What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

[fogbadge]

i think at some point some one has conflated reflect and deflect

 

[Jotari]

No. He has the ability to reflect only one projectile and ignores all the others. Pretending he can reflect anything else is silly. The fact that a mere empty bottle can reflect it too is proof that it's not inherent to Ganondorf. You want to translate the spirit of the battle in Smash ? Give Dead Man Volley a "can be reflected" property similar to Dedede's side-b.

I'm not pretending he can reflect anything else in games. I'm saying a key part of the battle is that he is reflecting the attack. The fact that he ignores other projectiles is irrelevant as no one is seriously going to ever suggest making him staight immune to projectiles in Smash like he is in his own game.

 

[Quillion]

I guess the crux of this whole argument is whether Ganondorf's projectile is called Dead Man's Volley because you can reflect the projectile or because it's a magic ball in the first place. Earlier in the thread Verde Coeden Scalesworth insisted that if it can't be reflected, it would have to be called "Lightning Ball."

But honestly, arguing these semantics is just dumb. I just think Ganondorf doesn't need a projectile period. I don't care if the projectile can be hit back with any attack or not; he doesn't need it.

Besides, as I said in the OP, Sephiroth had to be made a lightweight due to his combination of a long-reaching sword and projectiles. Ganondorf would have to go through the same deal if he had his melee weapons and projectiles at the same time.

 

[Jotari]

I guess the crux of this whole argument is whether Ganondorf's projectile is called Dead Man's Volley because you can reflect the projectile or because it's a magic ball in the first place. Earlier in the thread Verde Coeden Scalesworth insisted that if it can't be reflected, it would have to be called "Lightning Ball."

But honestly, arguing these semantics is just dumb. I just think Ganondorf doesn't need a projectile period. I don't care if the projectile can be hit back with any attack or not; he doesn't need it.

Besides, as I said in the OP, Sephiroth had to be made a lightweight due to his combination of a long-reaching sword and projectiles. Ganondorf would have to go through the same deal if he had his melee weapons and projectiles at the same time.

I agree that he doesn't need a projectile, but he could do with a reflector, which would serve to reference Dead Man's Volley too, even if it might not be the full blown reference some people might want (it could even be called Dead Man's Volley, since the word volley refers to the notion of hitting something back).

 

[Lenidem]

i think at some point some one has conflated reflect and deflect

I admit I don't know the difference.

For the rest, I've said what I had to. This discussion is a dead end.

 

[Jotari]

I admit I don't know the difference.

For the rest, I've said what I had to. This discussion is a dead end.

Deflect is to knock away, reflect is to send back.

 

[Lenidem]

Deflect is to knock away, reflect is to send back.

So Fox' shield pr Mario's cape would be reflectors, while the classic down-b counter is usually a deflector ?

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

This might sound bizarre or nitpicky, but I find it very weird that Sheik doesn't have the Goddess Harp anywhere in her moveset. As a move, the idea of it working like it does in Hyrule Warriors in order to provide buffs could be cool, but I think even as a taunt it would be clever to have it... and yet it's not there.

 

[Quillion]

This might sound bizarre or nitpicky, but I find it very weird that Sheik doesn't have the Goddess Harp anywhere in her moveset. As a move, the idea of it working like it does in Hyrule Warriors in order to provide buffs could be cool, but I think even as a taunt it would be clever to have it... and yet it's not there.

You're not wrong at all. Playing the harp is practically the only thing she did in-game in OoT, yet she doesn't have it anywhere in her actions.

I also find it funny that her HW moveset is based almost entirely around the harp, achieving a level of faith to canon that Smash probably can't.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're not wrong at all. Playing the harp is practically the only thing she did in-game in OoT, yet she doesn't have it anywhere in her actions.

I also find it funny that her HW moveset is based almost entirely around the harp, achieving a level of faith to canon that Smash probably can't.

And teleporting with the Deku Nuts. But yeah, those are her only two actual moves. There's no reason it couldn't have been at least a freaking Taunt. Or maybe an Idle. A move would be best, though(like her Down B or something?)

 

[Thanos6]

I realize this will probably never ever happen, but I think it'd be interesting to have a "fork" of Smash.

One game would be like Smash is now, inspired by canon but not beholden to it, where trying to keep characters relatively balanced is important.

