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What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

Jotari

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Samus can gain access to a plethora of weapons in Metroid, but her moveset does not contain the majority of them. In Ike's case, I think they handpicked those moves and concepts that fit his predominant methods. I would further that if Ike has to collect a weapon, then depending on how important is to the series as a whole, it may not necessarily count for an 'iconic move.'
Well if you've been following the conversation you'll see that I do in fact think more of Samus's most iconic abilities should be included in her moveset. As for why Ike doesn't in fact use Ragnell's sword beam (the sword he uses in Smash is literally the weapon in game that has this ability), I'd say that's more with them cutting Roy in Brawl and thus giving him something resembling Flare Blade for his neutral special. Because Eruption really has no basis in Ike's canon abilities, he has firey blue aura around him once but that's more like his Final Smash, and Eruption wasn't even blue in Brawl.

Ike did have sword beam for his Aether Wave alternate custom in SSB4 though. Shame they didn't adapt it into Aether in Ultimate.
 

Doc Monocle

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Well if you've been following the conversation you'll see that I do in fact think more of Samus's most iconic abilities should be included in her moveset. As for why Ike doesn't in fact use Ragnell's sword beam (the sword he uses in Smash is literally the weapon in game that has this ability), I'd say that's more with them cutting Roy in Brawl and thus giving him something resembling Flare Blade for his neutral special. Because Eruption really has no basis in Ike's canon abilities, he has firey blue aura around him once but that's more like his Final Smash, and Eruption wasn't even blue in Brawl.

Ike did have sword beam for his Aether Wave alternate custom in SSB4 though. Shame they didn't adapt it into Aether in Ultimate.
By the way, Aether (I am not sure, but remember it as his up special) could technically be called a projectile!
 
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Jotari

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By the way, Aether (I am not sure, but remember it as his up special) could technically be called a projectile!
Nah, massively disjointed hit box XD Though it would be hilariously trolly if Fox could reflect Aether.
You do raise a good point of what being a projectile and not being a projectile even means. Like Mega Man's down and up smashes I'm pretty sure are represented as projectiles in his own game yet are melee attacks in Smash. If the goal is representation rather than moveset improvement, it is possible to represent a projectile attack as a non projectile. Like I said earlier, you could make Samus's up smash visually more fire beam like instead of generic explosions and boom, you have the plasma beam represented. Of course one wouldn't want to do that too much in fear of being contrived (and I personally do think a beam switching mechanic could work well for Samus).
 
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Jotari

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I suppose you have a point. Anyway, I could not really offer much in the way of what constitutes iconic moves in Ike's arsenal. I would have to see the games.
Ike is actually quite well represented in Smash IMO. His side special is a critical hit animation, his down special is the ability to counter that all Fire Emblem characters have. Aether is a skill in his own game with that exact animation (it's possible they even made is visually like that because they knew a character they made would be in the next Smash game, Sakurai has done some work on Fire Emblem). A bunch of his normal attacks come from battle animations, some of them really obscure. And aside from Aether Wave, another one of his alt specials is a reference to Fire Emblem in the form of the Tempest Blade. I was particularly pleased with that. Some people say he's not as fast as he is in Fire Emblem, but I don't really think that's true, as the speed stat in Fire Emblem determines how often a unit can attack, not how fast their attacks are. The Black Knight also has a pretty great speed stat in Fire Emblem but no one would think him a speedster. How Ike fights in Smash Bros. is very well representitve of his animations in both his games. Whenever he's fast in his animations it's a burst of sudden, unexpected speed, like Quick Draw and Aether. Overall they put so much care into Ike it's surprising that the range element of his attack is missing. One way to easy implement it without changing his approach options would be making it the attack that initates his Final Smash instead of a nearby slash. This would overall make his Final Smash better as it'd be easier to hit with (or maybe just different to initate, would depend on how quick they want to make it).

He also can use axes and has an associated axe he inherited from his father, but it's a bit more understandable that it's absent as pulling out a big honking axe out of nowhere is a bit more difficult. Though Byleth does manage it.
 

Doc Monocle

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One way to easy implement it without changing his approach options would be making it the attack that initates his Final Smash instead of a nearby slash.
If you mean the integration of his final smash with Aether, I do like the idea. It would certainly place a greater level of importance on the attack as something of a signature. Though that may be saying much if Ike had many other equally important moves in Fire Emblem.
 

Quillion

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Just because a character can use a weapon canonically doesn't mean they should use it in Smash. Look at how much Ganondorf's portrayal worsened by giving him the sword. Imagine if Mario suddenly swung a hammer for a few normals and how alienating that would be.
 

Jotari

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Just because a character can use a weapon canonically doesn't mean they should use it in Smash. Look at how much Ganondorf's portrayal worsened by giving him the sword. Imagine if Mario suddenly swung a hammer for a few normals and how alienating that would be.
You're the only one who really feels that way about Ganondorf's sword smashes though.
 

Gorgonzales

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Just because a character can use a weapon canonically doesn't mean they should use it in Smash. Look at how much Ganondorf's portrayal worsened by giving him the sword. Imagine if Mario suddenly swung a hammer for a few normals and how alienating that would be.
...What? Ganon's Sword is the best change he recieved in a long time. People were literally begging for him to use it instread of pulling it out for one taunt.
 

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Actually, I agree. The sword is very awkward and isn't really needed. It's clunky and doesn't really add to his current design very well. It only slightly extends his reach but makes him much harder to adjust to. It's a very massive change, and didn't even improve him all that much to begin with. Stuff from Smash 4 like Super Armor during his Warlock Punch actually helped improve him without completely changing his options. His speed in his OOT design actually helped a lot more. What he needs is a non-crap Up Tilt. The swords are... okay at best.

Yes, they were begging for him to use his actual sword from the games(while not realizing that he doesn't use those kind of swords as Ganondorf at any point. The only one close to that is Ganon, and he isn't the one being played as here, but a smaller human form who focuses his magic into his strength, due to the clone factor but also cause he does channel it into his limbs first in OOT). That's not his core sword(he has two actual sets). That's just the one from the tech demo, that was there to show off the cool options the GameCube can handle. It didn't actually lend itself well to the moveset. The issue is Ganondorf never had a canon version of the sword to add to Smash that made sense with the moveset itself. He doesn't even use one in OOT. His only canon swords are long thinner ones, which don't flow at all. His customs were not remotely good about it. Warlock Thrust was at least an accurate move, but still pretty bad.

What Ganondorf has, that would be specifically his in the OOT form, is a knife, which is all but ignored. Besides, the Sword stuff is a very small part of Ganondorf's characterization and they are very much based upon circumstance and design. He doesn't use big burly ones cause he focuses on magic. When he does use it, it's cause either he was being executed with it and kept the particular blade to say "I win" or because they're very long normal Katanas to match the speed he has to honor his Gerudo heritage. There is no room for a giant broad sword in his repertoire. There's zero characterization to it. There's nothing in canon to base it off on. It's not even like the large ones in Ganon form either... which actually are far closer to the Katana he wields later on as is, more accurate ones to him. I get why the tech demo sword is used, but it wasn't an actual legit answer to making him more accurate in any way. It's more of a shortcut that luckily fits his playstyle just a tad more than the other ones. I mean, Toon Ganondorf ain't the one in Smahs, after all. The whole reason it even remotely works is cause it's supposed to be the correct kind of sword for his playstyle(regardless of accuracy) and was meant to be used from day one but couldn't be implemented in Melee. So he was going to use a non-canon sword right away. Thankfully he didn't otherwise he'd lose everything sword-wise but a taunt come Brawl since TP Ganondorf can't use anything close to it in terms of moveset. The Sword of Sages is for stabbing, and works terribly as a giant swinging blade. It's fine for quick slashes, which would change up his moveset wayyyyyyy too much. In other words, they can't update Ganondorf next game without removing the Smashes unless the next design they can use uses a sword very similar to the tech demo one in terms of size/design. That's why they don't translate very well. They're at best a one-game wonder. Maybe something similar will become Ganondorf's new sword(s).

Simply put; people wanted accuracy with his weapons and magic. That is not what happened in Ultimate. He's not entirely inaccurate even now, bar what sword he's using, but the canon claim doesn't fit. Being that's why people clamored for swords. We got an even less accurate Ganondorf which only arguably plays a bit better.
 

