What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

[Jotari]

You summed it up pretty well. DK won't be too powerful with a projectile, he'd still have his weaknesses, and those are still very very big weaknesses and he has the worst disadvantage state of all the roster, and he's about the easiest to hit. Might as well give him good recovery to give him a fighting chance.

DK is worse than he ever was in Ultimate, and that's despite his great range, speed and even combos. He still doesn't really have much to approach, and has to get lucky hits in, which he can string lucky for him.

His moveset aged, but hasn't really been updated as much, and some veterans have it worse than others. I say Link is perfect now for example, Fox, Pikachu, Yoshi, Mario and even Samus all have very functionally great movesets , that even if they could have some updates still manage to represent their characteristics and unique abilities well.

DK not so much. Headbutt's ground burying properties could be added to the Hand Slap, make it so that that's what happens if you land the move up close, fits very well and gives it a necessary buff, or even niche usage, as who even uses Headbutt? Add the super armor on it and nothing of value is lost.

I'd rather Link get his tether grab back before calling him perfect. I think people who actually play Link prefer his regular grab since it's a more effective move, but imo that's an issue with frame data over the concept of a tether grab. Link's been using the Hook Shot since the early 90s, it's an integral part of his kit, removing it for fidelity to Breath of the Wild was a bad choice imo. Though I get they also wanted to distinguish him from the other two Link's on the roster.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd rather Link get his tether grab back before calling him perfect. I think people who actually play Link prefer his regular grab since it's a more effective move, but imo that's an issue with frame data over the concept of a tether grab. Link's been using the Hook Shot since the early 90s, it's an integral part of his kit, removing it for fidelity to Breath of the Wild was a bad choice imo. Though I get they also wanted to distinguish him from the other two Link's on the roster.

I mean Link is literally a perfect mix of his old core Smash Bros moveset and new stuff from BotW, and they made him so that he's not totally different from previous versions of Link, but still fresh enough and adjusted to latest installments. The lack of a Hookshot isn't an issue, there will always be a smaller Link alongside him on the roster anyway, and it made a sluggish character even more exploitable.

I wish they took the Link approach with more newcomers. Bowser is another character I feel is perfectly updated and upgraded, I want this for characters as DK, Kirby, Mewtwo, Zelda, Charizard and with a little to Mario and Pikachu too (their Down and Side B's respectively).

 

[Arthur97]

Shame about Bowser's "voice." Wouldn't mind reverting back to his old bair either. Using the shell was more unique than a backwards drop kick. Especially given his new forward smash.

However, I'm not that big on making most older fighter's movesets reflect modern games too much. Besides, that's effort that could potentially go into decloning clones which is arguably more important that putting Cappy into Mario's moveset.

That said, Zelda has very little to actually pull from in the first place. Anything they changed it to would likely be about as arbitrary as what she has.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Diddy Kong and StrangeKitten :

I think Spinning Kong can go to Dixie, but I still don't see how a projectile can fit into DK's moveset design.

Again, there's a reason why Sephiroth's slow, hard hitting disjoints and projectiles were tempered by being lightweight.

I don't think a projectile would make DK too powerful. It's DK we're talking about here: mister disadvantage so bad that some things only work on him, lol. I already listed other superheavies who have projectiles. There's also characters such as ROB, Snake, and Samus who have a bunch of really good projectiles while not weighing that much less than the superheavies. In the face of that, I don't think a barrel to throw would make DK any more of an overwhelming character than the ones I've mentioned. If the concern is that DK is fast and has disjoints on top of that, just look at Bowser. Bowser is just as fast and his moves are disjointed. He's still far from being top tier because being a big superheavy makes him get blown up easily. And that's with his good landing options in nair, dair, Bowser Bomb, Flying Slam, and even Flame Breath. All of which DK would still lack (a barrel may work okay as a discount Flame Breath, though).

Shame about Bowser's "voice." Wouldn't mind reverting back to his old bair either. Using the shell was more unique than a backwards drop kick. Especially given his new forward smash.

I miss the hell out of Koopa Klaw. It was such a damn cool move lol

 

[Perkilator]

On the topic of Bowser, I always thought Fire Shot should’ve been his neutral special in Ultimate.

 

[Quillion]

I'd rather Link get his tether grab back before calling him perfect. I think people who actually play Link prefer his regular grab since it's a more effective move, but imo that's an issue with frame data over the concept of a tether grab. Link's been using the Hook Shot since the early 90s, it's an integral part of his kit, removing it for fidelity to Breath of the Wild was a bad choice imo. Though I get they also wanted to distinguish him from the other two Link's on the roster.

I mean Link is literally a perfect mix of his old core Smash Bros moveset and new stuff from BotW, and they made him so that he's not totally different from previous versions of Link, but still fresh enough and adjusted to latest installments. The lack of a Hookshot isn't an issue, there will always be a smaller Link alongside him on the roster anyway, and it made a sluggish character even more exploitable.

I have a more extreme form of Jotari 's opinion as I've been saying for some time. I think making Link so tied to BotW alone was a mistake. Treating YL as a dumping ground for people who want a lefty Link with a hookshot isn't a solution either, since YL is meant to feel lighter and he doesn't even have the Master Sword.

The best solution would be to just have TP Link as an echo somehow. We could've left BotW Link as the "main" Link for the time being, but keep the old Link around somehow. At least he would better represent the pre-BotW era to that point.

I don't think a projectile would make DK too powerful. It's DK we're talking about here: mister disadvantage so bad that some things only work on him, lol. I already listed other superheavies who have projectiles. There's also characters such as ROB, Snake, and Samus who have a bunch of really good projectiles while not weighing that much less than the superheavies. In the face of that, I don't think a barrel to throw would make DK any more of an overwhelming character than the ones I've mentioned. If the concern is that DK is fast and has disjoints on top of that, just look at Bowser. Bowser is just as fast and his moves are disjointed. He's still far from being top tier because being a big superheavy makes him get blown up easily. And that's with his good landing options in nair, dair, Bowser Bomb, Flying Slam, and even Flame Breath. All of which DK would still lack (a barrel may work okay as a discount Flame Breath, though).

