What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

[Arthur97]

I just remembered, a neat idea I saw talked about here and there in early Ultimate speculation (when more echo fighters was a reasonable expectation) was to take Melee Bowser's moveset (though of course, give it updates in hitboxes and animations to better gel with Ultimate) and give it to Dry Bowser. They did a similar thing with Young Link having Link's old moves (albeit faster but weaker) and Pichu having Pikachu's old moves. You'll probably disagree, but like I said, I love Melee Bowser's moveset, so I would love if they had done that, or if they do it for a future game. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that I'm aware of how bad Bowser was in Melee, but I think the moveset could work well enough if they had updated it well. Plus, Dry Bowser would retain Bowser's fast run speed (definitely exclude Bowser's old run from this lol) and frame 3 jumpsquat, where slow run speed and frame 8 jumpsquat held Melee Bowser back more than his moveset did anyway.

I think Dry Bowser could be diverted enough to be a semi clone or better. Lighter, obviously, but also taking advantage of the loose nature of dry bones. A bone toss special, blue fire that spits in fireballs rather than a steady stream, and then normals like maybe a dash attack like K. Rool's except he spins his torso around to hit with the spikey shell.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I really don't think one normalset would be deliberately designed to be better than another. Let the players decide which is better.

Smash favoring faster, string-heavy movesets is a systemic coincidence, not a deliberate decision.

And how fun would it be having multiple movesets to play with? Sounds like a ton of fun to me. And if you could change em per move, there would be a lot of combinations you could try out. I doubt they'll ever do it, since they kinda tried with custom moves, and that was a disaster. And it would be a lot of extra work that can and should go to just making new fighters, or polishing other aspects of the game. But it's a fun concept nonetheless. Imagine the hype if someone did well in tournament with (a) move(s) that are considered inferior? Definitely a fun thing to think about!

I think Dry Bowser could be diverted enough to be a semi clone or better. Lighter, obviously, but also taking advantage of the loose nature of dry bones. A bone toss special, blue fire that spits in fireballs rather than a steady stream, and then normals like maybe a dash attack like K. Rool's except he spins his torso around to hit with the spikey shell.

Yeah, there's a lot you could do with Dry Bowser! He might still be able to count as an echo even with a very diverted moveset, though. Echo fighters are called as such moreso because they match the proportions exactly of the fighter they're an echo of. The reason Isabelle isn't an echo of Villager is because her proportions are different. It's subtle, but they are.

 

[Arthur97]

And how fun would it be having multiple movesets to play with? Sounds like a ton of fun to me. And if you could change em per move, there would be a lot of combinations you could try out. I doubt they'll ever do it, since they kinda tried with custom moves, and that was a disaster. And it would be a lot of extra work that can and should go to just making new fighters, or polishing other aspects of the game. But it's a fun concept nonetheless. Imagine the hype if someone did well in tournament with (a) move(s) that are considered inferior? Definitely a fun thing to think about!


Yeah, there's a lot you could do with Dry Bowser! He might still be able to count as an echo even with a very diverted moveset, though. Echo fighters are called as such moreso because they match the proportions exactly of the fighter they're an echo of. The reason Isabelle isn't an echo of Villager is because her proportions are different. It's subtle, but they are.

That kinda goes out the window with Doc (his hat may not even have a hurtbox, but I could be wrong). I heard Isabelle wasn't considered one cause of personality though which is an even worse metric. Especially when you look at who the actual echoes are.

Actually, Dry Bowser isn't the only character thrown around as an echo that might be a waste as one (and I could go into more detail about him). I think Dark Meta Knight for example could be quite unique with a mix of his own stuff and moves that Meta Knight actually uses in games but doesn't in Smash (thank Star Allies for that one). However, the biggest wasted potential one people throw around might be Shadow. Like, he really doesn't need to be a Sonic echo.

That's not even considering the current echoes that definitely have potential. Lucina, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Dark Pit at least all have varying degrees of potential for their own movesets and should serve as cautionary tales (well, Lucina and Dark Pit at least) about wanting in favorites as echoes as Brawl's large scale effort to give clones that stayed on more unique movesets seems to have been a one time deal.

 

[Jotari]

Then let them be inconsistent with it. Again, BotW Link's design doesn't gel with the old Link in key ways from a canonical standpoint. TP Link as a BotW Link echo would almost be as different as Ken from Ryu.

No Link's design lines up with strict canonical designs. They all have the up thrust when only Zelda II Link had that. Link had a boomerang in Smash 64 when he had never used one as an adult at that point. Young Link uses his fire arrows and hookshot from Majora's Mask, yet also uses his sword and shield from Ocarina of Time. The character is an amalgamation. He always has been, and that's fine. Sure, they lean into the newer title a bit more than the the older ones, but they're still using designs. And as far as actual tangible differences between the Link of SSB4 and the Link of SSBU there are basically none. It's just the specials. Which could be customs themselves. Unless you're going to go turning Breath of the Wild Link into a weapon master using spears and giant hammers and the like, no, they wouldn't be like Ryu and Ken. They would be above Daisy and Peach and the Belmonts, but they would still functionally have the exact same moveset.

Hence why only SOME/A FEW of the characters should get that luxury. You seem to be stuck in the mindset that everyone should get equal custom options when it's best done for characters with enough history to make it work.

Because I think when you have an opinion on something you need to be consistent with that opinion. What is the problem? That Link has some old moves that could alienate players. What is the solution? Turn his old moveset into an echo. That is logic, sound logic, but if it applies to Link then it applies to everyone. There is no reason Link should be a special case. In fact, if he is to be treated as special, it should be in the opposite direction and he should be the last character to get such treatment as he's already in the game three times over.

I really don't think one normalset would be deliberately designed to be better than another. Let the players decide which is better.

Smash favoring faster, string-heavy movesets is a systemic coincidence, not a deliberate decision.

So if intentional improvement of a moveset (like Bowser got) isn't part of the point, then what is the point? To just maintain canon? You don't need to make an entire seperate moveset to adhere to canon. We've discussed how Zelda could get Light Arrows and landed on her Smash attacks as being a decent way to do it. We don't need to make an entire seperate Zelda moveset where she uses Light Arrows just to put Light Arrows in the game.

And speaking of Zelda, she actually is an example where her physical design is kind of getting in the way, as several of her moves, most noticeably her down smash, are animated around her wearing a dress. Which has stopped us getting Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild Zelda who wear different outfits.

 

[Quillion]

And as far as actual tangible differences between the Link of SSB4 and the Link of SSBU there are basically none.

BotW Link's a righty, presumably to mirror how the attack button is on the right on the controller while the button to shield is on the left. Link's historically a lefty until SS, and even non-3D games still adhere to this post-SS.

And before you say it's functionally identical again, I'd like to note:

1. Link being a lefty is something that many fans are attached to. Even Miyamoto is considering he is a lefty himself.
2. There was much outcry when a video game company representative stated that there's no point in having X other character when Y fulfills their function.

Because I think when you have an opinion on something you need to be consistent with that opinion. What is the problem? That Link has some old moves that could alienate players. What is the solution? Turn his old moveset into an echo. That is logic, sound logic, but if it applies to Link then it applies to everyone. There is no reason Link should be a special case. In fact, if he is to be treated as special, it should be in the opposite direction and he should be the last character to get such treatment as he's already in the game three times over.

You know what? I agree. In most cases, I'd rather just take the loss of a beloved old move, maybe let others or myself grieve and whine, and then move on. Get rid of FLUDD, move Spinning Kong to Dixie and give DK Barrel Cannon, give Samus pseudo-projectile normals, they can fit into existing designs and push out less fitting/canonical/optimal moves.

BUT, I do have reasons as to why Link should be a special exception:

1. Link is a different guy in most games, going through his own adventures that may or may not be lightly influenced by a chronologically earlier Link.
2. Smash 4 has a full TP-based model and animations ready to clean up and use in the future. That's a lot of work done already.
3. The noted moveset differences, which yes, includes BotW Link being a righty.

So I do think there is significant reason for multiple incarnations of Link to be on the roster. It's not too different from giving a variant of Marth's moveset to other sword-wielding Lords to both represent them and save development time.

So if intentional improvement of a moveset (like Bowser got) isn't part of the point, then what is the point? To just maintain canon? You don't need to make an entire seperate moveset to adhere to canon.

Having swappable normalsets (mostly) based on weapons is not to maintain canon, but to represent alternative facets of canon.

One might suggest just giving the characters a lot of "hammerspace weapon" normals instead, and while that HAS been a longtime part of the series since about Smash 64, overloading characters with them as some Smash 4-on characters have done makes their animations look cluttered and overwrought. Which tbf, does work for G&W and the Animal Crossing characters I suppose, but more serious characters like the Zelda characters, Fire Emblem characters and the Pits not so much. I'd argue that even some less serious characters like Mario and Kirby would benefit more from a selectable hammer option or the various weapon-based abilities like sword, staff, or parasol rather than overloading them with "hammerspace weapon" moves; Mario and Kirby still need to be focused and easy-to-understand rather than cluttered up.

 

[Jotari]

BotW Link's a righty, presumably to mirror how the attack button is on the right on the controller while the button to shield is on the left. Link's historically a lefty until SS, and even non-3D games still adhere to this post-SS.

And before you say it's functionally identical again, I'd like to note:

1. Link being a lefty is something that many fans are attached to. Even Miyamoto is considering he is a lefty himself.
2. There was much outcry when a video game company representative stated that there's no point in having X other character when Y fulfills their function.

I agree, Link should be a lefty in Smash, I am one of those ardent fans. That's why I don't think anyone should go to the trouble of making a right handed Link echo.

You know what? I agree. In most cases, I'd rather just take the loss of a beloved old move, maybe let others or myself grieve and whine, and then move on. Get rid of FLUDD, move Spinning Kong to Dixie and give DK Barrel Cannon, give Samus pseudo-projectile normals, they can fit into existing designs and push out less fitting/canonical/optimal moves.

BUT, I do have reasons as to why Link should be a special exception:

1. Link is a different guy in most games, going through his own adventures that may or may not be lightly influenced by a chronologically earlier Link.
2. Smash 4 has a full TP-based model and animations ready to clean up and use in the future. That's a lot of work done already.
3. The noted moveset differences, which yes, includes BotW Link being a righty.

So I do think there is significant reason for multiple incarnations of Link to be on the roster. It's not too different from giving a variant of Marth's moveset to other sword-wielding Lords to both represent them and save development time.

Would I like to see other Fire Embelm alts like the Kooalings, sure. Would I like to see them all be echoes with, for example, Marth's old Shield Breaker or other such minor changes, no? Making them Echoes is superfluous. Lucina works because there is a very clear and workable aspect to her moveset. It's Marth's moveset without the gimmick. That is a great way of making an Echo. I don't want to see them force minor changes onto half a dozen other characters just to justify an unnecessary Echo status, or worse, release them without any change at all like the Princess and Belmonts and then just call them Echoes anyway.

Having swappable normalsets (mostly) based on weapons is not to maintain canon, but to represent alternative facets of canon.

One might suggest just giving the characters a lot of "hammerspace weapon" normals instead, and while that HAS been a longtime part of the series since about Smash 64, overloading characters with them as some Smash 4-on characters have done makes their animations look cluttered and overwrought. Which tbf, does work for G&W and the Animal Crossing characters I suppose, but more serious characters like the Zelda characters, Fire Emblem characters and the Pits not so much. I'd argue that even some less serious characters like Mario and Kirby would benefit more from a selectable hammer option or the various weapon-based abilities like sword, staff, or parasol rather than overloading them with "hammerspace weapon" moves; Mario and Kirby still need to be focused and easy-to-understand rather than cluttered up.

So Link should have his bow, boomerang and an infinitely sized bomb back visually on his person at all times. Is this the image of Link you want?

 

[Quillion]

Would I like to see other Fire Embelm alts like the Kooalings, sure. Would I like to see them all be echoes with, for example, Marth's old Shield Breaker or other such minor changes, no? Making them Echoes is superfluous. Lucina works because there is a very clear and workable aspect to her moveset. It's Marth's moveset without the gimmick. That is a great way of making an Echo. I don't want to see them force minor changes onto half a dozen other characters just to justify an unnecessary Echo status, or worse, release them without any change at all like the Princess and Belmonts and then just call them Echoes anyway.

I'd advocate for alts to have different facials, idles, taunts, and victory animations tbf. That way they have enough to show their distinct personality without needing to compromise the function.

And I STILL think TP Link as an echo would be justifiable in that situation. Him being a righty with a double arrow mechanic, remote bombs, and no hookshot wouldn't work.

So Link should have his bow, boomerang and an infinitely sized bomb back visually on his person at all times. Is this the image of Link you want?

What are you arguing against?

I'm arguing against something like a cluttered Kirby moveset with a sword down-air, cutter back-air, beam forward-tilt, staff up-tilt, etc. I'm saying that Ganondorf with options to go pure barehand or pure sword in normals would work better for him. I'm arguing that constantly pulling out different weapons for different normals looks visually unfocused and would absolutely be a case of adherence to canon compromising good design, visual design in this case.

 

[Jotari]

I'd advocate for alts to have different facials, idles, taunts, and victory animations tbf. That way they have enough to show their distinct personality without needing to compromise the function.

And I STILL think TP Link as an echo would be justifiable in that situation. Him being a righty with a double arrow mechanic, remote bombs, and no hookshot wouldn't work.

And the solution is to make him a lefty (the ability to pick up arrows after firing them has also been around since The Wind Waker and very well could have been in Smash since Brawl if they had only ever thought about it, that's not somehting unique to Breath of the Wild).

What are you arguing against?

I'm arguing against something like a cluttered Kirby moveset with a sword down-air, cutter back-air, beam forward-tilt, staff up-tilt, etc. I'm saying that Ganondorf with options to go pure barehand or pure sword in normals would work better for him. I'm arguing that constantly pulling out different weapons for different normals looks visually unfocused and would absolutely be a case of adherence to canon compromising good design, visual design in this case.

