What’s the silliest Smash argument you’ve heard? - Read OP

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Crystanium

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#42
But seriously though this has had me scratching my head for months. You can't even see Samus' body through normal gameplay in Metroid. Yeah she shows up as a 2D image in the Mission Complete sequences, and Zero Suit is playable for a brief period in the Metroid 1 remake and Other M, but is her breast size really one of her crucial character traits? I could sooner relate to fans that are upset about her hair color changing between blonde, brunette, and green.

Don't tell these "Metroid fans", but Samus no longer has her Super Metroid design and instead has looked closest to her Other M design since Smash 4. "As a Metroid fan..." Ugh, give me a break. Complain about something that matters, like her suits. I don't like how her alt colors are just recolors of the varia suit and there's no proper Fusion Suit, or some of the weirder designs throughout the series.
I'm one of those Metroid fans who did not complain about the size reduction of Zero Suit Samus' breasts. I think part of why I see Samus in a non-sexual manner is because I first played Super Metroid when I was nine years old. I always saw Samus in the armor. The only time she was outside of it was if I died or got a good time and item collection. I prefer Samus in the armor.
 

Oddball

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#43
I'm one of those Metroid fans who did not complain about the size reduction of Zero Suit Samus' breasts. I think part of why I see Samus in a non-sexual manner is because I first played Super Metroid when I was nine years old. I always saw Samus in the armor. The only time she was outside of it was if I died or got a good time and item collection. I prefer Samus in the armor.
I'm with you on that one. Plus when you did get the good ending, Samus looked like she actually had some muscle on her (also she had a far less anime-ish hairstyle). I miss old Samus.
 
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#44
People undermining Skull Kid's popularity for whatever reason and that Zelda only deserves Impa as a new character because the others are all "one shots". Which leads to another thing, prior to "everyone is here", people kept saying Sheik should be cut because she's "irrelevant". OK, a one shot character of what's on the top 3 of most acclaimed games of all time but go off. The same can be applied to when people say one of the Champions from BOTW don't deserve to be in Smash

oh and ofc the box theory/download card theory. We've already went through this "missing spots" in rosters and pictures before. They never meant anything
 

Ze Diglett

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#45
Probably the cavalcade of "Sakurai changed his mind on X thing, therefore anything he has ever said previously means absolutely nothing" I've seen since even before E3. Much like with leakers, people act like the only two options are taking Sakurai's word as gospel or disbelieving it entirely. There's no middle ground anymore. This mindset's led to such ridiculous beliefs as "Sakurai said Villager wasn't fit for fighting, therefore fighting potential doesn't matter" and "Sakurai said Ridley was too big, therefore literally anything can happen". Either the boundaries set in place by the man are absolute and unchanging, or they literally don't exist, even though we know both of these statements to be false.
Dishonorable mentions go to "Waddle Dee is just a Hat Goomba, way too generic to be playable" (that's an opinion, and a misguided one at that, not an argument), "the Speculation Trinity doesn't exist" (I feel like most of the people who say this weren't around during the Brawl days), and the Box Theory (IMHO, it's just the sister theory to looking for open spots on the mural and basing our fighter total off of that, and we all know where that got us).
 
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PeridotGX

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#46
95% of what I see over on Gamefaqs. Including but not limited to "Goomba with a Hat", Geno being more deserving than other characters, and people still complaining about FE.
IRRELEVANT!!!

That is all...
It was a good argument before Ultimate. Everything from 4 was either relevant or a designated retro.
 
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#47
95% of what I see over on Gamefaqs. Including but not limited to "Goomba with a Hat", Geno being more deserving than other characters, and people still complaining about FE.


It was a good argument before Ultimate. Everything from 4 was either relevant or a designated retro.
That's Game FAQ's for you, always negative about anything. I sometimes ask why did I stay on there...
I'm officially done with it now.

It's advisable to avoid like the plague.
 
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xoazi

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#48
KI Fan: "I HATE clone characters, especially Lucina. They take up other characters spots"
Me: "But Dark Pit is a clone"
KI Fan: "No but he's different because this and that and this and that...."
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#51
One that cracks me was one I heard before Smash 4's official announcement. Speculation was expecting Chrom to be in the game for being in the latest FE game, and then some guy in Gfaqs created a topic to suggest that they should merge Marth, Ike and Chrom into one fighter to free roster slots for more fighters. Ironic that despite not knowing how development works a lot of pretentious people come up with terrible solutions and think they are doing a favor to the game.
 

