What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

[Quillion]

A fixed-knockback keepaway wouldn't hurt for Stone.

And about ice, I think that should be universally reworked as a system that some characters can take advantage of rather than essentially being an effect. If you continuously hammer an opponent with ice attacks, ice will build up on their model until they are frozen and immobilized. Immobilization attacks are a tricky beast in Smash to begin with, but I think that kind of system could allow for Samus to get some sort of ice attack and Ice Climbers to use their ice more effectively.

That said, I don't think Kirby should have it.

 

[Jotari]

A fixed-knockback keepaway wouldn't hurt for Stone.

And about ice, I think that should be universally reworked as a system that some characters can take advantage of rather than essentially being an effect. If you continuously hammer an opponent with ice attacks, ice will build up on their model until they are frozen and immobilized. Immobilization attacks are a tricky beast in Smash to begin with, but I think that kind of system could allow for Samus to get some sort of ice attack and Ice Climbers to use their ice more effectively.

That said, I don't think Kirby should have it.

That's not a terrible idea. You could still retain things like Mr Freeze that auto ices opponents as a result too.

 

[Flik]

This move for Chrom and Lucina, probably because it would give Chrom a better recovery and make Lucina more different than Marth, and we can't have either.

 

[Perkilator]

I did a Sonic rework that makes him more faithful to what he does in the games.

Spoiler: Sonic rework

Intro: Sonic Spin Dashes from the foreground onto the stage and strikes a pose.

Stance/Idle 1: Sonic’s idle pose from Sonic Rush
Idle 2: Sonic strikes an “I’m waiting” pose with an annoyed look
Idle 3: Sonic looks at the camera and wiggles his finger

Notable Palette Swaps:
1. Sonic the Hedgehog (default)
2. Classic Sonic (cyan; cuffs resemble the white Chaos Emerald)
3. Tails (yellow; cuffs resemble the blue Chaos Emerald)
4. Knuckles the Echidna (red; cuffs resemble the green Chaos Emerald)
5. Shadow the Hedgehog (black/red; cuffs resemble the yellow Chaos Emerald)
6. Silver the Hedgehog (gray; cuffs resemble the cyan Chaos Emerald)
7. Jet the Hawk (green; cuffs resemble the red Chaos Emerald)
8. NiGHTS (lavender; cuffs resemble the purple Chaos Emerald)

Walk: Sonic does a casual jog
Dash: Sonic does what he does best, which is run at the speed of sound
Damage: His damage animation from the Classic games
Jump: His jump from the games
Crouch: HIs crouch from the games

Normal Attacks
Jab: P / PP / PPK; Sonic performs a 3-hit combo (7%, small knockback), but with a rapid punch in between (1% each hit, small knockback)
Forward+A: Horse Kick; Sonic turns around for a second to kick the opponent (9%, OK knockback)
Down+A: Split Kick; Sonic kicks on both sides of himself (6%, small knockback)
Up+A: Skip Kick; Sonic performs a 540 kick with both legs (8%, OK knockback

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Insta-shield; A single white circle appears around Sonic, knocking away opponents (9%, OK knockback)
Air Forward+A: Sonic Rocket; Sonic performs a diagonally downwards kick in the air (11% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: Humming Top; Sonic performs a backwards spin kick (12%, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: Sonic Updraft; Sonic kicks opponents into the air with a somersault kick (11%, OK knockback)
Air Down+A: Stomp; Sonic stomps straight down as he plummets towards it at high speeds (8% with a meteor effect, OK knockback), leaving a small shockwave upon landing (6%, small knockback)

Dash Attack: Super Skid; Sonic slides along the ground at high speeds (9%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Sonic Eagle; Sonic gets up and performs an overhead axe kick (11%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Dizzy Spin; Sonic Spin Dashes back and forth (7%, small knockback)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Wind-Up Punch; Sonic winds up and punches the opponent (17%, OK knockback)
Up+A: Short Spin Attack; Sonic jumps up while performing a Spin Dash (16%, OK knockback)
Down+A: Sonic Flare; Sonic uses breakdance moves to hit opponents multiple times (21%, medium knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Sonic grabs the opponent with two hands
Pummel: Grab Kneebutt; Sonic quickly pummels the opponent with his knee (1%)
Forwards+Throw: Close Kick; Sonic nonchalantly kicks the opponent like a soccer ball (7%, small knockback)
Down+Throw: Double Spin; Sonic pins the opponent on the ground and Spin Dashes into them multiple times (9%, OK knockback)
Back+Throw: Spin Throw; Sonic quickly backflips multiple times before performing the tomoe nage (11%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Hedgehog Needle: Sonic heaves the opponent upwards before stabbing them with his quills (9%, OK knockback)

Special Moves
B : Homing Attack; Sonic curls into a ball and homes in on the nearest opponent.

• Tapping B has Sonic home in quickly (10%, OK knockback)
• Holding B has Sonic charge up before homing in with a powerful strike, albeit with some endlag (20%, medium knockback)

B + Forwards : Boost; Sonic speeds forward in a short burst (15%, OK knockback), stopping immediately after. When used in midair, Sonic is slightly pointed diagonally downward.
B + Up : Spring Jump; Sonic uses a spring to jump in the air, and he can move freely afterwards.
B + Down : Spin Dash; Sonic charges himself in a ball to dash towards opponents (14%, OK knockback). He can also use it as the Drop Dash in midair (9%, OK knockback).

Final Smash: Super Sonic; Sonic turns into Super Sonic and has the ability to move around freely, ramming into any opponents in his path (20%, OK knockback)

Gimmick: N/A

Taunts
1: Sonic does a front flip, then crosses arms with his index finger pointing out while making a teasing clicking tune, which forms into one of his signature poses.
2: “Too slow!” Sonic runs in place doing a figure-8 peel dash
1+2: Says "C'mon, step it up!" while performing a windmill, similar to his victory animation in Sonic Advance 3.