I'm arguing against the idea of making an echo for the sake of two moves.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just to point out, while Daisy is almost identical(just a few hurtbox differences), the Belmonts aren't entirely functionally the same. The Holy Waters affect items differently. They're not really unique enough from each other much at all, of course, but there is actual legitimate differences that can be seen in practice. Much like how Dark Samus has only electricity for an element, which would affect certain kinds of Spirit Battles. They're minor, they're sucky, but they aren't functionally the same for those echo sets. That's what makes Daisy really stand out as bad, as there's any number of things that could've been done. Like not giving her the Toads and simply a different Neutral B move and throws alone. Or a custom move of Peach's for any number of B moves, etc. Her only functional difference was an error on the development team during a patch, which made Daisy's vegetables worse than Peach's. Which mostly would put her barely on par with the differences either close to the Belmonts or the Pits, really. So not great, but better than nothing.

That said, I do agree that an Echo just for a few moves is silly.

As for Toon Link, he actually has a different bodyshape than Young Link, which is why while he borrows a few animations, due to having a similar size, they're not very similar at all. Hell, Young Link was much closer to Melee Link in practice. They shared many animations, where Toon Link might share similar-like moves, but a lot of them use different animations as is. And that's cause he's a different kind of character and fighter. Young Link is a swift version of the more heavy Link. Toon Link was designed character-wise to be a heavy combo character(he doesn't show this often nearly as well in Smash, though, but it's still there). All 3 are rather different in practice overall. Does it mean having 3 unique Links is desirable? Nah. It just means that they are different enough from each other that you can't just have one in and say "all the Links are represented well". That said, my only issue with the current Link is not so much a lack of Hookshot/Clawshot, but the lack of a ranged grab in general. This is too divergent from his style. Admittedly, you can see a similar issue with the Brawl VS Smash 4 Bowser and the TP and OOT Ganondorfs. They stand out as rather different movesets overall, either due to fairly different moves, or in the latter's cases, the speeds they have create quite a different playstyle. OOT Ganondorf is basically a lot more agile and has better range, but also suffers in power a tad. TP Ganondorf has horrid speed and range, but offsets that with massive power. ...OOT Ganondorf is of course better overall, in both of his appearances, but that isn't the full point being made.

That said, in these cases, they are actually divergent movesets that could work with another character for an Echo, and it's not some "a couple of moves", which when you look at some of the Echoes, did not go too well. While the characters alone have happy fanbases, there's still many disappointed in how poorly implemented they were(with Daisy being even worse than the rest). I like the idea of Dry Bowser, as mentioned, and the only character with the right build that actually could use Ganondorf's Brawl/4 moveset is Black Shadow. Even the Final Smash could be similar, or basically be like Falcon's, as both make sense. Run them over, or run them over with a cutscene. But yeah.

 

[Jotari]

Just to point out, while Daisy is almost identical(just a few hurtbox differences), the Belmonts aren't entirely functionally the same. The Holy Waters affect items differently. They're not really unique enough from each other much at all, of course, but there is actual legitimate differences that can be seen in practice. Much like how Dark Samus has only electricity for an element, which would affect certain kinds of Spirit Battles. They're minor, they're sucky, but they aren't functionally the same for those echo sets. That's what makes Daisy really stand out as bad, as there's any number of things that could've been done. Like not giving her the Toads and simply a different Neutral B move and throws alone. Or a custom move of Peach's for any number of B moves, etc. Her only functional difference was an error on the development team during a patch, which made Daisy's vegetables worse than Peach's. Which mostly would put her barely on par with the differences either close to the Belmonts or the Pits, really. So not great, but better than nothing.

That said, I do agree that an Echo just for a few moves is silly.

While I do think specials are a better way to go, it doesn't even need to go that far. Melee shows you can have clones that have the same animations that work very differently just by adjusting frame data and damage. Which is trivially simple to do. It was a lack of will and not capabilities that left the Princess and Belmonts so similar (and yeah, I'm aware holy water is two different elements, but that is so minor as to be virtually non existent).

As for Toon Link, he actually has a different bodyshape than Young Link, which is why while he borrows a few animations, due to having a similar size, they're not very similar at all. Hell, Young Link was much closer to Melee Link in practice. They shared many animations, where Toon Link might share similar-like moves, but a lot of them use different animations as is. And that's cause he's a different kind of character and fighter. Young Link is a swift version of the more heavy Link. Toon Link was designed character-wise to be a heavy combo character(he doesn't show this often nearly as well in Smash, though, but it's still there). All 3 are rather different in practice overall. Does it mean having 3 unique Links is desirable? Nah. It just means that they are different enough from each other that you can't just have one in and say "all the Links are represented well". That said, my only issue with the current Link is not so much a lack of Hookshot/Clawshot, but the lack of a ranged grab in general. This is too divergent from his style. Admittedly, you can see a similar issue with the Brawl VS Smash 4 Bowser and the TP and OOT Ganondorfs. They stand out as rather different movesets overall, either due to fairly different moves, or in the latter's cases, the speeds they have create quite a different playstyle. OOT Ganondorf is basically a lot more agile and has better range, but also suffers in power a tad. TP Ganondorf has horrid speed and range, but offsets that with massive power. ...OOT Ganondorf is of course better overall, in both of his appearances, but that isn't the full point being made.

Yeah, Toon Link has landed on as being quite different from Young Link, but that's also true of a lot of characters between Brawl and Melee. I think Toon Link very could have justifiably been called Young Link in brawl and no one would have batted an eye.

That said, in these cases, they are actually divergent movesets that could work with another character for an Echo, and it's not some "a couple of moves", which when you look at some of the Echoes, did not go too well. While the characters alone have happy fanbases, there's still many disappointed in how poorly implemented they were(with Daisy being even worse than the rest). I like the idea of Dry Bowser, as mentioned, and the only character with the right build that actually could use Ganondorf's Brawl/4 moveset is Black Shadow. Even the Final Smash could be similar, or basically be like Falcon's, as both make sense. Run them over, or run them over with a cutscene. But yeah.

I don't see the appeal of giving Ganondorf's moveset to Black Shadow. Brawl changed a bunch of his moves to be different from Falcon's. It would be just as discordant to give Ganodorf's post Brawl moveset to a character from a different series as it was to give Ganondorf's Falcon's moveset in the first place. If there really needs to be a different Ganondorf, Demise is also right there as an obvious Echo of Ganondorf and actually from the same series and a related character.

 

[Aligo]

I totally think the smash developers could get away with a big rework to ganondorf, the old moveset doesn't have to stay as long as the feel is similar enough. Bower is practically a different character in brawl and melee,yet the only thing people somewhat miss is koopa claw. I could totally see them getting away with changing wizards foot to a trident thrust with anti projectile properties among other things without any outrage.

 

[Quillion]

Just to point out, while Daisy is almost identical(just a few hurtbox differences), the Belmonts aren't entirely functionally the same. The Holy Waters affect items differently. They're not really unique enough from each other much at all, of course, but there is actual legitimate differences that can be seen in practice. Much like how Dark Samus has only electricity for an element, which would affect certain kinds of Spirit Battles. They're minor, they're sucky, but they aren't functionally the same for those echo sets. That's what makes Daisy really stand out as bad, as there's any number of things that could've been done. Like not giving her the Toads and simply a different Neutral B move and throws alone. Or a custom move of Peach's for any number of B moves, etc. Her only functional difference was an error on the development team during a patch, which made Daisy's vegetables worse than Peach's. Which mostly would put her barely on par with the differences either close to the Belmonts or the Pits, really. So not great, but better than nothing.

Again, I'd say that if one character fights/acts similarly enough to another in canon, and their character models can support most of the move animations while just changing facials, idles, taunts, and victory poses, there's nothing inherently wrong with a functionally non-divergent echo.

I'll once again note that this statement was hated, because many just want to play as their favorite character, similar to another or not.

While I do think specials are a better way to go, it doesn't even need to go that far. Melee shows you can have clones that have the same animations that work very differently just by adjusting frame data and damage. Which is trivially simple to do. It was a lack of will and not capabilities that left the Princess and Belmonts so similar (and yeah, I'm aware holy water is two different elements, but that is so minor as to be virtually non existent).

Except messing with the parameters has balancing to take into account. Doing a quick-n-dirty job with changing them will just lead to situations where the moveset design won't support the frame data and damage or vice versa. I'd love to see some of the less divergent echoes get updated in later games, but how they did them in Ultimate was not inherently bad.

Yeah, Toon Link has landed on as being quite different from Young Link, but that's also true of a lot of characters between Brawl and Melee. I think Toon Link very could have justifiably been called Young Link in brawl and no one would have batted an eye.

I'd still say there'd be those who would miss the young Hero of Time even back then. Calling him " Toon Link" just softened the blow.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't see the appeal of giving Ganondorf's moveset to Black Shadow. Brawl changed a bunch of his moves to be different from Falcon's. It would be just as discordant to give Ganodorf's post Brawl moveset to a character from a different series as it was to give Ganondorf's Falcon's moveset in the first place. If there really needs to be a different Ganondorf, Demise is also right there as an obvious Echo of Ganondorf and actually from the same series and a related character.

Demise is a barely liked character and wouldn't work all that well. He's a swordsman, much less a magic user, where Black Shadow is a physical magic user in practice. It's one of the reasons why Black Shadow's Spirit specifically uses Ganondorf, not Captain Falcon. Because he actually fits Ganondorf's build and design, whether Ultimate or 4/Brawl, much much better.

Besides that, it doesn't matter if it's a different series for an Echo. That's not the point behind it. The point is to easily add a character that properly fits the moveset in question, and Demise does not, since this is the Smash 4/Brawl moveset, not just slightly changing up Ganondorf's Ultimate moveset(which works quite differently in practice, while having just a slight similarity to his 4/Brawl moveset, mainly the Side Tilt).

That said, this whole idea that Toon Link is just "Young Link" again misses the point. He's actually an all-different character that marks a new era of cartoony-style games and also plays differently quite a bit anyway, as I noted before. There was no "softening the blow". He's simply just a different character altogether.

That said, regular Link was always the same build in each game for the adult variant, with only at most either a handedness change or just different clothing. His animations of course will change here and there due to new items, but yeah. Just not the same thing overall. It's understandable why they made an all new character to replace Young Link, with the only similarity respectively being "we should have a child-style Link", but seeing as how Toon Link doesn't represent the earlier games even slightly, he doesn't fit entirely to the point. Young Link, while an American-only thing, at first was mistaken as being the original Links(looking a bit younger) from Z1, 2, 3, and LA, but basically, that's not entirely the case, since Adult Link did the same thing, till it was switched to TP's design. Zelda, Ganondorf, and Sheik also got TP designs, so the original games up to MM had no playable representation, even loosely, anymore. Which is why Young Link also worked well as a returnee. He not only properly represents games before WW, but also has the classic design and moveset more closely due to Link... simply lacking the old style(but still had a barely changed moveset, respectively). I could go on, but yeah, Toon Link and Young Link are entirely different in their purpose. Adult Link is just "whatever new older Link design they want to use at the time", representing the most current player character. So a unique situation. I know Sheik and Ganondorf went back to OOT designs, but they're not playable characters anyway, and the main thing is that the representation of each Link is a different version of the playable character to represent different series of games.

 

[Arthur97]

If we're moving Ganondorf's moveset, then Blood Falcon seems like the obvious choice. He is literally a clone of Captain Falcon, and seems to be physically bigger to boot. Use Captain Falcon's blood Falcon alt as a reference and build him from there. Make him seem meaner by maybe being a big quieter and make the fire a more purplish, but still clearly fire effect. Boom, Ganondorf is freed up to be himself.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If we're moving Ganondorf's moveset, then Blood Falcon seems like the obvious choice. He is literally a clone of Captain Falcon, and seems to be physically bigger to boot. Use Captain Falcon's blood Falcon alt as a reference and build him from there. Make him seem meaner by maybe being a big quieter and make the fire a more purplish, but still clearly fire effect. Boom, Ganondorf is freed up to be himself.

...Blood Falcon is not a heavyweight nor is based upon one. He's literally a clone of Captain Falcon and due to having a different build from Ganondorf, can't work as an Echo of him(do people not understand that a near identical bodyshape is the core requirement of all Echoes? You can't get more than a regular clone, semi-clone, or "just barely shares a few bits" at best otherwise). He only makes sense as an Echo of Captain Falcon, of which Ganondorf is way too different, even in 4, for that to make sense. Besides that, since when is Blood Falcon a magic user?? The big reason Black Shadow was considered is that he's got the same build, and uses magic in canon, just like Ganondorf. Nobody else actually applies in a similar way because they're way too different from the previous Ganondorf style(which is why Demise can't work) and bodyshape to be a logical choice.

Ganondorf wouldn't be "freed up to be himself", because he already is himself. He's a powerful brute who uses magic whatever way he wants and dominates characters with what is most important to him, Power. He was never OOC outside of his demo sword and maybe at best Dark Dive(well, Gerudo Dragon too, but that less so since any magical physical hit is possible by him). You don't fix anything, since the worst problems he has are stuff like frame data, and a terribly Up Tilt that doesn't work even in casual(it does fit him). As bad as Dark Dive seems, it's actually not a bad move either. He punches and kicks in canon(as well as artwork). He's not using every ability, but he's never been meant as a projectile-based character in Smash. If you want that, just add... Toon Ganondorf(who is actually agile enough to properly use other projectiles), his minion Phantom Ganon, Agnahim, or even regular Ganon(bipedal) from ALTTP. All four of them are related in some way while actually properly able to perform these skills in a way that balances the gameplay without ruining a good moveset that actually fits said character overall. Like, the worst thing Ganondorf even does is... not use his canon sword in battle(of which he has none outside of TP and WW, but still), and Ganon oddly does(which actually is pretty similar enough overall for Ganondorf to properly wield in Smash), but he's just a boss.

The best ideas I've seen to further improve Ganondorf was give his aerials a projectile reflector, so he can still properly perform DMV to some degree, but without trying too hard to make what's basically an all new character style. I've seen the DMV mods in practice. They play way too differently as an overall character to actually be the Ganondorf we play as. That's when you know another slot is the most logical answer to these kind of things. We've seen massive changes to many characters, yet... their end goal and playstyle is still extremely similar. Sometimes some bits are removed that can make them less fun competitively from the previous game(Link having no Hookshot equivalent is one thing, but the Gale Boomerang being gone has an even bigger effect on the old combos. However, he's still the same core character at the end of the day). This is also why some want Echo Fighters for old movesets, because the old moveset is actually unique. It doesn't make the latest version invalid or anything though. It still makes them great characters but gives other styles a chance to come up, which only makes for more gameplay variety(though I agree it's way too much development time and for little gain. Even more Links would not sit well).