Still, I think giving DK better disadvantage and landing options is just a matter of changing the data behind the existing moves (albeit in a way that retains the drawback while not being overwhelming). Giving DK a projectile outright would be running counter to his design.

That said, Zelda has very little to actually pull from in the first place. Anything they changed it to would likely be about as arbitrary as what she has.

Ever heard of a thing called the Light Arrow?

On the topic of Bowser, I always thought Fire Shot should’ve been his neutral special in Ultimate.

I think the best solution would be to combine Fire Breath and Fire Shot into one move. Tap for a fireball, hold for a fire stream. It would be cool if the fire stream was more of a pseudo-projectile though.

I miss the hell out of Koopa Klaw. It was such a damn cool move lol

Following the above, Koopa Klaw should be combined with Flying Slam. Still a good combo starter, but you can still grab and pummel, and perhaps its "throw" is replaced with Flying Slam. I've had this opinion since about Smash 4.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Still, I think giving DK better disadvantage and landing options is just a matter of changing the data behind the existing moves (albeit in a way that retains the drawback while not being overwhelming). Giving DK a projectile outright would be running counter to his design.

I don't think it would run counter to his design, but that's a matter of opinion. Think we're best agreeing to disagree and moving on here lol

Following the above, Koopa Klaw should be combined with Flying Slam. Still a good combo starter, but you can still grab and pummel, and perhaps its "throw" is replaced with Flying Slam. I've had this opinion since about Smash 4.

Then he'd have a side B that does a huge slash if it doesn't grab, but still has the perks of Flying Slam. That would be nutty. I'm so down for this lol, let the Bowser supremacy begin! (Though they could keep it in check by giving it worse frame data. The thing that makes Flying Slam powerful is it's frame 6)

 

[Jotari]

I have a more extreme form of Jotari 's opinion as I've been saying for some time. I think making Link so tied to BotW alone was a mistake. Treating YL as a dumping ground for people who want a lefty Link with a hookshot isn't a solution either, since YL is meant to feel lighter and he doesn't even have the Master Sword.

The best solution would be to just have TP Link as an echo somehow. We could've left BotW Link as the "main" Link for the time being, but keep the old Link around somehow. At least he would better represent the pre-BotW era to that point.

Oh please no, not more Link's on the roster. Just integrate the Hook Shot into his adult moveset and make it a good move. Breath of the Wild Link is already doing all the classic Link stuff aside from that. Up Thrusts, Spin Attacks, Arrows, Boomerang, Jump attack. All the classic stuff is there. The only thing really out of place for a full representation of Link are the new bombs, which people absolute love and I think should stay for gameplay utility even after Zelda moves on from Breath of the Wild (I have some similar feelings on the Gale Boomerang, but ultimately both cases I just see as opportunities for custom specials).

The only thing really missing from Link's recurring kit (other than Hook Shot >.>) is the Shield Bash. Though I'm not sure how you could implement this outside of making it a special. His Down Tilt could also do to more visually resemble the Crouch Stab (though I guess it is directly based on that and was just made into a slash because a quick stab would be less noticable in Smash and would function a bit too much like Zelda's old down tilt, ie, only good for comboing into itself quickly).

One thing that isn't classic to Link, only appearing in one game, that I would like added is the Mortal Draw from Twilight Princess. Specifically, just make it the charging animation for his Forward Smash. Functionally Forward Smash is a fine move on its own, but it does bother me ever so slightly that it's based on nothing at all. Simply giving it the charging animation of the Mortal Draw would make it a reference and, imo, make the first hit look a lot cooler.

Also I think some serious consideration needs to be given to removing the Spin Attack as a special and moving it to his Down Smash. Okay, sure, it's grown in utility in the games to not be an absolutely awful recovery, but still, Link has never used the Spin Attack to turn himself into a helicopter in the mainline games. Meanwhile there are things like the Sailcloth, Paraglider and (for Toon Link) the Deku Leaf that could be less contrived recoveries.

Following the above, Koopa Klaw should be combined with Flying Slam. Still a good combo starter, but you can still grab and pummel, and perhaps its "throw" is replaced with Flying Slam. I've had this opinion since about Smash 4.

Yeah, I've thought about that since Flying Slam first came on the scene. It's a great move and all, but Koopa Claw looked (and sounded) cooler. Just adding the claw part of it to extend beyond Flying Slam's grab range so it's slightly safer to use would be nice. WHen you get down to it they are quite functionally the same move, they just added a second portion to it in Brawl. From the start they should have kept the damaging hitbox and the (superior) name.

That said, Zelda has very little to actually pull from in the first place. Anything they changed it to would likely be about as arbitrary as what she has.

In addition to the Light Arrows that Quillion pointed out, Zelda also has become associated with her rapier now. She actively used it against Link in Twilight Princess and it became basis for her primary moveset in Hyrule Warriors and her unique item in Cadence of Hyrule. How should the rapier be incorporated into Zelda's moveset? I honestly don't know if I even want it to to, but it is something now very much associated with her and how she fights. Maybe she should just take it out and look at it in a taunt like Ganondorf XD

 

[Arthur97]

Rapier is still pretty vague. Only ever used in a mainline game while possessed, and even then it was hardly used. I wouldn't expect spin offs to be used for much. Even then, imagine the riots if they turned her into a swordie.

As for light arrows, they're sometimes, but not always given by her, but only ever used by her twice in the main games. Some instances have nothing to do with Zelda at all, namely Majora's Mask and The Minish Cap. It fit as a final smash for TP Zelda as that was the one game they were exclusively a Zelda thing. WW she uses Link's, and in OoT and BotW the respective Zeldas give them but still doesn't use them. Their equivalents in the silver arrows also have nothing to do with any Zelda directly. Granted, it's not more arbitrary than what Zelda got, but just try making a moveset based around those.