MasterOfKnees

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#52
Does "Too Big" count? Because having to deal with that for so many years, including from the game's developer, was such a pain. Even now there are people who stick by it and say that Ridley doesn't feel like Ridley in Ultimate, despite the lengths the Smash team has gone through to nail his personality. I feel like a lot of people have misinterpreted the character as being just another big beast Samus has to blow up, and although I can't fault them for not having read the manga (which is a huge inspiration for Ultimate's Ridley) it's still so frustrating when people take a hard stance on something they're not educated on.

I have no idea how Sakurai himself fell into the trap as well, I have always admitted Ridley would be difficult to put into Smash because of his proportions and would have understood that argument better, but to suggest that Ridley would no longer be Ridley if he wasn't big and couldn't fly forever was so disappointing coming from him. Ironically now that he's in he's neither the biggest character in the game or the one with the most jumps, in fact his recovery is one of his clear weaknesses.

The amount of times I've had to explain Ridley's core characteristics, including on the ballot, has been so draining, I'm extremely happy I've likely done so for the last time. The people who still stick by the argument aren't worth explaining it to, because at this point it has more to do with how they don't want to admit that they were wrong than anything else.

Maybe not the most ridiculous argument out there, but certainly the most frustrating given the amount of traction it got.
 
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Mariomaniac45213

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#53
It was a good argument before Ultimate. Everything from 4 was either relevant or a designated retro.
Except it was never a good argument because most people didn't actually know what "irrelevant" means. They equate irrelevancy to recency. Which is simply not the case. I've seen the "irrelevant" argument tossed around to characters like K.Rool and Dark Samus. Hell even Ridley to a smaller extent (before Samus Returns came out).

The definition of irrelevant is "not connected with or relevant to something." Sorry I must've missed when K.Rool wasn't relevant and connected to the DK franchise and was the main bad guy in some of the highest selling games on the SNES and N64 (DK64). Yeah he missed 3 games so the F what, so did Bowser, Ganondorf, and Ridley but they have NEVER been hit as hard with the "irrelevancy" card. He is STILL and will always be the main bad guy to the DKC series. The fact that fans never forgot about him and brought him back in of itself doesn't make him "irrelevant". The trophies in Smash Bros 4 stated him as the main bad guy "K.Rool is to DK as Bowser is to Mario"

Also I'm really sick of the "Retro pick" mentality. Did Sakurai ever publicly state that he has to hit a "Retro pick" quota every Smash game or is it just a stupid fan rule that people attach onto? For all we know Sakurai could've just chosen characters like Pit, R.O.B, Duck Hunt, Ice Climbers, and Game & Watch because they had unique moveset potential and nothing more. Let's be honest with ourselves while Smash 4's character roster was an advertising campaign the characters it chose sure as hell won't have much of a life moving forward (besides Bowser Jr. and Rosalina). Think about it. Shulk will probably never be in a main Xenoblade game again his story is up. Yeah he appeared as DLC in Xenoblade 2 as part of challenge mode/sidequests but I don't see him being the star of Xenoblade 3. Robin, Lucina, and Corrin are probably done outside of Fire Emblem Heroes (a mobile game spin-off although popular). Greninja is a Pokemon but will always remain "relevant" but just like any other Pokemon once the gen is up and the new Pokemon gen arrives the new batch of Pokemon will take center stage and he will just be 1 in the 800+ Pokemon in the sea. Wii Fit Trainer while her series sold millions of copies. It was mostly sold to "casuals" and we saw what happened with the Wii audience they bought Wii Sports and Fit and moved on never to touch their Wii's again or buy a Wii U. No one really gives a **** about Wii Fit Trainer and I doubt she has much of a future outside of Smash. Dark Pit do I really have to explain why this "relevant" pick won't live on past Smash?

Smash 4's whole motto was add more for the sake of adding more even if the end result wasn't the best. I feel that way about almost everything, the modes, stages (mostly Wii U's), the character roster. That's why I'm GLAD Ultimate is focusing on bringing everything back but at the same time limiting itself in scope when it comes to new content. The character roster IMO is SO much better than Smash 4's. It's filling in "the missing blanks" with K.Rool and Ridley (while also being fan favorites), giving us ACTUALLY long lasting "relevant" picks like Inklings, Daisy, and Isabelle (3 characters that are here to stay and will be remembered fondly YEARS from now), as well as giving fans small bones in Chrom and Dark Samus. I feel the roster truly has something for everybody. Also the stages while we only have 4 new ones, all look fantastic.
 