 

[Aligo]

I would give ganondorf a long range teleport recovery, a bit like sheiks vanish but with the aesthetics of his entrance animation portal. It would make his offstage less rough.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not talking about competitive viability, I'm talking about getting him a better moveset. Ganondorf is not a brute. Ganondorf is actually very cunning and smart. Direct confrontation actually doesn't seem to be one of his preferred methods of attack. In OoT, he manipulated Link and Zelda into opening the Door of Time in addition to getting on the King's good side, in WW, he had potential Zelda candidates rounded up and was only pushed to direct action at the end where he was not particularly brutish in his fighting, TP has him lead from the shadows with a puppet leading the invasion, only showing himself when the puppet was dealt with. Even in ALttP when he was in his monster form, he manipulated the king and according to the manual even put on a ruse as something of a hero to gain trust. He is smart, he only got the Triforce of power because that was the part he believed in most. If he was lacking in one area, it ironically maight have been courage seeing as he rarely seems to move directly without being either forced or thinking he has already won. This is, of course, ignoring mindless Ganon after the botched attempt to bring him back.

And I thought Blood Falcon looked bigger in his old trophy and maybe art. Either way, you could take liberties and just make him bigger. Either way, my goal wouldn't be to have both of them so they don't need to match one for one. This is just to preserve the older moveset more or less while letting Ganondorf have a new one.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...Since when is Ganondorf not a brute? It's a consistent thing he does. He's about power. He uses magic too, but his magical attacks are extremely powerful. Though I guess to be fair, he's always been brutish, but smart and cunning too. He keeps up both. Even at his stupidest, in TP, where he is mostly violent but still has some cunning moments. WW is ironic that he's both super cunning and super brutish in practice. OOT he's still brutish, but it's mostly as Ganon. It's weird. Ganon in ALTTP is kind of brutish, but not much(the story isn't told to us as much), and he's entirely a brutish in Z1(justified as he isn't given a single bit of characterization).

You can't work cunning and smart into his gameplay because it's not a fighting style. The only way to do that is have a very agile version, of which OOT and TP Ganondorfs lack agility. They've been fairly slow. That's a strict thing of Toon Ganondorf.

...Blood Falcon is literally identical to Falcon's size. They have some differences in gameplay, but for the most part, aren't different enough to be anywhere close to Ganondorf levels of changes. Remember, Blood Falcon, to be an echo of Ganondorf, would have to have a near identical bodyshape, which that isn't the case. That's... only the case for other more strict heavyweight-designed characters(even if they aren't necessarily as heavy) like Demise or Black Shadow(and we both know why Demise can't work as an echo of Smash 4 Ganondorf. Ultimate Ganondorf, sure. They both use the same kind of sword style).

Ganondorf has a new moveset to begin with. He's a fast heavyweight, who uses a sword, still has lots of magic, has brutish attacks like he's used in canon, and doesn't use a projectile either way because it would never fit a slow dorf very well at all. He's completely different in applications casual, or competitive, from Melee, where he was nearly identical to Falcon bar weight, a few moves, and more strength/defense respectively.

Actually, the idea he hates direct confrontation isn't actually true. In WW, he gets up in the face of Link and Zelda/Tetra multiple times, brutally attacking them. He has no qualms for physical combat and it's part of his character. His Flame Choke is based upon TP too, and in that game, he didn't fight nearly as physically, but more than OOT, while less than WW. In OOT, keep in mind his official artwork has him doing an overhead punch at Link, which is the same move as his current Forward Air. They already took into account his total portrayal in multiple ways. He also showed cunning during cutscenes in Brawl, while still showing off his physical prowess during fights. The problem is lack of respective cutscenes, so his cunning is very difficult to show in a battle. That's why I noted Toon Ganondorf, who actually would fit all this while not removing a good moveset that heavily works well with Ganondorf's attitude(he's a murderous individual, after all). All 3 kind of work well ideally. Toon Ganondorf is the agile cunning playstyle Ganondorf, Ganondorf(OOT) is the regular version who is both TP and OOT style, while taking some of his physical combat from the Tech Demo and more about showing his Power side, namely how he's even more brutish in his Ganon form(which is notable, because Ganon is just physically more powerful and while using magic, is treated like the muscle of the two these days. It got worse in 3D when he stopped being mainly a magical attacker and went to weapons and sometimes a slight bit of puzzle like with Puppet Ganon specifically). And you get the slower moveset respectively with Black Shadow, who at most doesn't get the sword taunt, and I did note a bit earlier than his Black Bull could either work similar to Falcon's Blue Falcon, or Ganondorf's Beast Ganon Final Smashes.

I would give ganondorf a long range teleport recovery, a bit like sheiks vanish but with the aesthetics of his entrance animation portal. It would make his offstage less rough.

I kind of also like the idea of his Dark Fists otherwise. If only cause it fits his style well. Both work, but it's clear that the current Smash Ganondorf, while heavily canon, is more on the brutish side of his personality than his cunning side in combat.

 

[Arthur97]

Yes, yes I went back to check Blood Falcon, but I still think it could work. Admittedly, It would probably mean reverted back to the Brawl version sans Flame Choke as that is one of the best moves to keep on Ganondorf.

He clearly doesn't hate confrontation, but he's smart about it. Rarely does he directly engage unless backed into a corner or thinks he'll win (like taking Zelda in WW, though I'm not sure if he even did that personally). Not strictly cowardice, but he tends to pick his fights. He doesn't seem to revel in combat like someone like Ridley might. Sure, he may enjoy the idea of finally breaking the hero and princess, but he doesn't seem to be insane, nor is he so single minded as to not use tactics. He is powerful, of course, but at this point I'm mainly refuting the idea he's just some brute. No, he's an intelligent man who manipulated his way into getting to the Triforce in the first place. He wouldn't have gotten such power if he wasn't smart.

In what world is Smash Ganondorf fast?

Either way, Ganondorf should get something of his own, but I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't hit hard. But so many of his moves are just not him. Even his new smash attacks reference no actual game and are cloned from other characters (Ike and Cloud). The fair may have been referenced later, and it's fine enough, but what about everything else? Aerials, most throws, any special not named Flame Choke. He did punt in TP so f-tilt is a rare good example, but so many of his moves are stuck to Captain Falcon. Up tilt is unique, sure, but it's still Captain Falcon's at its core.

The problem with Ganondorf is not just a matter of the moves fitting or not, it's the fact most are still cloned. He is Nintendo's number two villain behind Bowser, and they can't be bothered to give him a unique moveset like so many others. Despite his legacy, he's left to rot.

 

[Aligo]

That's fair there is a question if whether ganondorfs design should lean towards strong or smart. Continuing with the portal, he could summon a portal then rip his sword out of it when performing smash attacks, as it would look pretty cool. Maybe the sword could melt away into darkness after the attack afterwards too.

 

[Arthur97]

A few magic visual flairs would be nice. Another option of course is to not use a sword, but rather a trident. Generally more associated with Ganon, they are still the same person so it could work. And I'm not saying he has to get rid of all physical moves, but a hybrid could work really nice for him.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I guess to be fair, Ganondorf may have never "been" in anyway. He was clone or nothing at the time. Frankly, if we did get him in Brawl, it'd either be a very slow Ganondorf(TP) with little magic anyway(since he doesn't use it much at all) or WW Ganondorf(who is agile and fast, but also not much for magic either). OOT is the only magical Ganondorf in canon, and was only plausible to use his animations to a good degree... cause Falcon was an easy base. In the end, sucky as it is, he was kind of screwed over in every possible way and was never going to have a legit chance to focus mainly on projectile magic(I said Toon Ganondorf maybe could've had some, but that's it).

Also, Smash Ganondorf is fairly fast... in his OOT design. He's about middle speed, but I mean that Smash 4 Ganondorf is hyper slow in comparison. Sorry, should've said that better.

I find his Smash Attacks almost weird, but I feel they work perfectly with his Sword itself. Maybe Down Smash could use a rework. Also, to be fair, a sword is the only weapon Ganondorf legitimately uses, and said Ganondorf doesn't ever use a Trident either in any way(bar a non-canon version). Ganon actually gets a Trident only after he is reincarnated in Four Swords Adventures, which leads into ALTTP. The most Phantom Ganon having a Trident could suggest is that Ganondorf knew of the Trident of Power, but had no way to really look for it so made Phantom Ganon having one so he felt "better" about his inadequacy. That or it makes no sense in canon and is just a fun thing the team did to reference ALTTP's Ganon and Agnahim somewhat into one. Either way, we have no way to know if it's legitimately his Trident at this point.

The reason it's associated with Ganon, to be fair, is that it's a different Ganondorf in canon who needs a new way to fight, and by then sheds his old Gerudo form permanently to stay in his monstrous form in order to properly obtain it. The story actually notes that they're a different person due to reincarnation. FSA is not the same Ganondorf overall. Which is what makes Phantom Ganon in OOT having a Trident be rather inconsistent with the story. Thankfully Toon Phantom Ganon fixes that by properly using a weapon Ganondorf knew about instead. Though it's worth noting that TP Ganondorf is the one who turns into a new Ganondorf in FSA as well. It's weird.

Anyway, not that the Trident is bad, but it wouldn't work with very strong Smash Attacks anyway in a remotely similar way either way. It does okay with the Forward Smash, especially the 4 one, but that's it. It's basically a weapon that doesn't remotely mesh well with his power gameplay. Tridents are mainly for semi-slashing and piercing, and Ganondorf is a blunt style user outside of WW. As much as Ganondorf wasn't completely physical in OOT, all his physical animations were purely blunt or power based(don't forget that both Wizard's Foot and Warlock Punch actually do use animations from OOT. His ground punch and how he falls to the ground with his foot). Dark Dive, as I noted, is not actually related to Ganondorf, same with Gerudo Dragon(which only makes sense in his abilities, but has no animations to fall back on).

...Technically, a lot of his moves do use magic. It's dark magic, but still magic. Maybe a few more dark magical moves more consistently used? Like his Up Air could have a darkness bit added to his feet, etc.

 

[Arthur97]

I guess to be fair, Ganondorf may have never "been" in anyway. He was clone or nothing at the time. Frankly, if we did get him in Brawl, it'd either be a very slow Ganondorf(TP) with little magic anyway(since he doesn't use it much at all) or WW Ganondorf(who is agile and fast, but also not much for magic either). OOT is the only magical Ganondorf in canon, and was only plausible to use his animations to a good degree... cause Falcon was an easy base. In the end, sucky as it is, he was kind of screwed over in every possible way and was never going to have a legit chance to focus mainly on projectile magic(I said Toon Ganondorf maybe could've had some, but that's it).

Also, Smash Ganondorf is fairly fast... in his OOT design. He's about middle speed, but I mean that Smash 4 Ganondorf is hyper slow in comparison. Sorry, should've said that better.

I find his Smash Attacks almost weird, but I feel they work perfectly with his Sword itself. Maybe Down Smash could use a rework. Also, to be fair, a sword is the only weapon Ganondorf legitimately uses, and said Ganondorf doesn't ever use a Trident either in any way(bar a non-canon version). Ganon actually gets a Trident only after he is reincarnated in Four Swords Adventures, which leads into ALTTP. The most Phantom Ganon having a Trident could suggest is that Ganondorf knew of the Trident of Power, but had no way to really look for it so made Phantom Ganon having one so he felt "better" about his inadequacy. That or it makes no sense in canon and is just a fun thing the team did to reference ALTTP's Ganon and Agnahim somewhat into one. Either way, we have no way to know if it's legitimately his Trident at this point.

The reason it's associated with Ganon, to be fair, is that it's a different Ganondorf in canon who needs a new way to fight, and by then sheds his old Gerudo form permanently to stay in his monstrous form in order to properly obtain it. The story actually notes that they're a different person due to reincarnation. FSA is not the same Ganondorf overall. Which is what makes Phantom Ganon in OOT having a Trident be rather inconsistent with the story. Thankfully Toon Phantom Ganon fixes that by properly using a weapon Ganondorf knew about instead. Though it's worth noting that TP Ganondorf is the one who turns into a new Ganondorf in FSA as well. It's weird.

Anyway, not that the Trident is bad, but it wouldn't work with very strong Smash Attacks anyway in a remotely similar way either way. It does okay with the Forward Smash, especially the 4 one, but that's it. It's basically a weapon that doesn't remotely mesh well with his power gameplay. Tridents are mainly for semi-slashing and piercing, and Ganondorf is a blunt style user outside of WW. As much as Ganondorf wasn't completely physical in OOT, all his physical animations were purely blunt or power based(don't forget that both Wizard's Foot and Warlock Punch actually do use animations from OOT. His ground punch and how he falls to the ground with his foot). Dark Dive, as I noted, is not actually related to Ganondorf, same with Gerudo Dragon(which only makes sense in his abilities, but has no animations to fall back on).

...Technically, a lot of his moves do use magic. It's dark magic, but still magic. Maybe a few more dark magical moves more consistently used? Like his Up Air could have a darkness bit added to his feet, etc.

I think your timeline knowledge might be a bit off. Four Swords Adventure is indeed the only Ganondorf/Ganon specifically stated to not be the same one, but that came post his death in TP and has nothing to do with ALttP. ALttP Ganon is Ganondorf. Meaning at some point he adopted a trident as his weapon of choice. Bear in mind that in this timeline he ended up a mindless monster due to the events in the Oracle games leading to how he was in the OG Zelda. FSA happened in the child timeline, ALttP is the downfall one, and WW is the adult timeline.

So Ganondorf could use a trident as he did use one, and would be a way to incorporate Ganon into the moveset outside a final smash.

Also, you do know Ultimate Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf too and that he's really slow, right?