Jotari

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Actually, I agree. The sword is very awkward and isn't really needed. It's clunky and doesn't really add to his current design very well. It only slightly extends his reach but makes him much harder to adjust to. It's a very massive change, and didn't even improve him all that much to begin with. Stuff from Smash 4 like Super Armor during his Warlock Punch actually helped improve him without completely changing his options. His speed in his OOT design actually helped a lot more. What he needs is a non-crap Up Tilt. The swords are... okay at best.

Yes, they were begging for him to use his actual sword from the games(while not realizing that he doesn't use those kind of swords as Ganondorf at any point. The only one close to that is Ganon, and he isn't the one being played as here, but a smaller human form who focuses his magic into his strength, due to the clone factor but also cause he does channel it into his limbs first in OOT). That's not his core sword(he has two actual sets). That's just the one from the tech demo, that was there to show off the cool options the GameCube can handle. It didn't actually lend itself well to the moveset. The issue is Ganondorf never had a canon version of the sword to add to Smash that made sense with the moveset itself. He doesn't even use one in OOT. His only canon swords are long thinner ones, which don't flow at all. His customs were not remotely good about it. Warlock Thrust was at least an accurate move, but still pretty bad.

What Ganondorf has, that would be specifically his in the OOT form, is a knife, which is all but ignored. Besides, the Sword stuff is a very small part of Ganondorf's characterization and they are very much based upon circumstance and design. He doesn't use big burly ones cause he focuses on magic. When he does use it, it's cause either he was being executed with it and kept the particular blade to say "I win" or because they're very long normal Katanas to match the speed he has to honor his Gerudo heritage. There is no room for a giant broad sword in his repertoire. There's zero characterization to it. There's nothing in canon to base it off on. It's not even like the large ones in Ganon form either... which actually are far closer to the Katana he wields later on as is, more accurate ones to him. I get why the tech demo sword is used, but it wasn't an actual legit answer to making him more accurate in any way. It's more of a shortcut that luckily fits his playstyle just a tad more than the other ones. I mean, Toon Ganondorf ain't the one in Smahs, after all. The whole reason it even remotely works is cause it's supposed to be the correct kind of sword for his playstyle(regardless of accuracy) and was meant to be used from day one but couldn't be implemented in Melee. So he was going to use a non-canon sword right away. Thankfully he didn't otherwise he'd lose everything sword-wise but a taunt come Brawl since TP Ganondorf can't use anything close to it in terms of moveset. The Sword of Sages is for stabbing, and works terribly as a giant swinging blade. It's fine for quick slashes, which would change up his moveset wayyyyyyy too much. In other words, they can't update Ganondorf next game without removing the Smashes unless the next design they can use uses a sword very similar to the tech demo one in terms of size/design. That's why they don't translate very well. They're at best a one-game wonder. Maybe something similar will become Ganondorf's new sword(s).

Simply put; people wanted accuracy with his weapons and magic. That is not what happened in Ultimate. He's not entirely inaccurate even now, bar what sword he's using, but the canon claim doesn't fit. Being that's why people clamored for swords. We got an even less accurate Ganondorf which only arguably plays a bit better.
I think the general consensus among Ganondorf players is that the sword smashes are functionally better than his old smashes as they just plain have more coverage without losing power. That being said in my own redeisgn of Ganondorf
The only Smash I'm particularly interested in keeping is his new up smash. Because I find it too good compared to his forward smash, as both more or less function the same in terms of area covered. I'd really like him to use his old forward smash in conjunction with a sword like his combo in Twilight Princess.

As far as the acutal specific sword he uses, honestly I think it's the spaceworld one because they went with his Ocarina of Time design. If they'd stayed with Twilight Princess I could actually imagining them using the sage's sword. For most though it doesn't matter what the specific sword is. Though I don't think giving him Ancient Great sword from Breath of the Wild would work better even though he canonically does use the ancient weapons in Breath of the Wild as Ganon. The Spaceworld sword at least looks appropriate for the scope of the attack.

But if we are to give him a more canonical weapon, I"d vote for Demise's dark Master Sword (a wepaon he should have more explicitly had in Hyrule Warriors). Sure it's Demise's weapon and not Ganondorf's directly, but I don't find that to be much of a stretch unless they at some point want to put Demise in the game, And because it's based off a more thematic/lore connection, it would probably suit in the hands of Ganondorf no matter what future design they decide to go with for him.
 

Jotari

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He also can use axes and has an associated axe he inherited from his father, but it's a bit more understandable that it's absent as pulling out a big honking axe out of nowhere is a bit more difficult. Though Byleth does manage it.
Thinking back on this, Urvan could be pretty easily integrated into Ike's moveset as his down B. Either make his counter an axe counter (because let's face it, Fire Embelm counters have become a bit boring in Smash in lieu of all the updated counters, so a large smashing counter that could catch multiple enemies would be cool on Ike), or by just flat out replacing his counter with something like Byleth's Aymr, which functionally acts like a counter, just in a more Focus Attack way than a traditional counter.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I think the general consensus among Ganondorf players is that the sword smashes are functionally better than his old smashes as they just plain have more coverage without losing power. That being said in my own redeisgn of Ganondorf
The only Smash I'm particularly interested in keeping is his new up smash. Because I find it too good compared to his forward smash, as both more or less function the same in terms of area covered. I'd really like him to use his old forward smash in conjunction with a sword like his combo in Twilight Princess.

As far as the acutal specific sword he uses, honestly I think it's the spaceworld one because they went with his Ocarina of Time design. If they'd stayed with Twilight Princess I could actually imagining them using the sage's sword. For most though it doesn't matter what the specific sword is. Though I don't think giving him Ancient Great sword from Breath of the Wild would work better even though he canonically does use the ancient weapons in Breath of the Wild as Ganon. The Spaceworld sword at least looks appropriate for the scope of the attack.

But if we are to give him a more canonical weapon, I"d vote for Demise's dark Master Sword (a wepaon he should have more explicitly had in Hyrule Warriors). Sure it's Demise's weapon and not Ganondorf's directly, but I don't find that to be much of a stretch unless they at some point want to put Demise in the game, And because it's based off a more thematic/lore connection, it would probably suit in the hands of Ganondorf no matter what future design they decide to go with for him.
But it's not his weapon either way. That's the point. It's there for the sake of it, not cause it's actually his. He isn't Ghirahim or Demise. He's Ganondorf. Yes, it's the tech demo sword, which is non-canon.

The Sword of Sages makes no sense to do those kind of massive strong swings. It's a very light sword meant for fast swordplay and stabbing(Ganondorf is still very fast in TP when using it. It's just that he's a very strong character too. Only WW reduces the power of his swings, and only just a bit, due to, you know, fighting very very fast). It's basically similar to Marth's Sword, which is a non-heavy use sword. It'd only work for the Up Smash if they heavily reduced its power to be remotely believable. The actual reason he uses the Tech Demo Sword is it's the only one that fits, regardless of canon. They didn't really give people what they actually want(a canon weapon) either, but at least tried. But yeah, only the Up Smash works decently well. The Down Smash has very awkward hit boxes, and the Forward Smash is just okay. It having an upper swing after does make it not too bad. I also feel his Up Tilt could be his old Up Smash. However, with BOTW Sequel coming out, they might have something better to work with. Mainly cause he'll likely fight with a sword there, like the later games. They're very popular boss fights and I see it heavily continuing. He shouldn't just use a random weapon for the sake of it either. This isn't HW. They should make sense on him. His knife, even Phantom Ganon's Trident(or Sword from WW) has a bit more merit, since he's responsible for their creation. The thing is, we have no knowledge of him being able to channel Demise's power so it just comes out of nowhere for the sake of it(which is the point I'm making). In other words, it's still a non-canon ability. So basically, people can just accept he'll be non-canon and roll with these kind of interesting changes, or adhere to canon moves(even if they're just animation variations of the moves... which is more canon than the Tech Demo Sword anyway). That's an issue on the fanbase. They can't decide what they legit want. It's also pretty much why I say no to DMV. It ain't canon if it isn't highly reflectable by any weapon that can swing, and it ain't right if a few joke items doesn't do it either. It's a really hard move to interpret while adhering to canon, since that's the only reason people care about it.
 

Jotari

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But it's not his weapon either way. That's the point. It's there for the sake of it, not cause it's actually his. He isn't Ghirahim or Demise. He's Ganondorf. Yes, it's the tech demo sword, which is non-canon.