Winposes (credit goes here for the first one)
1: Sonic runs past a goal post that shows his face saying “Piece of cake!”
2: Sonic break dances while saying “Let’s do that again some time!”
3: Sonic sprints to the right and back to the left before stopping, giving a thumbs-up and saying “That was almost too easy!”

Applause: Sonic claps for the opponent.
Icon: The Sonic head logo, with Sonic’s eyes
Boxing Ring Title: The Blue Blur
Star K.O.: “NOooooo…!”
Victory Music: What else?
Kirby Hat: Sonic’s quills

 

[Jotari]

This move for Chrom and Lucina, probably because it would give Chrom a better recovery and make Lucina more different than Marth, and we can't have either.

I thought it was going to be the jump and tumbling attack they both do right after that. Which they also use in their crit animation (iirc). Though in general I do think Double Edged Dance is the thing that most should go from Roy and Chrom's moveset. It's not a bad move, of course, but feels just a bit too specific to Marth and open to the critisism of "four Fire Emblem characters with the same moveset". The neutral and down specials are generic enough in concept to not have this issue.

On the subject of Chrom and Lucina, post Awakening games have really started associating Lucina with bows. She's got several bow alts in Heroes, used a Bow in Code Name Steam and it looks like she'll be using one in the upcoming Engage. Chrom also has been using lances more regularly and could even use them in his default class in Awakening. It's be nice to see them get a bow or a lance for one of their specials. A while back someone was making the claim that the should put more effort into giving clones different specials to make them feel unique. We all know regular A attacks are pretty much more important when it comes to differentiating and making useful characters, but specials are flashier, so just altering one or two specials is going to feel like a completely different character even if the moveset is otherwise the same. Just look at how no one really considers Jigglypuff and Kirby clones, even though they shared a lot of the same movies for years, because they always had different specials.

 

[Quillion]

I did a Sonic rework that makes him more faithful to what he does in the games.

Spoiler: Sonic rework

Intro: Sonic Spin Dashes from the foreground onto the stage and strikes a pose.

Stance/Idle 1: Sonic’s idle pose from Sonic Rush
Idle 2: Sonic strikes an “I’m waiting” pose with an annoyed look
Idle 3: Sonic looks at the camera and wiggles his finger

Notable Palette Swaps:
1. Sonic the Hedgehog (default)
2. Classic Sonic (cyan; cuffs resemble the white Chaos Emerald)
3. Tails (yellow; cuffs resemble the blue Chaos Emerald)
4. Knuckles the Echidna (red; cuffs resemble the green Chaos Emerald)
5. Shadow the Hedgehog (black/red; cuffs resemble the yellow Chaos Emerald)
6. Silver the Hedgehog (gray; cuffs resemble the cyan Chaos Emerald)
7. Jet the Hawk (green; cuffs resemble the red Chaos Emerald)
8. NiGHTS (lavender; cuffs resemble the purple Chaos Emerald)

Walk: Sonic does a casual jog
Dash: Sonic does what he does best, which is run at the speed of sound
Damage: His damage animation from the Classic games
Jump: His jump from the games
Crouch: HIs crouch from the games

Normal Attacks
Jab: P / PP / PPK; Sonic performs a 3-hit combo (7%, small knockback), but with a rapid punch in between (1% each hit, small knockback)
Forward+A: Horse Kick; Sonic turns around for a second to kick the opponent (9%, OK knockback)
Down+A: Split Kick; Sonic kicks on both sides of himself (6%, small knockback)
Up+A: Skip Kick; Sonic performs a 540 kick with both legs (8%, OK knockback

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Insta-shield; A single white circle appears around Sonic, knocking away opponents (9%, OK knockback)
Air Forward+A: Sonic Rocket; Sonic performs a diagonally downwards kick in the air (11% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: Humming Top; Sonic performs a backwards spin kick (12%, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: Sonic Updraft; Sonic kicks opponents into the air with a somersault kick (11%, OK knockback)
Air Down+A: Stomp; Sonic stomps straight down as he plummets towards it at high speeds (8% with a meteor effect, OK knockback), leaving a small shockwave upon landing (6%, small knockback)

Dash Attack: Super Skid; Sonic slides along the ground at high speeds (9%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Sonic Eagle; Sonic gets up and performs an overhead axe kick (11%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Dizzy Spin; Sonic Spin Dashes back and forth (7%, small knockback)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Wind-Up Punch; Sonic winds up and punches the opponent (17%, OK knockback)
Up+A: Short Spin Attack; Sonic jumps up while performing a Spin Dash (16%, OK knockback)
Down+A: Sonic Flare; Sonic uses breakdance moves to hit opponents multiple times (21%, medium knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Sonic grabs the opponent with two hands
Pummel: Grab Kneebutt; Sonic quickly pummels the opponent with his knee (1%)
Forwards+Throw: Close Kick; Sonic nonchalantly kicks the opponent like a soccer ball (7%, small knockback)
Down+Throw: Double Spin; Sonic pins the opponent on the ground and Spin Dashes into them multiple times (9%, OK knockback)
Back+Throw: Spin Throw; Sonic quickly backflips multiple times before performing the tomoe nage (11%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Hedgehog Needle: Sonic heaves the opponent upwards before stabbing them with his quills (9%, OK knockback)

Special Moves
B : Homing Attack; Sonic curls into a ball and homes in on the nearest opponent.