Did you just say Wizard's Foot was anything other than a Falcon Kick knockoff? Falling to the ground feet first is hardly the same thing. His attacks there were a ground slam and Dead Man's Volley (with two variants). And Warlock Punch was never used in OoT. He slammed the ground from above, with the closest animation being an aerial Flame Choke slam. And bear in mind, he only punched once, and it was indirect as he punched the ground. TP, he did a punt while focusing on sword combat, and WW was similarly weapon focused. Even as Ganon he wasn't much of a brawler unless you count teleporting into Link. He actually primarily uses weapons. Bear in mind, his OoT boss fight only had like two or three attacks in the first phase of the final boss. Not a very robust catalog to base an argument of him being a brawler on. Especially when at least half of those were magic.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think your timeline knowledge might be a bit off. Four Swords Adventure is indeed the only Ganondorf/Ganon specifically stated to not be the same one, but that came post his death in TP and has nothing to do with ALttP. ALttP Ganon is Ganondorf. Meaning at some point he adopted a trident as his weapon of choice. Bear in mind that in this timeline he ended up a mindless monster due to the events in the Oracle games leading to how he was in the OG Zelda. FSA happened in the child timeline, ALttP is the downfall one, and WW is the adult timeline.

So Ganondorf could use a trident as he did use one, and would be a way to incorporate Ganon into the moveset outside a final smash.

Wait, did you just say Wizard's Foot was anything other than a Falcon Kick knockoff? Falling to the ground feet first is hardly the same thing. His attacks there were a ground slam and Dead Man's Volley (with two variants). And Warlock Punch was never used in OoT. He slammed the ground from above, with the closest animation being an aerial Flame Choke slam. And bear in mind, he only punched once, and it was indirect as he punched the ground. TP, he did a punt while focusing on sword combat, and WW was similarly weapon focused. Even as Ganon he wasn't much of a brawler unless you count teleporting into Link. He actually primarily uses weapons. Bear in mind, his OoT boss fight only had like two or three attacks. Not a very robust catalog to base an argument of him being a brawler on. Especially when at least half of those were magic.

Ah, that's my bad. I know it's the technical origin of the Trident, but I forgot it's a legitimately different storyline. Regardless, more to the point, Ganondorf never properly got the Trident in OOT and we have no clue why Phantom Ganon even could wield one. So it's kind of stretchy to throw it in for the sake of it, when he at least uses Swords overall, respectively. Though it's worth noting his final sword in Smash Ultimate is pretty much the same overall way you would wield his swords as Ganon in OOT, so it's more just the model is odd, but it's actually very accurate to him in terms of fighting style.

Yes, Wizard's Foot(aerial) does legitimately take animations from Ganondorf falling when doing his original ground pound. It's part of it.

DMV isn't two variants, btw. DMV is specifically a reflectable projectile. The other spell he uses is a completely different energy ball move, that while similar, has no name either(neither are officially named). It's pretty much a recreation of the blue ball-like energy ball that Agnahim has. They're outright different moves. Keep in mind DMV was not a named move till PH, which also didn't help it's so called importance(didn't help that everybody under the sun used the move, making it less a signature move and more of an iconic boss attack since it was started in ALTTP respectively. It's highly memorable in ALTTP, OOT, and WW the most, though).

Ganondorf outright physically punches Link during the final battle as well in WW. And as I noted, the artwork has him doing the specific overhead punch that was used for his Forward Air. A lot of his animations are actually game-based, not simply cloned alone. That's not saying he isn't a clone, just that they have a lot more basis in the games than you're giving them credit for. https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/07/ganondorf-smash-bros/ This article massively goes into just how much he borrows from the games since Brawl alone, done by Frostwraith. It has a ton of multiple information, but it'd take forever to list. Long story short, most attacks are sourced animation-wise, even to some minor degree.

Nor am I saying they're perfect representation(well, moreso, Wizard's Foot and Warlock Punch are referencing actual moves), just that "he never does any kind of similar thing" is slightly off. Wizard's Foot I get, but Warlock Punch is pretty much the ground punch regardless. Animations is one thing, but the actual move is another.

 

[Arthur97]

Ah, that's my bad. I know it's the technical origin of the Trident, but I forgot it's a legitimately different storyline. Regardless, more to the point, Ganondorf never properly got the Trident in OOT and we have no clue why Phantom Ganon even could wield one. So it's kind of stretchy to throw it in for the sake of it, when he at least uses Swords overall, respectively. Though it's worth noting his final sword in Smash Ultimate is pretty much the same overall way you would wield his swords as Ganon in OOT, so it's more just the model is odd, but it's actually very accurate to him in terms of fighting style.

Yes, Wizard's Foot(aerial) does legitimately take animations from Ganondorf falling when doing his original ground pound. It's part of it.

DMV isn't two variants, btw. DMV is specifically a reflectable projectile. The other spell he uses is a completely different energy ball move, that while similar, has no name either(neither are officially named). It's pretty much a recreation of the blue ball-like energy ball that Agnahim has. They're outright different moves. Keep in mind DMV was not a named move till PH, which also didn't help it's so called importance(didn't help that everybody under the sun used the move, making it less a signature move and more of an iconic boss attack since it was started in ALTTP respectively. It's highly memorable in ALTTP, OOT, and WW the most, though).

Ganondorf outright physically punches Link during the final battle as well in WW. And as I noted, the artwork has him doing the specific overhead punch that was used for his Forward Air. A lot of his animations are actually game-based, not simply cloned alone. That's not saying he isn't a clone, just that they have a lot more basis in the games than you're giving them credit for. https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/07/ganondorf-smash-bros/ This article massively goes into just how much he borrows from the games since Brawl alone, done by Frostwraith. It has a ton of multiple information, but it'd take forever to list. Long story short, most attacks are sourced animation-wise, even to some minor degree.

Nor am I saying they're perfect representation(well, moreso, Wizard's Foot and Warlock Punch are referencing actual moves), just that "he never does any kind of similar thing" is slightly off. Wizard's Foot I get, but Warlock Punch is pretty much the ground punch regardless. Animations is one thing, but the actual move is another.

Saying Wizard's Foot is a reference is a stretch when it takes so much from Falcon Kick. Unless maybe you mean literally just the landing part which isn't much. Not to mention it isn't that unique of a landing style. I also find it hard to believe that a punching animation is at all similar to a kicking animation, and even that article you cited says its a stretch to say the fair is cause of that one singular art piece. Not that it excuses everything else, and it was one of his better moves.

But if you won't go through the list, allow me to go through the animation.

His jab is one of the better things, but it's still a bit of a stretch to say it's a reference a simple sword thrust.

The punt is fine, it can stay, but I think they might have used literally the same move to justify his down tilt.

They referenced a move for when he's holding an item. That's not great. Especially when they could have just used that for his normal forward smash. If anything it might make it worse since they had the animation and sword model but didn't do it.

Allow me to include what they used for a warlock punch reference:

https://i0.wp.com/www.sourcegaming.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/vVpJgx.gif

Tell me how those look remotely similar? The WW clip isn't even a punch, it's a backhand!

Flame Choke, again, is fine. Dark Dive didn't even attempt to compare it to a game animation or attack.

That wasn't even that long of a list (no mention of Wizard's Foot), and not a great one at that. Sure, his taunt, victory, and entrance animations are mostly fine. They weren't the issue.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Saying Wizard's Foot is a reference is a stretch when it takes so much from Falcon Kick. Unless maybe you mean literally just the landing part which isn't much. Not to mention it isn't that unique of a landing style. I also find it hard to believe that a punching animation is at all similar to a kicking animation, and even that article you cited says its a stretch to say the fair is cause of that one singular art piece. Not that it excuses everything else, and it was one of his better moves.

But if you won't go through the list, allow me to go through the animation.

His jab is one of the better things, but it's still a bit of a stretch to say it's a reference a simple sword thrust.

The punt is fine, it can stay, but I think they might have used literally the same move to justify his down tilt.

They referenced a move for when he's holding an item. That's not great. Especially when they could have just used that for his normal forward smash. If anything it might make it worse since they had the animation and sword model but didn't do it.

Allow me to include what they used for a warlock punch reference:

https://i0.wp.com/www.sourcegaming.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/vVpJgx.gif

Tell me how those look remotely similar? The WW clip isn't even a punch, it's a backhand!

Flame Choke, again, is fine. Dark Dive didn't even attempt to compare it to a game animation or attack.

That wasn't even that long of a list (no mention of Wizard's Foot), and not a great one at that. Sure, his taunt, victory, and entrance animations are mostly fine. They weren't the issue.

I'll just note I wasn't comparing Warlock Punch to Ganondorf punching and kicking in canon. I meant more that it's logical that Ganondorf is willing to do that kind of move, and we know he does it in canon.

Oh, I agree Dark Dive needs a change, yeah. And yep, I meant the landing animation for Wizard's Foot. Though yeah, Warlock Punch's windup is actually basically a backhand, so it does further match the design WW has, though I agree it's a stretch too.

The jab is not a sword thrust, no. I think that one he forgot the jab was literally in Melee as the same. The jab is just a very quick version of Falcon's own jab, and using electricity(which is slightly closer to Ganondorf, as his only projectiles are electricity starting from his hands, but they are not clearly a representative of either projectile regardless).

To be fair for the TP Sword, it's meant for stabbing and fencing at best. Ganondorf's only usage of swords in general as a heavyweight fighter is actually as Ganon in OOT, so basically, they had no real way to use his normal canon sword. That's why his Tech Demo Sword is used basically like OOT Ganon fights overall. With heavy swings. I'm not saying this is the best way, as I'd love an agile Ganondorf, it's just that his sword in TP is not very good for this version of Ganondorf at all. However, you could maybe somewhat work with the WW Swords, but those are based upon high agility, and as you said, Ganondorf is still slow. You can see why I suggest just adding a second Ganondorf for those weaponry uses.

That said, I'm not entirely against the Trident, but I don't legitimately see it as workable with his current Smashes any better than the TP's Sword would be. It only works loosely well for his old Forward Smash, but his Up Smash is a brunt force strike, and his Down Smash is still fairly blunt, those slightly agile(as it wasn't entirely changed over from Falcon's at any point. Do note while the Tech Demo sword has differences during the Down Smash, the animations follow a very similar pattern. Whereas the Forward and Up Smashes have kind of a similar concept, as both are powerful swinging moves in 4, but they're still overall a blunt straight attack instead of an overall swinging move respectively).

Now to move on from that, I think one way of making his Electrical Energy Ball(my nickname for his blue ball equivalent that Agnahim uses) useful is that he can charge it by holding A, but it's just a normal projectile otherwise, and maybe an aerial can also reflect stuff. So you can get both DMV and his other projectile used to a degree, but DMV is mostly in spirit(as it's awful if accurate. Almost anything can reflect it. That'd just leave Ganondorf in a horrid position and make him way worse, which is why liberties need taking, heh).

 

[Arthur97]

I'll just note I wasn't comparing Warlock Punch to Ganondorf punching and kicking in canon. I meant more that it's logical that Ganondorf is willing to do that kind of move, and we know he does it in canon.

Oh, I agree Dark Dive needs a change, yeah. And yep, I meant the landing animation for Wizard's Foot. Though yeah, Warlock Punch's windup is actually basically a backhand, so it does further match the design WW has, though I agree it's a stretch too.

The jab is not a sword thrust, no. I think that one he forgot the jab was literally in Melee as the same. The jab is just a very quick version of Falcon's own jab, and using electricity(which is slightly closer to Ganondorf, as his only projectiles are electricity starting from his hands, but they are not clearly a representative of either projectile regardless).

To be fair for the TP Sword, it's meant for stabbing and fencing at best. Ganondorf's only usage of swords in general as a heavyweight fighter is actually as Ganon in OOT, so basically, they had no real way to use his normal canon sword. That's why his Tech Demo Sword is used basically like OOT Ganon fights overall. With heavy swings. I'm not saying this is the best way, as I'd love an agile Ganondorf, it's just that his sword in TP is not very good for this version of Ganondorf at all. However, you could maybe somewhat work with the WW Swords, but those are based upon high agility, and as you said, Ganondorf is still slow. You can see why I suggest just adding a second Ganondorf for those weaponry uses.

That said, I'm not entirely against the Trident, but I don't legitimately see it as workable with his current Smashes any better than the TP's Sword would be. It only works loosely well for his old Forward Smash, but his Up Smash is a brunt force strike, and his Down Smash is still fairly blunt, those slightly agile(as it wasn't entirely changed over from Falcon's at any point. Do note while the Tech Demo sword has differences during the Down Smash, the animations follow a very similar pattern. Whereas the Forward and Up Smashes have kind of a similar concept, as both are powerful swinging moves in 4, but they're still overall a blunt straight attack instead of an overall swinging move respectively).

Now to move on from that, I think one way of making his Electrical Energy Ball(my nickname for his blue ball equivalent that Agnahim uses) useful is that he can charge it by holding A, but it's just a normal projectile otherwise, and maybe an aerial can also reflect stuff. So you can get both DMV and his other projectile used to a degree, but DMV is mostly in spirit(as it's awful if accurate. Almost anything can reflect it. That'd just leave Ganondorf in a horrid position and make him way worse, which is why liberties need taking, heh).

I mean, his swings in TP weren't exactly light, and if they used the same animation, you can't exactly say he never used it. I think you might be too attached to his OoT fight where he barely did anything, and it wasn't even that brutish. He had the slam attack, but everything else was fairly tame. (Side note, but I may still consider the blue version a variant on DMV as a fake out much like in ALttP though it could still be countered in OoT with a spin attack.) I'm not sure why you have this idea OoT Ganondorf fought like a brute. He slammed the ground which by the way helped clear out floor around him so potentially strategic, but for the most part he's flying around, avoiding Link while shooting magic at him.

Honestly, I saw a video that suggested an amalgam Ganondorf, and it might be the best way to go at least for moveset. Draw from various games as he's usually the same guy anyway, and go from there. WW likely being the odd one out.

And that's the beauty, the trident shouldn't just replace the sword, new moves should be made. A simple model swap doesn't really help that much. Thrusting forward smash, spin it above him for an up smash. It should definitely spin at some point. With the exception of a few moves, most of his moveset should be revamped. Whether or not its saved on another fighter or not, Ganondorf is past due for a near complete revamp.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, his swings in TP weren't exactly light, and if they used the same animation, you can't exactly say he never used it. I think you might be too attached to his OoT fight where he barely did anything, and it wasn't even that brutish. He had the slam attack, but everything else was fairly tame. (Side note, but I may still consider the blue version a variant on DMV as a fake out much like in ALttP though it could still be countered in OoT with a spin attack.) I'm not sure why you have this idea OoT Ganondorf fought like a brute. He slammed the ground which by the way helped clear out floor around him so potentially strategic, but for the most part he's flying around, avoiding Link while shooting magic at him.