 

[Jotari]

Rapier is still pretty vague. Only ever used in a mainline game while possessed, and even then it was hardly used. I wouldn't expect spin offs to be used for much. Even then, imagine the riots if they turned her into a swordie.

As for light arrows, they're sometimes, but not always given by her, but only ever used by her twice in the main games. Some instances have nothing to do with Zelda at all, namely Majora's Mask and The Minish Cap. It fit as a final smash for TP Zelda as that was the one game they were exclusively a Zelda thing. WW she uses Link's, and in OoT and BotW the respective Zeldas give them but still doesn't use them. Their equivalents in the silver arrows also have nothing to do with any Zelda directly. Granted, it's not more arbitrary than what Zelda got, but just try making a moveset based around those.

Well you absolutely could make a moveset entirely around light arrows. Like a full on archer is something definitely possible in modern Smash that we haven't seen, and to some extent maybe that's what they should have done with Pit (speaking of him, he had a hammer in his original game that's missing entirely and they really haven't used any of his near weapons at all aside from the orbitars).

I also don't think there's really any issue with using spin off stuff. Hell Pikachu's neutral special comes from the card game, of all things! Ganondorf's forward aerial, while also used in promotional work and kind of in game with his earthquake punch, came from the Ocarina of Time manga. You also have spin off materials referring back to Smash with Ganondorf using a (much faster) Warlock Punch in Hyrule Warriors. Hell, people alone are scrambling for Ganondorf to get his Hyrule Warriors design and use a trident (which he has only ever done as a human in Hyrule Warriors). If people are actively campaigning for spin off stuff to be incorporated for one Zelda character then I doubt they would object to it being used for another Zelda character, especially when Zelda actually did use the rapier in Twilight Princess (and not just possessed, we see her holding it in the Zant cutscene earlier in the game, it's not just something Ganondorf used for his own sake, it belongs to her and she, probably, knows how to use it). And just on other examples, most of Sonic's moveset comes from some Sonic fighting game, is that considered a spin off? They implemented the Dragoon from the Kirby racing spin off too. Metroid Prime is certainly a spin off series and that got no shortage of representation in Smash. An animation coming from "not technically the mainline game" has never been a barrier or issue for Smash when it comes to developing a moveset. So if Zelda were to get a rapier, lifting animations or attack ideas from Hyrule Warriors (and a lesser extent Cadence of Hyrule) would be no issue at all.

Now all that being said, I don't actually want Zelda to use her rapier. At most I'd like her to use it as a custom special for a single move like Sephiroth's Octoslash. But if she absolutely had to have a moveset inspired by what she does in actual Zelda games, the Rapier (and Light Arrows) is there. Hyrule Warriors and Cadence of Hyrule didn't come up with a random weapon for her. They did what Smash did and took what was available only with an extra few years of hindsight. If Zelda had debuted in Brawl instead of Melee she most certainly would have been using a sword and light arrows (which is an interesting idea to consider, what would fighters be like if they debuted one game later? Maybe I'll make a thread about that).

Oh and she's also used Light Arrows directly three times. In the final battles of The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and Spirit Tracks (and four if you count Hyrule Warriors, that's more times than Ganondorf has used a sword in the Zelda series). Not that it really matters as Smash can take from even a single game if it wants (hello Phantom Down Special, which didn't even work that way in Spirit Tracks).

 

[Geno Boost]

i think side smash should be changed to this

i am not sure why they gave him that kick as a side smash instead of his punch
its so iconic

 

[Mamboo07]

i think side smash should be changed to this

i am not sure why they gave him that kick as a side smash instead of his punch
its so iconic

That would be so good.

Also, I'm surprised that Bowser doesn't shoot out a fireball when using Neutral B.

And I would have his side special be this from Inside Story:

Rolls up into a spikey ball and rolls straight forward, just like Jigglypuff’s Rollout and Yoshi’s Egg Roll only with more power and less freedom. Bowser travels a little slower than those 2 attacks but deals much more damage.

I would have him get a gimmick involving his spiky shell as armour.

 

[Geno Boost]

also should also have his tail attack as his down smash

 

[Aligo]

also should also have his tail attack as his down smash

I second this, it could even have a flame at the tip of his tail like in odessy.

 

[Geno Boost]

down air should be changed to his tail attack that is used like a spring when it hits the ground its one of his iconic moves

 

[Quillion]

Oh please no, not more Link's on the roster.

Why not? Given that Ultimate recycled everything from Smash 4, TP Link at minimum would add a lot for little cost.

The only thing really missing from Link's recurring kit (other than Hook Shot >.>) is the Shield Bash. Though I'm not sure how you could implement this outside of making it a special.

Just make it his parry animation.

As for light arrows, they're sometimes, but not always given by her, but only ever used by her twice in the main games.

Three times: WW, TP, and ST. That's enough to make a pattern.

Ironically, Zelda has only sealed evil directly twice.

i think side smash should be changed to this

i am not sure why they gave him that kick as a side smash instead of his punch
its so iconic

That would be better as a replacement for his F tilt animation.