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#55
I saw some people on GameFAQ a while back try to claim Bowser is too big for Smash saying he is less deserving of a spot on the roster than Ridley for this reason. Those people used screenshots of the Bowser's final form in NSMBW and NSMBU like these ones to compare his size to Mario as their argument.

 

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#56
"I don't recognize Yoshi having his own series apart from Mario"

Sakurai doesn't agree with you there...
To expand on this;
"Wario, Yoshi and DK are Mario characters"

DK and Wario don't even put in regular appearances in the Mario main series. Heck has DK ever made an appearance in a mainline Mario title?
Yoshi does put regular appearances in but has also clearly separated himself from Mario with his range of island and craft based platformers.

Luigi has also sold plenty of titles on his own to make it into Nintendo's top 20 series sellers with Mansion and U, but that's obviously far more of a blurred line as he is one half of the Super Mario BROS. Series.]
 
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AIM0001

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#57
1. Smash Ultimate is a Smash 4 port.
2. Bandana Dee belongs in Smash.
3. Waluigi will still be playable.
4. Box/Card theory. I still don’t buy it that Inceneroar and Ken are the last characters for the base game.
5. Smash Ultimate won’t have DLC characters and stages.
 
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#58
I totally agree with you on that ! Melee hardcore fans are such a pain in the *** ! If they love it, it's fine ! But don't let your notsalgia alters your judgement. Melee is not the best Smash and it's content is not the most well-developed. Hell, there are so many bugs in Melee, more than in Brawl and Sm4sh.
Melee certainly has the most viewership of any Smash game. Smash 4 doesn't even compete with its viewership and I'm a Smash 4 player. Casually, Smash 4 might be better (lack of single player mode really hurts) but casuals always move on to the next game so the contextual argument isn't directed at casual players.

Hardcore Smashers will objectively say Melee is the better game for competitive play (which it is; viewership + entrants supports this). A lot of people don't even play with items on and rarely play the casual content Smash brings so they are rightfully entitled in saying Melee is the best Smash game. They're talking about competitive play. Competitive players doesn't even consider casual play when they rate the Smash games because the crowd and fans they have care mostly about the competitive aspects.

People need to understand the context about these things before hastily making assumptions. Brawl is by far the worst Smash game competitively while probably being the best Smash game casually. Its really not hard to grasp the concept of people playing smash entirely different then others. Competitive players will rate Smash on it's competitive merit not it's casual merit because they rarely ever touch the casual aspect seriously. Casuals are free to say Melee is not the best Smash game as well but it should be a given that when someone says Melee is the best smash game; they're 99% a competitive player; not casual. Smash Ultimate and Smash 4 are fun casual games a melee player would say and they wouldn't be wrong.

Smash 4 viewership has already declined and is going to be a dead game once Ultimate comes. Melee, however will live on. That's just reality. Melee lives on because their is a massive market for competitive Smash. Its really simple. Competitive Smash and casual smash are practically separate realities of the game, so there really should be no reason why people get upset because the reasons a person would give for melee wlll have a casual clueless. I don't really care for the casual content so you would only be speaking to the choir if you lists casual/ single player content as to why Brawl / Smash 4 is better.

tl:dr Stop talking about people who say melee is the best Smash game because 9 .5 / 10 times they are solely referring about the competitive aspects which for a lot of people is the only Smash they play. A competitive and a casual looks at Smash entirely different so it's pointless to bring up melee players saying melee is the best. Why do you think their is a further emphasis on competitive aspects in Ultimate. Their is a massive market for competitive smash.
 

The DanMan051

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#59
You've played Ultimate? But the gameplay experience is completely different based on footage and word from the people who've played it. I mean pros like Zero who've played smash 4 for hours everyday have said the game feels different than smash 4. And you're saying Ultimate lacks new content when Sakurai hasn't even finished talking about what else the game has to offer. We still have more characters, stages, and that hidden mode that we have no information on. Every returning character has been altered and every stage from past games has been changed to suit the new gamplay or it's undergone enhancements in aesthetic. All of these things say that this is a new game. Just because assets have been reused doesn't discredit the game from being new. What's important is the end result. The final product.
No, but Monster Hunter Generations also had new gameplay features and tweaks-- but also only a single new area and half a dozen new monsters, instead focusing on remastering older areas and bringing back older monsters.

The box theory's looking likely, Sakurai himself said they're slowing down on reveals-- even without that, 15-17 mostly unique newcomers isn't something with even a remote chance of happening at base.

