What’s the silliest Smash argument you’ve heard? - Read OP

Glaciacott

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#81
- "Dixie Kong is just a pink Diddy"
As someone who grew up in the SNES era of EVERYONE knowing the differences in gameplay between Diddy and Dixie, this one burns my soul

- Argues Minecraft Steve doesn't deserve to be in Smash; At the same time supports indie third parties or random other AAA characters like Doomguy
Look, I understand we all think different games are more important to gaming, and I myself would lose it if we got stuff like Shantae or playable Shovel Knight or w.e. else. But brah, anyone alive in the last almost ten years knows what Minecraft is. It's like the third party iteration of the "geno is more important than [mario character actually playable in several games]"

- The Stork from Yoshi's Island should be a playable character
Now, I know this sounds like a meme discussion, and idk who it was or how many other people here had to witness this, but I remember legitimately trying to explain to people during the Smash 4 cycle that, no, the stork from Yoshi's Island that was carrying Baby Mario and Baby Luigi and "fought" kamek, was NOT a character that should be in Smash.

- "Incineroar is the most popular Sun and Moon starter"
More than half the reason the Incineroar hype train has bother me is because this little gem ALWAYS crops up, never supported with actual data or any actual merit.
No, just because everyone thinks he'll happen because of verge's Ben comments doesn't mean he's the most popular.
No, just because YOU like him and all your friends also like him and talk about him doesn't mean he's objectively the most popular. You need actual data to back up **** like this.
Being super into the Popplio line makes it all the worse. The Popplio line received such vitriolic hate pre-Sun and Moon for being girly and stupid and a host of other things. Then we get polls actually showing Primarina as the most popular of the third phase starters in japan AND STILL people will talk about Decidueye and Incineroar as if Primarina doesn't ****ing exist and it just....aaaaaarrrrggghhh
The worst thing is that by default of being in Smash, this will wind up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy and Gen 7 will just be another pokemon gen where the elegant, feminine starter gets pushed aside and hated while the "most likely to be cool to 10 year old boys" starter goes down in history as significant.

Which leads me to the other one, which is the culmination of my first one and this last one:
- "You just want X character because it's your waifu" "X character just got in to add more waifus"
Now, I'll do my best to avoid my inherent hate of what the term "waifu" has become online. But even without that, this mentality is toxic at best.
Has it ever occurred to these turds that maybe, just maybe, it IS possible to like a female character because she's cool and awesome and not just because we're all weaboos wanting to sleep with them?
I mean, for ****s sake people, has it occurred to you that MAYBE, there's girl smash players out there that like playing as these female characters because we LIKE those characters? ****, even in fighting games as a whole it's such a stupid trend that most female fighters just get sexualized to hell and back (see: street fighter)... Can we NOT bring that mentality to Smash?
Hell, I even had someone once at a tournament call me out for only using girl characters. Like, wtf man. Does it not cross your brain that as a girl gamer maybe I hold value in getting to play as strong women in games? Why the **** should this be a problem to you?
Even right now it happens so much with characters like Shantae and Ashley... like, seriously, I get the internet is creepy and there's actual people out there who only see these characters as means to get off... but honestly, if your sole idea of these characters is that people want them because of pervertedness, I'm sorry to tell you that perhaps it's you that's the problem. Particularly with Ashley seeing how she's a kid.... I mean christ man, the things you see here sometimes.
 

CodakTheWarrior

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 7, 2017
Messages
435
#83
- "Dixie Kong is just a pink Diddy"
As someone who grew up in the SNES era of EVERYONE knowing the differences in gameplay between Diddy and Dixie, this one burns my soul

- Argues Minecraft Steve doesn't deserve to be in Smash; At the same time supports indie third parties or random other AAA characters like Doomguy
Look, I understand we all think different games are more important to gaming, and I myself would lose it if we got stuff like Shantae or playable Shovel Knight or w.e. else. But brah, anyone alive in the last almost ten years knows what Minecraft is. It's like the third party iteration of the "geno is more important than [mario character actually playable in several games]"

- The Stork from Yoshi's Island should be a playable character
Now, I know this sounds like a meme discussion, and idk who it was or how many other people here had to witness this, but I remember legitimately trying to explain to people during the Smash 4 cycle that, no, the stork from Yoshi's Island that was carrying Baby Mario and Baby Luigi and "fought" kamek, was NOT a character that should be in Smash.

- "Incineroar is the most popular Sun and Moon starter"
More than half the reason the Incineroar hype train has bother me is because this little gem ALWAYS crops up, never supported with actual data or any actual merit.
No, just because everyone thinks he'll happen because of verge's Ben comments doesn't mean he's the most popular.
No, just because YOU like him and all your friends also like him and talk about him doesn't mean he's objectively the most popular. You need actual data to back up **** like this.
Being super into the Popplio line makes it all the worse. The Popplio line received such vitriolic hate pre-Sun and Moon for being girly and stupid and a host of other things. Then we get polls actually showing Primarina as the most popular of the third phase starters in japan AND STILL people will talk about Decidueye and Incineroar as if Primarina doesn't ****ing exist and it just....aaaaaarrrrggghhh
The worst thing is that by default of being in Smash, this will wind up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy and Gen 7 will just be another pokemon gen where the elegant, feminine starter gets pushed aside and hated while the "most likely to be cool to 10 year old boys" starter goes down in history as significant.