Honestly, I saw a video that suggested an amalgam Ganondorf, and it might be the best way to go at least for moveset. Draw from various games as he's usually the same guy anyway, and go from there. WW likely being the odd one out.

And that's the beauty, the trident shouldn't just replace the sword, new moves should be made. A simple model swap doesn't really help that much. Thrusting forward smash, spin it above him for an up smash. It should definitely spin at some point. With the exception of a few moves, most of his moveset should be revamped. Whether or not its saved on another fighter or not, Ganondorf is past due for a near complete revamp.

No, I'm not saying OOT Ganondorf is only brutish. I'm saying he can fight brutish and that to fight a cunning way in Smash, you need a different playstyle.

My opinion of the Trident is that it just never really fit him and feels like a stretch when he knows he does physical combat in other games canonically(and does use a powerful sword in general. Which as I'll note below, should include TP), but never once uses that Trident as any kind of real weapon to properly combat with beyond, as Ganon, a basic swing and a throw. Now, while physical attacks might seem odd... he still uses them as the human more in more than one game even, so it's at least something he's been known to do(even if it's not the exact ones). So basically, I see no purpose to it if he already has a weapon(which I agree it's an odd one), but the Trident is even odder, especially as it's not exactly his real Trident(the one in OOT is cool, but his one in ALTTP is actually quite different), and it feels like just adding animations for the sake of it at times while it doesn't outright improve his character. It's the same as trying to change, say, his Up Air to using his sword. It's completely different(as I found out when originally suggesting it) in range and combos, making it bad. Simply changing the animation won't help at all. What helps is making a better moveset with said weapon... and the Trident doesn't do that since Ganondorf's actual moveset is more about power, not quick attacks(which the Trident is far more meant for).

Ah, I can see where the problem was. Smash 4 and Brawl use the same sword, but it's made way thinner and looks like a light sword, not a broadsword. It's however used pretty much like a light sword in Smash, for some reason. Though it definitely wouldn't have fit with his OOT model's design. Incidentally, it's easily a lighter design than his Tech Demo Sword or Ganon's other swords there. That, and technically he doesn't have it yet. It's worth noting that Ganondorf doesn't take very much from other games, and sticks to his own weapon(even the Tech Demo one, which to be fair, that particular sword was reworked for Phantom Ganon in WW, heh. They're pretty much the same kind, just the sword itself had new artwork done to it so it's not more than basically a model swap, if you will.

DMV is specifically a volley attack. The other projectile is... not a volley attack by default. Though it's worth noting that Agnahim is weird in how it's done. He spends more time creating DMV than his Blue Balls, where it's the opposite in OOT. But also keep in mind that the Spin Attack using it is more of a bonus and it's clearly not the back and forth volley in any way. That's why it's pretty clearly a different move in practice. They've always been treated as different attacks, and only sometimes the alternate version can be volleyed(but not under normal ways. Hence why the Spin Attack is the only way to reflect the blue ball-equivalent). Regardless, the whole point is that they work differently, regardless of what you want to name them.

Oh, god, I saw that analgram. It looked like it has no coherency and was really bad to me. I want a coherent Ganondorf, personally, that feels natural with his moves. Canon moves are not "good" in itself. Coherency is way more important in a fighting game specifically. He needs to flow right, and he can't flow right as a slower fighter with an odd projectile that leaves him wide open easily by default. That's why DMV is godawful for him and was never added(besides bad timing, as he never used it again, with even Ganon barely using it. Agnahim, as I noted, is the first user of it, and he was just the prototype for Ganondorf. The difference is Ganondorf evolved beyond being an Agnahim rehash and did tons of unique things).

Anyway, basically, I do like a few ideas, but I can't see the Trident, another Sword, or DMV as one of them. Sometimes it just doesn't work overall and it's better to stay with the liberties. And improve on those instead(see what I said about emulating DMV's concept lightly but not making it a horrible move that hurts Ganondorf's ability to play).

 

[Jotari]

Okay, I see there's been a whole big long conversation about Ganondorf and Falcon that I've had too many times that I'm not going to jump into (I'll just reiterate the potential of Demise, though personally I don't want Ganondorf to fight massively different that he currently does). Instead I'm going to sacrifice an hour, maybe more, of my life to sum up this entire thread with every character in the game and what major aspects they're missing. If something is in just one game, like Donkey Kong's Coconut gun or Mario's Cappy, then I'm not going to really count is as classic. People might want it, but it's not actually a defined aspect of the character if it's only appeared as gimmick in one game (of course if the character themself has only appeared in one or two games then it's a different story). My knowledge of Nintendo series is pretty dang good by average standards, but also not perfect, so I'm sure I'll miss a lot. Anyway, here we go.

The most obvious thing that seems to be missing here is the Ground Pound. There are quite a few power ups in general, and sure, many that have appeared in multiple games, but as far things go that Mario can do, damaging enemies by jumping on them is his most fundamental and it's missing. This could, and I think, absoluty should be implemented by dealing damage by footstooling as a kind of inverse of Piranha Plant, but even if a mechanic like that was there, Mario can do a ground pound in pretty much every 3D appearance. That doesn't mean a Ground Pound necessarily has to be put in Mario's moveset, but it does strike me as one of the things he can most commonly do that is missing.

He's been discussed at length already, barrel throwing is something he's done since the arcade days and is continually reaffirmed as a thing in his own games. Shooting out of a barrel is also something very common in his own games and could definitely replace his current lack luster recovery. Animal companions are also a thing, but would change him quite a lot if implemented into his moveset.

Link's also got a lot of discussion recently on the thread, but it's been about specific games. If you take all of his appearances together, the main thing that seems to be missing is magic. Link has used magic rods since the first game and, while not as common as his three specials already, magic rods of some form have reappeared frequently in the Zelda series. Again though, this isn't necessarily something he needs to have, but it's definitely something he can do. Some people want Masks for Young Link, but that's really only been a thing in one title. Still not impossible though if there's a mission to keep all three and differentiate them.

Definitely Ice Beams. Wave and Plasma Beams you could claim are there with electric and fire attacks, but freezing enemies is one of the most important things about Samus that she does in almost every game yet is completely absent in Smash. Power Bombs, Space Jump and Spider Ball are also very common abilities that are absent in Smash, though it would be questionable how the Spider Ball in particular could work effectively. Dark Samus is missing almost everything and could easily be decloned completely.

Transformations...yeah, it's kind of weird to think about, but in a lot of Yoshi's own games he transforms into various vehicles. This has been entirely absent from Smash...and probably for good reason. What people here have mostly talked about is less what is missing from Yoshi and more mechanically how the things that are there should work in terms of eating, creating and throwing eggs. Flying and spitting fire is also something he can frequently do that was there in his old Final Smash but now doesn't have a place. The fire might not be necessary, but the winged form could definitely be used for a proper recovery.

A whole bunch of powers. Kirby really has a lot of abilities and many of them could easily replace stuff he does already. Too much to list. But what he does have already isn't necessarily unrepresentative. My personal mention would go to the Beam ability as one of his oldest and most basic attacks. The sword is also something people seem to want a lot beyond his final smash.

I'm not too familiar with the Star Fox series, have only played Lylat wars, where, funnily enough, the characters can fight outside of their vehicles using rocket launchers, but Assault or Command seems to be the obvious place to draw from for grounded combat in Star Fox. But overall Star Fox's most generally accepted gameplay is very different to Smash and, if you squint hard enough, is kind of present in Smash.

I would say Iron Tail is a pretty well associated attack from Pikachu that could certainly replace Skull Bash. But overall, speed+electicity is what Pikachu is all about and that's what is there. Pikachu does wear a lot of different costumes that could be more reflected in alts though. Pichu is pretty much the same. Maybe some "cute" attacks from Pokemon that lower enemies stats if you really want.

You could say some of the same stuff about Mari's ground pound, but overall pretty well represented.

:ultNess: So, yeah, you might be surprised to hear this if you haven't played Earthbound, but Ness has his own special signature move that is just completely absent. It's called PK Rockin. You could say some of his generic psychic attacks are it, and I've heard someone suggest PK Thunder on himself is it, but nothing in Smash has been identified as PK Rockin and it's actually super weird. Other than that, Nes uses two of the three weapons he's able to use in Earthbound, the baseball bat and the yo-yo. He's missing the slingshot. Though yo-yo and slingshots are generic weapons all the party members can use in Earthbound.

So like Star Fox, his gameplay is completely different. It would be possible to maybe squeeze out some more stuff based on boosts and mid race repair fields and stuff, but it would all probably be a bit contrived. He also has that gun he never used in Smash, though I don't think he ever uses it anywhere else either.

Obvious fairy moves are missing. Could be implemented pretty easily with a few more sparkles.

There's certainly a lot to draw from in Super Princess Peach, but that's only one game that's quite old now. On the other hand, it's the only actual "Peach game" you could readily identify. So her vibes and stuff from that do still stand out. Daisy is in a similar boat, though people would like to see her take more from her sports games.

People have pointed to some specific punches and stuff that could definitely work. But overall what Bowser does is pound around and breath fire, which is there in Smash. Though if his Fire Breath could work in Fire Shot from SSB4's customs then that would be nice.

If you really want something more canonical for them, the falcon they grab onto at the end of every stage would definitely work as a recovery. And I'm actually a little surprised they never went that route. Though I think it is already represented in their stage entrance.

The harp. It isn't even there as a taunt! Sheik did two things in Ocarina of Time. Play the harp and vanish. The latter is there but the former has only ever appeared in Melee's intro. In addition, there's now a whole host of Sheikah weapons and abilities introduced in Breath of the Wild that could potentially be used, even if we've never seen Sheik, specifically, use them.

Yep, light arrows. Talked about extensively, moving on.

He literally has only ever thrown pills, and that's there, so he's good. Though if you really want to shake up Smash a bit, he could be given a healing move or two. He is a doctor after all.

The Shield of Seals. It's kind of a big thing about Marth. It's the titular Fire Emblem game. Yeah, Marth used a Shield. In another world maybe he was a Link clone with different specials. How to implement it though? I think maybe turning his counter into something more resembling Sephiroth's scintilla.
In addition to swords, both could use lances in their own game. Lucina has also become some what connected to bows in spin off materials. She also used Aether, like Chrom. They also have a distinctive jump and spinning attack both use in gameplay and is specifically pointed out in a cutscene.

Discussed at length. Missing a long range projectile and a trident.

He doesn't have a move expressly identified as "psychic", but in general he does use all his psychic powers. He also used barrier quite extensively in his movies and that's something that could be worked in if need be.

Long range attacks. It's funny, and possibly a result of him debuting in Smash before his own game, but Roy can attack at long range unlike most sword users in his series, yet he's a close range fighter in Smash. I don't think the two ideas are impossible to unify in Smash, so long as his projectile discourages spamming and encourages rushing in. Something like PK Fire or Sacred Flame would probably work best.

It doesn't get much focus, but Mr Game and Watch is actually probably the most well represented character in smash. Almost every single frame of his comes from some Game and Watch game. There's still a lot that aren't used as it was a full console library, but overall he has nothing to complain about.

Discussed a bit, but I can't really remember what people have focused don most. What stands out to me is that he's missing a projectile which he sort of uses in Kirby along with a stall and drop down aerial.

There are a lot of new weapons in Kid Icarus Uprising that are not seeing use. Pit doesn't exactly need to use them, but Dark Pit absolutely could to be decloned. In addition, as I noted, Pit could use a hammer in his own game. He also had Centurions helping him, which was his old final smash but now is no longer present. I also think the Great Sacred Treasure could make for a better final smash, freeing up the regular sacred trasures for his specials again.

Zero Suit Samus actually has nothing aside fromhe rparalyzer. She does a slide in Other M and that's it. So Smash made up a whip and rocket boots for her.

Most of his moves seem to come from his Wario Ware personality, if not animations. He does have his Wario Land rush as his forward Smash though. The most noticeable things missing are from his 3D Wario World games which I haven't personally played.

The most obvious is, of course, HIS GUN. Possible now with Joker in the game? Eh, maybe. He doesn't exactly need it. Snake is quite well represented all around, though I think his grenades are disliked by Snake players (or am I thinking of Sheik?). Brawl- or Brawl+ or whatever it was gave him a tranquilizer gun instead of his grenades which I like a lot, as reducing enemy stamina instead of health is an aspect to Metal Gear and having some kind of slow acting sleep attack is quite creative for Smash. In addition, I'm not sure if he has Stinger Missiles. These are the things he uses to take down Metal Gears, so they're kind of important. Maybe they're there in one of his Smash attacks or his final smash, I'm not super sure. Snake also has some unique status where copy right might actually be holding back some of his moves. As a lot of his equipment is real life weapons that are probably under copyright protection.

Ike is in the same boat as Roy, having a long range attack in his own game. Closest Smash got to that was Aether Wave in Smash 4, though Eruption does extend pretty far at full charge. Neither are Ike's sword beam though. He also uses axes and even has an associated axe he inherited from his father called Urvan. I think we're passed every Fire Emblem character needing counter now and his axe could work as a down special similar to Byleth's.


Like most pokemon, there's a lot of moves you could use, but overall the fundamentals are well represented.

I don't think he's been talked about much. He's pretty well represented. He did have a charge attack in DK64 that could be used as a Smash attack, but not exactly classic. He has also flown a lot with the whole Diddy Kong racing, but not really workable unless it's an entrance or something.

Like Ness, Lucas has his own special PK attack, PK Love, but unlike Ness, it is more obviously represented in his normal attacks. Aside from that, Lucas's main role in Mother 3 is actually as a healer and a shielder. He kind of has healing already with PSI Magnet, but a PSI Shield or Counter would not be remiss.

A long history, so a lot that could potentially be taken, but overall he's fast and that's Sonic's jam. The most obvious thing to me is the shield orbs he could get in his older games, but they might work better as an item for smash in general than a specific attack on Sonic.

Largely fine. WAll his most recurring traits are there in some form, from what I can see.

Rock Pikmin are a noticable absence.

No specific steel moves, I think. Maybe he could get metal claw?

Dynamite was a feature of one of his two original games that could potentially be implemented. Though R.O.B is less classic for anything from his actual games and more for just being R.O.B.

Is in the Kirby situation. A lot of classic stuff he does do, but overall largely well represented already. In fact, very well represented.

Seems well represented to me. I guess she could use the Luma Spin.