I never said it wasn't a new game-- but it's heavily focused on bringing back and repackaging old content while every other Smash title focused on new characters and stages. Heck, even the name-- Special/Ultimate --follows the conventions you see for re-releases (Warriors Orochi 3 Special, Monster Hunter 3/4/Generations Ultimate). Even with the mechanical updates and differences, it's still got 97 old stages to 6 new ones and only 5 unique newcomers so far with only one more looking very likely. Classic Mode is a step backwards from the 3DS version's and Smash Down/Squad Strike aren't something that'll see much use from primarily solo players (like me). Spirits Mode is the only big unrevealed mode, and unless it's as meaty as the SSE minus cutscenes I'm not going to be super impressed (it'll be kinda neat, but not a gamechanger).

Thus, I find it to feel less like an actually new title (the way there's a clear content progression between every other Smash game prior) and more of a celebration title, likely done before the series reboots itself.
 
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UserKev

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#60
I totally agree with you on that ! Melee hardcore fans are such a pain in the *** ! If they love it, it's fine ! But don't let your notsalgia alters your judgement. Melee is not the best Smash and it's content is not the most well-developed. Hell, there are so many bugs in Melee, more than in Brawl and Sm4sh.
I'm not on that competitive play ** but I'm kind of immense in the "Melee effect." Melee has the perfect intro, soundtrack, stages, peak Events Match and great first impression modes. Melee is flawed, yes, but it also did a grew job with the elements it brought to the series.

I consider Brawl the messiest in stages, hit sounds and the levels of Subspace disaster.
 

Sin Slash

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#62
"Dark Samus doesn't have any defining traits, other than being a carbon copy of Samus" - Someone who has obviously never played a Metroid Prime game.

I know Metroid Prime isn't one of the most popular games in existence, but people should at least know what Dark Samus is and how it combats Samus, making the only thing it shares is a similar appearance to her suit. The fact that DS is now an echo sure doesn't help with that, though.
 

MasterOfKnees

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#63
What trap? He was too big that's why he shrunk him?

Anyway there have been many, I'll go with people that actually argue for Goku to appear.
The trap I was referring to was Sakurai himself agreeing that Ridley was too big. Maybe trap wasn't the right word, but that happens when English is a second language of mine and I try to use colorful language :p.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#64
Does "Too Big" count? Because having to deal with that for so many years, including from the game's developer, was such a pain. Even now there are people who stick by it and say that Ridley doesn't feel like Ridley in Ultimate, despite the lengths the Smash team has gone through to nail his personality. I feel like a lot of people have misinterpreted the character as being just another big beast Samus has to blow up, and although I can't fault them for not having read the manga (which is a huge inspiration for Ultimate's Ridley) it's still so frustrating when people take a hard stance on something they're not educated on.

I have no idea how Sakurai himself fell into the trap as well, I have always admitted Ridley would be difficult to put into Smash because of his proportions and would have understood that argument better, but to suggest that Ridley would no longer be Ridley if he wasn't big and couldn't fly forever was so disappointing coming from him. Ironically now that he's in he's neither the biggest character in the game or the one with the most jumps, in fact his recovery is one of his clear weaknesses.

The amount of times I've had to explain Ridley's core characteristics, including on the ballot, has been so draining, I'm extremely happy I've likely done so for the last time. The people who still stick by the argument aren't worth explaining it to, because at this point it has more to do with how they don't want to admit that they were wrong than anything else.

Maybe not the most ridiculous argument out there, but certainly the most frustrating given the amount of traction it got.
I was honestly part of the lot that thought he was too big, but I was never opposed to any kind of implementation. I spoke based on my observations for other fighting games were big characters had to be designed to be OP so as to not be hindered by their huge hurtbox. Examples are Gold Lightan and the big mech suit from Tatsunoko vs Capcom, Ryoho from Bloody Roar 4 and Feral Chaos from Dissidia. Those guys weren't exactly fun to play against because most of them had armor against almost every move and they could easily overpower you with their sheer damage output and large hitboxes on their moves, and in the case of Feral Chaos, stagger you on block with almost every attack.

I was happy when they announced him though. I'm not surprised to see that they shrunk him down to avoid having to deal with the issues I mentioned above, and he looks a bit weird when compared to his previous Smash incarnations, but that's an acceptable sacrifice for the sake of having him playable. Honestly, screw the purists saying that he shouldn't have been added for being too small now, as if not being playable at all was the better alternative.
 

