down compared to Crusade, to the point that it seems to be just as fast as his normal run, so we'll have to wait and see on that.

People have started to bring up Samus a lot here, but I stand by my opinion that she already has her most iconic and feasible moves, and the most she has room for is to rip off Mii Gunner and get some projectile or pseudo-projectile normals. How would her Speed Booster and Shinespark even work? How could Power Bombs work? How would the Wave, Plasma, and Spazer beams work?

But yeah, I agree PK Rockin' and PK Love should be Ness and Lucas's respective Final Smashes.

Speed Booster-Could work like Palutena's super speed from SSB4. The issue there is that she already has four specials and this could only really work as a special move, unless you want to give her damage frames by running. Though giving Samus a higher jump if she jumps out of an ongoing dash in reference to a shine spark could be an interesting mechanic for her. Not sure how well it would actually function, but it would be a pretty unique mechanic.

Power Bombs-Smash down B instead of pressing it for a charging move that release a much more powerful bomb. Seems simple enough. She already does something like this for her Side Special (hell we could even come up with something for the screw attack so this becomes a defined thing for Samus's specials).

Spazer could just outright replace the charge shot by being the attack she shoots. You could cover pretty much all the same hit boxes. Though the issue there is that I'm sure people kind of like the big ball charge shot even if it's not actually like how she shoots in her games. So while you could implement this as a reference that wouldn't mechanically change her, fidelity to Smash is somewhat important too.

Wave/Plasma/Ice beams, people have suggested a beam swapping mechanic for her. Maybe tap to charge the current attack and hold to select it like Shulk's monado arts. Or using different taunts to change them. Or hell a Shield Special, that's how Steve and Inkling handle their gimmick. In any case Metroid has a beam swapping function that could be implemented into Samus's moveset some way. As for the individual beams.

Ice Beam - Obviously the potential to freeze an enemy. Maybe give it reduced range to compensate compared to the charge shot.

Plasma Beam - Characterized as the strongest of Samys's beams, so give it a longer charging time for higher power. Maybe a more narrow beam so it's harder to hit with too.

Wave Beam - Depicted as electric based in Metroid Prime, so maybe making it an attack that paralyzes. Though that would maybe be too functionally similar to the ice beam. Outside of Prime it's main function is that it can go through walls and platforms, which would be cool in Smash Bros., but too niche to be the selling point (it'd be useful on like Peach's Castle and Four Side and only handful of other levels). So maybe making it the longest range and the quickest firing, but weakest of Samus's beam weapons to keep it's function intact.

The other alternatives would just be to take those Mii Gunner rip off attacks you mention and give them visual aestetics of her classic beam weapons so they can be implemented as normals. Her current up Smash could easily be changed to look more beam like instead of generic explosions. And her down tilt could be an electrical attack instead of another explosion (though her down tilt is quite satisfying an attack as is so I wouldn't be in a rush to change that specific one).

 

[Quillion]

I get where you're coming from for Ganondorf and Donkey Kong, but I don't see why a projectile would not fit Ike's fighting style. I think it would compliment him very well.

I'm still not convinced that hard-hitting heavies (not heavies in general) should have projectiles. Better recoveries sure, but all three of those characters have quite a bit of reach on (some of) their normals already.

Frankly, I'm starting to agree with what Doc Monocle said about characters becoming less unique if you overload everyone with their "canonical moves."

The problem with that, which I spoke of earlier, is that if you make every canonical reference of that character a justification for using particular move, then at least eventually, two things happen: A: The moveset does not revolve around a consistent playstyle (e.g. Donkey Kong using his coconut gun), and B: Their will be too many opportunities for too many characters to overlap in their move types, rendering the overall gameplay decreasingly unique for each character and each move included (e.g. If Kirby with his ,flame boosting technique, made it into Smash Bros., his gameplay would revolve less around air play and general, close quarters fighting. This aside, it would resemble Firefox, which would be fine if the majority of Kirby's moves centered around the playstyle promoted by such a technique.)

That said, not every canonical move will homogenize everyone, but everyone needs to revolve around a designated niche instead of being a master-of-all with all of their canon abilities. As much as some want every character to have a move that can be used for each situation, it's best that some characters have projectiles, some characters have no projectiles, some characters have long-reaching normals, some don't, etc.

As for your Samus suggestions, the Speed Booster/Shinespark and Power Bomb don't seem very practical. I don't see the Spazer doing anything other than making the projectile less reliable, as you would have to hit the target with all three projectiles to get the full damage instead of one. I'd say the most that could be done is give the Charge Shot as it is ice capabilities given how the Ice Beam is often combined with the other beams anyway. Though honestly, I think ice mechanics should be reworked universally to be more reliable without being broken or RNG-based.

 

[Jotari]

I'm still not convinced that hard-hitting heavies (not heavies in general) should have projectiles. Better recoveries sure, but all three of those characters have quite a bit of reach on (some of) their normals already.

Frankly, I'm starting to agree with what Doc Monocle said about characters becoming less unique if you overload everyone with their "canonical moves."



That said, not every canonical move will homogenize everyone, but everyone needs to revolve around a designated niche instead of being a master-of-all with all of their canon abilities. As much as some want every character to have a move that can be used for each situation, it's best that some characters have projectiles, some characters have no projectiles, some characters have long-reaching normals, some don't, etc.

As for your Samus suggestions, the Speed Booster/Shinespark and Power Bomb don't seem very practical. I don't see the Spazer doing anything other than making the projectile less reliable, as you would have to hit the target with all three projectiles to get the full damage instead of one. I'd say the most that could be done is give the Charge Shot as it is ice capabilities given how the Ice Beam is often combined with the other beams anyway. Though honestly, I think ice mechanics should be reworked universally to be more reliable without being broken or RNG-based.