The Sword of Sages makes no sense to do those kind of massive strong swings. It's a very light sword meant for fast swordplay and stabbing(Ganondorf is still very fast in TP when using it. It's just that he's a very strong character too. Only WW reduces the power of his swings, and only just a bit, due to, you know, fighting very very fast). It's basically similar to Marth's Sword, which is a non-heavy use sword. It'd only work for the Up Smash if they heavily reduced its power to be remotely believable. The actual reason he uses the Tech Demo Sword is it's the only one that fits, regardless of canon. They didn't really give people what they actually want(a canon weapon) either, but at least tried. But yeah, only the Up Smash works decently well. The Down Smash has very awkward hit boxes, and the Forward Smash is just okay. It having an upper swing after does make it not too bad. I also feel his Up Tilt could be his old Up Smash. However, with BOTW Sequel coming out, they might have something better to work with. Mainly cause he'll likely fight with a sword there, like the later games. They're very popular boss fights and I see it heavily continuing. He shouldn't just use a random weapon for the sake of it either. This isn't HW. They should make sense on him. His knife, even Phantom Ganon's Trident(or Sword from WW) has a bit more merit, since he's responsible for their creation. The thing is, we have no knowledge of him being able to channel Demise's power so it just comes out of nowhere for the sake of it(which is the point I'm making). In other words, it's still a non-canon ability. So basically, people can just accept he'll be non-canon and roll with these kind of interesting changes, or adhere to canon moves(even if they're just animation variations of the moves... which is more canon than the Tech Demo Sword anyway). That's an issue on the fanbase. They can't decide what they legit want. It's also pretty much why I say no to DMV. It ain't canon if it isn't highly reflectable by any weapon that can swing, and it ain't right if a few joke items doesn't do it either. It's a really hard move to interpret while adhering to canon, since that's the only reason people care about it.
There are plenty of things that are non canon to specific incarnations though. Like pretty much all of the Link's having the upward trust from Zelda II despite none of them being Zelda II's Link. While we might get specific incarnations, these characters are an amalgamation of all of the appearances of the character using what best suits. Yeah, sure Ganondorf's sword has never technically appeared in a game outside of Smash, but Ganondorf does use swords, that's what's being represented. And the sword being used visually encapsulates the attack best (but again, I think if they'd stayed with TP Ganondorf they might have used that sword, sure it wouldn't look quite as good as the Spaceworld sword, but they already managed to make that weapon into a high power move with Warlock Blade). A katana or one of the ancient swords from Breath of the Wild would technically be more canon, but they wouldn't necessairly be better choices merely because of that fact. Ultimately Smash isn't a museum of all characters moves and abilities. It's a fighting game that takes the character's abilities from where it can to form a character that is effective in the context of this fighting game. In the same way it doesn't bother me that Young Link uses a hook shot and fire arrows in tandum with the Kokiri sword and shield despite being impossible in canon, what exact sword Ganondorf happens to use in Smash doesn't bother me as much compared to whether the attack functions well and synergies with his moveset and whether it visually looks good and represents an aspect of the character (said aspect does not need to be 1:1, see what I said earlier about how we could implement projectile attacks as melee moves).

Plus it shuts up a large portion of the fanbase asking for Ganondorf's moveset be replace dentirely, and that's a chorus I gladly want to hear less from.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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There are plenty of things that are non canon to specific incarnations though. Like pretty much all of the Link's having the upward trust from Zelda II despite none of them being Zelda II's Link. While we might get specific incarnations, these characters are an amalgamation of all of the appearances of the character using what best suits. Yeah, sure Ganondorf's sword has never technically appeared in a game outside of Smash, but Ganondorf does use swords, that's what's being represented. And the sword being used visually encapsulates the attack best (but again, I think if they'd stayed with TP Ganondorf they might have used that sword, sure it wouldn't look quite as good as the Spaceworld sword, but they already managed to make that weapon into a high power move with Warlock Blade). A katana or one of the ancient swords from Breath of the Wild would technically be more canon, but they wouldn't necessairly be better choices merely because of that fact. Ultimately Smash isn't a museum of all characters moves and abilities. It's a fighting game that takes the character's abilities from where it can to form a character that is effective in the context of this fighting game. In the same way it doesn't bother me that Young Link uses a hook shot and fire arrows in tandum with the Kokiri sword and shield despite being impossible in canon, what exact sword Ganondorf happens to use in Smash doesn't bother me as much compared to whether the attack functions well and synergies with his moveset and whether it visually looks good and represents an aspect of the character (said aspect does not need to be 1:1, see what I said earlier about how we could implement projectile attacks as melee moves).

Plus it shuts up a large portion of the fanbase asking for Ganondorf's moveset be replace dentirely, and that's a chorus I gladly want to hear less from.
This isn't a good example though; Link was a composite character from the start(he represents all the general Links up to OOT). Ganondorf was never once a composite(but keeping in mind they are all the same person, it's pretty hard to be). Zelda's the same way.

Link's a Legacy Character. Ganondorf's one person who fights in multiple ways. Young Link, Toon Link, and Sheik are very specific individuals and not representing multiple versions of the same overall character, despite bieng a different person. There's 3 Adult Links all under the Link label. This is not comparable to Ganondorf as is, since it's the same character in all the Smash games, only adhering generally to what he can do, and at best one non-canon ability(the tech demo sword).

The Tech Demo sword isn't canon, so it's not really worth noting among his swords to begin with. It's at best visually similar to Phantom Ganon's Sword in WW... but he has his own swords in WW. He also has a different model and couldn't be used properly for the current Ganondorf outside of massive gameplay changes(so basically like Young Link to Toon Link model-wise).

I don't think they would've bothered with the Sword of Sages. It's not the right kind of sword for any Smash at all. It doesn't fit his design at all. That's why it was only ever a taunt and a custom move. It's canon, but is not meant for heavy-hitting whatsoever. If he had stayed TP, he'd be more or less like 4's, but improved overall. The most I could see it is perhaps replacing some normals that are weaker swings, like his Up Air, Neutral A, and a swing that replaces Volcano Kick. Maybe Lighting Punch too, since both are very weak moves. It's very usable, but not as a heavy sword(the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be).

One of the ancient swords would be better, since it's actually give the fanbase what they want properly. It's canon. That's what Ganondorf's problem is. People don't actually care about canon or the moveset flowing. They just want the weapons/abilities that don't work at all. So... that won't happen anyway. Ike's projectile is also a lot easier to implement. DMV I spoke of why it's impossible to balance and feel correct. You still have the energy ball which is similar, but isn't about reflecting it(that, and it's actually something he uses more than once. Ganondorf only bothered with DMV once. When it's the signature attack of Agnahim moreso, but basically Phantom Ganon's too. Not a literal signature attack, but they're the big users of it. Ganon used it once in FSA... which oddly is a different Ganon anyway, since he was reincarnated like Link. It may suggest that ALTTP Ganon is a different person, heh. Timeline is odd). Anyway, I won't go more into DMV. Looks like we're in agreement on that.
 

Quillion

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That's an issue on the fanbase. They can't decide what they legit want. It's also pretty much why I say no to DMV. It ain't canon if it isn't highly reflectable by any weapon that can swing, and it ain't right if a few joke items doesn't do it either. It's a really hard move to interpret while adhering to canon, since that's the only reason people care about it.
That's why I think Ganondorf should forgo a projectile and just add an option to Warlock Punch so that if you tap the B button, it essentially acts as Mario's cape. The "reflect" part of his OoT boss fight was a backhand anyway; it's not that big of a stretch.

Anyway, I see where you're coming from with people willing to sacrifice good design and flow for "canonical moves." If you want an example of how a Ganondorf moveset sacrifices good design for canonicity, see the Crusade fangame:


While you may need to play it yourself to see it more, the moveset is horribly unbalanced and has way too much range, speed, and power all at once. It's fun to play, sure, as a theoretical "what could have been", but this kind of deal would not be acceptable in a professional AAA game.

All of this said, I think you're being a bit too "all or nothing" when it comes to canonicity. As someone who used to vehemently complain about Ganondorf's moveset, the "Canondorfs" as I like to call them, people seem to think that Ganondorf only punching and kicking goes against his spirit as a character. Yes, he does punch and kick in canon, but people will always say that it's at best a mixup with his regular weapon-wielding and magic rather than his main fighting style. People don't really care that he isn't wielding a specific canonical weapon; they want something that shows off at best a mix of his godlike strength both physically and magically, plus some weapon moves.