 

[Geno Boost]

here is my approach for how moveset should be changed
Perry from super princess peach should replace her current umbrella he is the perfect companion for her that would be used while she is fighting
also get rid of Toad she doesnt need him
Neutral special: she uses her umbrella and charges it then shot a projectile also it prevents other projectile from hitting on her front side

Down smash: it comes in 2 parts like side smash but 1st part of the attack spikes downward with her umbrella while the 2nd part opens the umbrella and send you sideway

Dash attack: slide with her butt

Down attack: she kick with her heels

Peach (PixelMarioXP)

This is an edited/fanmade Super Smash Bros. moveset for Peach, a main reoccuring character in the Super Mario series, as well as staring as the main protagonist in her two games, Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach: Showtime. Peach have recieved many changes to her moveset, now borrowing...

smashmovesetfanon.fandom.com

neutral air: she spins happily while tornado is forming around her

front air: does a spin with her umbrella and it can reflect a projectile if it hits the umbrella

down air: like down air but she uses her umbrella that would spin all the way down

front throw: she hits with her umbrella

back throw: like back throw

down throw: jumps and stomps on you while being angry as flame is coming out of her and makes you stuck to the ground like down throw

up throw: picks you up with her umbrella and she could move around with you like then throw you any side

Peach (PixelMarioXP)

This is an edited/fanmade Super Smash Bros. moveset for Peach, a main reoccuring character in the Super Mario series, as well as staring as the main protagonist in her two games, Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach: Showtime. Peach have recieved many changes to her moveset, now borrowing...

smashmovesetfanon.fandom.com

as for what i will do with probably keep her the same mostly as some people would prefer to use old moveset
but get rid of her umbrella she doesnt need it
replace her Up special with something similar to Up Special and it comes in 2 parts but 1st part of the attack she jumps and punches upward while the 2nd part she punches spikes downward

normally people say declone but i lean more toward reimagining completely
i dont like current moveset but if this moveset change happened to her i would probably make her one of my mains

 

[Quillion]

here is my approach for how moveset should be changed
Perry from super princess peach should replace her current umbrella he is the perfect companion for her that would be used while she is fighting
also get rid of Toad she doesnt need him
Neutral special: she uses her umbrella and charges it then shot a projectile also it prevents other projectile from hitting on her front side

Down smash: it comes in 2 parts like side smash but 1st part of the attack spikes downward with her umbrella while the 2nd part opens the umbrella and send you sideway

Dash attack: slide with her butt

Down attack: she kick with her heels

Peach (PixelMarioXP)

This is an edited/fanmade Super Smash Bros. moveset for Peach, a main reoccuring character in the Super Mario series, as well as staring as the main protagonist in her two games, Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach: Showtime. Peach have recieved many changes to her moveset, now borrowing...

smashmovesetfanon.fandom.com

neutral air: she spins happily while tornado is forming around her

front air: does a spin with her umbrella and it can reflect a projectile if it hits the umbrella

down air: like down air but she uses her umbrella that would spin all the way down

front throw: she hits with her umbrella

back throw: like back throw

down throw: jumps and stomps on you while being angry as flame is coming out of her and makes you stuck to the ground like down throw

up throw: picks you up with her umbrella and she could move around with you like then throw you any side

Peach (PixelMarioXP)

This is an edited/fanmade Super Smash Bros. moveset for Peach, a main reoccuring character in the Super Mario series, as well as staring as the main protagonist in her two games, Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach: Showtime. Peach have recieved many changes to her moveset, now borrowing...

smashmovesetfanon.fandom.com

as for what i will do with probably keep her the same mostly as some people would prefer to use old moveset
but get rid of her umbrella she doesnt need it
replace her Up special with something similar to Up Special and it comes in 2 parts but 1st part of the attack she jumps and punches upward while the 2nd part she punches side way

normally people say declone but i lean more toward reimagining completely
i dont like current moveset but if this moveset change happened to her i would probably make her one of my mains

Thank you for at least giving her a Monado-like Vibe gimmick, but I find Peach better as a bare-handed slap fighter with only her Up B parasol. And we'll need to wait for a SPP sequel before giving her Perry moves.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Oh please no, not more Link's on the roster.

While the ship has unfortunately sailed for the character, I think Wolf Link and Midna would have been a great addition. I'd love another Link if it was them.

And just on other examples, most of Sonic's moveset comes from some Sonic fighting game, is that considered a spin off?

It is indeed a spinoff.

I would have him get a gimmick involving his spiky shell as armour.

He kinda has that gimmick already in Tough Guy. His up smash probably has the most armor of any of his moves, too, which uses his shell.

also should also have his tail attack as his down smash

I second this, though his old down smash was closer to this. It didn't use the tail but it was a spinny shell attack. Come to think of it, I think I'd prefer for this to be his down tilt. It looks like it could be the kind of down tilt that sets up into combos at low %, which would have a lot more utility than his current down tilt.

 

[Geno Boost]

Thank you for at least giving her a Monado-like Vibe gimmick, but I find Peach better as a bare-handed slap fighter with only her Up B parasol. And we'll need to wait for a SPP sequel before giving her Perry moves.

the issue is when you have both in the roster and both play the same bare handed slap fighter then i find it necessary to declone one of them and i have chosen due to the fact she has more resources in mario games to work with for a new moveset
so eventually that would result on having umbrella fighter with some slaps and brawler and with slaps fighter

 

[Jotari]

down air should be changed to his tail attack that is used like a spring when it hits the ground its one of his iconic moves

I was thinking you could make it so Skewer works like the pogo tail when using it in the air. I'm sure someone has hit an airbourne skewer once at some point and it felt amazing, but all in all it's attack that's impractical (but great) on the ground and even more impractical in the air.

Why not? Given that Ultimate recycled everything from Smash 4, TP Link at minimum would add a lot for little cost.