And the other game would strive to represent each character as closely to their actual canon as possible, and if that means some characters absolutely dominate over others, shrug.

 

[Quillion]

I realize this will probably never ever happen, but I think it'd be interesting to have a "fork" of Smash.

One game would be like Smash is now, inspired by canon but not beholden to it, where trying to keep characters relatively balanced is important.

And the other game would strive to represent each character as closely to their actual canon as possible, and if that means some characters absolutely dominate over others, shrug.

I'm personally in favor of Capcom making Nintendo vs Capcom in the traditional fighter style, so that the game would feature its own interpretations of the characters not beholden to Smash.

 

[Lenidem]

And teleporting with the Deku Nuts. But yeah, those are her only two actual moves. There's no reason it couldn't have been at least a freaking Taunt. Or maybe an Idle. A move would be best, though(like her Down B or something?)

Or even just the entry animation, with the small globes of light like when Link plays a teleportation song in OoT - you know, the songs Sheik taught him... The color could also change depending on the nature of the stage: blue when it's an island, red when it's lava based, and so on.

 

[Jotari]

This might sound bizarre or nitpicky, but I find it very weird that Sheik doesn't have the Goddess Harp anywhere in her moveset. As a move, the idea of it working like it does in Hyrule Warriors in order to provide buffs could be cool, but I think even as a taunt it would be clever to have it... and yet it's not there.

I'm in full agreement. What can we say about Sheik based on the character's actual appearance in Ocarina of Time, plays the harp and has a habbit of vanishing. They got the vanishing down with the up special, and hell they even had the harp in the Melee opening, but actually featuring it somewhere in the moveset has somehow just not happened in the past twenty years, despite Sheik having gained two different special moves in that time. Bloody bizzare. It's not like one can't come up with a creative use of it based on all the Ocarina Songs, or even like throwing it on a taunt would have been particularly difficult. It's basically the defining feature of Sheik, but Sheik overall has been more defined by smash than Ocarina of Time it seems.
(I see others beat me to this post and said basically the exact same things as me earlier).

 

[Quillion]

I've been debating on whether to post this, but I might as well do it now.

Meta Knight has several signature attacks that he uses in most, if not all, of his boss fights. His Mach Tornado is accounted for, but there are two signature attacks that he uses that were left out:

• Crescent Shot: a typical crescent-shaped sword beam (Super Star, Squeak Squad, Star Allies)
• Tornado (not to be confused with Mach Tornado): Meta Knight stabs the ground and summons a giant tornado (Super Star, Squeak Squad, Fighters 2)

Clearly, they made some major sacrifices to portray Meta Knight as a speedy, close-range swordfighter in Smash. Then again, the Smash 4-and-on characters have very outlandish moves that defy their archetype or the previous limitations of Smash (such as K. Rool's projectiles or Palutena's gigantic light pillar up-Smash).

 

[Jotari]

I've been debating on whether to post this, but I might as well do it now.

Meta Knight has several signature attacks that he uses in most, if not all, of his boss fights. His Mach Tornado is accounted for, but there are two signature attacks that he uses that were left out:

• Crescent Shot: a typical crescent-shaped sword beam (Super Star, Squeak Squad, Star Allies)
• Tornado (not to be confused with Mach Tornado): Meta Knight stabs the ground and summons a giant tornado (Super Star, Squeak Squad, Fighters 2)

Clearly, they made some major sacrifices to portray Meta Knight as a speedy, close-range swordfighter in Smash. Then again, the Smash 4-and-on characters have very outlandish moves that defy their archetype or the previous limitations of Smash (such as K. Rool's projectiles or Palutena's gigantic light pillar up-Smash).

One noteworthy attack I've seen Meta Knight use that seems like it'd fit very well into Smash is a stall and drop sword strike he does. It looks like it was intentionally made to be a Down Aerial in Smash, even though it predates Smash itself. However, while it visually and mechanically looks like it'd fit into Smash well, I'm not sure it'd be the best idea for it to actually be Meta Knight's down aerial. I don't play Meta Knight, basically at all, so I could be wrong, but it seems like his quick downward strike for his aerial is pretty useful for semi spiking opponents and a stall and drop just wouldn't have enough flow (for want of a better word) for his moveset.

