Rogue Pit
Smash Lord
I understand that but your thinking arrows are all my game, i approach, actually i love to and when you'd float with nair id be right there to punish ending lag.
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Weekly Character Discussion: Pit
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
- Status
kown
Smash Lord
arrows are too good..... lol just cuz they were good in March doesnt mean they are bad now. lol the fact that ppl have to PS or airdodge is just another opening for pit to attack or grab.
Isnt Dr.X your dubz parter.. im pretty sure he wingdashes and ive seen him use it effectively.
so it definitely isnt uselss by any means.
yes it is your opinion but its wrong... and when you say that i feel like you havent played someone who uses it correctly since pit is the NOOBISH and abused char in the game that noobs can pick up. im guessing u played a noob.
kown
Smash Lord
how is it wasting time?? it onylgets him introuble becuase he is using it wrong in those situations.... i cant really see how it makes him in trouble either?
I have this vision one day a Pit player will emerge that can somehow fight normally and maintain 4 looping arrows at the same time, because he had his corpus callosum cut or something, and will start winning all the tournaments.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
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- 21,181
Every time you wingdash, there is a better option.
The simple fact that everyone here has tried to defend Pit by proclaiming how awesome all these ATs are and NO ONE is saying "Gee, maybe he's right? Pit has this and this and this.... maybe we should try to find other stuff to do in these situations" proves the point to me. :\
Sorry, Pit.
NxC
Smash Apprentice
Well done, SBR. I'd say you hit the nail on the head, though it may have been done with a screwdriver. While the points made were very valid, I'm seeing a lot of remarks that are typically made from people who are playing against uninformed Pit players. However, before I get too far I'd like to mention something to the Pit community and remind them of something:
This is the Smash Back Room. These people know their ****. They are good players who play against other good players and know what they're talking about. Treat their posts with a bit of respect; they aren't scrubs. This does not necessarily mean "agree". It's a common misconception that the two go hand in hand, but they do not. You can respectfully disagree, which is what I'm about to do.
That being said, here's my review.
Kupo made a rather valid point when he said that there was too much talk of the arrows. I completely understand that a large portion of the discussion is obligated to include his projectile, since it is inarguably among the best projectiles in the game. While it may not be the best, it does have unparalleled control tied with it, something that many projectiles lack, and a fair level of power, too. However one should keep in mind that arrows are just one of Pit's moves. His most notable/distinct? Absolutely. His best? Not by a long shot. [/pun]
Let's talk about his camping game. Overswarm made some semi-solid points that spamming doesn't work on everyone- you can airdodge, powershield, spotdodge... any number of standard blocking options are available. If you're fortunate enough to be playing a character with a reflector, all the better. However, consider the following fact: It takes Ganondorf 4.2 seconds to walk from one end of Final Destination to the other. Why do I bring this up, you ask? All things considered, this is the slowest possible "constant" approach. With dance-stalling, Pit can hold an arrow shot for an impressive 5.2 seconds. If you need longer, you can have it- 5.8 second stalls can be achieved with vertical-tilt stalling. Also consider the fact that the number of frames that transpire as pit's arrows go from one end of final destination to the other can probably be counted on your fingers.
What am I getting at with this? No matter what approach you're using,except meta knight's infinite vanish, You are never completely invincible. There are frames where you can get hit before performing another evasive maneuver. If you anticipate the release of an arrow incorrectly, you WILL be punished for it. Any good Pit knows the effectiveness of suddenly stalling a constant volly of arrows by even a quarter of a second. Even with stale move negation, Pit's camping game is certainly better than "10%", as Overswarm mentioned.
Regardless of how many arrows make contact, your opponent will be faced with one of two options: countercamp or approach. The first response certainly has a limited lifespan, so the choice is obvious. Eventually your opponent will reach you. Not much was said for Pit's response to an approach, which certainly doesn't do the character justice.