Tollhouse

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#65
No, but Monster Hunter Generations also had new gameplay features and tweaks-- but also only a single new area and half a dozen new monsters, instead focusing on remastering older areas and bringing back older monsters.

The box theory's looking likely, Sakurai himself said they're slowing down on reveals-- even without that, 15-17 mostly unique newcomers isn't something with even a remote chance of happening at base.

I never said it wasn't a new game-- but it's heavily focused on bringing back and repackaging old content while every other Smash title focused on new characters and stages. Heck, even the name-- Special/Ultimate --follows the conventions you see for re-releases (Warriors Orochi 3 Special, Monster Hunter 3/4/Generations Ultimate). Even with the mechanical updates and differences, it's still got 97 old stages to 6 new ones and only 5 unique newcomers so far with only one more looking very likely. Classic Mode is a step backwards from the 3DS version's and Smash Down/Squad Strike aren't something that'll see much use from primarily solo players (like me). Spirits Mode is the only big unrevealed mode, and unless it's as meaty as the SSE minus cutscenes I'm not going to be super impressed (it'll be kinda neat, but not a gamechanger).

Thus, I find it to feel less like an actually new title (the way there's a clear content progression between every other Smash game prior) and more of a celebration title, likely done before the series reboots itself.
What's the definition of a celebration game exactly? If it's self explanatory, why can't Ultimate be considered both new and a celebration game?

And again, there is still a lot we don't know about this game. I don't think it's fair to judge this game's roster with a theory that someone came up with in five minutes just from looking at a box. I don't think Sakurai would be that careless to give away his roster count keeping in mind all the trouble he took to keep "everyone is here" a secret. The guy is pretty serious about his games' secrets.

Even if the newcomers are lacking, there is still so much change to the rest of the roster that the game will feel fresh. That's why I said it's frustrating when people complain about the lesser amount of newcomers and wine about everyone coming back because they feel they were copied and pasted in.
 

HypnoMaster372

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#67
"Sakurai is saving Waluigi for last. He's only showing Waluigi as an assist trophy to throw people off".

This really needs to die. Wait until the next game folks.
It really make it worse when you see people who seem to be completely oblivious to Waluigi being a AT once again. Like, I get that not everyone is aware of everything revealed but it just sad to see a person who is either completely unaware or isn’t accepting reality.

It just sad :(.
 
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#68
It really make it worse when you see people who seem to be completely oblivious to Waluigi being a AT once again. Like, I get that not everyone is aware of everything revealed but it just sad to see a person who is either completely unaware or isn’t accepting reality.

It just sad :(.
Like I don't even see Shovel Knight fans being this persistent...:glare:
 
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#70
I might be a little biased, but...

The "Too many Fire Emblem characters/reps" argument doesn't really hold up all that well. Super Smash Bros. is a game about Nintendo's All-Stars (and then some). If more people happen to like Fire Emblem's characters more than they do with say, the Donkey Kong or Kirby series, then it's only natural that there would be more FE characters than the recently mentioned.

Same goes for the "Too many swordfighters" argument. There's no such thing as "representatives" in the Super Smash Bros. series, so there's really no need to include a random no-name lance user for the sake of variety. Relevance is important, as is popularity.
The thing is though that people don’t request or want FE characters more than characters from DK, Kirby, Metroid, Zelda, or even Mario, Pokemon, and Xenoblade.

That’s mine I suppose, any argument that FE isn’t over represented I completely disagree with; that doesn’t mean that I absolutely hate the FE characters (I actually like several of them), but trying to say that FE is deserving of more characters than other series with vastly bigger, far less niche franchises, and have characters that are far more wanted and that would bring a ton to the table, is just objectively wrong, at least in my book.
 

Calamitas

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#71
"Rex and Pyra can make it into the base roster of Ultimate! If their designs were already finalized when Sakurai made the project plan, that's enough! Just look at Greninja!"

Which completely ignores that Greninja is just one Pokémon out of many, and not majorly important to X and Y in way beyond being a starter. Those two meanwhile are the protagonists of a large-scale JRPG with a heavy focus on a pretty bad story and a battle system that's entirely distinct from both previous entries in the series. Not to mention that the voice actress of Pyra has already long since denied that she hasn't done any work for Ultimate.

. . .For that matter, I'd also consider wanting those two in the first place to be ridicilous, but let's not go there.
 