Reiterate what I've said about the other Pokemon. Still more you could do, but the fundamentals are there.

Surpisingly, anything from their own games. Wii Sports and Wii Play do exist. Would anyone object to a four Mii fighter, Mii Sportsmaster?

They aped a lot of Pit's moves to make her in Smash 4, but they, whether intentionally or not, did still end up taking a lot of what she does in her own boss fight anyway. What's noteworthy about Palutena is what she used to be able to do as a result of custom specials that she can't do anymore.

Their signature skill Ignis isn't present. Maybe should replace the final smash now that Chrom is playable. There's also has some spoilershy stuff with the villain that could be worked in, if only even as an alt. Also known to buff allies, which could potentially be worked in a team battle or as some kind of Monado arts.

Monado Buster! Pretty cool, powerful attack he's missing from his own games. Monado Arts are also cool and somewhat resembles Xenoblade gameplay, but not actually how the Monado itself works in Xenoblade.

Not something he's done, I think, but he's clearly also based on the Super Mario World end boss where one of the attacks is to drop a large marble looking ball called a Big Steely. Maybe he should drop a Little Steely?

It's not a complicated game. Everything is pretty much there.

Magic. It's a big thing in Final Fantasy and Cloud does use it in his own game. In addition, he has two of his seven limit breaks absent, Braver and Meteor Rain. Not sure how you could work them in outside of Custom Specials though.

Corrin also uses magic and healing staves in Fates. Though I can understand why that was downplayed compared to dragon powers.

Bayonetta uses a lot of other weapons, but none of them are exactly iconic or important compared to her guns.

Also uses quite a few other wepaons, but what there already kind of works. Similar to the pokemon, a lot you could add, but don't really need to.

Bouncing tail is the obvious one. Other than that the fundamentals are there.

Knives are one of the classic Catlevannia items missing frmo the specialsl line up. Simon also used a shield via Dracula's Rib in his second game which wouldn't be the worst special. The most iconic thing however, that they're missing, is Item Crashes. Using some of their ammo to do a more powerful attack. Well I guess it's there for their final Smahs, but in manifests in a lot of other items in Castlevannia too.

He can drop cannon balls from the sky, which could potentially be implemented like Pikachu's Thunder for a special, but overall I think he's pretty solid.

Nothing of note to say. Haven't played more modern Pokemon games.

Fire balls. A staple of piranha plants that is missing, except maybe I think on a back aerial.

I've only played Dragon Quest VIII, so there's nothing obvious that jumps out to me. I'm sure there's a lot you could do, but he seems pretty well rounded as is.

I've only played the first Banjo Kazooie game, which they're very well represented from. Though I think the second game has some more elaborate abilities that could be used.

The eagerness to use all the weapons has overlooked the things Byleth actually has proficiencies for in their own game. Namely Brawling and White Magic. An Enlightened One Alt would also be very much appreciated. It's super minor in Three Houses, but Byleth's personal class also takes no damage from terrain hazards, which could be a nice reference in Smash if they took reduced damage from certain stage hazzards. Byleth can also ocassionally heal a tiny portion of damage dealt in Three Houses, which would be a nice touch in Smash as a random low% chance on some attacks.

Two of his personal attacks from his own boss battle strike me as missing. Pale Horse, a move that inflicts status effects (including mini, so definitely workable in Smash, albeit probably too good if not used right) and Heartless Angel, a move that reduces enemies HP to 1. Pale Horse kind of vanished from his repertoire after Final Fantasy VII, but Heartless Angel stuck around in other appearances. Of course, it's kind of questionable how it would even work in Smash and overall, Sephiroth is represented very well.

They don't even do the fighting in their own games, but from what abilities they do possess, yeah, it's well represented.

His strongest attacks Ragnarok and Ars Arcanum, both a rushing combo of attacks, are missing. Probably more workable, however, is a common weak ability he has called Strike Raid, where he throws his Keyblade like a boomerang. He can also glide in his own games, so put him down as a candidate for that if it's ever brought back as a mechanic.

Really don't know much about these series.

Phew. That took forever. I'm sure there's a lot I missed, but I focused mainly on the really identifiable features.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Villager was at best missing a Fishing Rod. ...Which Isabelle has. Isabelle however has little to do with work projects, her big thing, so if somehow the Fishing Rod could be moved to Villager while giving Isabelle some new Work Project-related moves, that'd be cool. She has an item or two referencing it, but it's fairly absent.

To clarify, Hero isn't just Eleven, but 4 characters in one, with their own voices. If anybody is missing a move, it would work well to somewhat add it. However, as a player of the series, all the fundaments are covered except the concept of changing equipment, and the gimmick they have(MP and Critical Hits) are massively good that I'd argue they're just fine otherwise.

Mii Fighters are technically not the Miis from the Sports and other series. It's more taking what they are, a customizable character that is specifically playable based upon whatever game they're in. They're not actually missing anything overall because they're Smash OC's to a degree. A good way to put it is they're not fully from the Wii Series games, or even Find MIi. They're basically nothing more than the Mii Creator Channel characters come to life in an all new game. That said, I am totally on with a specific Mii(not Mii Fighter) as based upon the Wii Series of games, with more customization like returning weight, but also either having just hats or some kind of non-moveset-based customization, since that's what makes them stand out. The only other class of note is Mii Mage, but the idea is that Mii Gunner already covers that as the Mage concept is more about projectiles than magical blows(and magical blows is just basically brawling with sparkly fists, if you will. So it's partially covered). I'm not saying it would be a bad class, but I see where they were going with it.

Sheik also transforms into Zelda, which used to be there. XD But yeah, where the hell is the Harp?

Yep, PP's back air is spitting fire, and it lasts quite a bit too. So it's... okay?

To point out for Pikmin & Olimar, Rock Pikmin aren't so much missing as there's much more usable Pikmin or other species of options. Basically, the issue is there's a lot of unique ones as choices. It's better to go with an Echo and add these other ones. At worst they can be kind of similar to some(I.E. Rock and Purple can have similarities), though to also be fair, as both are actually part of the Echo character, not just Olimar, it's hard to say how Sakurai would even attempt to do so. Does every Pikmin need a counterpart or at least some need to be reused? This is a unique situation that has yet to come up. Every Echo is of a singular character, none of the double/combo characters. But either way, I remember there being more than Rock Pikmin of note, though it's the most notable.

Daisy's an oddball because canon is weird anyway. However, spin-offs have been fair game for a while besides just the RPG's alone(which PP borrows a little from). Luigi's own series is kind of odd to call a straight spin-off, but he does borrow from it. Regardless, Peach easily could use some of the Vibe Scepter, and Daisy clearly shouldn't be using the Toads like that, especially as throws. Those are just awkward and she's easy to fix up. Lastly, the whole sports thing isn't really needed cause it's not entirely what Daisy was about. She was always a Peach substitute/clone to begin with, regardless of the game, and the only things really of note to her otherwise is referencing Super Mario Land. If you want someone truly tied to sports, that's more accurate to Waluigi, who was created for those games and has a much more legitimate hand in them(not to say it's the only thing he should do).

Lucario can learn both Metal Claw and Meteor Mash, and it shouldn't be hard for the former to be worked into a physical attack somewhere. Though it's worth noting his fighting style is more anime-based and more specifically like a disciplined fighter. Steel isn't really notable to his character even in the games, where he gets few moves. It seems more closer to the lore of a person training; "Hardened their body into steel". ...Which ironically gives more weaknesses, but still. However, its ability, Aura, wants you to hit it more to effectively increase its potential. So it gets into rougher and rougher battles, and this could be something common among Steel types, maybe? So while it doesn't really make sense to the Pokemon games, it surprisingly fits a bit in Smash, without being about giving it type-related moves.

As for Cloud, the weird thing is? He's pretty well-rounded and makes sense. Limit Break was a lot more important as a mechanic than magic alone. And while magic is notable too, respectively, that's not the only important part in Final Fantasy in general(7 or otherwise). There's also a lot of FF characters, many who focus way more on magic. On the other hand, Sephiroth has a fair amount of it, while being a more agile fighter than Cloud, representing some of it. It's also worth noting that the original Fighter class character couldn't use actual magic, and that's more or less the role of Cloud, whereas bosses often could, like Sephiroth. So it might be also kind of trying to represent the general unique FF bits beyond VII directly. Heck, oddly enough, till way later on, the universe was even called FFVII till a later update(which makes sense, as it still had elements from previous games, it's just primarily VII).

As for Sephiroth, yeah, some moves are missing. Can't say much beyond that, though.

Ike is a case where a projectile doesn't mesh with his playstyle all that well. So I'd argue he's fine just as he is. Something more like better frame data or super armor might fit better. Not all need a projectile to work well.

 

[Jotari]

To clarify, Hero isn't just Eleven, but 4 characters in one, with their own voices. If anybody is missing a move, it would work well to somewhat add it. However, as a player of the series, all the fundaments are covered except the concept of changing equipment, and the gimmick they have(MP and Critical Hits) are massively good that I'd argue they're just fine otherwise.

Only four? I would have thought he solidly represented all of them given the basics of his moveset. But now that I think on it, I do recall someone saying he should get Falcon Slash at some point, which I jotted down on my list of custom specials. Though I personally don't know how important Falcon Slash is as a technique for Dragon Quest in general.

Mii Fighters are technically not the Miis from the Sports and other series. It's more taking what they are, a customizable character that is specifically playable based upon whatever game they're in. They're not actually missing anything overall because they're Smash OC's to a degree. A good way to put it is they're not fully from the Wii Series games, or even Find MIi. They're basically nothing more than the Mii Creator Channel characters come to life in an all new game. That said, I am totally on with a specific Mii(not Mii Fighter) as based upon the Wii Series of games, with more customization like returning weight, but also either having just hats or some kind of non-moveset-based customization, since that's what makes them stand out. The only other class of note is Mii Mage, but the idea is that Mii Gunner already covers that as the Mage concept is more about projectiles than magical blows(and magical blows is just basically brawling with sparkly fists, if you will. So it's partially covered). I'm not saying it would be a bad class, but I see where they were going with it.

Well Mii Mage would be good in respect to Fighter Costumes. As all the costumes that general fit into the mage archtype end up being Mii Sword FIghter costumes using a staff or wand as a sword. And in general I think magic is distinct enough that you could make it different from Mii Gunner, especially when you have nothing to base it on and could do literally anything you want.

Yep, PP's back air is spitting fire, and it lasts quite a bit too. So it's... okay?

Well that kind of raises a point about representation. How much representation of a move is needed for it to be that move. Clearly giving him fire on that back air is inspired by the fact that Piranha Plants shoot fire, but at the same time, it's obviously not that move. Piranha Plants a very specific method in which they shoot fire balls, angled in one of four directions. As, I think someone pointed out when I first brought this up on the thread, we also don't necessarily need it, as there are already a lot of fire based projectiles in the game already...So yeah, maybe it is okay to just be referenced on an aerial, even though it's one of the most common things Piranha Plants need. Course no one cares about Plant as a fighter so it's all moot.

To point out for Pikmin & Olimar, Rock Pikmin aren't so much missing as there's much more usable Pikmin or other species of options. Basically, the issue is there's a lot of unique ones as choices. It's better to go with an Echo and add these other ones. At worst they can be kind of similar to some(I.E. Rock and Purple can have similarities), though to also be fair, as both are actually part of the Echo character, not just Olimar, it's hard to say how Sakurai would even attempt to do so. Does every Pikmin need a counterpart or at least some need to be reused? This is a unique situation that has yet to come up. Every Echo is of a singular character, none of the double/combo characters. But either way, I remember there being more than Rock Pikmin of note, though it's the most notable.

Olimar is a case where an Echo could make a lot of sense. Not only is there readily available characters like Louie and Alf who fight just like him, but there's a clear mechanic for an Echo fighter. Namely reverting to Olimar's old Brawl playstyle of six random pikmin as opposed to three deterministic pikmin. That's an old fighting style that would be very easy to implement that would deserve an Echo. As for the Rock Pikmin, they could be like Winged Pikmin and only exist on a special. Though Olimar's specials are all kind of needed already for the whole moveset to function.

Daisy's an oddball because canon is weird anyway. However, spin-offs have been fair game for a while besides just the RPG's alone(which PP borrows a little from). Luigi's own series is kind of odd to call a straight spin-off, but he does borrow from it. Regardless, Peach easily could use some of the Vibe Scepter, and Daisy clearly shouldn't be using the Toads like that, especially as throws. Those are just awkward and she's easy to fix up. Lastly, the whole sports thing isn't really needed cause it's not entirely what Daisy was about. She was always a Peach substitute/clone to begin with, regardless of the game, and the only things really of note to her otherwise is referencing Super Mario Land. If you want someone truly tied to sports, that's more accurate to Waluigi, who was created for those games and has a much more legitimate hand in them(not to say it's the only thing he should do).

I think for Daisy it comes down to design. People just like the look of sporty Daisy as a character. Plus, it's not like you can take much from Super Mario Land. You could pull a Zelda and give her the fire-balls-that-aren't-fire-balls-and-are-just-bouncing-balls thing, but would that even look good or work well? I feel like the above suggestion of just completely revamping Peach and leaving Dasiy as Peach's old moveset is the most workable way of decloning them, or just tossing Dasiy back into a costume.

As for Cloud, the weird thing is? He's pretty well-rounded and makes sense. Limit Break was a lot more important as a mechanic than magic alone. And while magic is notable too, respectively, that's not the only important part in Final Fantasy in general(7 or otherwise). There's also a lot of FF characters, many who focus way more on magic. On the other hand, Sephiroth has a fair amount of it, while being a more agile fighter than Cloud, representing some of it. It's also worth noting that the original Fighter class character couldn't use actual magic, and that's more or less the role of Cloud, whereas bosses often could, like Sephiroth. So it might be also kind of trying to represent the general unique FF bits beyond VII directly. Heck, oddly enough, till way later on, the universe was even called FFVII till a later update(which makes sense, as it still had elements from previous games, it's just primarily VII).

Yeah, and for full coverage I should mention Cloud can also summon giant monsters to do his bidding, and that this is a recurring and important aspect of almost all Final Fantasy games...but it's not like we at want him to be able to do that in Smash. They managed to implement it in his stage, and that's good enough.