Pit is fast. He's no Sonic the Edgehog but he isn't slow. WoI can accelerate him across the ground for two seconds before canceling. Pit's easy to time H-smash is another option that is not to be ignored, as it is faster than his run speed. RAR arrow shots are another option, and my personal favorite. Whatever your choice is, combined with timing mindgames, and perhaps with some of Pit's arrow-based ATs, you can certainly put your opponent through a loop. [/pun] Pit's arrows can be negated, yes, but I hardly feel this is a high-power argument against Pit, since I'm fairly sure there's a handful of other projectiles that can be nerfed in a similar manner.
While I'm on the topic of camping, Pit's counter-camping game wasn't touched at all, though it is mostly surface level stuff.
The mirror shield prevents most projectile camping attempts, including properly cooked grenades from snake. However, a short-hopped shield approach is rather threatening as well. As long as you are aware of the possibility of grabs and distance yourself appropriately, Pit is neigh un-campable. Combined with his ability to pressure opponents into approaching, Pit practically holds the reigns of the flow of a battle.
His most glaring weakness, as mentioned thoroughly, is how his recovery can be gimped when it comes down to his up-b option. This is well countered by both the skill of the Pit player him/herself as well as the option of just going under the course for defense. One should be cautious when doing this, though, as Overswarm himself taught me when I was up against his ROB- you aren't ever invincible, and you should always be aware of what your opponent can/will/is doing.
On to the topic of Pit's ATs. Most of the time, they are gimmicky. Most of the time, they provide no direct advantage when performed to their fullest extent. And, unfortunately, most of the time the Pit boards clings to them with all they have. Seriously guys, they're fun, but give it up already. How many times has [insert tech here] been THE deciding factor in a victory of yours?
While the ATs themselves are extremely situational, they can be useful in those situations. It's up to the player to know the situations and use these techniques properly for an advantage, however minimal it may be. If used inappropriately, well... ...Dr. X. If you keep using a technique over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, you will EVENTUALLY run into a situation where it will be useful. One must recognize, however, the useful to unuseful ratio.
In closing, while I feel this was a partially inaccurate review of Pit, I completely understand why when the majority of the Pit boards acts like the above posts.
This is the Smash Back Room. These people know their ****. They are good players who play against other good players and know what they're talking about. Treat their posts with a bit of respect; they aren't scrubs. This does not necessarily mean "agree". It's a common misconception that the two go hand in hand, but they do not. You can respectfully disagree, which is what I'm about to do.
That being said, here's my review.
Kupo made a rather valid point when he said that there was too much talk of the arrows. I completely understand that a large portion of the discussion is obligated to include his projectile, since it is inarguably among the best projectiles in the game. While it may not be the best, it does have unparalleled control tied with it, something that many projectiles lack, and a fair level of power, too. However one should keep in mind that arrows are just one of Pit's moves. His most notable/distinct? Absolutely. His best? Not by a long shot. [/pun]
Let's talk about his camping game. Overswarm made some semi-solid points that spamming doesn't work on everyone- you can airdodge, powershield, spotdodge... any number of standard blocking options are available. If you're fortunate enough to be playing a character with a reflector, all the better. However, consider the following fact: It takes Ganondorf 4.2 seconds to walk from one end of Final Destination to the other. Why do I bring this up, you ask? All things considered, this is the slowest possible "constant" approach. With dance-stalling, Pit can hold an arrow shot for an impressive 5.2 seconds. If you need longer, you can have it- 5.8 second stalls can be achieved with vertical-tilt stalling. Also consider the fact that the number of frames that transpire as pit's arrows go from one end of final destination to the other can probably be counted on your fingers.
What am I getting at with this? No matter what approach you're using,
Regardless of how many arrows make contact, your opponent will be faced with one of two options: countercamp or approach. The first response certainly has a limited lifespan, so the choice is obvious. Eventually your opponent will reach you. Not much was said for Pit's response to an approach, which certainly doesn't do the character justice.
Pit is fast. He's no Sonic the Edgehog but he isn't slow. WoI can accelerate him across the ground for two seconds before canceling. Pit's easy to time H-smash is another option that is not to be ignored, as it is faster than his run speed. RAR arrow shots are another option, and my personal favorite. Whatever your choice is, combined with timing mindgames, and perhaps with some of Pit's arrow-based ATs, you can certainly put your opponent through a loop. [/pun] Pit's arrows can be negated, yes, but I hardly feel this is a high-power argument against Pit, since I'm fairly sure there's a handful of other projectiles that can be nerfed in a similar manner.