Which leads me to the other one, which is the culmination of my first one and this last one:
- "You just want X character because it's your waifu" "X character just got in to add more waifus"
Now, I'll do my best to avoid my inherent hate of what the term "waifu" has become online. But even without that, this mentality is toxic at best.
Has it ever occurred to these turds that maybe, just maybe, it IS possible to like a female character because she's cool and awesome and not just because we're all weaboos wanting to sleep with them?
I mean, for ****s sake people, has it occurred to you that MAYBE, there's girl smash players out there that like playing as these female characters because we LIKE those characters? ****, even in fighting games as a whole it's such a stupid trend that most female fighters just get sexualized to hell and back (see: street fighter)... Can we NOT bring that mentality to Smash?
Hell, I even had someone once at a tournament call me out for only using girl characters. Like, wtf man. Does it not cross your brain that as a girl gamer maybe I hold value in getting to play as strong women in games? Why the **** should this be a problem to you?
Even right now it happens so much with characters like Shantae and Ashley... like, seriously, I get the internet is creepy and there's actual people out there who only see these characters as means to get off... but honestly, if your sole idea of these characters is that people want them because of pervertedness, I'm sorry to tell you that perhaps it's you that's the problem. Particularly with Ashley seeing how she's a kid.... I mean christ man, the things you see here sometimes.
On your last point, I really am sorry for you having to deal with that. I’m personally male so I don’t have to deal with that, but I think if the sole reason you like a character is because of some sick attraction to them then that’s just perverse. I’m sorry you have to deal with that, and all the power in the world to you for standing up and doing what you want to do.
 
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#85
Which leads me to the other one, which is the culmination of my first one and this last one:
- "You just want X character because it's your waifu" "X character just got in to add more waifus"
Now, I'll do my best to avoid my inherent hate of what the term "waifu" has become online. But even without that, this mentality is toxic at best.
Has it ever occurred to these turds that maybe, just maybe, it IS possible to like a female character because she's cool and awesome and not just because we're all weaboos wanting to sleep with them?
I mean, for ****s sake people, has it occurred to you that MAYBE, there's girl smash players out there that like playing as these female characters because we LIKE those characters? ****, even in fighting games as a whole it's such a stupid trend that most female fighters just get sexualized to hell and back (see: street fighter)... Can we NOT bring that mentality to Smash?
Hell, I even had someone once at a tournament call me out for only using girl characters. Like, wtf man. Does it not cross your brain that as a girl gamer maybe I hold value in getting to play as strong women in games? Why the **** should this be a problem to you?
Even right now it happens so much with characters like Shantae and Ashley... like, seriously, I get the internet is creepy and there's actual people out there who only see these characters as means to get off... but honestly, if your sole idea of these characters is that people want them because of pervertedness, I'm sorry to tell you that perhaps it's you that's the problem. Particularly with Ashley seeing how she's a kid.... I mean christ man, the things you see here sometimes.
Honestly, every single playable character in Smash has Rule 34, even the likes of Jigglypuff, so I agree that this type of argument doesn't really make any sense.
 

Loliko YnT

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#86
"You can't support this character, his franchise is dead!"

That's what people said to me when I talk about Klonoa and Chibi-Robo. Or even Isaac.
Yeah, they kinda are. But we said that about Mega Man. Or even any niche character at the time, like Shulk was.

"Louie? Lol, nobody care."

Seriously, Louie is one of the easiest echo to include. Give him Bulbmin or rock pikmins, and that's it. The only difference in his skeleton is that is head and helmet are a bit bigger.
Who cared about Fire Emblem before Smash? Or F-Zero? or Xenoblade? Or Pikmin? Yeah, not many people. If you put Louie in, more people will at least say "Oh, what's Pikmin?" and this alone is enough to give more popularity to a franchise.

"Rayman isn't a gaming icon! He's not even popular world wide!"

I think :ultbayonetta: kinda counter that. Yeah, I love Bayo' games, but she's too young of a character to be called a gaming icon. Nintendo and Platinum games were very close during Sm4sh developpment, and she got request, and she got in.
Ubisoft relation-ship with Nintendo is even bigger, I mean, Nintendo did let them use the Mario,DK and Starfox franchise! A Rabbids and Mario cross-over isn't nothing. And Rayman is a way older character than :ultbayonetta:, he was born in the late 90's , and even if he only got 5 main games (If we don't count the GB/GBA/DS versions, mobiles, and rabbids games.)they all did end up on Nintendo systems. And the re-release of Rayman Legends on the switch and his inclusion in Brawlhalla show that Ubsioft care about the limbless wonder.
And Little Mac and Ridley were added because of WESTERN DEMANDS. He may not be in the base roster, but saying he doesn't have a shot to be DLC... Well, I don't know what to say, except that theses dudes got in because of DLC: :ultbayonetta::ultcloud::ultryu:

"You can't make an amiibo of Rayman"

... Do you seriously think it's Sakurai priority?