Luigifan18

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#72
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Frizz

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#73
The thing is though that people don’t request or want FE characters more than characters from DK, Kirby, Metroid, Zelda, or even Mario, Pokemon, and Xenoblade.

That’s mine I suppose, any argument that FE isn’t over represented I completely disagree with; that doesn’t mean that I absolutely hate the FE characters (I actually like several of them), but trying to say that FE is deserving of more characters than other series with vastly bigger, far less niche franchises, and have characters that are far more wanted and that would bring a ton to the table, is just objectively wrong, at least in my book.
You have a point, but the amount of backlash FE (and swordfighters) get from the Smash community alone is insane. Some people who haven't touched a Fire Emblem game make the decision to completely loathe and despise most, if not all, of the FE characters in Super Smash Bros. and FE franchise in general, simply because they believe that there's too much of them or even that too many of them use swords, which I strongly feel is unjust.

Even if an FE character happens to get in over a well-requested character such as first parties like Skull Kid and Dixie Kong, or third parties like Geno and Banjo and Kazooie, it's not the end of the world. Sakurai has his reasons for including them into the game, whether it be popularity (Chrom, Roy) or uniqueness (Robin), or even to promote their upcoming game (Melee Roy, Smash 4 Corrin), and for the most part, they're pretty valid. Even when he decided to give Lucina her own slot at the last minute instead of as a Marth alt. FE is heavily character based, so they introduce new main characters every installment, which gives new material for Sakurai to work with. Take Edelgard from the upcoming Fire Emblem: Three Houses for example. There's talk of her having a shot of making into the game as DLC, purely because she can bring something new to the table—with her being an axe wielder and her potentially having more that of which is yet to be revealed—and that she can be used to promote the new game.

But don't get me wrong—I agree with the notion that there should definitely be more characters in other franchises (namely LoZ and Kirby) before Fire Emblem gets any more newcomers. They have a generous amount of characters in the game as is, and I honestly don't see the need to include anymore. Were it not for the "Everyone is here!" selling point, rest assured that FE would be seeing some cuts. Come around Smash 6, I'm almost certain that we won't be getting as much Fire Emblem characters as we have now.
 

Luigifan18

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#74
Crazy Hand 2001 Crazy Hand 2001 is a big bundle of ridiculous who just will not shut up, and the Nintendo-Online-bashing thread he made has devolved into a farce due to his stubborn insistence that everybody needs to loathe Nintendo agree with him and refuse to pay for Nintendo's online services. I do agree that it's questionable whether or not Nintendo Switch Online is worth the cost (I think it is, considering the NES library and smartphone connectivity), but he acts like his opinion is the only one that matters, which is not okay.
 
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#75
You have a point, but the amount of backlash FE (and swordfighters) get from the Smash community alone is insane. Some people who haven't touched a Fire Emblem game make the decision to completely loathe and despise most, if not all, of the FE characters in Super Smash Bros. and FE franchise in general, simply because they believe that there's too much of them or even that too many of them use swords, which I strongly feel is unjust.

Even if an FE character happens to get in over a well-requested character such as first parties like Skull Kid and Dixie Kong, or third parties like Geno and Banjo and Kazooie, it's not the end of the world. Sakurai has his reasons for including them into the game, whether it be popularity (Chrom, Roy) or uniqueness (Robin), or even to promote their upcoming game (Melee Roy, Smash 4 Corrin), and for the most part, they're pretty valid. Even when he decided to give Lucina her own slot at the last minute instead of as a Marth alt. FE is heavily character based, so they introduce new main characters every installment, which gives new material for Sakurai to work with. Take Edelgard from the upcoming Fire Emblem: Three Houses for example. There's talk of her having a shot of making into the game as DLC, purely because she can bring something new to the table—with her being an axe wielder and her potentially having more that of which is yet to be revealed—and that she can be used to promote the new game.

But don't get me wrong—I agree with the notion that there should definitely be more characters in other franchises (namely LoZ and Kirby) before Fire Emblem gets any more newcomers. They have a generous amount of characters in the game as is, and I honestly don't see the need to include anymore. Were it not for the "Everyone is here!" selling point, rest assured that FE would be seeing some cuts. Come around Smash 6, I'm almost certain that we won't be getting as much Fire Emblem characters as we have now.
Yeah I do agree that the series does get too much hate overall. I hope I didn’t come off as a huge FE hater, because, even though I have no personal connection to the series at all, I do actually really like some of the characters in the game now, namely Roy and Ike. Thanks for being cool about it

Another one I thought of, I completely disagree with anyone who says DK characters (and to a lesser extent Wario and Yoshi) are just extensions of the Mario universe. DK has very clearly differentiated itself from the main Mario series completely, and his appearances in Mario spin-offs are just that- appearances. If you really want to get technical, Mario did, in fact, originate in a DK game. If anything, Mario is just a spin-off of DK (obviously I don’t actually think that but for the sake of making a point).