Because having three Links on the roster is silly enough as it is, I don't want a fourth. You might as well add in Smash 64 Link with his super controlable Boomerang or Zelda II Link with all his various spells at that rate. Why not a fighting game composed entirely of Link? Has to end somewhere. I would be perfectly happy with just two Links. His bombs and boomerang can be differentiated through custom specials, there's no need to add an entirely different character (meaning another classic route and another character to unlock) for the sake of a single attack.

here is my approach for how moveset should be changed
Perry from super princess peach should replace her current umbrella he is the perfect companion for her that would be used while she is fighting
also get rid of Toad she doesnt need him
Neutral special: she uses her umbrella and charges it then shot a projectile also it prevents other projectile from hitting on her front side

Down smash: it comes in 2 parts like side smash but 1st part of the attack spikes downward with her umbrella while the 2nd part opens the umbrella and send you sideway

Dash attack: slide with her butt

Down attack: she kick with her heels

Peach (PixelMarioXP)

This is an edited/fanmade Super Smash Bros. moveset for Peach, a main reoccuring character in the Super Mario series, as well as staring as the main protagonist in her two games, Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach: Showtime. Peach have recieved many changes to her moveset, now borrowing...

smashmovesetfanon.fandom.com

neutral air: she spins happily while tornado is forming around her

front air: does a spin with her umbrella and it can reflect a projectile if it hits the umbrella

down air: like down air but she uses her umbrella that would spin all the way down

front throw: she hits with her umbrella

back throw: like back throw

down throw: jumps and stomps on you while being angry as flame is coming out of her and makes you stuck to the ground like down throw

up throw: picks you up with her umbrella and she could move around with you like then throw you any side

Peach (PixelMarioXP)

This is an edited/fanmade Super Smash Bros. moveset for Peach, a main reoccuring character in the Super Mario series, as well as staring as the main protagonist in her two games, Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach: Showtime. Peach have recieved many changes to her moveset, now borrowing...

smashmovesetfanon.fandom.com

as for what i will do with probably keep her the same mostly as some people would prefer to use old moveset
but get rid of her umbrella she doesnt need it
replace her Up special with something similar to Up Special and it comes in 2 parts but 1st part of the attack she jumps and punches upward while the 2nd part she punches spikes downward

normally people say declone but i lean more toward reimagining completely
i dont like current moveset but if this moveset change happened to her i would probably make her one of my mains

Those actually all seem like decent ideas. And because Daisy exists, completely reimagining Peach is one of the more realistic old school veterans to receive such a treatment. Super Princess Peach is a pretty old game that stands alone as a series of 1 title, so I don't think there's much need to implement attacks from that, but you chose some genuinely decent animations from it that would work well in Smash (I think, at the very least, it was a shame Brawl didn't make her parasol perry, why have a random parasol when you can have one that had a meaningful appearance?). The flow and way the attacks move also seem like they'd fit well into Peach's current attack style.

My only criticisms would be the back throw, as it would look too much like she's just copying Mario and Luigi's back throw, and the cargo throw as I think that would look much more ridiculous for Peach to do than Donkey Kong. Imagine her carrying Ridley around like that! Plus in general, it's very much DK's thing and would just feel out of place on Peach.

 

[Quillion]

Because having three Links on the roster is silly enough as it is, I don't want a fourth.

I mean yeah, it is, but since they didn't consolidate Young Link and Toon Link into a single child Link, might as well follow that pattern for the adult Links. Four Links is a good endpoint considering how alienating BotW Link is to several players like me. Plus, they could have OoT costumes for TP Link or vice versa, something that can't be easily done with BotW Link. I'd personally throw in Link's "classic" design based on SSBU Zelda being the younger ALttP Zelda while still being as tall as TP Zelda.

Granted, this is assuming that Smash remains as stuck in its ways as it is.

 

[Arthur97]

Well you absolutely could make a moveset entirely around light arrows. Like a full on archer is something definitely possible in modern Smash that we haven't seen, and to some extent maybe that's what they should have done with Pit (speaking of him, he had a hammer in his original game that's missing entirely and they really haven't used any of his near weapons at all aside from the orbitars).

I also don't think there's really any issue with using spin off stuff. Hell Pikachu's neutral special comes from the card game, of all things! Ganondorf's forward aerial, while also used in promotional work and kind of in game with his earthquake punch, came from the Ocarina of Time manga. You also have spin off materials referring back to Smash with Ganondorf using a (much faster) Warlock Punch in Hyrule Warriors. Hell, people alone are scrambling for Ganondorf to get his Hyrule Warriors design and use a trident (which he has only ever done as a human in Hyrule Warriors). If people are actively campaigning for spin off stuff to be incorporated for one Zelda character then I doubt they would object to it being used for another Zelda character, especially when Zelda actually did use the rapier in Twilight Princess (and not just possessed, we see her holding it in the Zant cutscene earlier in the game, it's not just something Ganondorf used for his own sake, it belongs to her and she, probably, knows how to use it). And just on other examples, most of Sonic's moveset comes from some Sonic fighting game, is that considered a spin off? They implemented the Dragoon from the Kirby racing spin off too. Metroid Prime is certainly a spin off series and that got no shortage of representation in Smash. An animation coming from "not technically the mainline game" has never been a barrier or issue for Smash when it comes to developing a moveset. So if Zelda were to get a rapier, lifting animations or attack ideas from Hyrule Warriors (and a lesser extent Cadence of Hyrule) would be no issue at all.

Now all that being said, I don't actually want Zelda to use her rapier. At most I'd like her to use it as a custom special for a single move like Sephiroth's Octoslash. But if she absolutely had to have a moveset inspired by what she does in actual Zelda games, the Rapier (and Light Arrows) is there. Hyrule Warriors and Cadence of Hyrule didn't come up with a random weapon for her. They did what Smash did and took what was available only with an extra few years of hindsight. If Zelda had debuted in Brawl instead of Melee she most certainly would have been using a sword and light arrows (which is an interesting idea to consider, what would fighters be like if they debuted one game later? Maybe I'll make a thread about that).

Oh and she's also used Light Arrows directly three times. In the final battles of The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and Spirit Tracks (and four if you count Hyrule Warriors, that's more times than Ganondorf has used a sword in the Zelda series). Not that it really matters as Smash can take from even a single game if it wants (hello Phantom Down Special, which didn't even work that way in Spirit Tracks).