• Tapping B has Sonic home in quickly (10%, OK knockback)
• Holding B has Sonic charge up before homing in with a powerful strike, albeit with some endlag (20%, medium knockback)

B + Forwards : Boost; Sonic speeds forward in a short burst (15%, OK knockback), stopping immediately after. When used in midair, Sonic is slightly pointed diagonally downward.
B + Up : Spring Jump; Sonic uses a spring to jump in the air, and he can move freely afterwards.
B + Down : Spin Dash; Sonic charges himself in a ball to dash towards opponents (14%, OK knockback). He can also use it as the Drop Dash in midair (9%, OK knockback).

Final Smash: Super Sonic; Sonic turns into Super Sonic and has the ability to move around freely, ramming into any opponents in his path (20%, OK knockback)

Gimmick: N/A

Taunts
1: Sonic does a front flip, then crosses arms with his index finger pointing out while making a teasing clicking tune, which forms into one of his signature poses.
2: “Too slow!” Sonic runs in place doing a figure-8 peel dash
1+2: Says "C'mon, step it up!" while performing a windmill, similar to his victory animation in Sonic Advance 3.

Winposes (credit goes here for the first one)
1: Sonic runs past a goal post that shows his face saying “Piece of cake!”
2: Sonic break dances while saying “Let’s do that again some time!”
3: Sonic sprints to the right and back to the left before stopping, giving a thumbs-up and saying “That was almost too easy!”

Applause: Sonic claps for the opponent.
Icon: The Sonic head logo, with Sonic’s eyes
Boxing Ring Title: The Blue Blur
Star K.O.: “NOooooo…!”
Victory Music: What else?
Kirby Hat: Sonic’s quills

Looks pretty similar to the moveset semi-revamps given to Sonic in Smash Flash 2 and Crusade.

 

[BowserKing]

Another change here.

Have Squirtles Hydro Pump actually do damage, like in the Pokémon games. At least have it deal 30% when fully charged.

 

[Quillion]

Another change here.

Have Squirtles Hydro Pump actually do damage, like in the Pokémon games. At least have it deal 30% when fully charged.

Agreed. Both that and FLUDD could at least have 8-15 unfliniching damage + the current windbox.

Then again, I just want Mario to lose FLUDD entirely.

 

[Arthur97]

I thought it was going to be the jump and tumbling attack they both do right after that. Which they also use in their crit animation (iirc). Though in general I do think Double Edged Dance is the thing that most should go from Roy and Chrom's moveset. It's not a bad move, of course, but feels just a bit too specific to Marth and open to the critisism of "four Fire Emblem characters with the same moveset". The neutral and down specials are generic enough in concept to not have this issue.

On the subject of Chrom and Lucina, post Awakening games have really started associating Lucina with bows. She's got several bow alts in Heroes, used a Bow in Code Name Steam and it looks like she'll be using one in the upcoming Engage. Chrom also has been using lances more regularly and could even use them in his default class in Awakening. It's be nice to see them get a bow or a lance for one of their specials. A while back someone was making the claim that the should put more effort into giving clones different specials to make them feel unique. We all know regular A attacks are pretty much more important when it comes to differentiating and making useful characters, but specials are flashier, so just altering one or two specials is going to feel like a completely different character even if the moveset is otherwise the same. Just look at how no one really considers Jigglypuff and Kirby clones, even though they shared a lot of the same movies for years, because they always had different specials.

A decent amount of Kirby and Jigglypuff's normals have also been different in recent history, but I get the idea. The inverse is true with Fox and Wolf and Ness and Lucas who have very different movesets, but are sometimes considered clones or semi-clones. Especially bad in Lucas' case where his specials despite sharing names often have significant differences.

As for Chrom and Lucina specifically, I have some ideas for them, but one in particular is their forward smash. I think they could be their critical hits from Awakening. Lucina does a spin in hers so it could have a weak hit to lead into the stronger hit while Chrom doesn't have that, but makes up for it with more power. Additionally, they have animations that could work nicely for dash attacks with Lucina reeling back and doing a sliding stab and Chrom doing a sliding upward slice.

Not a move, but Lucina really should have her idle stance. It's fairly unique and yet goes completely unused in Smash. And redo her voice lines.

 

[Jotari]

A decent amount of Kirby and Jigglypuff's normals have also been different in recent history, but I get the idea. The inverse is true with Fox and Wolf and Ness and Lucas who have very different movesets, but are sometimes considered clones or semi-clones. Especially bad in Lucas' case where his specials despite sharing names often have significant differences.

As for Chrom and Lucina specifically, I have some ideas for them, but one in particular is their forward smash. I think they could be their critical hits from Awakening. Lucina does a spin in hers so it could have a weak hit to lead into the stronger hit while Chrom doesn't have that, but makes up for it with more power. Additionally, they have animations that could work nicely for dash attacks with Lucina reeling back and doing a sliding stab and Chrom doing a sliding upward slice.

Not a move, but Lucina really should have her idle stance. It's fairly unique and yet goes completely unused in Smash. And redo her voice lines.

Yeah, a lot of Jigglypuff's and Kirby's moves have been changed since (I think specifically) Brawl. But so too have the other clones. In addition to the ones you've noted, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have almost zero moves in common now, it's just some aerials and the specials, yet Ganondorf is still branded as a Falcon Clone even now. If they had just changed even Warlock Punch to Shadow Ball or Fox's Reflector back in the day then it would change how people perceive the character entirely.

It would be funny, though, if Chrom and Lucina did share specials with each other, while retaining their Marth and Roy standard attacks. As that would make them effectively clones of two separate characters.

There was also another move from the same game that struck me as useful for a neutral air...but I kind of procrastinated a tonne and forgot. I think it might have been that games incarnation of Ice (though a freezing neutral air might feel a bit too weird for a basic character like Kirby).