I mean, Cloud and Sephiroth make cameos in Kingdom Hearts, yet nobody in their right minds would ever say Kingdom Hearts is a spin-off of FF. How is this any different?
 

Luigifan18

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#76
Um... what? Kingdom Hearts is a Final Fantasy spin-off. The whole premise is "Final Fantasy meets Disney properties".
 

The DanMan051

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#77
"Rex and Pyra can make it into the base roster of Ultimate! If their designs were already finalized when Sakurai made the project plan, that's enough! Just look at Greninja!"

Which completely ignores that Greninja is just one Pokémon out of many, and not majorly important to X and Y in way beyond being a starter. Those two meanwhile are the protagonists of a large-scale JRPG with a heavy focus on a pretty bad story and a battle system that's entirely distinct from both previous entries in the series. Not to mention that the voice actress of Pyra has already long since denied that she hasn't done any work for Ultimate.

. . .For that matter, I'd also consider wanting those two in the first place to be ridicilous, but let's not go there.
Xenoblade 2 itself entered the concept stages in late 2014 and began development as X was winding down (quarter 2 2015), with their designs being finalized in April 2016. If the initial project plan had been after Sakurai's break instead of before, they'd probably be complete locks for the base game instead of DLC. As-is, I'm just glad that either or both of my most wanteds (Rex and Monster Hunter) are super likely as DLC (MH is already in the door with a "stage" and the first boss/AT combo in series history).

You have a point, but the amount of backlash FE (and swordfighters) get from the Smash community alone is insane. Some people who haven't touched a Fire Emblem game make the decision to completely loathe and despise most, if not all, of the FE characters in Super Smash Bros. and FE franchise in general, simply because they believe that there's too much of them or even that too many of them use swords, which I strongly feel is unjust.

Even if an FE character happens to get in over a well-requested character such as first parties like Skull Kid and Dixie Kong, or third parties like Geno and Banjo and Kazooie, it's not the end of the world. Sakurai has his reasons for including them into the game, whether it be popularity (Chrom, Roy) or uniqueness (Robin), or even to promote their upcoming game (Melee Roy, Smash 4 Corrin), and for the most part, they're pretty valid. Even when he decided to give Lucina her own slot at the last minute instead of as a Marth alt. FE is heavily character based, so they introduce new main characters every installment, which gives new material for Sakurai to work with. Take Edelgard from the upcoming Fire Emblem: Three Houses for example. There's talk of her having a shot of making into the game as DLC, purely because she can bring something new to the table—with her being an axe wielder and her potentially having more that of which is yet to be revealed—and that she can be used to promote the new game.

But don't get me wrong—I agree with the notion that there should definitely be more characters in other franchises (namely LoZ and Kirby) before Fire Emblem gets any more newcomers. They have a generous amount of characters in the game as is, and I honestly don't see the need to include anymore. Were it not for the "Everyone is here!" selling point, rest assured that FE would be seeing some cuts. Come around Smash 6, I'm almost certain that we won't be getting as much Fire Emblem characters as we have now.
Something people seem to overlook here: FE's roster is basically half clones here. If they were to reboot Smash, chances are Marth, Ike, and Robin would stick around... and then they could build Roy off of Marth and re-implement Lucina and Chrom more easily than implementing a unique character. What it really comes down to, for me, is people overrating Echo Fighters-- they're glorified alts (with Chrom having a single different move from Roy built off of Ike's up-special). If you break it down, the series has 4 unique characters and a semi-clone.

Of course, I have nothing against anybody wanting characters from other series in; I do as well.

Um... what? Kingdom Hearts is a Final Fantasy spin-off. The whole premise is "Final Fantasy meets Disney properties".
It's an original IP made and co-owned with Disney that uses characters and settings from Disney animation and select Final Fantasy characters; however, the Final Fantasy characters are more cameos, and the last one was Zack in Birth By Sleep-- which was released in 2010. Nomura himself more recently confirmed the FF characters were simply there as a "crutch" of sorts to attract those fans and that they were deliberately phased out as time went on; the only thing the games having connecting them to FF at this point is the spell naming convention. Hell, the focus at this point is pretty much entirely on original characters (with interpretations of select Disney characters in the supporting cast).
 