"Geno is only wanted by nostalgic idiots."

I toned it down, because let's say people can insult you quickly when they don't agree with you.
Yeah, he only appeared in SMRPG and Super Star Saga. He's a one-off character (because he's owned by Square, otherwise I'm sure he would at least have a bigger presence in the Mario RPGs games if he wasn't)... But he mean a lot to olders Mario fans.
SMRPG is a game that truly gave a personnality to the mushroom kingdom, and their characters. Most characters personnality will stay the same in the other Mario RPGs.
I won't go much into details, but here is a video of PapaGenos who explain why people want him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6htFA0ugYk

Also... When a character this old still has huge support since the 90's, to this day... It show that Nostalgia can be a good thing. Because trust me, a lot of people did discover SMRPG because of "Geno4Smash" , myself included.
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
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#87
"Charizard was better as a solo fighter"

Bruv if I could punch someone through the internet...
I was going to pick up Charizard in Sm4sh because he was a solo character. I'm kind of glad I didn't since he's going back to Pokemon Trainer. Pokemon Trainer has multiple options in comparison where Charizard might not be able to deal with certain MUs. For example, if Charizard is having a hard time against Sheik in Ultimate, but Squirtle can deal with her, then this helps Charizard become someone more viable than his Sm4sh counterpart, simply because you can just select a different character on whim. I would prefer Charizard as a solo character, but at least this time he might be able to reach the top because of a couple of friends on his side.
 
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#88
“X shouldn’t have a fighter as the game doesn’t fit the style and a stage would work better”
An argument that is commonly used for Minecraft, Endless Ocean, and other more peaceful titles, neglecting the fact that we literally have two Animal Crossing characters.

“X character is just a joke, thus it has no actual popularity”
I guess if you want Steve or Waluigi, than you’re just a troll and are as bad as Goku supporters.

- "Dixie Kong is just a pink Diddy"
As someone who grew up in the SNES era of EVERYONE knowing the differences in gameplay between Diddy and Dixie, this one burns my soul

- Argues Minecraft Steve doesn't deserve to be in Smash; At the same time supports indie third parties or random other AAA characters like Doomguy
Look, I understand we all think different games are more important to gaming, and I myself would lose it if we got stuff like Shantae or playable Shovel Knight or w.e. else. But brah, anyone alive in the last almost ten years knows what Minecraft is. It's like the third party iteration of the "geno is more important than [mario character actually playable in several games]"

- The Stork from Yoshi's Island should be a playable character
Now, I know this sounds like a meme discussion, and idk who it was or how many other people here had to witness this, but I remember legitimately trying to explain to people during the Smash 4 cycle that, no, the stork from Yoshi's Island that was carrying Baby Mario and Baby Luigi and "fought" kamek, was NOT a character that should be in Smash.

- "Incineroar is the most popular Sun and Moon starter"
More than half the reason the Incineroar hype train has bother me is because this little gem ALWAYS crops up, never supported with actual data or any actual merit.
No, just because everyone thinks he'll happen because of verge's Ben comments doesn't mean he's the most popular.
No, just because YOU like him and all your friends also like him and talk about him doesn't mean he's objectively the most popular. You need actual data to back up **** like this.
Being super into the Popplio line makes it all the worse. The Popplio line received such vitriolic hate pre-Sun and Moon for being girly and stupid and a host of other things. Then we get polls actually showing Primarina as the most popular of the third phase starters in japan AND STILL people will talk about Decidueye and Incineroar as if Primarina doesn't ****ing exist and it just....aaaaaarrrrggghhh
The worst thing is that by default of being in Smash, this will wind up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy and Gen 7 will just be another pokemon gen where the elegant, feminine starter gets pushed aside and hated while the "most likely to be cool to 10 year old boys" starter goes down in history as significant.

Which leads me to the other one, which is the culmination of my first one and this last one:
- "You just want X character because it's your waifu" "X character just got in to add more waifus"
Now, I'll do my best to avoid my inherent hate of what the term "waifu" has become online. But even without that, this mentality is toxic at best.
Has it ever occurred to these turds that maybe, just maybe, it IS possible to like a female character because she's cool and awesome and not just because we're all weaboos wanting to sleep with them?
I mean, for ****s sake people, has it occurred to you that MAYBE, there's girl smash players out there that like playing as these female characters because we LIKE those characters? ****, even in fighting games as a whole it's such a stupid trend that most female fighters just get sexualized to hell and back (see: street fighter)... Can we NOT bring that mentality to Smash?
Hell, I even had someone once at a tournament call me out for only using girl characters. Like, wtf man. Does it not cross your brain that as a girl gamer maybe I hold value in getting to play as strong women in games? Why the **** should this be a problem to you?
Even right now it happens so much with characters like Shantae and Ashley... like, seriously, I get the internet is creepy and there's actual people out there who only see these characters as means to get off... but honestly, if your sole idea of these characters is that people want them because of pervertedness, I'm sorry to tell you that perhaps it's you that's the problem. Particularly with Ashley seeing how she's a kid.... I mean christ man, the things you see here sometimes.
I’m clapping, this is so powerful! I pretty much agree with everything said.