But yeah, most Canondorfs have no regard for good moveset design. Again, there's a reason Sephiroth was forced to be a lightweight despite him having the sword and magic attacks that Canondorfs want something similar to, and that would make even less sense for Ganondorf.
 

Jotari

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This isn't a good example though; Link was a composite character from the start(he represents all the general Links up to OOT). Ganondorf was never once a composite(but keeping in mind they are all the same person, it's pretty hard to be). Zelda's the same way.

Link's a Legacy Character. Ganondorf's one person who fights in multiple ways. Young Link, Toon Link, and Sheik are very specific individuals and not representing multiple versions of the same overall character, despite bieng a different person. There's 3 Adult Links all under the Link label. This is not comparable to Ganondorf as is, since it's the same character in all the Smash games, only adhering generally to what he can do, and at best one non-canon ability(the tech demo sword).

The Tech Demo sword isn't canon, so it's not really worth noting among his swords to begin with. It's at best visually similar to Phantom Ganon's Sword in WW... but he has his own swords in WW. He also has a different model and couldn't be used properly for the current Ganondorf outside of massive gameplay changes(so basically like Young Link to Toon Link model-wise).

I don't think they would've bothered with the Sword of Sages. It's not the right kind of sword for any Smash at all. It doesn't fit his design at all. That's why it was only ever a taunt and a custom move. It's canon, but is not meant for heavy-hitting whatsoever. If he had stayed TP, he'd be more or less like 4's, but improved overall. The most I could see it is perhaps replacing some normals that are weaker swings, like his Up Air, Neutral A, and a swing that replaces Volcano Kick. Maybe Lighting Punch too, since both are very weak moves. It's very usable, but not as a heavy sword(the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be).

One of the ancient swords would be better, since it's actually give the fanbase what they want properly. It's canon. That's what Ganondorf's problem is. People don't actually care about canon or the moveset flowing. They just want the weapons/abilities that don't work at all. So... that won't happen anyway. Ike's projectile is also a lot easier to implement. DMV I spoke of why it's impossible to balance and feel correct. You still have the energy ball which is similar, but isn't about reflecting it(that, and it's actually something he uses more than once. Ganondorf only bothered with DMV once. When it's the signature attack of Agnahim moreso, but basically Phantom Ganon's too. Not a literal signature attack, but they're the big users of it. Ganon used it once in FSA... which oddly is a different Ganon anyway, since he was reincarnated like Link. It may suggest that ALTTP Ganon is a different person, heh. Timeline is odd). Anyway, I won't go more into DMV. Looks like we're in agreement on that.
Ganondorf wasn't a composite character in Melee because there literally only was one Ganondorf in melee. But yeah, in Brawl Ganondorf was a composite character. He had the Twilight Princess design, but he took elements from Ocarina of Time and the Wind Waker, like his forward aerial from Ocarina of Time or changing Warlock Punch to a backhanded punch after all the pimp slapping he does in Ocarina of Time. Flame Choke is the pretty clear manifestation of this composite trait as the rush comes from Twilight Princess, but the choking comes from The Wind Waker (with the purple black fire from Ocarina of Time to boot). So yeah, Ganondorf is absolutely a composite character as much as any other character in Smash that has appeared in more than one game.

Other than that you're pretty much repeating yourself on all points I've addressed already. If it really bothers you that Ganondorf uses a sword that never appeared in the Zelda series, there's not much I can say other than I think you're focusing on the wrong things. His forward and down tilts came from that very same tech demo too for what it's worth, and were later implemented into his Twilight Princess boss fight. We may one day actually see this sword in a Zelda game. Until then, I'll repeat what I said earlier. Smash isn't and was never meant to be a museum of its characters traits and abilities. In terms of representation it matters less what sword Ganondorf uses compared to the fact that he uses a sword. At least I think most people will view it that way. Otherwise there's a whole rabbit hole of inconsistencies, like Zelda never using Phantoms that way, and Zelda never even using Phantoms as an adult (or as a human!). Or Fox never using pretty much any of his specials, but them still representing aspects of his game.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Ganondorf wasn't a composite character in Melee because there literally only was one Ganondorf in melee. But yeah, in Brawl Ganondorf was a composite character. He had the Twilight Princess design, but he took elements from Ocarina of Time and the Wind Waker, like his forward aerial from Ocarina of Time or changing Warlock Punch to a backhanded punch after all the pimp slapping he does in Ocarina of Time. Flame Choke is the pretty clear manifestation of this composite trait as the rush comes from Twilight Princess, but the choking comes from The Wind Waker (with the purple black fire from Ocarina of Time to boot). So yeah, Ganondorf is absolutely a composite character as much as any other character in Smash that has appeared in more than one game.
...He took no elements from WW. That's all TP, actually. He's just the same person from OOT, so didn't get any major changes. The choke hold is a TP thing, actually. His only big change was speed, annoyingly so.

Oh, I thought he used that particular move in TP only? I know he has a choke in WW, but I wasn't aware of that. However, to be fair, by composite character, I mean taking ones from different people, not just the same person from different timelines. However, you have a good point he's based upon all three now. That said, this is why I like the Ancient Sword idea. He might even wield something similar down the line. It's a bit more believable than just quickly going with the Tech Demo Sword.

Other than that you're pretty much repeating yourself on all points I've addressed already. If it really bothers you that Ganondorf uses a sword that never appeared in the Zelda series, there's not much I can say other than I think you're focusing on the wrong things. His forward and down tilts came from that very same tech demo too for what it's worth, and were later implemented into his Twilight Princess boss fight. We may one day actually see this sword in a Zelda game. Until then, I'll repeat what I said earlier. Smash isn't and was never meant to be a museum of its characters traits and abilities. In terms of representation it matters less what sword Ganondorf uses compared to the fact that he uses a sword. At least I think most people will view it that way.
If it makes you feel any better, I wasn't aware that's where those tilts came from, huh. Thanks for bringing that up.

Though my point was that if you want a Canon Ganondorf, you shouldn't be satisfied with the current sword he has. Since it's not canon. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad sword. I say that as a Ganondorf main, but I found him far easier to work with without the sword. I actually couldn't adjust very well to it. I'm speaking more from that, and from the canon factor being hypocritcal.

Nonetheless, that's good information to have. I get where you're coming from too. It's not a big deal either. He's a very interesting character, and the sword fits the characterization better in this case. He's a literal heavy swordsman, heh.
 
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Jotari

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...He took no elements from WW. That's all TP, actually. He's just the same person from OOT, so didn't get any major changes. The choke hold is a TP thing, actually. His only big change was speed, annoyingly so.

Oh, I thought he used that particular move in TP only? I know he has a choke in WW, but I wasn't aware of that. However, to be fair, by composite character, I mean taking ones from different people, not just the same person from different timelines. However, you have a good point he's based upon all three now. That said, this is why I like the Ancient Sword idea. He might even wield something similar down the line. It's a bit more believable than just quickly going with the Tech Demo Sword.


If it makes you feel any better, I wasn't aware that's where those tilts came from, huh. Thanks for bringing that up.

Though my point was that if you want a Canon Ganondorf, you shouldn't be satisfied with the current sword he has. Since it's not canon. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad sword. I say that as a Ganondorf main, but I found him far easier to work with without the sword. I actually couldn't adjust very well to it. I'm speaking more from that, and from the canon factor being hypocritcal.

Nonetheless, that's good information to have. I get where you're coming from too. It's not a big deal either. He's a very interesting character, and the sword fits the characterization better in this case. He's a literal heavy swordsman, heh.
Well for what it's worth I was never one crying for a 100% canon representation of Ganondorf. I was always happy with his moveset barring some minor things (in fact I would say I was adamantly against giving him a sword). And I also had trouble adjusting to his sword smashes at first. But with more use they've grown on me. Well the Up smash definitely has, the forward smash not quite as much and the down smash I feel doesn't quite work (but I also felt that about his old down smash too). I'm fine with Ganondorf lacking a dead man's volley, but I can understand why people want it. If he ever does get one I'll judge it on how well it feels, looks and functions as a move on him, rather than wether it resembles the Ocarina of Time version or a Phantom Ganon version or something else original like using his current dark purple fire aesthetic. So long as it's a projectile it'd still be a reference. Now there is something to be said about a projectile just plain not functioning with Ganondorf's moveset, but for a long time I thought that would be the case with giving him a sword. My anti sword bias was based around wanting the character I fight as to continue to fight like the character I like to use. And I think they managed to do that with the sword smashes. They are satisying to use and quintessentially Ganondorf. If they could manage to do that with a projectile, then more power to them.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Well for what it's worth I was never one crying for a 100% canon representation of Ganondorf. I was always happy with his moveset barring some minor things (in fact I would say I was adamantly against giving him a sword). And I also had trouble adjusting to his sword smashes at first. But with more use they've grown on me. Well the Up smash definitely has, the forward smash not quite as much and the down smash I feel doesn't quite work (but I also felt that about his old down smash too). I'm fine with Ganondorf lacking a dead man's volley, but I can understand why people want it. If he ever does get one I'll judge it on how well it feels, looks and functions as a move on him, rather than wether it resembles the Ocarina of Time version or a Phantom Ganon version or something else original like using his current dark purple fire aesthetic. So long as it's a projectile it'd still be a reference. Now there is something to be said about a projectile just plain not functioning with Ganondorf's moveset, but for a long time I thought that would be the case with giving him a sword. My anti sword bias was based around wanting the character I fight as to continue to fight like the character I like to use. And I think they managed to do that with the sword smashes. They are satisying to use and quintessentially Ganondorf. If they could manage to do that with a projectile, then more power to them.
Interesting.