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#78
Um... what? Kingdom Hearts is a Final Fantasy spin-off. The whole premise is "Final Fantasy meets Disney properties".
Forgive me if I’m wrong but I really don’t think that’s the case, if that were true then I’d think Cloud would be the main character as opposed to a newly designed character just for the spin-off

Edit: :ultgreninja: ‘d
 
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Penroze

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#79
One of the worst Smash arguments I've ever heard: 'Banjo and Kazooie shouldn't be in Smash because no one cares about them anymore.'

Hey remember when Mega Man had been completely dead for like six years but they put him in Smash anyway?
Hey remember when Wii Fit Trainer got in? Yeah everyone cared about her
Psh no one cares about Simon Belmont why would he get in lol
 

Frizz

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#80
Yeah I do agree that the series does get too much hate overall. I hope I didn’t come off as a huge FE hater, because, even though I have no personal connection to the series at all, I do actually really like some of the characters in the game now, namely Roy and Ike. Thanks for being cool about it
I mean, I have to thank you as well. I'm not really all that good in arguments, so I can get kind of discouraged when someone aggressively argues against me. You didn't do that however, so I appreciate how we can have a civil discussion over this. Once again, thanks.
Another one I thought of, I completely disagree with anyone who says DK characters (and to a lesser extent Wario and Yoshi) are just extensions of the Mario universe. DK has very clearly differentiated itself from the main Mario series completely, and his appearances in Mario spin-offs are just that- appearances. If you really want to get technical, Mario did, in fact, originate in a DK game. If anything, Mario is just a spin-off of DK (obviously I don’t actually think that but for the sake of making a point).

I mean, Cloud and Sephiroth make cameos in Kingdom Hearts, yet nobody in their right minds would ever say Kingdom Hearts is a spin-off of FF. How is this any different?
I can understand why you think that. And it's pretty valid reasoning.

Donkey Kong first appeared in the Donkey Kong arcade game, and he branched off into the Donkey Kong series, like Donkey Kong Country.

Wario's first appearance was in Super Mario Land 2, and since then he's had two series with multiple games. He's had some appearances in Mario spin-offs here and there, but he doesn't really appear in Mario games like the 2D Super Mario Bros. franchise or the 3D Super Mario franchise.

Yoshi's a bit trickier. He usually appears in 2D Super Mario Bros. games as a "power-up", and he even appears in 3D Super Mario Bros. games (64, Sunshine, Galaxy, not sure about Odyssey) too. He has his own franchise, but he still plays a role in the Super Mario franchise as well.

In the end, I'd consider them all Mario characters, since they most likely live in the same world/universe, but they could also at the same time be their own franchise's character.

Something people seem to overlook here: FE's roster is basically half clones here. If they were to reboot Smash, chances are Marth, Ike, and Robin would stick around... and then they could build Roy off of Marth and re-implement Lucina and Chrom more easily than implementing a unique character. What it really comes down to, for me, is people overrating Echo Fighters-- they're glorified alts (with Chrom having a single different move from Roy built off of Ike's up-special). If you break it down, the series has 4 unique characters and a semi-clone.

Of course, I have nothing against anybody wanting characters from other series in; I do as well.
That's also understandable. The point I have to make about this is that the characters who have their moveset derived from Marth in some way are mainly popularity characters. Roy and Chrom definitely fit the case, but as for Lucina, she was a last minute addition meant to be a Marth alt, so there really wasn't a way for her to have her own moveset. I imagine that they don't want to spend as much time working on making a popular character completely original when they could use a preexisting moveset and work off that, hence Roy and Chrom being semi-clones. I'd definitely like to see them get further de-cloned since there's so much that they could work with, but the developers are already doing a lot of work in Ultimate, so de-cloning is probably low priority right now, especially since they have a deadline that they're most likely going to meet.

About Echo Fighters, someone here made a rather funny and true point about them. They said something about how before Echo Fighters were announced, people use to hate clones for all they're worth, but once it was revealed that they took up no time and therefore no spot, just about everybody was okay with the idea of them in Smash. I personally don't really have a problem with them since, as previously stated, they take up virtually no time, and they're a way to include another popular character without taking up the original's limited amount of alternate costumes. There's also the option of merging Echo Fighters with their original fighter on the CSS if you see them more as a glorified alt than as an individual fighter.
 
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