I remember what move I was thinking of here, for Kirby. His standard Beam ability could work well as either a forward or back aerial. You know, the ability he gets from Waddle Dees. ONe of his most basic powers in his game, but not really interesting enough to be a special. Just functionally given the very specific arcing attack it has, it could work well for an aerial. Or possibly an up tilt, though that would be changing it from how it functions in its own game.

 

[Geno Boost]

missing any fairy type moves
lack of any move based on super princess peach
lack of any move based on Pac-man world

 

[Jotari]

missing any fairy type moves
lack of any move based on super princess peach
lack of any move based on Pac-man world

I think Fairy Wind could be implemented to give Jigglypuff a proper recovery. Of course Sing is absolutely mandatory, so it would raise the question what to do with that. I suppose it could be moved to neutral special (Roll Out is considered pretty useless, right?). Or, preferably (at least IMO), custom specials. OF course you could put some sparkles or diamonds on any of Jigglypuff's moves and call it a fairy type attack. As the nature of Pokemon as a turn based rpg with generic animations meaning converting an attack to Smash is mostly just a name and aesthetic as opposed to mechanical function (with some exceptions, Roll Out, Skull Bash etc).

 

[Geno Boost]

Is also missing his most iconic move basically throwing a barrel or using it to launch himself

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, a lot of Jigglypuff's and Kirby's moves have been changed since (I think specifically) Brawl. But so too have the other clones. In addition to the ones you've noted, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have almost zero moves in common now, it's just some aerials and the specials, yet Ganondorf is still branded as a Falcon Clone even now. If they had just changed even Warlock Punch to Shadow Ball or Fox's Reflector back in the day then it would change how people perceive the character entirely.

It would be funny, though, if Chrom and Lucina did share specials with each other, while retaining their Marth and Roy standard attacks. As that would make them effectively clones of two separate characters.




I remember what move I was thinking of here, for Kirby. His standard Beam ability could work well as either a forward or back aerial. You know, the ability he gets from Waddle Dees. ONe of his most basic powers in his game, but not really interesting enough to be a special. Just functionally given the very specific arcing attack it has, it could work well for an aerial. Or possibly an up tilt, though that would be changing it from how it functions in its own game.

Ganondorf also shares his dash attack, most throws, and the tilts are still kinda derivative. The new smash attacks aren't exactly unique while they aren't clone from Captain Falcon, they're cloned from Ike and Cloud instead so they still aren't unique to him. Plus, all but one aerial is quite a bit. That said, if he did get a new moveset, I'm on board with him keeping Flame Choke.

And Lucas and Wolf were never all that similar. They didn't really need Luigification as they were fairly unique from the get go. Think the only really change for Ness and Lucas wasn't even Lucas getting a new move, it's Ness getting a new up air. Wolf might have actually been made more similar to Fox with his new nair being closer to his than his Brawl one (which was admittedly probably cloned from either Pikachu or Fox). Wolf especially in Brawl was a bit weird. Like, his up smash is unique for an up smash, but it may have been a cloned animation from an up air from what I read.

 

[Jotari]

Ganondorf also shares his dash attack, most throws, and the tilts are still kinda derivative. The new smash attacks aren't exactly unique while they aren't clone from Captain Falcon, they're cloned from Ike and Cloud instead so they still aren't unique to him. Plus, all but one aerial is quite a bit. That said, if he did get a new moveset, I'm on board with him keeping Flame Choke.

But on this whole perception thing, that's also the case with Ganondorf, Falcon and Samus. Yeah, seriously. Aside from the aerials, all the things Ganondorf shares with Falcon he also shares with Samus. All three of them have the same tackling dash attack and up tilt (though obviously Ganondorf's up tilt is functionally very different) and down throw. Ganondorf's up throw is even more similar to Samus's than Falcon's (though all three of them are unique moves, though Ganondorf and Falcon do share a back throw). But you'll never see anyone suggesting Samus is a Falcon or Ganondorf clone, because, well, obviously they're not. But I think if they had changed Ganondorf's specials (which I personally don't actually want), then no one would be thinking Ganondorf and Falcon are clones after Brawl.

 

[Arthur97]

But on this whole perception thing, that's also the case with Ganondorf, Falcon and Samus. Yeah, seriously. Aside from the aerials, all the things Ganondorf shares with Falcon he also shares with Samus. All three of them have the same tackling dash attack and up tilt (though obviously Ganondorf's up tilt is functionally very different) and down throw. Ganondorf's up throw is even more similar to Samus's than Falcon's (though all three of them are unique moves, though Ganondorf and Falcon do share a back throw). But you'll never see anyone suggesting Samus is a Falcon or Ganondorf clone, because, well, obviously they're not. But I think if they had changed Ganondorf's specials (which I personally don't actually want), then no one would be thinking Ganondorf and Falcon are clones after Brawl.

Samus? They share a shoulder tackle. I wouldn't say they share a down throw. They aren't literally sharing an animation which for throws you generally need to call it a cloned move considering how generic some of those could be. That's also ignoring the aerials which are very, very cloned from Falcon save for fair. And even all of the moves that aren't Falcon clones anymore aren't exactly Ganondorf either. Can you honestly look at his moveset and say it's particularly fitting? Or that it's what they'd give him if they made him from scratch?

Sad part is though, you might be right about the perception due to how over weighted special moves are in public perception.

 

[Quillion]

Canondorf/Falcondorf arguments are so circular.

Canondorf fans argue that Ganondorf isn't faithful to his series, Falcondorf fans argue that he has clear animation references, Canondorf fans argue that he's still derived from Falcon, Falcondorf fans argue that he does use Falcon-like brawling attacks in his own series, Canondorf fans argue that he's not faithful to his series...

TBH, I just don't know if Canondorf fans want Ganondorf to be unique from Falcon or faithful to his series because of this.