While I'm on the topic of camping, Pit's counter-camping game wasn't touched at all, though it is mostly surface level stuff.
The mirror shield prevents most projectile camping attempts, including properly cooked grenades from snake. However, a short-hopped shield approach is rather threatening as well. As long as you are aware of the possibility of grabs and distance yourself appropriately, Pit is neigh un-campable. Combined with his ability to pressure opponents into approaching, Pit practically holds the reigns of the flow of a battle.
His most glaring weakness, as mentioned thoroughly, is how his recovery can be gimped when it comes down to his up-b option. This is well countered by both the skill of the Pit player him/herself as well as the option of just going under the course for defense. One should be cautious when doing this, though, as Overswarm himself taught me when I was up against his ROB- you aren't ever invincible, and you should always be aware of what your opponent can/will/is doing.
On to the topic of Pit's ATs. Most of the time, they are gimmicky. Most of the time, they provide no direct advantage when performed to their fullest extent. And, unfortunately, most of the time the Pit boards clings to them with all they have. Seriously guys, they're fun, but give it up already. How many times has [insert tech here] been THE deciding factor in a victory of yours?
While the ATs themselves are extremely situational, they can be useful in those situations. It's up to the player to know the situations and use these techniques properly for an advantage, however minimal it may be. If used inappropriately, well... ...Dr. X. If you keep using a technique over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, you will EVENTUALLY run into a situation where it will be useful. One must recognize, however, the useful to unuseful ratio.
In closing, while I feel this was a partially inaccurate review of Pit, I completely understand why when the majority of the Pit boards acts like the above posts.
kown
Smash Lord
lol ur changing ur argument from saying wingdashing is punishable and wastes time to better options. (its almost the same thing but at the same time it isnt). thats also invalid because whats wrong with mixing it in? and since you never explained why it wastes time or why it is punishable than how can something that isnt punishable and doesnt waste time ever be a bad option?
OF COURSE we are trying to defend pit lol ur last paragraph is obvious. We are trying to prove to you that pit is good but u dont even stop to consider that. That is why we are discussing about this so that we can come to a mutual agreement...im not afraid to say im wrong and by all means try, but im going to defend him and if u do bring a valid point i will say im wrong but so far u ahvent really said anything that counters my statements to why"wingdashing is good"
EDIT: the pit players have on numerous occasions talked about whether the ATs are useful.... just look throughout the thread. Among the players that have agreed with the ATs are , me (Kown), Kupo, Undrdog, and Sagemoon. and thiers a lot more too.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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It's funny.
Pit's approach is average, but his shield pressure is pretty amazing.
Pit's approach is average, but his shield pressure is pretty amazing.
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
Like that'll ever happen, for trying to maintain the loops while fighting is risky considering that should you get hit at the wrong time, you might DI towards the direction that you were sent flying at, which might cost you a stock.
I even tried maintaining some arrows while trying to fight, and I find it a very difficult thing to perform.
Pit is considered to be a very versatile character, which he is. He has a little bit of everything, except obvious things. The few things that Pit is pretty good at is holding his own when camping, and good airgame.
As we have mentioned this many times, the BIG Flaw of the Up-B, and then his lack of KO power is what Pit has problems with.
I would have to say that Pit is somewhat technical, and does have a lot of options against basically any char, though some are harder than others. In my opinion, Pit would have a slightly harder time with the smaller chars mostly because it is hard to hit them, and you'll have a harder chance to perform small combos.
Back to his tech, there are easy ones and then hard ones, but that doesnt mean that you shouldnt practice them. Simply practice and not only will you get better at them, you'll also have extra options in battle.
I've mained him for 5 months, and I remember the time where I was learning about arrow looping, and arrow rain, which I am very attached to. Eventually I learned the other stuff like Wingdashing (many ppl still think it's useless...), Glideshifting, etc. Certain AT have bigger uses than others, like ppl hating Arrow Rain, but I use it for my benefits. AT arent required to use Pit at all, but they are simply to give you much more options in fighting. Use them well and you could perform things that you couldn't do without the ATs. There could be a lot of Mindgames when you use some the AT, like Wingdashing, good for mindgames, just like arrow looping itself.