It showed her holding and then dropping the rapier, not using it. Zelda herself never used it though you could assume she knows how to use it, we never saw how she would have done so herself in that game. And while they could take from spin offs, they seem reluctant to reference Hyrule Warriors at all. I also am not sure I'd say most of Sonic's moveset came from Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle actually seems to get little to nothing. You make a point its not impossible, but Nintendo doesn't seem keen to reference HW as stated and Cadence was a weird indie crossover, doubtful to be used for Smash.

That said, to the point of this thread, a rapier is not really iconic to any of the mainline Zeldas. If the light arrows are considered iconic to the Zeldas as a whole, then that seems like more perception over reality. Only two really can claim the light arrows as their own. More often than not, they're used exclusively by Link, sometimes given by her, sometimes not, but unless it's TP Zelda again, they really don't need to be there. A Toon Zelda might could use them, but WW Zelda just borrowed them, and she has Tetra to use.

Though if we want final smashes, Young Link could have gotten Fierce Deity Mask. Could have even been functionally very similar. Maybe adjust the sword and shield to look more like the MM versions as well. A visual change, but could be neat.

 

[Jotari]

I mean yeah, it is, but since they didn't consolidate Young Link and Toon Link into a single child Link, might as well follow that pattern for the adult Links. Four Links is a good endpoint considering how alienating BotW Link is to several players like me. Plus, they could have OoT costumes for TP Link or vice versa, something that can't be easily done with BotW Link. I'd personally throw in Link's "classic" design based on SSBU Zelda being the younger ALttP Zelda while still being as tall as TP Zelda.

Granted, this is assuming that Smash remains as stuck in its ways as it is.

But I think Young Link and Toon Link should be consolidated into one character. Four Link's is, frankly, ridiculous. Smash has to take care not to alienate players when changing movesets, but just holding on to every old moveset is a crazy idea. I like Melee Bowser more than modern Bowser, does that mean Melee Bowser should be its own seperate character? Should we have SSB4 Charizard in addition to Ultimate Charizard so I can use Rock Smash? Should we have Twilight Princess Ganondorf as a seperate character to use his old smash attacks. Should we have Melee Ganondorf so as not to alienate people who liked him mimicing Captain Falocn. Link is really not a different character between SSB4 and Ultimate, it's just two specials (one of which is just a return to his old preBrawl special). I'd rather you be able to make Twilight Princess Link in game through customising specials. Making an echo with every moveset change is isn't going to maintain players unalienated, it's just going to lead to a massively bloated roster with near identical characters (and that is something people definitely will complain about). Ultimate already has like 75 characters, tossing in another 20 or 30 for old, minor moveset changes just isn't going to work. And of all the characters to do this for, Link is the most egregious as he's already in the game three times over.


On the topic of Link, much like his side smash being based off of nothing and how I think it could be Mortal Draw from Twilight Princess, I'm not thinking that his Up Smash could be retooled into the vertical Spin Attack from Skyward Sword. Again, not a very classic attack, appearing in only one game, but one that could functionally work well for an Up Smash. His current Up Smash, Imo, looks kind of awkward. Though unlike my suggestion for Mortal Draw, this one would actually change the attack somewhat, moving it from three hits to a singular hit with more coverage on the sides, but I think that's a change that could work for Link.

 

[Arthur97]

Echoes take up little effort. I'd be down for OoT and TP Links showing up sharing a slot. Also, while it may be minor to no difference, the new Link is right handed whereas most have been left handed. Was especially odd for BotW as it didn't have motion controls for the sword so not sure why they did that. As someone who didn't like BotW all that much, I'd be for it. I don't like the changes for him generally and even outside of Smash I'm not really a fan of not donning green tunic and hat for his standard attire. Also don't care for his final smash.

 

[Jotari]

It showed her holding and then dropping the rapier, not using it. Zelda herself never used it though you could assume she knows how to use it, we never saw how she would have done so herself in that game. And while they could take from spin offs, they seem reluctant to reference Hyrule Warriors at all. I also am not sure I'd say most of Sonic's moveset came from Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle actually seems to get little to nothing. You make a point its not impossible, but Nintendo doesn't seem keen to reference HW as stated and Cadence was a weird indie crossover, doubtful to be used for Smash.

But she does use it. She uses it in the boss battle against her. And before you say that was Ganondorf and not Zelda, I say, so what? It's not like that matters to Smash. I don't think we specifically have an example of a character using a move in Smash that they used while possessed by another character (because it's a rather niche situation), we've had plenty of borrowed attacks in the past. Like I said, if Zelda didn't get into Melee but did get into Brawl, she absolutely would have come with her rapier (and light arrows). I reiterate, Hyrule Warriors didn't pull the rapier out of their ass when they gave it to Zelda. They gave it to Zelda for a reason, and Smash would have done the same thing if they hadn't already created a moveset for her.

That said, to the point of this thread, a rapier is not really iconic to any of the mainline Zeldas. If the light arrows are considered iconic to the Zeldas as a whole, then that seems like more perception over reality. Only two really can claim the light arrows as their own. More often than not, they're used exclusively by Link, sometimes given by her, sometimes not, but unless it's TP Zelda again, they really don't need to be there. A Toon Zelda might could use them, but WW Zelda just borrowed them, and she has Tetra to use.

Again, I'm not saying I actually want or care about Zelda using the rapier. I agree, when you take the almost forty year history of the character, it's not massively iconic for her, but that's because she's never carved out a niche for herself when it comes to iconic combat. The rapier and light arrows are the closest thing she has had to consistent combat to draw from. I'm fine with Zelda remaining as she is, I would like to see her get Light Arrows in some way as I think those actually are quite iconic to her (and I think you know your purposefully downplaying how associated she is with them), but much like how I didn't particularly want Ganondorf to have a sword (though I'm not dissapointed now that he has as they made it work without altering him too much), I'm fine with Zelda not using her own sword in Smash. I started this whole discussion by saying if she needs to have a canon moveset then the rapier is there. Zelda's moveset is largely fine. Would I like to see more canon inspiration placed within it, yes, I feel that for pretty much all characters, but only if it functionally works for said character. That's why I made this thread.