Funny cause I don’t really support either Shantae or Ashley.
To me Steve should be the indie rep for being more of an influencer and being more recognizable in gaming as a whole, and Ashley is a great character but Mona should call first dibs being there from the beginning and a more prominent face in the WarioWare franchise as a whole

One question though, as you bring this up, are you against sexualizing female characters? Your post didn’t really make that clear.
 

Glaciacott

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#89
One question though, as you bring this up, are you against sexualizing female characters? Your post didn’t really make that clear.
I think stuff like this depends heavily on context.

Like, if we're talking about something like Shantae or Fire Emblem where the designs are clearly fan-servicey, it bothers me to a degree but I can shrug it off as long as it doesn't interfere with the core point of the game. Shantae works for me in the sense that Shantae as a character isn't defined by that sex appeal, and even when the game goes overboard with fan-service, it also does it in the other direction (see: Bran-son.)
In Fire Emblem games it tends to not bother me since usually even sexualized characters have more to their personality, though it does bother me when the fan service defies what the character is about. Core example is FEH adding a bride skin for Lyn that, when you think on it, doesn't really fit who Lyn is as a person. In those cases, it feels like the developers taking away a character I like and relate to from me and giving it to someone else, presumably a dude who wants Lyn as a "waifu"

I also mind it little in cases of Bayonetta since sexuality and over-the-top is very much what Bayonetta is about in terms of its artistic design. To deny sexuality from Bayonetta would be to deny a core aspect of who Bayonetta is.

But anyway, to take it back, that's why I oppose it heavily in instances like Smash. These characters make it to smash because of personality and character. For me, the core example is Palutena making it to Smash because of being an ever-present foil to Pit whose personality I relate to (the good and the bad) and whose presence allowed me to enjoy Kid Icarus Uprising significantly more than if Pit were the only character to cheer for. Not to mention the fact she's a powerful goddess who is not afraid to sass and troll everyone, and a cool role model of a female leader in a game who can lead capably while still making mistakes and being flawed. Basically, she's a rich character.
So imagine feeling that and then in comes random person to say that your favorite character is their waifu, is just there to get people to jerk off, is only liked because people want to sleep with her, etc etc.... it not only reduces fans to perverts, it also reduces the character to an object, and it also promotes a message that the value of female characters or femininity as a whole revolves entirely around male pleasure.
It's the sort of stuff that makes it hard as a woman to take fighting game communities seriously or to want to participate in them.
 

pap64

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#91
The most ridiculous one (which I assume someone must have mentioned it already here) is that Smash can't be taken seriously as a competitive fighting game, and I loathe it when fighting game experts dismiss Smash and continue to suck on Street Mortal Tekken Fighters's toes (not bashing those series I love them to pieces myself).

I get where most of them are coming from; Smash WAS designed to be a party brawler, and it wasn't until Melee (and heck maybe even during the 64 days) that players began to realize that there is some depth behind this and such it isn't till now where we start to take Smash seriously competitive wise. But even with the competitive scene so vocal, constantly posting in-depth information like frame date, damage percentage and such, many still dismiss Smash to this game because it is not a traditional 1-on-1 game. Yet broken games like Marvel vs. Capcom 2, which are similar to Smash, continue to be seen as important games to be played competitively.

Smash is a fighting game, just not in the traditional sense. To dismiss it would be to ignore the fact that game genres can be done in different ways.
 
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#92
This is about prospective newcomers, but every time I hear someone say that Kefka should be the FFVI rep over Terra because he's "iconic" or the "unofficial mascot" of the game, I want to shoot myself in the face.

Terra is literally the most iconic character in the game; she's on the official logo, she's on the box art illustrations for every single release of FFVI (except the original U.S. SNES release), her theme is the main theme of the game (and is used as a motif for several music tracks in the game), she has the most screen time out of any character, and is absolutely pivotal to the main themes of magic vs. humanity, overcoming depression and loss, and coming of age. She has the most illustrations out of any Final Fantasy character in the series, and has always been the go-to representative for FFVI in all of SE's crossover games.

Kefka also isn't very popular in Japan, he's widely seen as an obnoxious idiot over there and is generally passed over in favor of other villains such as Golbez or Sephiroth. Meanwhile, Terra has always consistently ranked highly on both sides of the Pacific and is well liked all-around. Not to mention it would be just plain illogical to put the villain in before the hero; it would be like making Bowser or Dracula playable before Mario or any members of the Belmont clan, it makes far more sense to turn Kefka into a boss instead. If there's any FFVI character who would make it in instead of Terra, it would be Celes, who is the other main protagonist of FFVI.