I'll just say that representing Zelda as a whole in Smash is a tricky beast since while Smash is chained by a desire to bring back as much veterans as possible wholesale, the Zelda franchise constantly tries to give its main recurring characters new things to do. They're clashing philosophies.

 

[Arthur97]

Canondorf/Falcondorf arguments are so circular.

Canondorf fans argue that Ganondorf isn't faithful to his series, Falcondorf fans argue that he has clear animation references, Canondorf fans argue that he's still derived from Falcon, Falcondorf fans argue that he does use Falcon-like brawling attacks in his own series, Canondorf fans argue that he's not faithful to his series...

TBH, I just don't know if Canondorf fans want Ganondorf to be unique from Falcon or faithful to his series because of this.

I'll just say that representing Zelda as a whole in Smash is a tricky beast since while Smash is chained by a desire to bring back as much veterans as possible wholesale, the Zelda franchise constantly tries to give its main recurring characters new things to do. They're clashing philosophies.

Ah yes, who can forget Ganondorf wizard footing across the battlefield. The only instances I can think of where Ganondorf attacks bare handed is slamming the ground in OoT to break the floor (still a magic attack it would seem), a backhand in WW, and the punt in TP (pretty much his f-tilt). The latter of which are smaller parts of an armed moveset. He's a mage in OoT, dual wields swords in WW, and duels with a single sword in TT. He has never been a brawler in the Zelda series. He was a late addition to Melee cause he had a similar body type to Captain Falcon, fine. The problem is Sakurai is so adamant about not changing him. Even worse when you could keep the moveset more or less on Blood Falcon who is literally a clone of Captain Falcon.

 

[Diddy Kong]

We can argue Ganondorf all we want but THE BIGGEST omission in movesets is still DK lacking a barrel throw. It's the one significant thing the classic DK was known for in the Arcade game, and it's a staple in DKC games too. It's in the ape's instincts to throw a barrel at enemies when he sees one.

And it would give DK's moveset extra appeal, cause you can call it a "projectile" all you want, but this isn't gonna be a fast type of projectile, it likely will have quite some start up, and that fits DK's gameplay fine. He'll still needs to keep his "zoning" in mind with such a projectile, and it would pack a serious punch I imagine. He could also follow up his stronger attacks with a barrel throw where else he couldn't follow the combo up further due to lack of speed or the moves sending his opponents too far away.

It fits his gameplay better than Headbutt, which is entirely situational , looks goofy and is just pulled out of air in terms of inspiration.

I also really feel Yoshi needs to actually be able to eat stuff and create egg projectiles out of that. I don't think Neutral B and Up B are good enough reflections of this, even if they where up to the point of Brawl or so. I feel the same about Kirby and his Copy ability, whereas it should just be Swallow first, Kirby needs to eat stuff and spit it back out towards his enemies, Copy their abilities second. But both aren't as criminal as DK, because the abilities are still there.

 

[Jotari]

Samus? They share a shoulder tackle. I wouldn't say they share a down throw. They aren't literally sharing an animation which for throws you generally need to call it a cloned move considering how generic some of those could be. That's also ignoring the aerials which are very, very cloned from Falcon save for fair. And even all of the moves that aren't Falcon clones anymore aren't exactly Ganondorf either. Can you honestly look at his moveset and say it's particularly fitting? Or that it's what they'd give him if they made him from scratch?

Sad part is though, you might be right about the perception due to how over weighted special moves are in public perception.

I have extensive opinions on Ganondorf's here.

Redesinging Ganondorf (but keeping him the same)

Other redesigns :ultganondorf: https://smashboards.com/threads/redesinging-ganondorf-but-keeping-him-the-same.513191/ :ultsamus: https://smashboards.com/threads/new-melee-moves-for-samus.515562/ :ultlink: https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-link-but-keeping-him-the-same.518191/...

smashboards.com

And while I'm up for arguing what should or shouldn't be changed (and how much the animations with Falcon and Samus are similar/different), that is a more appropriate place. In how he relates to this topic, yes, there's a lot of him missing, but so too is there for a lot of characters. That's the whole point of this thread.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Another one: Pikachu and Thunderbolt

 

[Oracle Link]

Because i wanna talk about Kirby ill just list all the Disregarded Moves:
Kirby Himself has these Missing Moves:

• SWORD its his most used and most iconic Ability true we have the ultra sword but i think atleast a tilt should be sword
• His Down A Should be his Well Down a From the Kirby Games the Slide Kick
• And for a character that is defined by Flight its weird how hes outclassed by Sephiroth, Sora (Who can only Glide/ dash in most levels) and many others Kirbys Recovery should be top tier!

WELL

• Meta Knight just MEta Knight he has barely any moves he did in the Kirby Games, Abilitys from the Sword Copy Ability or Specials reflecting stuff from Prior Kirby GAmes
• His Final Smash was Changed one game after it appeared in a Kirby Game Repülaced by something stupid! Either Give him Galaxia Darkness Back or let him use mach Tornado For Damn sake

Dedede feels pretty decent considering that most of his moves are when hes Possesed

• But his Jet Hammer Charge should be Replaced By MAsked Dededes HAmmer Spin
• Gordow Throw should get an alt where He shoots Rockets
• And MAybe let him pick up a pillar for hjis final Smash that seems reasonable enough
• also his costumes are a Travesty we need: Shadow Dedede, Masked dedede and his Foirgotten Land/ RTDL design!

 

[Oracle Link]

I think he does it first though, as early as Nightmare in Dreamland.

NAh Kirby does it first in Kirby Superstar! Altho its not piercing there!