 

[Quillion]

One noteworthy attack I've seen Meta Knight use that seems like it'd fit very well into Smash is a stall and drop sword strike he does. It looks like it was intentionally made to be a Down Aerial in Smash, even though it predates Smash itself. However, while it visually and mechanically looks like it'd fit into Smash well, I'm not sure it'd be the best idea for it to actually be Meta Knight's down aerial. I don't play Meta Knight, basically at all, so I could be wrong, but it seems like his quick downward strike for his aerial is pretty useful for semi spiking opponents and a stall and drop just wouldn't have enough flow (for want of a better word) for his moveset.

I wouldn't say that move really "belongs" to Meta Knight though since a plunging downward attack with the weapon pointed down is such a generic move shared with many Kirby abilities.

 

[Jotari]

I wouldn't say that move really "belongs" to Meta Knight though since a plunging downward attack with the weapon pointed down is such a generic move shared with many Kirby abilities.

I think he does it first though, as early as Nightmare in Dreamland.

 

[Neosonic97]

It may not be the exact S3&K animation, but doesn't the move resemble it close enough? There's a little aura surrounding Sonic as he spins.

Not really, no. Said blue aura also appears (with different colours depending on charge level) during his Spin Dash and Spin Charge. It's closer to the blue aura that surrounds Sonic when he jumps in Sonic Adventure 2 or Sonic Heroes.

The Insta Shield goes around Sonic in a specific pattern, going from front to back, clockwise, and is often white/grey rather than blue (The only iteration of the Insta-shield that's had a blue aura is the rendition from the Sonic Advance games).

 

[Quillion]

Not really, no. Said blue aura also appears (with different colours depending on charge level) during his Spin Dash and Spin Charge. It's closer to the blue aura that surrounds Sonic when he jumps in Sonic Adventure 2 or Sonic Heroes.

The Insta Shield goes around Sonic in a specific pattern, going from front to back, clockwise, and is often white/grey rather than blue (The only iteration of the Insta-shield that's had a blue aura is the rendition from the Sonic Advance games).

This sounds like unsatisfiable nitpicking IMO. It's more faithful to the move than Zelda's Din's Fire, yet people call Zelda well-represented.

 

[Jotari]

This sounds like unsatisfiable nitpicking IMO. It's more faithful to the move than Zelda's Din's Fire, yet people call Zelda well-represented.

I've just looked up the Insta Shield and Sonic Frame Data and I have to agree. It looks like it is a clear adaption of Insa Shield. Could they make it more clear? Well yes, and it would be nice if they did, but it is is still there. A lot of attacks have very slight visual differences to their own game for one reason or another. What's sort of funny though is that I didn't know what you guys were talking about when you were saying Insta Shield, until just now. My mind went to those flame and bubble shields Sonic can get as a power up. I was thinking "What? Sonic makes one of those shields as his neutral air? How did I miss that? I don't remember him doing anything like that at all." However now that I mention them, they are something that is missing from Sonic's moveset that I'd rate as pretty recognizable for him. I'm not exactly sure how it could be best implemented in Smash though, other than just appearing for a few seconds during a taunt. Could work as an item any character can use though. Mechanically an item that makes you invincible for the duration of one attack is much more interesting for Smash than something like the star, which makes you invincible for a short amount of time.

 

[uptonogood]

I've made a revised moveset for Samus based on sugesstions ive read in this thread from older posts. One post mentioned each beam upgrade replaces her forward special with the different charge combos from Metroid Prime so I made my revisions around that. I also took inspiration from PM where each beam alters her smash attacks.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OokIy2kxFrvAdA2GTYY5zBDecRLySOX7Kn4CgJhi9Dc/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Jotari]