Worth noting I do feel a small projectile might be okay. I feel his Energy Ball works better. You can hold A to charge it, as it's based upon Lightning Punch. It'd be your typical one. Same normal reflecting rules, etc. But it also stuns them for a bit when it hits. This would give him time to come up and make an attack. But I don't know if it'd translate well, so.

Quillion Quillion : Sorry, I missed a post of yours. Basically, I mean that there's no point in screaming for Canondorf if it's going to cherrypicked cause you like a move. He doesn't need be more canon if he doesn't flow right, etc. But we already have that view, so yeah.
 
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Quillion

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After 5 games, Mario not having his ground pound is just criminal to be honest.
Goomba Stomp sure, but I think we can fudge Mario's lack of a Ground Pound since the (playable) originator of the move, Yoshi, has it already.

Well for what it's worth I was never one crying for a 100% canon representation of Ganondorf. I was always happy with his moveset barring some minor things (in fact I would say I was adamantly against giving him a sword). And I also had trouble adjusting to his sword smashes at first. But with more use they've grown on me. Well the Up smash definitely has, the forward smash not quite as much and the down smash I feel doesn't quite work (but I also felt that about his old down smash too). I'm fine with Ganondorf lacking a dead man's volley, but I can understand why people want it. If he ever does get one I'll judge it on how well it feels, looks and functions as a move on him, rather than wether it resembles the Ocarina of Time version or a Phantom Ganon version or something else original like using his current dark purple fire aesthetic. So long as it's a projectile it'd still be a reference. Now there is something to be said about a projectile just plain not functioning with Ganondorf's moveset, but for a long time I thought that would be the case with giving him a sword. My anti sword bias was based around wanting the character I fight as to continue to fight like the character I like to use. And I think they managed to do that with the sword smashes. They are satisying to use and quintessentially Ganondorf. If they could manage to do that with a projectile, then more power to them.
That's pretty surprising. I think you remember when I was a Canondorf complainer, as I can remember when you didn't want to give him a sword. Yet your view changed when they went and did it.

On the other hand, I started to speak out against the sword, and I haven't wavered even when they did it. In fact, the fact that the moves are completely out of place in the moveset and are ripped from other heavy sword wielders made me dislike it even further.

Still don't think a projectile fits Ganondorf's moveset design, though. If they want to reference his OoT boss fight even more, they should just give him a reflector as a Warlock Punch option like I said earlier.

@Quillion : Sorry, I missed a post of yours. Basically, I mean that there's no point in screaming for Canondorf if it's going to cherrypicked cause you like a move. He doesn't need be more canon if he doesn't flow right, etc. But we already have that view, so yeah.
You know what? I think it's time I bring this up now: I actually have the view that much of the Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers are too faithful to canon. Some are fine like Ridley, Greninja, or even the Miis where they're a bit more conservative. But I think a lot of the recent newcomers like Villager, Little Mac, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Shulk, Hero, Ryu and Ken, Inkling, Joker, Min Min, and Steve are absolutely sacrificing good design for canonicity. It just makes them feel overwhelming to play in a game that should be equally good for parties and tournaments. In the first three Smashes, I was more enthusiastic to regularly play any character on the roster for fun, but not so much with the recent newcomers.

I don't wanna lie anymore; I think the Smash team needs to exercise more restraint with designing the movesets of newcomers, and I would like to see these "unorthodox" fighters be revamped so that their mechanics are more restrained like the fighters from the first three Smash games as unlikely as that will be.
 
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Jotari

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Thinking back on this, Urvan could be pretty easily integrated into Ike's moveset as his down B. Either make his counter an axe counter (because let's face it, Fire Embelm counters have become a bit boring in Smash in lieu of all the updated counters, so a large smashing counter that could catch multiple enemies would be cool on Ike), or by just flat out replacing his counter with something like Byleth's Aymr, which functionally acts like a counter, just in a more Focus Attack way than a traditional counter.
Thinking further on Ike (yes I never stop XD), Eruption actually has massive forward range now in SSBU, at least when fully charged. At max charge it actually functions a lot like Sephiroth's flare, though I'm sure it doesn't register as a projectile.

So it could be something they could just change the visual aestetic of to make it feel like Ike has his sword beams rather than giving him an outright projectile.
 

HYRULESHERO42

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The debates in this thread are fascinating, I find myself agreeing with both sides more often than not.

As for my 2 cents

Isn’t Ganondorf’s sword the one from the SpaceWorld GameCube tech demo? I feel like that fits. Though after seeing some folk discuss him having a magic based ranged attack I have to agree it would fit too.

After playing through Metroid on the NES again I feel that Samus is more dangerous in that game than she is in Smash. Maybe finding a way to incorporate her ice beam and/or wave beam instead of her charged shot would help?

Also - whoever pointed out that Mario needs the butt stomp attack added, pure brilliance
 
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Blackwolf666

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:ultbanjokazooie: = add running shoes during running animation to make them go faster and run up walls.
:ultsnake: = Tranq gun; anybody that played MGS games knows that the tranq gun is a staple.
:ultlucina: = whatever that windmill spin she does in the awakening cutscene she fights Chrom in is called
:ultganondorf: = still say that his sword needs to be able to reflect projectiles
:ultincineroar: = generic fire attack he shoots out with a pelvic thrust
 

Quillion

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So it appears that Samus is getting a lot more melee options in Dread. Not only does this mean that the Melee Counter is on its way to becoming an "iconic move" of its own, but it's being supplemented by a whole bunch of other moves like a new Dash Melee and Slide Melee. And for that matter, she has a slide straight-up ripped off of Mega Man and/or Kirby.

I feel like the Melee Counter at this point could go on Samus. It would either be a good up-tilt (replacing the "heel of shame" she essentially shares with Falcon) or a parry animation. Not sure about the other melee attacks, but assuming those get in more 2D Metroid games, the Dash Melee would make a nice Dash Attack obviously (albeit losing the Shinespark-referencing original Dash Attack, then again I'm not really a fan of the Speed Booster or Shinespark anymore) and the Slide Melee would be a good Up-Smash (albeit that's a Flash Kick, itself a rather generic Up-Smash).

Also, why is there so much demand for Kirby to get his slide yet there is none for Samus? Is this just more hypocrisy akin to the desire for more Ganon sword moves yet the love of Zelda's Light Arrow loss?
 

Jotari

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Also, why is there so much demand for Kirby to get his slide yet there is none for Samus? Is this just more hypocrisy akin to the desire for more Ganon sword moves yet the love of Zelda's Light Arrow loss?
I'm pretty sure this unreleased game is literally the first time Samus has ever had a slide. Well I guess Zero Suit Samus had one for that brief playable section of Other M, but yeah, other than that the Morph Ball has always been Samus's downward form of momentum. While Kirby has been sliding in a bunch of different games for decades.
 
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Lenidem

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Is this just more hypocrisy akin to the desire for more Ganon sword moves yet the love of Zelda's Light Arrow loss?
After all this time, I still haven't seen anyone "loving" Zelda's Light Arrow loss. You keep mentionning this people over and over again, but I'm starting to think it was someone in your head.
 