Ike isn't really a hard hitting heavy in the same vein as Donkey Kong and Ganondorf though. Ganondorf is based on slow powerful play while Donkey Kong is a rush down character. Ike is a spacer, so a projectile would compliment him very well.

 

[Quillion]

Ike isn't really a hard hitting heavy in the same vein as Donkey Kong and Ganondorf though. Ganondorf is based on slow powerful play while Donkey Kong is a rush down character. Ike is a spacer, so a projectile would compliment him very well.

Ike is a spacer because of his normals though. Giving him a projectile would make approaching him a lot more tedious.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Ike isn't really a hard hitting heavy in the same vein as Donkey Kong and Ganondorf though. Ganondorf is based on slow powerful play while Donkey Kong is a rush down character. Ike is a spacer, so a projectile would compliment him very well.

I am not really familiar with Fire Emblem, so it would not be fair of me to speak of canon, or even Ike's 'martial personality' (I would call it). However, playing as Ike felt to be a close-range bruiser. Yes, his sword does offer greater range, and the lag does invite a spacing playstyle, but if we were assigning moves to fit a playstyle with 'cookie cutter' precision (meaning that everything associated with a rush-down character, for example, would have to be seen with all rush-down characters). As far as moves that match playstyle are concerned, while it is good, in my opinion, that moves be appropriate to the playstyle, assigning them strictly because they are compatible can present challenges. For example:

1. You and perhaps many consider Donkey Kong a rush-down character. However, unless he was explicitly stated to be designed with that concept in mind, it would be difficult to make a moveset assignment that satisfies what is understood to be a consensus about it.

2. Even if it were unanimous what should happen to a character's moveset, some very unpopular changes could take place. For example, I believe it is largely agreed that Diddy Kong is a rush-down character, more or less. However, his peanut pop-gun would be obliged to... disappear. After all, projetiles are not essential to rush-down styles. It should be replaced with... Ah, yes... the Chimpy Charge from Donkey Kong 64 (with modifications perhaps).

3. There is something to be said for image. Maybe I am not familiar with Ike's methods in Fire Emblem, but my perception of him is that of a powerhouse that will walk into a room surrounded by hostiles, and slash through them by overcoming them with the weight of his sword. Nowhere in that scene would I expect him to draw... say, a firearm, even if he has done so before in the home series. Consistency for those who are familiar, and perception for those who are not.

 

[Jotari]

Ike is a spacer because of his normals though. Giving him a projectile would make approaching him a lot more tedious.

In other words he would be better because it further helps him to do what he's good at. This isn't even addressing the idea that a projectile is a vague enough thing that it could manifest as basically anything. Falco's laser and Sephiroth's Flare are both projectiles, but they're clearly used incredibly differently.

I am not really familiar with Fire Emblem, so it would not be fair of me to speak of canon, or even Ike's 'martial personality' (I would call it). However, playing as Ike felt to be a close-range bruiser. Yes, his sword does offer greater range, and the lag does invite a spacing playstyle, but if we were assigning moves to fit a playstyle with 'cookie cutter' precision (meaning that everything associated with a rush-down character, for example, would have to be seen with all rush-down characters). As far as moves that match playstyle are concerned, while it is good, in my opinion, that moves be appropriate to the playstyle, assigning them strictly because they are compatible can present challenges. For example:

1. You and perhaps many consider Donkey Kong a rush-down character. However, unless he was explicitly stated to be designed with that concept in mind, it would be difficult to make a moveset assignment that satisfies what is understood to be a consensus about it.

2. Even if it were unanimous what should happen to a character's moveset, some very unpopular changes could take place. For example, I believe it is largely agreed that Diddy Kong is a rush-down character, more or less. However, his peanut pop-gun would be obliged to... disappear. After all, projetiles are not essential to rush-down styles. It should be replaced with... Ah, yes... the Chimpy Charge from Donkey Kong 64 (with modifications perhaps).

3. There is something to be said for image. Maybe I am not familiar with Ike's methods in Fire Emblem, but my perception of him is that of a powerhouse that will walk into a room surrounded by hostiles, and slash through them by overcoming them with the weight of his sword. Nowhere in that scene would I expect him to draw... say, a firearm, even if he has done so before in the home series. Consistency for those who are familiar, and perception for those who are not.

Your perception of Ike in Fire Emblem is accurate, but it's actually precisely because he has a reliable 1-2 ranged weapon (1-2 here being the number of squares he can attack from) that let's him fight back against almost any enemy whether they specialize in 1 range or 2 range. So Ike having long range capabilities is actually a rather significant part of his fighting ability in Fire Emblem (well, at least once he gets his hands on his legendary weapon).

 

[Doc Monocle]

In other words he would be better because it further helps him to do what he's good at. This isn't even addressing the idea that a projectile is a vague enough thing that it could manifest as basically anything. Falco's laser and Sephiroth's Flare are both projectiles, but they're clearly used incredibly differently.


Your perception of Ike in Fire Emblem is accurate, but it's actually precisely because he has a reliable 1-2 ranged weapon (1-2 here being the number of squares he can attack from) that let's him fight back against almost any enemy whether they specialize in 1 range or 2 range. So Ike having long range capabilities is actually a rather significant part of his fighting ability in Fire Emblem (well, at least once he gets his hands on his legendary weapon).

Samus can gain access to a plethora of weapons in Metroid, but her moveset does not contain the majority of them. In Ike's case, I think they handpicked those moves and concepts that fit his predominant methods. I would further that if Ike has to collect a weapon, then depending on how important is to the series as a whole, it may not necessarily count for an 'iconic move.'