One thing I don't think that's been mentioned here is anything for Simon (and Richter) Belmont. There are lots of abilities and magic and stuff throughout the Castlevannia games that easily could be implemented into Smash Bros., but the only really iconic Castlevannia move I feel is missing is the dagger sub weapon. The Clock is pretty iconic too, but a bit weirder to put into a moveset and is already existent as an item (albeit not from the Castlevannia series, though it works practically identically). But the Knife has been in basically every Castlevannia, or near enough to make no difference. It's even sort of plot relevant in Simon's second game where he uses Wooden Stakes in the same manner to clear castles. And, best of all, there's a distinct difference in how Simon and Richter use daggers, as Richter throws three at a time in Vampire Kiss. You could give Simon a variation that changes to a more powerful wooden stake 1/8 times while Richter gets a more consistent triple throw. The only issue, of course, is that Simon and Richter already have a full set of specials. Though honestly I think I could actually do without the Uppercut. I always feel as if the Axe should be the up special as it feels like Yoshi's egg toss. And Belmont could uniquely not have a recovery special since their regular attacks work as a tether grab. Improve that function and you could easily make them a character without a natural recovery special, like Jigglypuff.
Or just bring back custom specials and put the dagger in that way

 

[Quillion]

One thing I don't think that's been mentioned here is anything for Simon (and Richter) Belmont. There are lots of abilities and magic and stuff throughout the Castlevannia games that easily could be implemented into Smash Bros., but the only really iconic Castlevannia move I feel is missing is the dagger sub weapon. The Clock is pretty iconic too, but a bit weirder to put into a moveset and is already existent as an item (albeit not from the Castlevannia series, though it works practically identically). But the Knife has been in basically every Castlevannia, or near enough to make no difference. It's even sort of plot relevant in Simon's second game where he uses Wooden Stakes in the same manner to clear castles. And, best of all, there's a distinct difference in how Simon and Richter use daggers, as Richter throws three at a time in Vampire Kiss. You could give Simon a variation that changes to a more powerful wooden stake 1/8 times while Richter gets a more consistent triple throw. The only issue, of course, is that Simon and Richter already have a full set of specials. Though honestly I think I could actually do without the Uppercut. I always feel as if the Axe should be the up special as it feels like Yoshi's egg toss. And Belmont could uniquely not have a recovery special since their regular attacks work as a tether grab. Improve that function and you could easily make them a character without a natural recovery special, like Jigglypuff.
Or just bring back custom specials and put the dagger in that way

On the other hand, the dagger has constantly been derided by Castlevania fans as the weakest and most useless sub across the series (mainly the "Classicvania" games). With that in mind, I'm not really surprised that they only had the Axe, Cross Boomerang, and Holy Water, all three of which are the most popular subs across the series.

 

[Jotari]

On the other hand, the dagger has constantly been derided by Castlevania fans as the weakest and most useless sub across the series (mainly the "Classicvania" games). With that in mind, I'm not really surprised that they only had the Axe, Cross Boomerang, and Holy Water, all three of which are the most popular subs across the series.

I wouldn't say the fact that it's weaker is a good reason to not include it though (and I wouldn't even say the fact that it's weaker than the other subweapons is particularly bad design). What's important is wether it can be implemented into Smash Bros. in such a manner that can be useful.

 

[VreyIsGrey]

It's criminal that does not have a Coconut Gun, or any projectile at all for that manner.

 

[fogbadge]

It's criminal that does not have a Coconut Gun, or any projectile at all for that manner.

wasnt that just from one game?

 

[VreyIsGrey]

wasnt that just from one game?

Yeah, but I think it's iconic enough to be a new special move to replace Giant Punch.
Either that or a move involving throwing barrels.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, but I think it's iconic enough to be a new special move to replace Giant Punch.
Either that or a move involving throwing barrels.

I’ll have to your word for it I’m a bit blinded by nostalgia for dk64

 

[VreyIsGrey]

Personally, I think the CG would be a better counter projectile for camping seeing as DK desperately needs one. And maybe the barrels can be incorporated as a Final Smash, sort of like SSF2.

 

[Quillion]

I would honestly like to hear one good reason as to why a projectile won't ruin DK's moveset design.

 

[fogbadge]

I would honestly like to hear one good reason as to why a projectile won't ruin DK's moveset design.

previous interactions suggest thats not happening

 

[Diddy Kong]

I would honestly like to hear one good reason as to why a projectile won't ruin DK's moveset design.

DK having a projectile is as much of a "sin" as Ganondorf having one, yet with Ganondorf it's one of the major requests, aside from the sword which happened with Ultimate. So that's my argument.