Quillion

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After all this time, I still haven't seen anyone "loving" Zelda's Light Arrow loss. You keep mentionning this people over and over again, but I'm starting to think it was someone in your head.
The fact that people are silent about Zelda not reworking her Light Arrow as a regular move means that people like the decision despite the Light Arrow being her iconic weapon at this point. This is despite these same people wanting Ganondorf to have more sword moves or a projectile on the grounds of them being his "iconic moves."
 

Lenidem

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The fact that people are silent about Zelda not reworking her Light Arrow as a regular move means that people like the decision despite the Light Arrow being her iconic weapon at this point. This is despite these same people wanting Ganondorf to have more sword moves or a projectile on the grounds of them being his "iconic moves."
Yeah, that's what I thought. You've never actually heard anyone saying "I'm glad Zelda lost the light arrow".

Besides, Zelda's and Ganondorf's Smash movesets are totally different. She uses specific habilities from her games (Great Fairies spells, Phantom Slash, sealing the darkness with the Triforce) while he just punches, kicks and strangles (and turns into Ganon).

So your premices are both wrong. If there is hypcrosy, it's not where you pretend.
 

Jotari

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Yeah, that's what I thought. You've never actually heard anyone saying "I'm glad Zelda lost the light arrow".

Besides, Zelda's and Ganondorf's Smash movesets are totally different. She uses specific habilities from her games (Great Fairies spells, Phantom Slash, sealing the darkness with the Triforce) while he just punches, kicks and strangles (and turns into Ganon).

So your premices are both wrong. If there is hypcrosy, it's not where you pretend.
While I think talking about people loving that Zelda doesn't have her light arrows is a bit of a strawman (after all this thread here is about the most iconic moves characters are missing, so people are aware of this "issue" beyond Ganondorf and have been talking about it for the past seven pages for various characters), I do think you're bringing up a false equivalency there. Because the truth is that Zelda takes a grand total of zero animations from her own games. The closest is the Phantom Slash which does reference something she did in one game, but it works entirely different (this is not a bad thing). The Ocarina of Time spells are likewise implemented very differently to how they work in Ocarina of Time. The only one of the three even being vaguely similar is Farore's Wind. Imagine if Ganondorf's moves were named after spells from the Zelda series like Bombos and Thunder, but didn't actually look or act like them at all. That is effectively the situation Zelda is in (only her level of representation is worse as her normal moves are generic hand waves while Ganondorf's punches, kicks and strangles are things he actually does do in his own games). This is despite the fact that Zelda has been given iconic fighting styles since her debut in Melee in the form of a rapier and light arrows. So Zelda and Ganondorf are in very similar positions in terms of their smash representation, there's just a bit more stigma against Ganondorf. The stigma, I think, being born from a combination of him being a clone twenty years ago and being really low tier in Brawl.

Now all that being said, I think the stigma has reduced considerably since the release of SSBU, both because he got what a lot of people wanted in the form of a sword, but also because he's rather decent in SSBU too.
 
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Lenidem

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While I think talking about people loving that Zelda doesn't have her light arrows is a bit of a strawman (after all this thread here is about the most iconic moves characters are missing, so people are aware of this "issue" beyond Ganondorf and have been talking about it for the past seven pages for various characters), I do think you're bringing up a false equivalency there. Because the truth is that Zelda takes a grand total of zero animations from her own games. The closest is the Phantom Slash which does reference something she did in one game, but it works entirely different (this is not a bad thing). The Ocarina of Time spells are likewise implemented very differently to how they work in Ocarina of Time. The only one of the three even being vaguely similar is Farore's Wind. Imagine if Ganondorf's moves were named after spells from the Zelda series like Bombos and Thunder, but didn't actually look or act like them at all. That is effectively the situation Zelda is in (only her level of representation is worse as her normal moves are generic hand waves while Ganondorf's punches, kicks and strangles are things he actually does do in his own games). This is despite the fact that Zelda has been given iconic fighting styles since her debut in Melee in the form of a rapier and light arrows. So Zelda and Ganondorf are in very similar positions in terms of their smash representation, there's just a bit more stigma against Ganondorf. The stigma, I think, being born from a combination of him being a clone twenty years ago and being really low tier in Brawl.

Now all that being said, I think the stigma has reduced considerably since the release of SSBU, both because he got what a lot of people wanted in the form of a sword, but also because he's rather decent in SSBU too.
You raise intersting points, but I still do not agree.

Back when Melee came out, Zelda had very few to work with, and it would have been difficult to make better. Yes, the normal moves are all invented: they needed to be. And the specials work differently than in Ocarina, but it makes sense that Zelda uses them and they are still recognizable:

  • visually, it's the same color code: green, red, blue;
  • they refer to the same elements: wind, fire, "love";
  • they have similar functions: a teleport, a blast, a protection - although Din's Fire works very differently and "should" be closer to a zone explosion rather than a semi-guided small projectile.

So it's not just the names, unlike Ganondorf's specials names which are totally arbitrary (Gerudo Dragon, Warlock Punch, Sorcerer Kick...).

And of course there is the Sheik's transformation, which has been replaced by the Phantom. Both of those are clearly taken from specific games.

Now there is more things to use, yes, and the Light Arrow could still be a very nice touch - I would rather have that than the Phantom. But it's not nearly as bad as Ganondorf's representation. Yes, he needs Dead Man Volley at the very least, because he or a form of him uses it in every single game he's been.

Also, when did we see Zelda use a rapier except in Hyrule Warriors? Was it in Twilight Princess?
 

Quillion

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Now there is more things to use, yes, and the Light Arrow could still be a very nice touch - I would rather have that than the Phantom. But it's not nearly as bad as Ganondorf's representation. Yes, he needs Dead Man Volley at the very least, because he or a form of him uses it in every single game he's been.
Why is Ganondorf's having some sort of projectile such a sticking point? Would YOU want Donkey Kong to throw barrels on account of that being an iconic projectile?
 

Lenidem

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Why is Ganondorf's having some sort of projectile such a sticking point? Would YOU want Donkey Kong to throw barrels on account of that being an iconic projectile?
Because that's his most recognizable and recurrent move. I'm not a fan of DK so I don't care about his moveset.
 

Jotari

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You raise intersting points, but I still do not agree.

Back when Melee came out, Zelda had very few to work with, and it would have been difficult to make better. Yes, the normal moves are all invented: they needed to be. And the specials work differently than in Ocarina, but it makes sense that Zelda uses them and they are still recognizable:

  • visually, it's the same color code: green, red, blue;
  • they refer to the same elements: wind, fire, "love";
  • they have similar functions: a teleport, a blast, a protection - although Din's Fire works very differently and "should" be closer to a zone explosion rather than a semi-guided small projectile.

So it's not just the names, unlike Ganondorf's specials names which are totally arbitrary (Gerudo Dragon, Warlock Punch, Sorcerer Kick...).

And of course there is the Sheik's transformation, which has been replaced by the Phantom. Both of those are clearly taken from specific games.

Now there is more things to use, yes, and the Light Arrow could still be a very nice touch - I would rather have that than the Phantom. But it's not nearly as bad as Ganondorf's representation. Yes, he needs Dead Man Volley at the very least, because he or a form of him uses it in every single game he's been.

Also, when did we see Zelda use a rapier except in Hyrule Warriors? Was it in Twilight Princess?
Because that's his most recognizable and recurrent move. I'm not a fan of DK so I don't care about his moveset.
I'm not making a judgement on Zelda. It's true, there wasn't a whole lot to work with in Melee, the same is true for Ganondorf though. And what they did give Zelda was taken from somewhere else and altered significantly. Does it make sense? Yes. Is it representative of how she actually fights in her own series? Well back then, no not really, because she never really fought (save that one beam she used to subdue Ganon which would be great as a rip off of Robin's Thoron should they implement custom specials again), and now, 20 years later, no, not at all. Aside from the rapier, she has used or has been associated with Light Arrows in virtually every appearance since handing them to Link in Ocarina of Time. She takes them from Link and uses them in the final battle in The Wind Waker, helps the Links create a psudeo light arrow by providing the light energy for them to shoot through in Four Swords Adventures, creates and uses them herself in Twilight Princess, borrows them from Link for the final battle again in Spirit Tracks and then creates and gives them to Link again during the final battles of A Link Between Worlds and Breath of the Wild. The only significant Zelda appearance that doesn't have some association with Light Arrows, either via creating or using them, is the Minish Cap. And she did use to have them in Smash in the form of her final smash, so removing it when it's such a significant part of how she fights in her own series is curious to say the least. Though just in general as a Smash player I do find her new Final Smash to be better as it has less necessary set up and auto kills, so I'm not crying to see the Light Arrows return. I'd prefer if they did they manage to work them into her regular moveset some how, maybe in her throws or something (or alternate specials, I know I harp on about the idea, but if they went full haul on custom specials again with Palutena levels of variety then it would solve so many of these representation issues).