 

[Jotari]

Another one: Pikachu and Thunderbolt

That one could be as easily fixed as renaming his neutral special or forward smash. But really, is there much need to have an official Thunderbolt attack, beyond pedantic necessity? Thunderbolt is a basic thunder attack. Pikachu uses basic thunder attacks. It's there even if none of his attacks are officially called such. Pikachu, in that regard, is being represented.

For a related Pikachu move, I'm sure it's been noted already on this thread at some point, but Skull Bash should really be replaced with Iron Tail. Pikachu hasn't been able to use Skull Bash since Gen 1 while Iron Tail has become pretty associated with Pikachu, at least in the anime.

Because i wanna talk about Kirby ill just list all the Disregarded Moves:
Kirby Himself has these Missing Moves:

• SWORD its his most used and most iconic Ability true we have the ultra sword but i think atleast a tilt should be sword
• His Down A Should be his Well Down a From the Kirby Games the Slide Kick
• And for a character that is defined by Flight its weird how hes outclassed by Sephiroth, Sora (Who can only Glide/ dash in most levels) and many others Kirbys Recovery should be top tier!

I've posted some Kirby ideas in the last few pages, but I think it would bode well to just collect them here.
:

• Give him the Beam ability for either his forward aerial or back aerial
• Give him a hit box upon exiting Stone like in Crystal Shards, making the attack a bit safer.
• *Alternatively remap Stone from his down special to his down aerial, because let's face it, it's a pretty useless move and any light use it can get is by using it in the air.
• On the subject of the sword, it's easy to say "it should be a tilt", but what tilt should it replace? Kirby just whipping out a sword for a forward tilt would be a tad...idk, underwhelming? The closest move he has to sword now would be his neutral aerial as it's already a spinning attack, and if he gets beam for his forward or back aerial (and possibly stone as a down aerial) then there's more of a unifying theme of having more colourful "powers" attacks on his aerials.
• I was wondering if cutter could be made more like it is in actual Kirby games, at least when used on the ground. Typically Kirby doesn't just fly up in the air like he's just copied Ike, he does a few slashes first, having the jump as the finisher of a combo. And just in general I'm kind of a fan of up specials working slightly different on the ground and in the air.

WELL

• Meta Knight just MEta Knight he has barely any moves he did in the Kirby Games, Abilitys from the Sword Copy Ability or Specials reflecting stuff from Prior Kirby GAmes
• His Final Smash was Changed one game after it appeared in a Kirby Game Repülaced by something stupid! Either Give him Galaxia Darkness Back or let him use mach Tornado For Damn sake

I'm just not sure how well Meta Knight's actual attacks would work for Meta Knight. He's actually a bit like Ganondorf, only more low key, in that he has a specific style that is working well for him. The two classic Meta Knight attacks that come to mind for me are his down thrust attack, which could be a perfect stall and drop down aerial, and a sword beam attack where he shoots forward a wave of fire which could work as a special. Functionally they could definitely work for Smash, but would they really help Meta Knight's moveset and focus on his strengths? I don't play Meta Knight a whole lot, or even much at all, but I kind of feel like those attacks wouldn't suit the style that he's using already.

NAh Kirby does it first in Kirby Superstar! Altho its not piercing there!

You're going to have to remind me what I was referring to with that one.

 

[Oracle Link]

That one could be as easily fixed as renaming his neutral special or forward smash. But really, is there much need to have an official Thunderbolt attack, beyond pedantic necessity? Thunderbolt is a basic thunder attack. Pikachu uses basic thunder attacks. It's there even if none of his attacks are officially called such. Pikachu, in that regard, is being represented.

For a related Pikachu move, I'm sure it's been noted already on this thread at some point, but Skull Bash should really be replaced with Iron Tail. Pikachu hasn't been able to use Skull Bash since Gen 1 while Iron Tail has become pretty associated with Pikachu, at least in the anime.



I've posted some Kirby ideas in the last few pages, but I think it would bode well to just collect them here.
:

• Give him the Beam ability for either his forward aerial or back aerial
• Give him a hit box upon exiting Stone like in Crystal Shards, making the attack a bit safer.
• *Alternatively remap Stone from his down special to his down aerial, because let's face it, it's a pretty useless move and any light use it can get is by using it in the air.
• On the subject of the sword, it's easy to say "it should be a tilt", but what tilt should it replace? Kirby just whipping out a sword for a forward tilt would be a tad...idk, underwhelming? The closest move he has to sword now would be his neutral aerial as it's already a spinning attack, and if he gets beam for his forward or back aerial (and possibly stone as a down aerial) then there's more of a unifying theme of having more colourful "powers" attacks on his aerials.
• I was wondering if cutter could be made more like it is in actual Kirby games, at least when used on the ground. Typically Kirby doesn't just fly up in the air like he's just copied Ike, he does a few slashes first, having the jump as the finisher of a combo. And just in general I'm kind of a fan of up specials working slightly different on the ground and in the air.

I'm just not sure how well Meta Knight's actual attacks would work for Meta Knight. He's actually a bit like Ganondorf, only more low key, in that he has a specific style that is working well for him. The two classic Meta Knight attacks that come to mind for me are his down thrust attack, which could be a perfect stall and drop down aerial, and a sword beam attack where he shoots forward a wave of fire which could work as a special. Functionally they could definitely work for Smash, but would they really help Meta Knight's moveset and focus on his strengths? I don't play Meta Knight a whole lot, or even much at all, but I kind of feel like those attacks wouldn't suit the style that he's using already.


You're going to have to remind me what I was referring to with that one.

The Sword Stab Downwards You know the ones the Links Have!
And Speaking of Meta Knights Playstyle: A Final smash change wouldnt really change anything about his Playstyle and him spouting 2 Extra wings and then making random attacks midair is weird they could atleast make it the Upper Caliber its the same move functionally but its based on something Metaknight actually Does!