Fortunately it's not an argument I don't see too often, but it really grinds my gears nonetheless. FFVI is one of my favorite games of all time, and I would hate it if it were represented in the form of the antithesis of its themes.
 

lucasla

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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#93
"The game doesnt need a campaign because it has never been the focus and SSE was bad"

I disagree that the game doesnt "need" a campaign, I always thought something was missing in the game, and it is surely a good campaign... the game always lacked some good singleplayer content to me. And then we have the fact that Brawl had SSE that was just ok or bad to some people, and people try to justify that the next games doesnt need a campaign because it can't be good like happened with SSE... Man... they just need to make it right one time, it's not impossible just because it never happened. With so many great characters, I simply can't believe it is impossible to have a good campaign that can please many people and even be a crucial part of the game.
 

dada5714

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#94
Back during the Brawl days, there was a user who'd get into rage-filled arguments for why Moogle would be a perfect character, keep in mind all we had at the time was Snake (and then Sonic) as third-party reps AND considering even if they had a Square rep, there are way too many other recognizable characters.
 

Glaciacott

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#95
"The game doesnt need a campaign because it has never been the focus and SSE was bad"

I disagree that the game doesnt "need" a campaign, I always thought something was missing in the game, and it is surely a good campaign... the game always lacked some good singleplayer content to me. And then we have the fact that Brawl had SSE that was just ok or bad to some people, and people try to justify that the next games doesnt need a campaign because it can't be good like happened with SSE... Man... they just need to make it right one time, it's not impossible just because it never happened. With so many great characters, I simply can't believe it is impossible to have a good campaign that can please many people and even be a crucial part of the game.
Curious about what you mean when you say a campaign. Are you thinking in terms of what SSE was where you have kirby-like levels and a story progression? And if so, my question would be how it would be better than subspace emissary, or if you just want an improved SSE.

I would also argue that so many characters makes it harder, not easier. You'd have to do justice to over 70 characters and aim to balance their presence in the story as best as possible.
 
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#96
Curious about what you mean when you say a campaign. Are you thinking in terms of what SSE was where you have kirby-like levels and a story progression? And if so, my question would be how it would be better than subspace emissary, or if you just want an improved SSE.

I would also argue that so many characters makes it harder, not easier. You'd have to do justice to over 70 characters and aim to balance their presence in the story as best as possible.
Can I put in a suggestion for a Story Mode.

It starts and all hope is lost, you see nothing but fire, as trophies fall one after another; Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Samus, etc. A mountain of trophy bodies can be seen with the villains on top laughing at their ultimate victory in conquering the heroes. Then the camera pulls back to see a tv screen as a dark figure goes running....cue Mii Maker menu. Yeah, I know, weird, but this story mode could work. Miis are a non-entity, so have them be the main character as they go through and save the various Nintendo and 3rd Party all-stars by taking on their worlds and bosses. Every Hero you save gets added to your party, allowing for more playable characters in the story mode. The mode also has branching paths, want to check out the Mario world first, go ahead. More of a Kirby fan, save his world then.
Each World has at maximum 5 stages, with smaller franchises and 3rd party getting 2. One Stage will always be a boss battle though, so Castlevania, for instance, has you platform your way through the first level to save Simon and Richter, then you go to stage two and fight Dracula. Franchises like Mario can have 5 with two boss stages and 3 actual levels. The first level has you save Mario and Peach (along with Dr. Mario who is selectable afterwards), finding out that their captor was none other than Petey Piranha who you fight in the next stage, then you find that more heroes have been locked away in a haunted mansion. Go through the level to save Luigi and Daisy leading into the next stage boss battle against King Boo. Finally the cast shoots up into the sky and past the clouds for the ultimate intergalactic level, capping the world off with a fight against Bowser and Jr., along with the Koopa Kids after saving Rosalina.

Other ideas are having the worlds of Shadow Dragon, Awakening, and Fates as levels, while the Radiant titles get a Black Knight boss battle, and Binding Blade gets a battle against Zephiel as a way to represent all the FE titles that are a part of Smash.

Finally, once you complete all levels the Subspace opens up and you must go through levels containing some old Subspace bosses that return from Brawl, then the final bosses of each Smash game leading up to the final new boss; Master Hand (64), Crazy Hand (Melee), Giga Bowser (Melee), Tabuu (Brawl), Master Core (Wii U + 3DS), then finally the ultimate villain, Hades from Kid Icarus Uprising who’s been working behind the scenes this whole time

I feel this could remedy many of the Subspace’s issues. Having Miis as the main star would stop any bias picking from arising as Miis are customizable characters, making you or anyone you want the main hero. It would also fix the issue of a lack of franchise presence in story mode, which was a huge issue to many as Subspace was too original for its own good. Also letting you choose levels would allow for the player to use their preferred characters for as much as they’d like, want Mario characters, than 5 easy levels should get you who you need, it’d just make for a more enjoyable experience overall. I also think there should be minimal cutscenes, as they were cool but not worth the effort for something that lost its appeal after the first round. Just have cutscenes be the villain intros and such, no need to make one every level.
 