Dead Man's Volley I might conceed are as important to Ganondorf as Light Arrows are to Zelda, though in truth I think it is less important. It's only a large part of Ganondorf's fighting style in Ocarina of Time. It doesn't appear in any form in The Wind Waker under any of his battles and in Twilight Princess he only uses it one phase of the battle when he's possessing Zelda. When he directly fights Link in his Ganondorf form it's all swords and pressing kicks with no magic at all. If we expand Ganondorf's overall character to include his appearances as Ganon then we have a few more instances, though not as many as you might think. He shoots projectiles in the first game, though Link doesn't reflect them back Dead Man's Volley style. In A Link to the Past Agahnim is the one to use Dead Man's Volley, so yeah, definite connection and part of a fighting style there for Ganondorf, though it is the alter ego of his alter ego. Ganon as Ganon doesn't use it Ocarina of Time, it's all sword swipes. It's not a part of his boss fight in the Oracle games either. In Four Swords Adventures it's kind of there in that Link can hit back projectiles while defending Zelda in the final phase of the battle, but Ganon doesn't shoot them back at Link, so it's not really part of the classic style. Yuga-Ganon uses them in A Link Between Worlds, so again some tangential association there. And in his most recent appearance in Breath of the Wild he doesn't have anything close to it, unless you count the ability to parry projectiles which Link can do to any enemy in the game with his shield. Sp you see, Ganon never actually uses Dead Man's Volley, and Ganondorf only ever uses it once. It's definitely present, but it's in a tangential way with related characters like Agahnim, Yuga and, somewhat amusingly, Zelda. Phantom Ganon is by far the most iconic user of it having it in every one of his appearance. So again, it's present, but also again tangentially. Now of course characters have received moves they have tangential relation to before (see again Zelda and her specials), so there's absolutely no reason Ganondorf can't get Dead Man's Volley (and to be fair it being used in the msin part of his battle in one of his three appearances in the Zelda series is significant), but I also think upon analyzing the character it's clear that while the association is there, it isn't as strong as many people would assume. What's more, it is a rather generic gimmick for a Zelda boss battle, having been used with several other enemies throughout the series. Even the name we give to it, the Dead Man's Volley, comes not from Ganondorf, but from the mid game bosses the Cubus Sisters in Phantom Hourglass.

I won't bregrudge anyone for wanting to see Ganondorf get a projectile in Smash Bros, but I'd prefer it be for the reason that it fits into his moveset well, rather than thinking he absolutely needs it to be Ganondorf. Because I think on objective analysis it is not integral to his depiction. How Ganon and Ganondorf fight has always been somewhat varied in the Zelda series to keep things fresh. It's a thing, and it is there, but it's never been all that vital an aspect of the character to the extent that him not using it would be notable. It is an element of his character, but not a major one, and many characters in Smash have minor or major aspects of their character missing in depiction. That's why this whole thread exists after all.

And yeah, Zelda had a rapier in Twlight Princess (and no it wasn't just a Ganon Puppet Zelda thing as she had it in a cutscene too).
 
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Lenidem

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
1,256
I'm not making a judgement on Zelda. It's true, there wasn't a whole lot to work with in Melee, the same is true for Ganondorf though. And what they did give Zelda was taken from somewhere else and altered significantly. Does it make sense? Yes. Is it representative of how she actually fights in her own series? Well back then, no not really, because she never really fought (save that one beam she used to subdue Ganon which would be great as a rip off of Robin's Thoron should they implement custom specials again), and now, 20 years later, no, not at all. Aside from the rapier, she has used or has been associated with Light Arrows in virtually every appearance since handing them to Link in Ocarina of Time. She takes them from Link and uses them in the final battle in The Wind Waker, helps the Links create a psudeo light arrow by providing the light energy for them to shoot through in Four Swords Adventures, creates and uses them herself in Twilight Princess, borrows them from Link for the final battle again in Spirit Tracks and then creates and gives them to Link again during the final battles of A Link Between Worlds and Breath of the Wild. The only significant Zelda appearance that doesn't have some association with Light Arrows, either via creating or using them, is the Minish Cap. And she did use to have them in Smash in the form of her final smash, so removing it when it's such a significant part of how she fights in her own series is curious to say the least. Though just in general as a Smash player I do find her new Final Smash to be better as it has less necessary set up and auto kills, so I'm not crying to see the Light Arrows return. I'd prefer if they did they manage to work them into her regular moveset some how, maybe in her throws or something (or alternate specials, I know I harp on about the idea, but if they went full haul on custom specials again with Palutena levels of variety then it would solve so many of these representation issues).

Dead Man's Volley I might conceed are as important to Ganondorf as Light Arrows are to Zelda, though in truth I think it is less important. It's only a large part of Ganondorf's fighting style in Ocarina of Time. It doesn't appear in any form in The Wind Waker under any of his battles and in Twilight Princess he only uses it one phase of the battle when he's possessing Zelda. When he directly fights Link in his Ganondorf form it's all swords and pressing kicks with no magic at all. If we expand Ganondorf's overall character to include his appearances as Ganon then we have a few more instances, though not as many as you might think. He shoots projectiles in the first game, though Link doesn't reflect them back Dead Man's Volley style. In A Link to the Past Agahnim is the one to use Dead Man's Volley, so yeah, definite connection and part of a fighting style there for Ganondorf, though it is the alter ego of his alter ego. Ganon as Ganon doesn't use it Ocarina of Time, it's all sword swipes. It's not a part of his boss fight in the Oracle games either. In Four Swords Adventures it's kind of there in that Link can hit back projectiles while defending Zelda in the final phase of the battle, but Ganon doesn't shoot them back at Link, so it's not really part of the classic style. Yuga-Ganon uses them in A Link Between Worlds, so again some tangential association there. And in his most recent appearance in Breath of the Wild he doesn't have anything close to it, unless you count the ability to parry projectiles which Link can do to any enemy in the game with his shield. Sp you see, Ganon never actually uses Dead Man's Volley, and Ganondorf only ever uses it once. It's definitely present, but it's in a tangential way with related characters like Agahnim, Yuga and, somewhat amusingly, Zelda. Phantom Ganon is by far the most iconic user of it having it in every one of his appearance. So again, it's present, but also again tangentially. Now of course characters have received moves they have tangential relation to before (see again Zelda and her specials), so there's absolutely no reason Ganondorf can't get Dead Man's Volley (and to be fair it being used in the msin part of his battle in one of his three appearances in the Zelda series is significant), but I also think upon analyzing the character it's clear that while the association is there, it isn't as strong as many people would assume. What's more, it is a rather generic gimmick for a Zelda boss battle, having been used with several other enemies throughout the series. Even the name we give to it, the Dead Man's Volley, comes not from Ganondorf, but from the mid game bosses the Cubus Sisters in Phantom Hourglass.

I won't bregrudge anyone for wanting to see Ganondorf get a projectile in Smash Bros, but I'd prefer it be for the reason that it fits into his moveset well, rather than thinking he absolutely needs it to be Ganondorf. Because I think on objective analysis it is not integral to his depiction. How Ganon and Ganondorf fight has always been somewhat varied in the Zelda series to keep things fresh. It's a thing, and it is there, but it's never been all that vital an aspect of the character. It is an element of his character, but not a major one, and many characters in Smash have minor or major aspects of their character missing in depiction. That's why this whole thread exists after all.

And yeah, Zelda had a rapier in Twlight Princess (and no it wasn't just a Ganon Puppet Zelda thing as she had it in a cutscene too).
Well, if revamping completely the veteran's movesets was not totally taboo, then yeah, I guess Zelda could borrow some other moves from post-Ocarina entries besides the Phantom Slash - although the so-called "iconic rapier fighting style" has actually never been seen in action. And yes, I also think that it would have been better if Zelda had kept the Light Arrow. But 1) she still has moves coming explicitely from one of her games, far more explictely than Ganondorf's specials and 2) the sealing power who replaces it is also something strongly associated with her, although not as much : in a Link to the Past, she must be sacrified so the seal would break ; in Ocarina of Time, she's the one initating the "sealness" ; and in Breath of the Wild, she's been sealing Ganon for a whole hundred years. So it's not like it had been replaced by something out of context.