Okay, let's talk about Light Arrows

So @Quillion has certainly mentioned this enough in various threads talking about changing characters, but there doesn't seem to have been any proper, focused discussion on it. SImply put, Zelda, despite being a character that has been around since the 80s, really doesn't have a huge amount of...

smashboards.com

 

[Jotari]

RE Shield Bash
Just make it his parry animation.

Do characters even have unique parry animations? Its kind of a small window of time for something like that. Though I suppose Link could some kind of lengthened window of opportunity to power so his shield has more relevance.

 

[Arthur97]

Do characters even have unique parry animations? Its kind of a small window of time for something like that. Though I suppose Link could some kind of lengthened window of opportunity to power so his shield has more relevance.

Perfect shielding does have special poses. A fun one is Banjo striking the one up pose upon a perfect shield. Steve/Alex/Zombie/Enderman all pull out a shield, as well. Those are probably the most notable ones, but, yes, there are very much unique poses. Echoes do probably share them as well as ones built off other fighters so Young Link probably shares with one of the other Links if not both. As stated above, multiple characters in the same fighter slot also share, though there may be exceptions as there isn't exactly a gallery of it readily available. Most are probably a bit more subdued, Banjo and the shield probably being the most obvious.

 

[Quillion]

But I think Young Link and Toon Link should be consolidated into one character. Four Link's is, frankly, ridiculous. Smash has to take care not to alienate players when changing movesets, but just holding on to every old moveset is a crazy idea. I like Melee Bowser more than modern Bowser, does that mean Melee Bowser should be its own seperate character? Should we have SSB4 Charizard in addition to Ultimate Charizard so I can use Rock Smash? Should we have Twilight Princess Ganondorf as a seperate character to use his old smash attacks. Should we have Melee Ganondorf so as not to alienate people who liked him mimicing Captain Falocn. Link is really not a different character between SSB4 and Ultimate, it's just two specials (one of which is just a return to his old preBrawl special). I'd rather you be able to make Twilight Princess Link in game through customising specials. Making an echo with every moveset change is isn't going to maintain players unalienated, it's just going to lead to a massively bloated roster with near identical characters (and that is something people definitely will complain about). Ultimate already has like 75 characters, tossing in another 20 or 30 for old, minor moveset changes just isn't going to work. And of all the characters to do this for, Link is the most egregious as he's already in the game three times over.

Way too much slippery slope up in this post.

The Zelda series is just trying to let Link do new things that don't gel well with the old design. I'd be fine with it JUST for Link.

Also, I do think we should have options to give SOME characters different normalsets based on different weapons, but that's just me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In general am for the notion of having different sort of movesets for characters, and Link having Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess alts or Echoes would fit under this. But also, say, a Samus moveset based around her Ice Beam abilities or something, Mario with Cappy or an entire Fire Flower based moveset because why not? This could be done for only the original 8 veterans maybe.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, not all of the perfect attendance crew have much reason to have a legacy version. Also, why shun the hidden four? Even though Luigi might be the only one you'd really want to do that for. Link is a bit of a special case with a more classic version of the moveset to fall back on, but perhaps more importantly, other Links to use. Same for Zelda. Technically speaking, while all the fighters are in Ultimate, all the characters aren't due to the missing Links and Zeldas. Ganondorf is the same person in TP as OoT so that doesn't count, but I would not say no to a TP alt either.

 

[Jotari]

Perfect shielding does have special poses. A fun one is Banjo striking the one up pose upon a perfect shield. Steve/Alex/Zombie/Enderman all pull out a shield, as well. Those are probably the most notable ones, but, yes, there are very much unique poses. Echoes do probably share them as well as ones built off other fighters so Young Link probably shares with one of the other Links if not both. As stated above, multiple characters in the same fighter slot also share, though there may be exceptions as there isn't exactly a gallery of it readily available. Most are probably a bit more subdued, Banjo and the shield probably being the most obvious.

That sounds perfect for Link's Shield Bash then. If it doesn't look like that already.

Way too much slippery slope up in this post.

The Zelda series is just trying to let Link do new things that don't gel well with the old design. I'd be fine with it JUST for Link.

Also, I do think we should have options to give SOME characters different normalsets based on different weapons, but that's just me.

Well they accomplish that now mainly by the existence of items. But what exactly do you mean different normalsets based on different weapons? Like an Echo, Ragnell Ike and Urvan Ike, who has the same specials but completely different normals? A special move where Ike whips out Urvan and his normal moveset is now changed (essentially making it a Sheik/Zelda set up only with less visual makeover)? Or customisation like we had with custom specials, only you can customize certain normal moves too?

 

[Quillion]

Well they accomplish that now mainly by the existence of items.

Yeah, just jab, f-tilt, and f-smash with no guarantee that an item is relevant or iconic to the character in question. Poor solution.

But what exactly do you mean different normalsets based on different weapons? Like an Echo, Ragnell Ike and Urvan Ike, who has the same specials but completely different normals? A special move where Ike whips out Urvan and his normal moveset is now changed (essentially making it a Sheik/Zelda set up only with less visual makeover)? Or customisation like we had with custom specials, only you can customize certain normal moves too?

The specials stay the same (or alongside your custom specials idea), but you select whether Mario can be barehanded or use a hammer or Link uses the Master Sword or a Two-Hander on the CSS. And that should only apply to characters with enough history to have multiple weapons, not everyone.

 

[Perkilator]

Delzethin made a Remake It video for DK

 

[Jotari]

Yeah, just jab, f-tilt, and f-smash with no guarantee that an item is relevant or iconic to the character in question. Poor solution.




The specials stay the same (or alongside your custom specials idea), but you select whether Mario can be barehanded or use a hammer or Link uses the Master Sword or a Two-Hander on the CSS. And that should only apply to characters with enough history to have multiple weapons, not everyone.

So your suggesting customization like custom specials?