Last edited:

lucasla

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
412
#97
Curious about what you mean when you say a campaign. Are you thinking in terms of what SSE was where you have kirby-like levels and a story progression? And if so, my question would be how it would be better than subspace emissary, or if you just want an improved SSE.

I would also argue that so many characters makes it harder, not easier. You'd have to do justice to over 70 characters and aim to balance their presence in the story as best as possible.
I have some different ideas of how a campaign of Smash could be. One of them is really something like Subspace Emissary, but with better stages and overall quality in everything. I think that the stages and enemies in SSE were very boring and lacking any real decent level design, with the exception of some bosses. I remember how boring was fight some eletric clouds and some generic enemy clones... and most of the levels had terrible simplistic plataforming sections...

And different of what you think about the many characers of the game, I don't think it would make it harder, but would only provide more possibilities that they could use or not.

For example, I imagine a story of parallel universes colliding, that could be used to mix all these different characters in one game. Then, at first, you would not be able to play the campaign with all the characters of the game, but with some starting character, and then in different moments you could choose the character, just like in SSE.

For the levels of the campaign, it could be as mixed as the characters we have in the game. You could start the game with Mario (obviously, it's mario), playing a remaked version first stage of Super Mario World, with goombas and koopas like the game, but being able to fight them with the gameplay of smash, but then something happens at the end of stage when you reach the pole and you are send to a sonic stage, but playing with Mario, and then, during all stages or at the end of each stage you would save a character and it would be added to your characters list.

My idea for a campaign is something like this, levels that are really adapted remakes or based on levels for some selected games of characters of the roster. Memoreble levels, with great plataforming sections too. I imagine this game as a way to play with MegaMan in a Mario stage, to play with Sonic in a Kirby stage, to play with Pikachu in a Donkey Kong Country stage, to fight Pokemons with Inklings or Ryu, or fight the angels of Bayonetta with Luigi or Snake or Cloud, fight hordes of pacman ghosts with Pacman , or play a Metroid stage with Fox or Link. I see so many possibilities of mixing remakes of levels from many of these series but playing them with characters that are different from the series (or not!). And on top of that you could make many different events, like stages with hordes of Pokemons or Mii Fighters to survive, and bosses that are really bosses of many of these games.

With only being able to select some couple of characters in each stage, it would not be so hard to balance all the stages in the game. And after finish the campaign you could be able to play the entire campaign with the character you want and at the difficult level you want, increase the ammount of enemies by x%, play it in coop with one friend, and it all would increase the replayability of the campaign.
 
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Which leads me to the other one, which is the culmination of my first one and this last one:
- "You just want X character because it's your waifu" "X character just got in to add more waifus"
Now, I'll do my best to avoid my inherent hate of what the term "waifu" has become online. But even without that, this mentality is toxic at best.
Has it ever occurred to these turds that maybe, just maybe, it IS possible to like a female character because she's cool and awesome and not just because we're all weaboos wanting to sleep with them?
I mean, for ****s sake people, has it occurred to you that MAYBE, there's girl smash players out there that like playing as these female characters because we LIKE those characters? ****, even in fighting games as a whole it's such a stupid trend that most female fighters just get sexualized to hell and back (see: street fighter)... Can we NOT bring that mentality to Smash?
Hell, I even had someone once at a tournament call me out for only using girl characters. Like, wtf man. Does it not cross your brain that as a girl gamer maybe I hold value in getting to play as strong women in games? Why the **** should this be a problem to you?
Even right now it happens so much with characters like Shantae and Ashley... like, seriously, I get the internet is creepy and there's actual people out there who only see these characters as means to get off... but honestly, if your sole idea of these characters is that people want them because of pervertedness, I'm sorry to tell you that perhaps it's you that's the problem. Particularly with Ashley seeing how she's a kid.... I mean christ man, the things you see here sometimes.
"You just want X character because it's your waifu" "X character just got in to add more waifus"
I have a "few" choice words to say about the kind of human garbage that makes this kind of bull**** argument unironically, but unfortunately this isn't debate hall where politics can be discussed non-tangentally, so I'll spare everyone the rant for now and just say "yeah, this one wins the thread for me."
 
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Some particular delusional pearlers:

No one got up to seeing *insert character* in their game/s so that means no one knows about them and that they can't make Smash.

*insert character* is too ugly to be in Smash.

*insert character* is too fat to be in Smash.

I do not like *insert character* and that means they should not be in Smash/ and other players will not like them.

*insert character* is too big.

I was hurt by what one/a few people said from the *Insert character* fanbase so therefore I declare that all fans of *insert character* are like this.

And to a lesser extent, while not being elaborated on at all:

*insert character* deserves to be in Smash.

*insert character* is not iconic enough.

The mind boggles as to what goes through certain peoples heads...
 

letsgetsmashing

Smash Apprentice
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"Mario has too many reps"
This is my least favorite one. I love how Smash brings so many different series together, and I don't want them to stop adding new series. But that doesn't mean I don't want more Mario characters, especially when Mario is Nintendo's biggest franchise.