Why dismiss the times when Ganondorf uses the Dead Man Volley as someone else, Aghanim or Zelda ? It's still the same person. Zelda is not the one deadmanvolleying you, Ganondorf is. Yuga utilises Ganon's power to do. And Ganon's Phantoms are practically Ganon's shade, something like a part of himself, so I really think that counts. One way or another, it's almost all the time associated with Ganon(dorf). Like you say, even if this move was only "a large part" of his first and most striking final fight, it would be enough to give it to him, but it's much more than that. The fact that other bosses in Zelda utilise it only reinforce the idea that this move is "iconic" to the Zelda franchise and therefore should be seen in Smash. No, Sakurai, that doesn't mean you have to make the Cubus Sisters playable !!
 
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Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,989
Well, if revamping completely the veteran's movesets was not totally taboo, then yeah, I guess Zelda could borrow some other moves from post-Ocarina entries besides the Phantom Slash - although the so-called "iconic rapier fighting style" has actually never been seen in action. And yes, I also think that it would have been better if Zelda had kept the Light Arrow. But 1) she still has moves coming explicitely from one of her games, far more explictely than Ganondorf's specials and 2) the sealing power who replaces it is also something strongly associated with her, although not as much : in a Link to the Past, she must be sacrified so the seal would break ; in Ocarina of Time, she's the one initating the "sealness" ; and in Breath of the Wild, she's been sealing Ganon for a whole hundred years. So it's not like it had been replaced by something out of context.
But while they have some in-game resemblance, they're practically in-name-only adaptations of those moves. You're just reaching for straws trying to justify that they are canon, when in fact all they have is the name.

Why dismiss the times when Ganondorf uses the Dead Man Volley as someone else, Aghanim or Zelda ? It's still the same person. Zelda is not the one deadmanvolleying you, Ganondorf is. Yuga utilises Ganon's power to do. And Ganon's Phantoms are practically Ganon's shade, something like a part of himself, so I really think that counts. One way or another, it's almost all the time associated with Ganon(dorf). Like you say, even if this move was only "a large part" of his first and most striking final fight, it would be enough to give it to him, but it's much more than that. The fact that other bosses in Zelda utilise it only reinforce the idea that this move is "iconic" to the Zelda franchise and therefore should be seen in Smash. No, Sakurai, that doesn't mean you have to make the Cubus Sisters playable !!
Wait, are you arguing that it's iconic to the Zelda franchise, or iconic to Ganon/Ganondorf himself? If it's the latter, Jotari Jotari demonstrably illustrates that it is an aspect of Ganon, but not a major one. If it's the former, that would be like giving the Light Arrow to Ganondorf himself because that is iconic to the series and should be represented regardless of which character it's on.

Besides, Dedede has a "reflect with any attack" projectile in Gordo toss, and people consider it an incredibly situational move at best. And even if you ignore that and just give Ganon an in-name only variation of the move where he throws a non-hittable projectile, it still wouldn't gel with his established design in Smash. Again, there's a reason why DK isn't going to get his barrels or Coconut Gun, and if he did, EVERYONE would deride it as poor moveset design.
 

Lenidem

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
1,256
But while they have some in-game resemblance, they're practically in-name-only adaptations of those moves. You're just reaching for straws trying to justify that they are canon, when in fact all they have is the name.
Yeah, yeah, the functions, the visual, the elemental aspects, that's nothing, sure.

Wait, are you arguing that it's iconic to the Zelda franchise, or iconic to Ganon/Ganondorf himself?
Both.

If it's the latter, Jotari Jotari demonstrably illustrates that it is an aspect of Ganon, but not a major one.
You should read my last post, I "demonstrated" that it's actually the more recurrent and therefore major aspect of Ganon.

If it's the former, that would be like giving the Light Arrow to Ganondorf himself because that is iconic to the series and should be represented regardless of which character it's on.
And you're the one calling people hypocrites... But yeah. Sure. That's totally the same.

Besides, Dedede has a "reflect with any attack" projectile in Gordo toss, and people consider it an incredibly situational move at best. And even if you ignore that and just give Ganon an in-name only variation of the move where he throws a non-hittable projectile, it still wouldn't gel with his established design in Smash. Again, there's a reason why DK isn't going to get his barrels or Coconut Gun, and if he did, EVERYONE would deride it as poor moveset design.
Ganondorf should have had a totally different moveset from the beginning. And I've no problem with the Gordo toss.
 

Jotari

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
444
Well, if revamping completely the veteran's movesets was not totally taboo, then yeah, I guess Zelda could borrow some other moves from post-Ocarina entries besides the Phantom Slash - although the so-called "iconic rapier fighting style" has actually never been seen in action. And yes, I also think that it would have been better if Zelda had kept the Light Arrow. But 1) she still has moves coming explicitely from one of her games, far more explictely than Ganondorf's specials
Their explicit in name, but not really function. Tell me honestly, would you think it any better if Ganondorf's Dark Dive was renamed to use the same Japanese characters as Link's Thunder Spell in Zelda II? I don't think that would truly satisfy anyone, but it is pretty much exactly what Zelda's doing. Taking the name and very broad concept of something another character does and reinterpreting it as an original move.

2) the sealing power who replaces it is also something strongly associated with her, although not as much : in a Link to the Past, she must be sacrified so the seal would break ; in Ocarina of Time, she's the one initating the "sealness" ; and in Breath of the Wild, she's been sealing Ganon for a whole hundred years. So it's not like it had been replaced by something out of context.
True, her current final smash is not something completely random and does fit her. But it did replace something that I think would arguably be more associated with her, and something that I'd certainly gauge as more reminiscent of what she actually does when actively fighting in gameplay in several games. But like I said, I'm not exactly calling for Zelda to get her light arrows back. I don't demand characters be 100% accurate to their own games, Smash is a fighting game first and foremost, not a museum for character attacks. Adding in more faithful elements to a character is not something that should be done at the cost of compromising a moveset that works. That's why I'm so keen to see custom specials return in a more expansive form, as it allows more freedom of representation without compromising what already exists.

Why dismiss the times when Ganondorf uses the Dead Man Volley as someone else, Aghanim or Zelda ? It's still the same person. Zelda is not the one deadmanvolleying you, Ganondorf is. Yuga utilises Ganon's power to do. And Ganon's Phantoms are practically Ganon's shade, something like a part of himself, so I really think that counts. One way or another, it's almost all the time associated with Ganon(dorf). Like you say, even if this move was only "a large part" of his first and most striking final fight, it would be enough to give it to him, but it's much more than that. The fact that other bosses in Zelda utilise it only reinforce the idea that this move is "iconic" to the Zelda franchise and therefore should be seen in Smash. No, Sakurai, that doesn't mean you have to make the Cubus Sisters playable !!
I don't dismiss it, I say it for what it is. A tangential relation. My point isn't that Ganondorf can't or shouldn't get the Dead Man's Volley, it would make absolute sense if he did. No, my point is that I don't think Ganondorf requires it to be accurately represented in a game. I don't consider Ganondorf in The Wind Waker a bad or strange depiction of the character because he never throws around lightning balls. Or, actually, for a better comparison because it's also an ensemble of playable characters game, Ganondorf doesn't have anything resembling Dead Man's Volley in Hyrule Warriors (the closest would be the projectiles he launches when using Warlock Punch, but they're just generic projectiles that don't even bounce around or anything, they're not even made of lightning), yet that incarnation of the character was praised as one of the best represenations of him by many fans.

But while they have some in-game resemblance, they're practically in-name-only adaptations of those moves. You're just reaching for straws trying to justify that they are canon, when in fact all they have is the name.
So side note not really related to the thread, but I'd actually really like it if a character did have a move that resembles how Farore's Wind originally worked. Namely a two stage move where you first set up a recovery spot, and then can warp to it from anywhere, making for a recovery that will save you no matter how far you're flung, but has a somewhat predictable place to reappear. I think it'd make for a very interesting take on a recovery move that could be utilized in fun ways during general combat. Now I don't think Zelda herself should necessairly get it, as Farore's Wind works fine on her moveset as is, and in concept it is closest to the original spell in concept of the three, but I would like to see it in general on some character. I've speculated on it for several mages from the Fire Emblem series using the rewarp staff, even a Pikmin character could use it due to the way their spaceships work. No strong conclusion to this, it's just an idea for a move that Smash hasn't done yet that I'd like to see.
 
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