DK also desperately needs a move to keep his enemies at bay. My suggestion is to give DK the sound wave clap attack from DK Jungle Beat as a aerial Down B.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I would honestly like to hear one good reason as to why a projectile won't ruin DK's moveset design.

Because RN his neutral is just standing around waiting for the other guy to make a mistake. The optimal DK gameplay is so boring, but also very ineffective. Adding a projectile would opponents incentive to try to enter his danger zone while also giving him a way to combat camping. It doesn’t need to be like charged shot or Kafrizz. In all honesty, it just needs to be like peanut pop-gun but better because pop-gun is garbage. All he would lose is another armored kill move, which he has plenty of. In fact, its more of a desperation move that relies on careless opponents not watching out for the punch.

 

[Quillion]

Lack of range is supposed to be a major weakness of "classical heavies" like DK, Ganondorf, and Ike. I know people want those three characters to have their "iconic projectiles" and all, and I know it's not just because "more faithful to canon"; people want them as legitimate buffs.

But there has to be a way to buff characters in a way that doesn't negate a critical, intentional design choice just for the sake of becoming more faithful to canon. Like I said before, a whole bunch of Smash 4-on characters sacrifice good moveset design just for the sake of recreating their canon abilities.

I'm not saying it's impossible to buff with a more canon-compliant change: I want Zelda to regain her Light Arrow as a non-Final Smash move, but I'm careful to note that Zelda has the makings of a zoner. A straightforward killing projectile would complement her mixup projectile and aimable, damage-tacking projectile, at least IMO.

I just don't see a projectile doing anything but making DK, Ganondorf, and Ike better in a cheap, frontloaded Brawl!Meta Knight fashion instead of a synergistic Melee!Fox manner.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Lack of range is supposed to be a major weakness of "classical heavies" like DK, Ganondorf, and Ike.

Then its a bad design decision

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Where is Mario's ability to inflate like a balloon, whilst slowly traversing across the skies in an upward direction? I see no reason for this vitally important aspect of Mario's character to be missing. It's ludicrous.


On a more serious note, I find it funny that the Ground Pound isn't in Mario's kit, like, at all. It just seems like such a logical addition somehow, but then I'm not sure whether it would be a down aerial or a Down B...

 

[fogbadge]

On a more serious note, I find it funny that the Ground Pound isn't in Mario's kit, like, at all. It just seems like such a logical addition somehow, but then I'm not sure whether it would be a down aerial or a Down B...

cause they gave it to yoshi

 

[Jotari]

Where is Mario's ability to inflate like a balloon, whilst slowly traversing across the skies in an upward direction? I see no reason for this vitally important aspect of Mario's character to be missing. It's ludicrous.


On a more serious note, I find it funny that the Ground Pound isn't in Mario's kit, like, at all. It just seems like such a logical addition somehow, but then I'm not sure whether it would be a down aerial or a Down B...

I could definitely see it as his down aerial, but then that's already taken because they moved his spin, another pretty iconic move, from his Down Special to his down aerial. I guess they could move his current down aerial to his neutral aerial, but when you've remapped a move twice you really have to start asking does Mario actually need a ground pound or is adding it just for the sake of adding it (how useful it would be on Mario I have no idea, Mario and his variations have been some of the least interesting characters to me ever since Melee.).


On the subject of Donkey Kong, if he is to get a projectile, I'd rather it be a barrel toss, which is a bigger element of the Donkey Kong series (and something around since the very first game in the arcade days). This would also help get the best of both worlds, as if he can only throw one barrel and then has a cooldown before throwing another (something that would seem more natural than only being able to shoot one coconut at a time), then it wouldn't be an annoying spammy projectile, while also still granting advantages of forcing approach options by being available whenever there is a lull he needs to take advantage of.

 

[Jotari]

I played Kirby and the Crystal Shards a few weeks back, and something that struck me about that game was that Kirby has a hit box when exiting Stone in that game. Which would be very useful for Smash Bros as the big weakness of the attack is that it leaves you highly exposed...it still wouldn't be a good move by any measure, but actually having a hitbox when you exit would at least give you some more utility.

There was also another move from the same game that struck me as useful for a neutral air...but I kind of procrastinated a tonne and forgot. I think it might have been that games incarnation of Ice (though a freezing neutral air might feel a bit too weird for a basic character like Kirby).