"Donkey Kong is a Mario character"
Not only is this factually wrong, as Mario appeared in a DK game before DK appeared in a Mario game, but it's annoying. In the previous argument, people like to counter me saying Mario does not have too many reps by arguing that Yoshi, Wario, and the Donkey Kong characters count. You can make a fair argument for Yoshi and Wario, but DK, Diddy, and K. Rool are not Mario characters. They live in the same universe and appear in the same games, yes. But so do all the characters in Smash. Mario & Sonic have had crossovers. Appearing in the same games does not make you from the same series.

"The Legend of Zelda series does not need more representation"
Everyone has the right to their opinion, but to me, if one series in Smash needs more love, it's The Legend of Zelda. It's one of Nintendo's big 3 (along with Pokemon and Mario). I mean look at how it's represented right now. We have 3 Links, all of which share the same moveset despite Young Link and Toon Link having tons of potential for uniqueness, we have two versions of Zelda (not taking a jab at Sheik, but they both represent one character), and an amazing villain in Ganondorf who for some reason in Smash still feels like a Captain Falcon clone.
 
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"Mario has too many reps"
This is my least favorite one. I love how Smash brings so many different series together, and I don't want them to stop adding new series. But that doesn't mean I don't want more Mario characters, especially when Mario is Nintendo's biggest franchise.
I think if anything the Mario roster should have the most reps because the franchise is the face and icon of Nintendo. Pokemon maybe its most popular but Super Mario Bros. is without a doubt its most recognizable when one mentions Nintendo.
 
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JDCabrera

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Although not in this website, someone online told me that Banjo can't be in Smash because it panders to nostalgia.
 
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"Mario has too many reps"
This is my least favorite one. I love how Smash brings so many different series together, and I don't want them to stop adding new series. But that doesn't mean I don't want more Mario characters, especially when Mario is Nintendo's biggest franchise.
Why should being the biggest Nintendo franchise mean anything? Who wants to play Super Mario Bros. Fighters?

"Donkey Kong is a Mario character"
Not only is this factually wrong, as Mario appeared in a DK game before DK appeared in a Mario game, but it's annoying.
You know what people mean. It's a common mistake people make when they say, "x is y", when in fact, y was around before x. Mario and Donkey Kong share the same universe and are also created by the same person.

But so do all the characters in Smash.
Prove it. And no, crossovers and cameo appearances don't count.

Mario & Sonic have had crossovers.
Crossover ≠ canon.

Appearing in the same games does not make you from the same series.
No, but being in the same universe does.

"The Legend of Zelda series does not need more representation"
Everyone has the right to their opinion, but to me, if one series in Smash needs more love, it's The Legend of Zelda. It's one of Nintendo's big 3 (along with Pokemon and Mario).
So is Metroid. So why not more Metroid rep?

We have three Samus'. One plays different, but is way better than the original. The other is an echo fighter.

we have two versions of Zelda (not taking a jab at Sheik, but they both represent one character),
So I guess my aforementioned comment still applies for Zero Suit Samus.
 

Oddball

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I'm also not a fan of (real person that works at Nintendo) needs to be playable. It might be funny to say that, but it's a joke that has no legs and nothing good will come out of it.

Also on that note, having napoleon be playable to represent the old playing cards Nintendo used to make. Nothing about that idea is good.

Generally speaking anytime a person uses "but they represent such and such" as an argument. It's fine that they represent something, but are they a actually good character on their own?


Why should being the biggest Nintendo franchise mean anything?
... I have no idea if you're joking or not.
 
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Champion of Hyrule

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People say Bomberman wouldn’t be a good fighter because all he can do is throw bombs.

I mean, sure that’s all he does in his game but do you really think that’s worse then :ultolimar: who just has a lot of little things following him? Not to insult pikmin of course, but anyways it could be easy enough to have him punch and kick, and do other stuff
 

Kotor

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"Shantae's got strong history with Nintendo. She's been around since the Gameboy Color"

What history? She fell to obscurity for a good 8 years after her first game released. Her games have done nothing to influence the gaming medium in any meaningful way.
 
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"Captain Toad wouldn't work since he can't jump"

Boxing fighters never jump to fight either. And yet Little Mac worked, they just made his jumping abilities and air attacks really bad. Why can't this be the case with Captain Toad as well?
To be fair, there's a big difference there between "can't jump" and "chooses not to jump."
 
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I think if anything the Mario roster should have the most reps because the franchise is the face and icon of Nintendo. Pokemon maybe its most popular but Super Mario Bros. is without a doubt its most recognizable when one mentions Nintendo.
Mario, Legend of Zelda, and Pokemon should all have the most representation in Smash Bros. Whether that is characters, stages, items, music, etc. They've spanned across several generations, have had groundbreaking installations in each generation, and are worldwide popular. They're the faces of Nintendo and have been a part of Smash Bros. since the beginning.
 

letsgetsmashing

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Why should being the biggest Nintendo franchise mean anything? Who wants to play Super Mario Bros. Fighters?