Ike is a case where a projectile doesn't mesh with his playstyle all that well. So I'd argue he's fine just as he is. Something more like better frame data or super armor might fit better. Not all need a projectile to work well.

I feel like Eruption could be modified into a full on projectile, by just keeping it's maximum range and lowering it's minimum power, and making it more horizontal in nature than vertical. It's true that mechanically he doesn't need it, but I still want it. Maybe even just makin git his Final Smash activation being a long range sword beam rather than a close slash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Eh, Eruption suddenly being a projectile kind of ruins the point behind it. I feel like if anything, maybe change up the dynamic more. Does Ike also need a Counter? Like, changing Eruption to Down B and giving him a projectile might work? Maybe?

As for Pikmin & Captain, having more than 3 Pikmin actually becomes a balancing nightmare but also is a much bigger tax on the system. Summons are very much kept simple and a small amount to prevent this issue.

As for what I mean by Hero, it's that only 4 Heroes are represented in the game, and all the spells available are shared by one of them. There's possibly a few missing ones that Three, Five, Eight, or Eleven can use, though.

I don't think design really works for Daisy in the end. She's a Princess first and a Sports character second. She can certainly gain a move or two, but she's still meant to play like Peach, and well, Peach is going to keep the Princess design. Divergence is good, but she's much easier to just diversify without losing her core design. That, and she already has a sports move(Tennis Racket and Golf Club like Peach). though I could see maybe Neutral B be a Soccer Ball hit or something? Not the best, but could work. The worst part is her aerials would be great to change... but that would mean she can't float, and that requires a massive overhaul. Keeping in mind Echoes pretty much would stay that, and other clones often diverge a bit, well, realistically it's somewhat limited. That's not to say, ones like Samus and Dark Samus can't evolve more, but that's only cause Dark Samus can still have some slightly changed up moves without much difference. Like the missiles being, say, a multiple amount.

 

[Jotari]

Eh, Eruption suddenly being a projectile kind of ruins the point behind it. I feel like if anything, maybe change up the dynamic more. Does Ike also need a Counter? Like, changing Eruption to Down B and giving him a projectile might work? Maybe?

Well as I said, no, I don't think Ike needs a counter. But I would also like to see his axe in there as a down special. Though, what about keeping the counter, but making it a long range counter? That could certainly work as a way of giving him a projectile that doesn't actually interfere with his moveset much. It just gives him more protection from enemy projectiles and disjointed attacks.

I don't think design really works for Daisy in the end. She's a Princess first and a Sports character second. She can certainly gain a move or two, but she's still meant to play like Peach, and well, Peach is going to keep the Princess design. Divergence is good, but she's much easier to just diversify without losing her core design. That, and she already has a sports move(Tennis Racket and Golf Club like Peach). though I could see maybe Neutral B be a Soccer Ball hit or something? Not the best, but could work. The worst part is her aerials would be great to change... but that would mean she can't float, and that requires a massive overhaul. Keeping in mind Echoes pretty much would stay that, and other clones often diverge a bit, well, realistically it's somewhat limited. That's not to say, ones like Samus and Dark Samus can't evolve more, but that's only cause Dark Samus can still have some slightly changed up moves without much difference. Like the missiles being, say, a multiple amount.

Honestly I think removing Daisy's ability to float, but giving her increased power in other areas would be a perfectly viable method for making an Echo. That's really what I think Echoes work best as. Changing one core feature of the character to have end up with one that fights very similarly, but still fundamentally different. And best of all, very easy to actually implement. The only Echo that actually functions this way is Lucina however. But I think that's overall a good templtate to work with, as opposed to two fighters fighting identically (Daisy/Peach), virtually identically (Belmonts), identically but visually different (Samus/Dark Samus) and not completely identically, but still kind of functionally identically (Street Fighter, Pit and some of the classic pre ultimate clones).

Chrom's pretty cool though, changing even one special makes a big difference (especially when it's a special that good). I guess Fire Emblem just knows how to make Echoes appeal to me. One idea I had for an Echo prerelease was Celica as a Robin Echo, since she's the other lord that uses sword and magic. With the main difference being she has a Pichu damaging effect on her specials, in exchange for not having any durability like Robin.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Actually, that's not how Echoes work. They're supposed to have bare minimum changes to begin with but still play fairly similarly, with sometimes one mechanic being gone. Unlike other clones, who can easily have some major differences(ignoring characters who still used a model to be created, like Ness via Mario), Echoes are more straight moveset clones by definition. ...Whether or not they have some kind of unique gimmick or change(usually they tend to be better in every other game. Really, Daisy is the first one of a typical moveset clone from usual games where her difference is completely unnoticeable on any level of play. Richter and Dark Samus are godawful at it, but their Holy Water and Electricity only difference plays enough of a role to diverge them, not terribly much different from how some moveset clones were in many games. Very minor changes, but do make some tangible difference.

Any, the point is Daisy is an Echo, not a Model Swap Fighter alone. She getting an overhaul would completely change how she plays way more than any Echo ever had. It's not a simple lack of a gimmick, but requires an even more immense amount of work to make sure all her move correlate well with each other. And they... wouldn't, cause her moveset is still a dainty princess in the end. That's not saying it's the best moveset ever. That, and she was literally advertised as being what is basically the epitome of an Echo, so she can't diverge much without losing her only role. Simply put, the idea she'd have new aerials means a lot more work to rebalance her as is. In other words, that's a lot of work for an Echo, and could even have kept her from getting in.

I know I'm more or less playing Devil's Advocate, but that's because I'm a game designer myself, so I understand the core situation of character coherency. Having lots of move references is cool. Butttttttt that doesn't make a moveset work. It's very rare you can put moves together from the games and shuffle them around in logical spots and still make a very competent fighter(Mr. Game & Watch is quite literally it for this). Anyway, she couldn't even be a proper echo if she had to wear a different outfit, as that messes with the overall model. It was dress or nothing. Now, as a non-Echo, she has tons of great potential that I'd love to see. Sports, her tomboyish attitude can be more active during battles, etc.

 

[Jotari]

Actually, that's not how Echoes work. They're supposed to have bare minimum changes to begin with but still play fairly similarly, with sometimes one mechanic being gone. Unlike other clones, who can easily have some major differences(ignoring characters who still used a model to be created, like Ness via Mario), Echoes are more straight moveset clones by definition. ...Whether or not they have some kind of unique gimmick or change(usually they tend to be better in every other game. Really, Daisy is the first one of a typical moveset clone from usual games where her difference is completely unnoticeable on any level of play. Richter and Dark Samus are godawful at it, but their Holy Water and Electricity only difference plays enough of a role to diverge them, not terribly much different from how some moveset clones were in many games. Very minor changes, but do make some tangible difference.

But changing one central mechanic would be the bare minimum changes (okay well not literally, the bare minimum is putting them as a character slot without even bothering to change the model).

Any, the point is Daisy is an Echo, not a Model Swap Fighter alone. She getting an overhaul would completely change how she plays way more than any Echo ever had. It's not a simple lack of a gimmick, but requires an even more immense amount of work to make sure all her move correlate well with each other. And they... wouldn't, cause her moveset is still a dainty princess in the end. That's not saying it's the best moveset ever. That, and she was literally advertised as being what is basically the epitome of an Echo, so she can't diverge much without losing her only role. Simply put, the idea she'd have new aerials means a lot more work to rebalance her as is. In other words, that's a lot of work for an Echo, and could even have kept her from getting in.

I legitimate don't know what you're actually saying here. Obviously if Peach or Daisy were retooled then Daisy would cease to be an Echo.

I know I'm more or less playing Devil's Advocate, but that's because I'm a game designer myself, so I understand the core situation of character coherency. Having lots of move references is cool. Butttttttt that doesn't make a moveset work. It's very rare you can put moves together from the games and shuffle them around in logical spots and still make a very competent fighter(Mr. Game & Watch is quite literally it for this). Anyway, she couldn't even be a proper echo if she had to wear a different outfit, as that messes with the overall model. It was dress or nothing. Now, as a non-Echo, she has tons of great potential that I'd love to see. Sports, her tomboyish attitude can be more active during battles, etc.

I never actually suggested Daisy wear a different outfit. I said people (not even necessarily myself, my opinion on Daisy is pretty null) gravitate towards giving Daisy more sports based move because they like her design.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The bare minimum change is "adding a new move", not changing a mechanic. Changing a mechanic actually affects them a lot very often in how they play. Lucina and Chrom have a very different playstyle from Marth and Roy due to the lack of a sweetspot. They have a highly different approach. However, this doesn't actually change that much in the end because it's not things like new frame data or even new moves. They're the same moves more or less(Chrom's Up B aside), but just happen to have unique applications. The thing about Daisy/Peach is that their entire movesets are based upon the dress and floating. Removing either would cause a creation of a new moveset that isn't just "new applications", but requiring tons of new animations and abilities. They're fairly different situations.

...Yes, that's the point. Daisy got in entirely cause she was an Echo, so making her not one doesn't actually help. She can absolutely branch out, but she doesn't need to suddenly go from an Echo to a Model Swap Fighter(my guess is either you don't understand what Model Swap Fighter legitimately means, or something else I am not sure of). I admit I kind of get confusing too, though. But the whole point is she's still completely accurate anyway, but that's cause Daisy is identical to Peach bar personality. The worst was noted before, the use of Toads, but yeah.

Daisy can't really do a lot of sports stuff properly in a dress. It looks awkward and there's a reason she has a sports outfit, and it's not just cause others do. It's because those animations plus how you should be dressing for them, and based upon having unique gear. You can implement, say, a soccer ball without issues, but if you fully going into her sports abilities, a lot won't flow right using a dress model and require bigger changes. It's actually a big reason why you can't just suddenly throw the most known outfit for BOTW in to get that version of Zelda in. The dresses in these cases are part of the moveset and overall character design. I get the confusion here, though. I didn't mean to basically put words in your mouth.

 

[Aligo]

I know this is not too relevant, but Mythra does fight on her own in Torna.

There are a couple of little extra things that could be added in like a zair with the help of Rex, different sheilds, or attack/special cancels, but I understand that they were a bit limited with the engine.

They actually had to downscale the textures quite a bit from XC2 to smash. In the same vein, maybe a more powerful system would allow for one of the Kong's to have an animal buddy. While I am on that thought, perhaps DK could be able to pick up and throw stage objects- it would be hilarious for him to be a hard counter to Steve.

 

[Jotari]

The bare minimum change is "adding a new move", not changing a mechanic. Changing a mechanic actually affects them a lot very often in how they play. Lucina and Chrom have a very different playstyle from Marth and Roy due to the lack of a sweetspot. They have a highly different approach. However, this doesn't actually change that much in the end because it's not things like new frame data or even new moves. They're the same moves more or less(Chrom's Up B aside), but just happen to have unique applications. The thing about Daisy/Peach is that their entire movesets are based upon the dress and floating. Removing either would cause a creation of a new moveset that isn't just "new applications", but requiring tons of new animations and abilities. They're fairly different situations.

Precisely...thats my entire point. Changing a gimmick is trivial to implement in a mechanical sense, yet has massive ramifications for the character in a gameplay sense. Have I not been clear? What dod you think I was saying?

...Yes, that's the point. Daisy got in entirely cause she was an Echo, so making her not one doesn't actually help. She can absolutely branch out, but she doesn't need to suddenly go from an Echo to a Model Swap Fighter(my guess is either you don't understand what Model Swap Fighter legitimately means, or something else I am not sure of). I admit I kind of get confusing too, though. But the whole point is she's still completely accurate anyway, but that's cause Daisy is identical to Peach bar personality. The worst was noted before, the use of Toads, but yeah.

Daisy can't really do a lot of sports stuff properly in a dress. It looks awkward and there's a reason she has a sports outfit, and it's not just cause others do. It's because those animations plus how you should be dressing for them, and based upon having unique gear. You can implement, say, a soccer ball without issues, but if you fully going into her sports abilities, a lot won't flow right using a dress model and require bigger changes. It's actually a big reason why you can't just suddenly throw the most known outfit for BOTW in to get that version of Zelda in. The dresses in these cases are part of the moveset and overall character design. I get the confusion here, though. I didn't mean to basically put words in your mouth.

I never suggested Daisy's model be swapped. Look at my previous comment again. I don't think i cam be any clearer than that. What I actually did suggest was she lose the float ability and receive damage and frame data buffs to compensate leading a more powerful but less versatile version of Peach.

I know I'm more or less playing Devil's Advocate, but that's because I'm a game designer myself, so I understand the core situation of character coherency. Having lots of move references is cool.

I think you're trying to play devil's advocate, byt its not really working as youre somehow missing what I'm saying, and assuming that I'm not looking at this from a perspectice of game design. I am. I have a Bachelors in Computer Games Development. I don't think that should be relevant when discussing Smash, but if it matters to you, I have literal credentials.

So I'll sum as clearly as I can what I'm trying to discuss. I'm trying to talk about how you can make characters that play distinct and differently using the least amount of development time and work by changing singular key features that are easy to edit.

I know this is not too relevant, but Mythra does fight on her own in Torna.

There are a couple of little extra things that could be added in like a zair with the help of Rex, different sheilds, or attack/special cancels, but I understand that they were a bit limited with the engine.

They actually had to downscale the textures quite a bit from XC2 to smash. In the same vein, maybe a more powerful system would allow for one of the Kong's to have an animal buddy. While I am on that thought, perhaps DK could be able to pick up and throw stage objects- it would be hilarious for him to be a hard counter to Steve.

Yeah, I've played Torna. I don't think she actually does anything particularly noteworthy there that's lacking from her moveset. I guees her pet leviathan that shows up for about five seconds is missing, but thats only a tiny bit important as lore and is better as a background stage element (if it isnt already).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd say that changing Daisy's float takes wayyyyyyy too long to adjust balance to, which is why I disagree with it being a good way. At that point, she's just too divergent, but also, yeah, as I said, she never played like anything but Peach. Regardless, I get why she'd be an awesome non-echo too.

We're just talking over each other. Well, I got nothing more to say.