 

[Arthur97]

We can argue Ganondorf all we want but THE BIGGEST omission in movesets is still DK lacking a barrel throw. It's the one significant thing the classic DK was known for in the Arcade game, and it's a staple in DKC games too. It's in the ape's instincts to throw a barrel at enemies when he sees one.

And it would give DK's moveset extra appeal, cause you can call it a "projectile" all you want, but this isn't gonna be a fast type of projectile, it likely will have quite some start up, and that fits DK's gameplay fine. He'll still needs to keep his "zoning" in mind with such a projectile, and it would pack a serious punch I imagine. He could also follow up his stronger attacks with a barrel throw where else he couldn't follow the combo up further due to lack of speed or the moves sending his opponents too far away.

It fits his gameplay better than Headbutt, which is entirely situational , looks goofy and is just pulled out of air in terms of inspiration.

I also really feel Yoshi needs to actually be able to eat stuff and create egg projectiles out of that. I don't think Neutral B and Up B are good enough reflections of this, even if they where up to the point of Brawl or so. I feel the same about Kirby and his Copy ability, whereas it should just be Swallow first, Kirby needs to eat stuff and spit it back out towards his enemies, Copy their abilities second. But both aren't as criminal as DK, because the abilities are still there.

Eh, I can live without a barrel throw. It is somewhat represented in his unique ability to jump while carrying big items, barrels included.

 

[Geno Boost]

I find moveset really not fitting
Like I don’t get why he spawn ghosts in his smash attacks
Or why does he use mappy move in his up special and have Galaga grab
Like can you imagine Mario using Spawing Goomba in his smash attacks or use attacks that has nothing to do with Mario franchise
I would agree also have this kind of moveset but the difference is an established character and has moveset potential resources from his games which has been ignored

 

[Jotari]

I find moveset really not fitting
Like I don’t get why he spawn ghosts in his smash attacks
Or why does he use mappy move in his up special and have Galaga grab
Like can you imagine Mario using Spawing Goomba in his smash attacks or use attacks that has nothing to do with Mario franchise
I would agree also have this kind of moveset but the difference is an established character and has moveset potential resources from his games which has been ignored

I don't know much about Pacman beyond his original arcade game, can you expound on what moves could be used instead for those attacks?

 

[Arthur97]

Not sure about Smash attacks, but it is a bit odd he doesn't have a butt bounce or rev roll. The latter I'm not entirely sure where to fit. Wouldn't want to give up his side or neutral specials.

Up special I suppose could be replaced with a badoing, or however its spelled, but his current one is neat as a way to force a helpless state.

 

[Jotari]

Not sure about Smash attacks, but it is a bit odd he doesn't have a butt bounce or rev roll. The latter I'm not entirely sure where to fit. Wouldn't want to give up his side or neutral specials.

Up special I suppose could be replaced with a badoing, or however its spelled, but his current one is neat as a way to force a helpless state.

I've looked up Rev Roll and B-Doing. Rev Roll I think could work for his forward Smash, with the charging part of the attack matching the way it's charged in his own game. It wouldn't go nearly as far as (I assume) it does in his own game, but you could still make it a pretty far reaching Smash attack that fits it aesthetically. The B-Doing's, from that I can read and see on static images, look like they could be a 1-1 trade with his current Up Special, being nothing more than a visual swap.

 

[Arthur97]

I've looked up Rev Roll and B-Doing. Rev Roll I think could work for his forward Smash, with the charging part of the attack matching the way it's charged in his own game. It wouldn't go nearly as far as (I assume) it does in his own game, but you could still make it a pretty far reaching Smash attack that fits it aesthetically. The B-Doing's, from that I can read and see on static images, look like they could be a 1-1 trade with his current Up Special, being nothing more than a visual swap.

B-Doings are different in that at least generally, they don't wear out. It would essentially be one and done. They might could keep the consecutive bounces up to two, but it does lose the helpless state.

I suppose it could work as a forward smash ala Wario's Brawl one, but I don't think it's be the best fit. Rev Rolls would be kinda awkward to just...stop shortly after use. Like, this is a move that can be used to jump ramps. I don't think it's a very good fit. Besides, his smash attacks do at least reference Pac-Man.

That said, Butt Bouncing could be a nice down air or down special. Personally I'd probably take dair as I don't really like his current one.

 

[Jotari]

B-Doings are different in that at least generally, they don't wear out. It would essentially be one and done. They might could keep the consecutive bounces up to two, but it does lose the helpless state.

I don't really see that as an issue translating into Smash.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't really see that as an issue translating into Smash.

It wouldn't be an issue, it'd just be changed. Generally would be less unique, but it works.

 

[Perkilator]

Rev Roll I'd make the side special, and the Power Pellet I'd make the up special.

 

[Quillion]

I find moveset really not fitting
Like I don’t get why he spawn ghosts in his smash attacks
Or why does he use mappy move in his up special and have Galaga grab
Like can you imagine Mario using Spawing Goomba in his smash attacks or use attacks that has nothing to do with Mario franchise
I would agree also have this kind of moveset but the difference is an established character and has moveset potential resources from his games which has been ignored

I agree, but tbf, Namco didn't care for the Pac-Man World series circa Smash 4.

Now that Pac-Man World is back, Pac-Man's moveset will look jarring to newer fans, but I guess we can consider him yet another victim of Smash's need to keep movesets the same no matter what.

 

[StrangeKitten]

We can argue Ganondorf all we want but THE BIGGEST omission in movesets is still DK lacking a barrel throw. It's the one significant thing the classic DK was known for in the Arcade game, and it's a staple in DKC games too. It's in the ape's instincts to throw a barrel at enemies when he sees one.