You know what people mean. It's a common mistake people make when they say, "x is y", when in fact, y was around before x. Mario and Donkey Kong share the same universe and are also created by the same person.



Prove it. And no, crossovers and cameo appearances don't count.



Crossover ≠ canon.



No, but being in the same universe does.



So is Metroid. So why not more Metroid rep?



We have three Samus'. One plays different, but is way better than the original. The other is an echo fighter.



So I guess my aforementioned comment still applies for Zero Suit Samus.

First off, I feel you purposely critiqued everyone one of my points because half of them were not valid and implied things I do not think, but were rather things you assumed. So I guess I'll just go through and comment on everything you said.

"Why should being the biggest Nintendo franchise mean anything? Who wants to play Super Mario Bros. Fighters?"
You ask why does Mario being the biggest Nintendo franchise mean anything? What, so does the size of a franchise not affect how many reps it gets in Smash? In that case, Game and Watch could have the same amount of reps as Mario couldn't it? The size of a series, or more specifically it's number of characters, should affect how many characters are playable from that series because usually bigger series are more popular, have more beloved and requested character, and are more mainstream.

"You know what people mean. It's a common mistake people make when they say, "x is y", when in fact, y was around before x. Mario and Donkey Kong share the same universe and are also created by the same person."
Mario and Donkey Kong being created by the same person does not at all make them from the same franchise. Link and Olimar were also created by the same person as Mario and DK, and I sure hope you don't think Pikmin and Super Mario are the same thing.

"So is Metroid. So why not more Metroid rep?"
This is the point where I felt you were just attacking everything I was saying. I never once stated or even slightly implied I was against more Metroid representation. I have Sylux in my signature. I literally said word for word, 'Everyone has the right to their opinion, but to me, if one series in Smash needs more love, it's The Legend of Zelda. It's one of Nintendo's big 3 (along with Pokemon and Mario).' In that quote, I simply stated that in my opinion the series in Smash that most needs more love is LoZ. I never mentioned Metroid. Ever. Like I was literally stating my opinion, which you really shouldn't be attacking anyway.

"We have three Samus'. One plays different, but is way better than the original. The other is an echo fighter."
Yeah we do have three Samus'. And if you would've actually researched a bit about me on Smashboards before attacking me, you'd know I'm also a huge advocate for Dark Samus having a unique moveset. But instead, you implied that by me saying we shouldn't have three Links with the same moveset practically, that meant I wanted there to be three Samus' with the same moveset. And I mean ya know, Zero Suit Samus and Samus don't share many similarities, so it's really two Samus'.

Were you trolling me or are you really jut this judgmental?
 

Oddball

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No. I didn't know that. That's why I replied the way I did.

Now I know you're not joking. You're just wrong.
Mario IS Nintendo. Half the roster could be Mario cast and it still wouldn't seemed forced. He's earned it. The series takes it's name from his series.

Being the biggest franchise is important. I have no idea how anyone couldn't understand that.




Also, honestly I wouldn't mind playing Super Mario Bros. the Fighting game.
 

Luigifan18

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Also, honestly I wouldn't mind playing Super Mario Bros. the Fighting game.
Now that I think about it, the Sonic franchise has had at least two fighting games (Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle; the first of those was made back when Nintendo and Sega were still rivals). Why hasn't Mario had any fighting games?
 
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I totally agree with you on that ! Melee hardcore fans are such a pain in the *** ! If they love it, it's fine ! But don't let your notsalgia alters your judgement. Melee is not the best Smash and it's content is not the most well-developed. Hell, there are so many bugs in Melee, more than in Brawl and Sm4sh.
Just because someone is into Melee doesn’t mean they hate Brawl or objectify any other game like it. I love Mele to an extreme, but I love Brawl, Smash 4, I love smash. There are ******** who hate on Melee who are Brawl players because they didn’t play during the era in which the competitive scene flourished or Merely back lash for reason. People will be ******** no matter what game you play.

What bugs, exactly? What does that say that a game apparently littered with bugs functions better than a fully fleshed out game?

I guess being sent into an untechable situation 1/4th of the time during knockback is alright, as well as dying at 0 from set knockback, being able to tech grounded spikes, hit boxes / hurtbox misalignment is fun.

If a bug I’m a game (not wavedashing, but things like black hole glitch) are improbable to executeand don’t affect gameplay, then it’s exceptable under these conditions. however, if yips are designing things that hinder gameplay out of deliberation, then that’s just whack.

I agree with the Melee 2.0 sentiment, however, when I think Melee 2.0, I think a game that has the success, competitive depth, and longevity of Melee, but within its own regard. It doesn’t need to be a carbon copy of the current mechanics are sound. I’m all for a new experience.

And to go off of that, I’m tired of hearing the argument that “Melee was too hard for “casual” players” as if these things mattered over 15 odd years ago. This argument is commonly used to imply that having s technical smash game would ruin it for other players when they would play said game regardless.
 
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