 

[StrangeKitten]

I like Melee Bowser more than modern Bowser, does that mean Melee Bowser should be its own seperate character?

I just remembered, a neat idea I saw talked about here and there in early Ultimate speculation (when more echo fighters was a reasonable expectation) was to take Melee Bowser's moveset (though of course, give it updates in hitboxes and animations to better gel with Ultimate) and give it to Dry Bowser. They did a similar thing with Young Link having Link's old moves (albeit faster but weaker) and Pichu having Pikachu's old moves. You'll probably disagree, but like I said, I love Melee Bowser's moveset, so I would love if they had done that, or if they do it for a future game. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that I'm aware of how bad Bowser was in Melee, but I think the moveset could work well enough if they had updated it well. Plus, Dry Bowser would retain Bowser's fast run speed (definitely exclude Bowser's old run from this lol) and frame 3 jumpsquat, where slow run speed and frame 8 jumpsquat held Melee Bowser back more than his moveset did anyway.

 

[Quillion]

So your suggesting customization like custom specials?

Yes, but I think it will be an even bigger boon to older fighters than custom specials.

I just remembered, a neat idea I saw talked about here and there in early Ultimate speculation (when more echo fighters was a reasonable expectation) was to take Melee Bowser's moveset (though of course, give it updates in hitboxes and animations to better gel with Ultimate) and give it to Dry Bowser. They did a similar thing with Young Link having Link's old moves (albeit faster but weaker) and Pichu having Pikachu's old moves. You'll probably disagree, but like I said, I love Melee Bowser's moveset, so I would love if they had done that, or if they do it for a future game. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that I'm aware of how bad Bowser was in Melee, but I think the moveset could work well enough if they had updated it well. Plus, Dry Bowser would retain Bowser's fast run speed (definitely exclude Bowser's old run from this lol) and frame 3 jumpsquat, where slow run speed and frame 8 jumpsquat held Melee Bowser back more than his moveset did anyway.

Maybe it can be given to Fury Bowser since it fits him more. Of course, we'll need to see more of Fury Bowser.

Or just have "wrestling" and "fury" be "weapons" for Bowser too.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Maybe it can be given to Fury Bowser since it fits him more. Of course, we'll need to see more of Fury Bowser.

Or just have "wrestling" and "fury" be "weapons" for Bowser too.

Or even the best of both worlds: Fury Bowser as a Bowser echo, but he has a Dry Bowser alt!

 

[Jotari]

I just remembered, a neat idea I saw talked about here and there in early Ultimate speculation (when more echo fighters was a reasonable expectation) was to take Melee Bowser's moveset (though of course, give it updates in hitboxes and animations to better gel with Ultimate) and give it to Dry Bowser. They did a similar thing with Young Link having Link's old moves (albeit faster but weaker) and Pichu having Pikachu's old moves. You'll probably disagree, but like I said, I love Melee Bowser's moveset, so I would love if they had done that, or if they do it for a future game. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that I'm aware of how bad Bowser was in Melee, but I think the moveset could work well enough if they had updated it well. Plus, Dry Bowser would retain Bowser's fast run speed (definitely exclude Bowser's old run from this lol) and frame 3 jumpsquat, where slow run speed and frame 8 jumpsquat held Melee Bowser back more than his moveset did anyway.

Visually I liked Bowsers old run animation though. I think he could kepe the same rail grinding style while being closer in speed to modern Bowser.

In general though, yeah, I wouldn't mind that idea. I highly doubt it will ever happen, but Dry Bowser as a Bowser Echo specifically using his Melee animations would be a cool character for Smash. My overall point with my rant there was that making an Echo for every character that has gone through any changes is a needlessly herculean and unnecessary task unless you're just going to be inconsistent with your selections. Bowser is the character who this would make the most sense for, as he's the veteran who has undergone the biggest change in moveset (at least visually, Olimar might have had the biggest change mechanically with how his Pikmin work, but that's a whole other story that took much less effort to implement), meanwhile Link is one of the least needed as he has barely changed at all and is already in the game three times over.

Yes, but I think it will be an even bigger boon to older fighters than custom specials.

Maybe it can be given to Fury Bowser since it fits him more. Of course, we'll need to see more of Fury Bowser.

Or just have "wrestling" and "fury" be "weapons" for Bowser too.

It would, but it would take a lot more work too. They're not as showy as specials, but normal movesets matter a lot when it comes to game design and balancing. One also needs to address why updates are necessary. If it's just to update to more canon versions, well then it doesn't have to be an entire moveset, it could be achieved in one or two moves (like Ganondorf's sword). If it's to update them to make them better because the old movesets aren't good or exciting any more, well then you have an issue of two movesets with one designed to be superior to the other.

 

[Quillion]

My overall point with my rant there was that making an Echo for every character that has gone through any changes is a needlessly herculean and unnecessary task unless you're just going to be inconsistent with your selections.

Then let them be inconsistent with it. Again, BotW Link's design doesn't gel with the old Link in key ways from a canonical standpoint. TP Link as a BotW Link echo would almost be as different as Ken from Ryu.

It would, but it would take a lot more work too. They're not as showy as specials, but normal movesets matter a lot when it comes to game design and balancing.

Hence why only SOME/A FEW of the characters should get that luxury. You seem to be stuck in the mindset that everyone should get equal custom options when it's best done for characters with enough history to make it work.

If it's just to update to more canon versions, well then it doesn't have to be an entire moveset, it could be achieved in one or two moves (like Ganondorf's sword).

Agreed, but I see "hammerspace weapon" normals as a worthy enough sacrifice.

If it's to update them to make them better because the old movesets aren't good or exciting any more, well then you have an issue of two movesets with one designed to be superior to the other.

I really don't think one normalset would be deliberately designed to be better than another. Let the players decide which is better.

Smash favoring faster, string-heavy movesets is a systemic coincidence, not a deliberate decision.