And it would give DK's moveset extra appeal, cause you can call it a "projectile" all you want, but this isn't gonna be a fast type of projectile, it likely will have quite some start up, and that fits DK's gameplay fine. He'll still needs to keep his "zoning" in mind with such a projectile, and it would pack a serious punch I imagine. He could also follow up his stronger attacks with a barrel throw where else he couldn't follow the combo up further due to lack of speed or the moves sending his opponents too far away.

It fits his gameplay better than Headbutt, which is entirely situational , looks goofy and is just pulled out of air in terms of inspiration.

I also really feel Yoshi needs to actually be able to eat stuff and create egg projectiles out of that. I don't think Neutral B and Up B are good enough reflections of this, even if they where up to the point of Brawl or so. I feel the same about Kirby and his Copy ability, whereas it should just be Swallow first, Kirby needs to eat stuff and spit it back out towards his enemies, Copy their abilities second. But both aren't as criminal as DK, because the abilities are still there.

Additionally, DK can keep his headbutt even if his side special is changed, because his up air is pretty much the same animation. So just keep his up air lol.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the dev team might have thought DK would be too strong with a projectile and a good recovery, since he also gets to subvert some of the weaknesses of a heavy; he's very fast, and has huge disjoints. I don't think his moveset has aged well, which is probably the biggest issue with it. King Dedede gets a projectile and a decent recovery. King K Rool gets two projectiles and a good recovery. Ridley gets a projectile, good speed, roughly equivalent range, and a decent recovery. Incineroar gets what just might be the best recovery of the whole bunch. Bowser started off with atrocious speed, range, and recovery, but all that has been rectified as of Ultimate, on top of Flame Breath being a very good sorta-projectile.

So, I think adding barrels to DK's kit would make him a much better character, and he'd still be kept in check by most of the weaknesses he has now. Even if throwing barrels as a side b was slow and thus, had limited application in neutral, he'd still get a free 20% just by landing a few of them, which is huge for a heavy. It would also open up the option to play campy, could be thrown from up high in disadvantage, and could potentially be a tool to throw off of platforms and the ledge if it was able to roll downwards. It may also lead to some combos.

I also think his up B should be replaced by a blast barrel. Aerial Spinning Kong is very awkward and doesn't feel like a very DK move, in addition to being one of the poorer recoveries. A blast barrel recovery would be far better, allowing him to get far more use out of his very good edgeguarding tools. I'd imagine it would be similar to Fox's recovery, which is still somewhat exploitable.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Additionally, DK can keep his headbutt even if his side special is changed, because his up air is pretty much the same animation. So just keep his up air lol.

But the up air doesn't ground or have super armour. That's the point of the side B.

 

[StrangeKitten]

But the up air doesn't ground or have super armour. That's the point of the side B.

I am aware of that. And it is a decently useful move in DK's kit. I just think a barrel projectile would be even more useful. I wasn't trying to say that DK's up air is the same move or anything. Just that, if the dev team feels like a headbutt is a move DK should have, up air is also one, so he'd still have a move that headbutts if his side special was replaced.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Additionally, DK can keep his headbutt even if his side special is changed, because his up air is pretty much the same animation. So just keep his up air lol.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the dev team might have thought DK would be too strong with a projectile and a good recovery, since he also gets to subvert some of the weaknesses of a heavy; he's very fast, and has huge disjoints. I don't think his moveset has aged well, which is probably the biggest issue with it. King Dedede gets a projectile and a decent recovery. King K Rool gets two projectiles and a good recovery. Ridley gets a projectile, good speed, roughly equivalent range, and a decent recovery. Incineroar gets what just might be the best recovery of the whole bunch. Bowser started off with atrocious speed, range, and recovery, but all that has been rectified as of Ultimate, on top of Flame Breath being a very good sorta-projectile.

So, I think adding barrels to DK's kit would make him a much better character, and he'd still be kept in check by most of the weaknesses he has now. Even if throwing barrels as a side b was slow and thus, had limited application in neutral, he'd still get a free 20% just by landing a few of them, which is huge for a heavy. It would also open up the option to play campy, could be thrown from up high in disadvantage, and could potentially be a tool to throw off of platforms and the ledge if it was able to roll downwards. It may also lead to some combos.

I also think his up B should be replaced by a blast barrel. Aerial Spinning Kong is very awkward and doesn't feel like a very DK move, in addition to being one of the poorer recoveries. A blast barrel recovery would be far better, allowing him to get far more use out of his very good edgeguarding tools. I'd imagine it would be similar to Fox's recovery, which is still somewhat exploitable.

You summed it up pretty well. DK won't be too powerful with a projectile, he'd still have his weaknesses, and those are still very very big weaknesses and he has the worst disadvantage state of all the roster, and he's about the easiest to hit. Might as well give him good recovery to give him a fighting chance.

DK is worse than he ever was in Ultimate, and that's despite his great range, speed and even combos. He still doesn't really have much to approach, and has to get lucky hits in, which he can string lucky for him.

His moveset aged, but hasn't really been updated as much, and some veterans have it worse than others. I say Link is perfect now for example, Fox, Pikachu, Yoshi, Mario and even Samus all have very functionally great movesets , that even if they could have some updates still manage to represent their characteristics and unique abilities well.

DK not so much. Headbutt's ground burying properties could be added to the Hand Slap, make it so that that's what happens if you land the move up close, fits very well and gives it a necessary buff, or even niche usage, as who even uses Headbutt? Add the super armor on it and nothing of value is lost.

 

[Quillion]

Diddy Kong and StrangeKitten :

I think Spinning Kong can go to Dixie, but I still don't see how a projectile can fit into DK's moveset design.

Again, there's a reason why Sephiroth's slow, hard hitting disjoints and projectiles were tempered by being lightweight.