 

[Jotari]

Okay, I see there's been a whole big long conversation about Ganondorf and Falcon that I've had too many times that I'm not going to jump into (I'll just reiterate the potential of Demise, though personally I don't want Ganondorf to fight massively different that he currently does). Instead I'm going to sacrifice an hour, maybe more, of my life to sum up this entire thread with every character in the game and what major aspects they're missing. If something is in just one game, like Donkey Kong's Coconut gun or Mario's Cappy, then I'm not going to really count is as classic. People might want it, but it's not actually a defined aspect of the character if it's only appeared as gimmick in one game (of course if the character themself has only appeared in one or two games then it's a different story). My knowledge of Nintendo series is pretty dang good by average standards, but also not perfect, so I'm sure I'll miss a lot. Anyway, here we go.

The most obvious thing that seems to be missing here is the Ground Pound. There are quite a few power ups in general, and sure, many that have appeared in multiple games, but as far things go that Mario can do, damaging enemies by jumping on them is his most fundamental and it's missing. This could, and I think, absoluty should be implemented by dealing damage by footstooling as a kind of inverse of Piranha Plant, but even if a mechanic like that was there, Mario can do a ground pound in pretty much every 3D appearance. That doesn't mean a Ground Pound necessarily has to be put in Mario's moveset, but it does strike me as one of the things he can most commonly do that is missing.

He's been discussed at length already, barrel throwing is something he's done since the arcade days and is continually reaffirmed as a thing in his own games. Shooting out of a barrel is also something very common in his own games and could definitely replace his current lack luster recovery. Animal companions are also a thing, but would change him quite a lot if implemented into his moveset.

Link's also got a lot of discussion recently on the thread, but it's been about specific games. If you take all of his appearances together, the main thing that seems to be missing is magic. Link has used magic rods since the first game and, while not as common as his three specials already, magic rods of some form have reappeared frequently in the Zelda series. Again though, this isn't necessarily something he needs to have, but it's definitely something he can do. Some people want Masks for Young Link, but that's really only been a thing in one title. Still not impossible though if there's a mission to keep all three and differentiate them.

Definitely Ice Beams. Wave and Plasma Beams you could claim are there with electric and fire attacks, but freezing enemies is one of the most important things about Samus that she does in almost every game yet is completely absent in Smash. Power Bombs, Space Jump and Spider Ball are also very common abilities that are absent in Smash, though it would be questionable how the Spider Ball in particular could work effectively. Dark Samus is missing almost everything and could easily be decloned completely.

Transformations...yeah, it's kind of weird to think about, but in a lot of Yoshi's own games he transforms into various vehicles. This has been entirely absent from Smash...and probably for good reason. What people here have mostly talked about is less what is missing from Yoshi and more mechanically how the things that are there should work in terms of eating, creating and throwing eggs. Flying and spitting fire is also something he can frequently do that was there in his old Final Smash but now doesn't have a place. The fire might not be necessary, but the winged form could definitely be used for a proper recovery.

A whole bunch of powers. Kirby really has a lot of abilities and many of them could easily replace stuff he does already. Too much to list. But what he does have already isn't necessarily unrepresentative. My personal mention would go to the Beam ability as one of his oldest and most basic attacks. The sword is also something people seem to want a lot beyond his final smash.

I'm not too familiar with the Star Fox series, have only played Lylat wars, where, funnily enough, the characters can fight outside of their vehicles using rocket launchers, but Assault or Command seems to be the obvious place to draw from for grounded combat in Star Fox. But overall Star Fox's most generally accepted gameplay is very different to Smash and, if you squint hard enough, is kind of present in Smash.

I would say Iron Tail is a pretty well associated attack from Pikachu that could certainly replace Skull Bash. But overall, speed+electicity is what Pikachu is all about and that's what is there. Pikachu does wear a lot of different costumes that could be more reflected in alts though. Pichu is pretty much the same. Maybe some "cute" attacks from Pokemon that lower enemies stats if you really want.

You could say some of the same stuff about Mari's ground pound, but overall pretty well represented.

:ultNess: So, yeah, you might be surprised to hear this if you haven't played Earthbound, but Ness has his own special signature move that is just completely absent. It's called PK Rockin. You could say some of his generic psychic attacks are it, and I've heard someone suggest PK Thunder on himself is it, but nothing in Smash has been identified as PK Rockin and it's actually super weird. Other than that, Nes uses two of the three weapons he's able to use in Earthbound, the baseball bat and the yo-yo. He's missing the slingshot. Though yo-yo and slingshots are generic weapons all the party members can use in Earthbound.

So like Star Fox, his gameplay is completely different. It would be possible to maybe squeeze out some more stuff based on boosts and mid race repair fields and stuff, but it would all probably be a bit contrived. He also has that gun he never used in Smash, though I don't think he ever uses it anywhere else either.

Obvious fairy moves are missing. Could be implemented pretty easily with a few more sparkles.

There's certainly a lot to draw from in Super Princess Peach, but that's only one game that's quite old now. On the other hand, it's the only actual "Peach game" you could readily identify. So her vibes and stuff from that do still stand out. Daisy is in a similar boat, though people would like to see her take more from her sports games.

People have pointed to some specific punches and stuff that could definitely work. But overall what Bowser does is pound around and breath fire, which is there in Smash. Though if his Fire Breath could work in Fire Shot from SSB4's customs then that would be nice.

If you really want something more canonical for them, the falcon they grab onto at the end of every stage would definitely work as a recovery. And I'm actually a little surprised they never went that route. Though I think it is already represented in their stage entrance.

The harp. It isn't even there as a taunt! Sheik did two things in Ocarina of Time. Play the harp and vanish. The latter is there but the former has only ever appeared in Melee's intro. In addition, there's now a whole host of Sheikah weapons and abilities introduced in Breath of the Wild that could potentially be used, even if we've never seen Sheik, specifically, use them.

Yep, light arrows. Talked about extensively, moving on.

He literally has only ever thrown pills, and that's there, so he's good. Though if you really want to shake up Smash a bit, he could be given a healing move or two. He is a doctor after all.

The Shield of Seals. It's kind of a big thing about Marth. It's the titular Fire Emblem game. Yeah, Marth used a Shield. In another world maybe he was a Link clone with different specials. How to implement it though? I think maybe turning his counter into something more resembling Sephiroth's scintilla.
In addition to swords, both could use lances in their own game. Lucina has also become some what connected to bows in spin off materials. She also used Aether, like Chrom. They also have a distinctive jump and spinning attack both use in gameplay and is specifically pointed out in a cutscene.

Discussed at length. Missing a long range projectile and a trident.

He doesn't have a move expressly identified as "psychic", but in general he does use all his psychic powers. He also used barrier quite extensively in his movies and that's something that could be worked in if need be.

Long range attacks. It's funny, and possibly a result of him debuting in Smash before his own game, but Roy can attack at long range unlike most sword users in his series, yet he's a close range fighter in Smash. I don't think the two ideas are impossible to unify in Smash, so long as his projectile discourages spamming and encourages rushing in. Something like PK Fire or Sacred Flame would probably work best.

It doesn't get much focus, but Mr Game and Watch is actually probably the most well represented character in smash. Almost every single frame of his comes from some Game and Watch game. There's still a lot that aren't used as it was a full console library, but overall he has nothing to complain about.

Discussed a bit, but I can't really remember what people have focused don most. What stands out to me is that he's missing a projectile which he sort of uses in Kirby along with a stall and drop down aerial.

There are a lot of new weapons in Kid Icarus Uprising that are not seeing use. Pit doesn't exactly need to use them, but Dark Pit absolutely could to be decloned. In addition, as I noted, Pit could use a hammer in his own game. He also had Centurions helping him, which was his old final smash but now is no longer present. I also think the Great Sacred Treasure could make for a better final smash, freeing up the regular sacred trasures for his specials again.

Ike is in the same boat as Roy, having a long range attack in his own game. Closest Smash got to that was Aether Wave in Smash 4, though Eruption does extend pretty far at full charge. Neither are Ike's sword beam though. He also uses axes and even has an associated axe he inherited from his father called Urvan. I think we're passed every Fire Emblem character needing counter now and his axe could work as a down special similar to Byleth's.

Like most pokemon, there's a lot of moves you could use, but overall the fundamentals are well represented.

I don't think he's been talked about much. He's pretty well represented. He did have a charge attack in DK64 that could be used as a Smash attack, but not exactly classic. He has also flown a lot with the whole Diddy Kong racing, but not really workable unless it's an entrance or something.

Like Ness, Lucas has his own special PK attack, PK Love, but unlike Ness, it is more obviously represented in his normal attacks. Aside from that, Lucas's main role in Mother 3 is actually as a healer and a shielder. He kind of has healing already with PSI Magnet, but a PSI Shield or Counter would not be remiss.

A long history, so a lot that could potentially be taken, but overall he's fast and that's Sonic's jam. The most obvious thing to me is the shield orbs he could get in his older games, but they might work better as an item for smash in general than a specific attack on Sonic.

Largely fine. WAll his most recurring traits are there in some form, from what I can see.

Rock Pikmin are a noticable absence.

No specific steel moves, I think. Maybe he could get metal claw?

Dynamite was a feature of one of his two original games that could potentially be implemented. Though R.O.B is less classic for anything from his actual games and more for just being R.O.B.

Is in the Kirby situation. A lot of classic stuff he does do, but overall largely well represented already. In fact, very well represented.

Seems well represented to me. I guess she could use the Luma Spin.

Reiterate what I've said about the other Pokemon. Still more you could do, but the fundamentals are there.

Surpisingly, anything from their own games. Wii Sports and Wii Play do exist. Would anyone object to a four Mii fighter, Mii Sportsmaster?

They aped a lot of Pit's moves to make her in Smash 4, but they, whether intentionally or not, did still end up taking a lot of what she does in her own boss fight anyway. What's noteworthy about Palutena is what she used to be able to do as a result of custom specials that she can't do anymore.

Their signature skill Ignis isn't present. Maybe should replace the final smash now that Chrom is playable. There's also has some spoilershy stuff with the villain that could be worked in, if only even as an alt. Also known to buff allies, which could potentially be worked in a team battle or as some kind of Monado arts.

Monado Buster! Pretty cool, powerful attack he's missing from his own games. Monado Arts are also cool and somewhat resembles Xenoblade gameplay, but not actually how the Monado itself works in Xenoblade.

Not something he's done, I think, but he's clearly also based on the Super Mario World end boss where one of the attacks is to drop a large marble looking ball called a Big Steely. Maybe he should drop a Little Steely?

It's not a complicated game. Everything is pretty much there.

Magic. It's a big thing in Final Fantasy and Cloud does use it in his own game. In addition, he has two of his seven limit breaks absent, Braver and Meteor Rain. Not sure how you could work them in outside of Custom Specials though.

Corrin also uses magic and healing staves in Fates. Though I can understand why that was downplayed compared to dragon powers.

Bayonetta uses a lot of other weapons, but none of them are exactly iconic or important compared to her guns.

Also uses quite a few other wepaons, but what there already kind of works. Similar to the pokemon, a lot you could add, but don't really need to.

Bouncing tail is the obvious one. Other than that the fundamentals are there.

Knives are one of the classic Catlevannia items missing frmo the specialsl line up. Simon also used a shield via Dracula's Rib in his second game which wouldn't be the worst special. The most iconic thing however, that they're missing, is Item Crashes. Using some of their ammo to do a more powerful attack. Well I guess it's there for their final Smahs, but in manifests in a lot of other items in Castlevannia too.

He can drop cannon balls from the sky, which could potentially be implemented like Pikachu's Thunder for a special, but overall I think he's pretty solid.

Nothing of note to say. Haven't played more modern Pokemon games.

Fire balls. A staple of piranha plants that is missing, except maybe I think on a back aerial.

I've only played Dragon Quest VIII, so there's nothing obvious that jumps out to me. I'm sure there's a lot you could do, but he seems pretty well rounded as is.

I've only played the first Banjo Kazooie game, which they're very well represented from. Though I think the second game has some more elaborate abilities that could be used.

The eagerness to use all the weapons has overlooked the things Byleth actually has proficiencies for in their own game. Namely Brawling and White Magic. An Enlightened One Alt would also be very much appreciated. It's super minor in Three Houses, but Byleth's personal class also takes no damage from terrain hazards, which could be a nice reference in Smash if they took reduced damage from certain stage hazzards. Byleth can also ocassionally heal a tiny portion of damage dealt in Three Houses, which would be a nice touch in Smash as a random low% chance on some attacks.

Two of his personal attacks from his own boss battle strike me as missing. Pale Horse, a move that inflicts status effects (including mini, so definitely workable in Smash, albeit probably too good if not used right) and Heartless Angel, a move that reduces enemies HP to 1. Pale Horse kind of vanished from his repertoire after Final Fantasy VII, but Heartless Angel stuck around in other appearances. Of course, it's kind of questionable how it would even work in Smash and overall, Sephiroth is represented very well.

They don't even do the fighting in their own games, but from what abilities they do possess, yeah, it's well represented.

His strongest attacks Ragnarok and Ars Arcanum, both a rushing combo of attacks, are missing. Probably more workable, however, is a common weak ability he has called Strike Raid, where he throws his Keyblade like a boomerang. He can also glide in his own games, so put him down as a candidate for that if it's ever brought back as a mechanic.

Really don't know much about these series.

Phew. That took forever. I'm sure there's a lot I missed, but I focused mainly on the really identifiable features.

I somehow missed Zero Suit Samus, Wario and Snake in this round up. So here they are now. Someone check if I missed anyone else.

Zero Suit Samus actually has nothing aside fromhe rparalyzer. She does a slide in Other M and that's it. So Smash made up a whip and rocket boots for her.
Most of his moves seem to come from his Wario Ware personality, if not animations. He does have his Wario Land rush as his forward Smash though. The most noticeable things missing are from his 3D Wario World games which I haven't personally played.
The most obvious is, of course, HIS GUN. Possible now with Joker in the game? Eh, maybe. He doesn't exactly need it. Snake is quite well represented all around, though I think his grenades are disliked by Snake players (or am I thinking of Sheik?). Brawl- or Brawl+ or whatever it was gave him a tranquilizer gun instead of his grenades which I like a lot, as reducing enemy stamina instead of health is an aspect to Metal Gear and having some kind of slow acting sleep attack is quite creative for Smash. In addition, I'm not sure if he has Stinger Missiles. These are the things he uses to take down Metal Gears, so they're kind of important. Maybe they're there in one of his Smash attacks or his final smash, I'm not super sure. Snake also has some unique status where copy right might actually be holding back some of his moves. As a lot of his equipment is real life weapons that are probably under copyright protection.