You just gotta apply the tech correctly, practice, and you'll do good with it. That's how I got good with Arrow Rain, which was basically considered useless. As said before, I found a way to make it beneficial to me, and practice was the start of it.
Note: I was lazy when typing this, so should something be wrong, correct me.
CorruptFate
The Corrupted
I really hate to be the one saying this and see all you guys act like this. Did you really expect Pit to be alot better, noone really expected him to be top tier and get a review like MK or be low and get one like CF, he got what was comming. And to see all of you fighting to what looks like the death or until the point of demanding a new review is stupid. What they said is true, it might have come off as harsh, yes we hate it when all people say is we have arrows, so stop giving them a reason to say it. They aren't just saying things to say things they are saying things that they see. And i'm willing to bet that in the people who talk about this are playing better Pits then beginniers when they write it. And i hate to have to say all this to alot of people who are my buddies that seem sooooo on sided on this, save the passion for the election. Even kupo the one who found wingdashing says its "overused".
Arrow's arn't an all save, and we know that yet people are arguing and defending them like they are, when we were the first ones to say that they can be easy to avoid. I and many other Pits agree that wingdashing has alot more fame then it should, yes it is cool yes it is one of the hardest AT's to do in brawl, but look at the facts. If you wanta shield and approch then shield and approch you don't need some fancy short hop, up B, angle, dair to do the same thing you can do by running and hitting R.
The best use and only the real place for wingdashing that i have found is picking up items. Im sorry thats how it is I tried wingdashing when kupo first found it got good at it, it even helped me a few times, then when i took it out of my game I got better. But the risk vs reward is to high when for less risk, same reward you powershielding.
Arrow looping for the most part is just what they said a gimrick. you have no real added beinfit to arrow loop, shoot your arrow if it misses then sure try the loop, but its not as fast as just shooting another. Unless you do both, but that takes time better used for any of Pits other attacks. all of Pits attacks, save his AAA, have better knockback and damage. Here is a little story I have about me and arrow looping. Long ago in a time of brawl I played Pit against some noob at a tourny, all my buddy's started chearing for an arrow loop when i was ahead 2 stock. Then I thought the only time people cheer for somthing at a time like this is if its unneeded and just for looks. ex. in wresling when a crowd cheers for a chair the wresler could easily pin his opponent, but takes the extra effort/time to do somthing unneeded that gives his opponent more time to react and posable turn the match around.
Arrows are weak its a simple balance that they put into every game. I asume you have played halo, the best thing anyone could do is smack someone in the back. if they had switched that damage to give the smacks the guns lv of damage and the gun the smacks damage noone would ever hit they would all shoot. its a simple risk = reward. Yes they are one of the best projectiles in Brawl but that doens't mean that they are to high up.
they stated there oppion thats it. We wern't complaining about the other reviews we all thought they were dead on. But now when its our turn up to bat we say "these guys don't know ****" it doesn't work and you all know that.
Arrow's arn't an all save, and we know that yet people are arguing and defending them like they are, when we were the first ones to say that they can be easy to avoid. I and many other Pits agree that wingdashing has alot more fame then it should, yes it is cool yes it is one of the hardest AT's to do in brawl, but look at the facts. If you wanta shield and approch then shield and approch you don't need some fancy short hop, up B, angle, dair to do the same thing you can do by running and hitting R.
The best use and only the real place for wingdashing that i have found is picking up items. Im sorry thats how it is I tried wingdashing when kupo first found it got good at it, it even helped me a few times, then when i took it out of my game I got better. But the risk vs reward is to high when for less risk, same reward you powershielding.
Arrow looping for the most part is just what they said a gimrick. you have no real added beinfit to arrow loop, shoot your arrow if it misses then sure try the loop, but its not as fast as just shooting another. Unless you do both, but that takes time better used for any of Pits other attacks. all of Pits attacks, save his AAA, have better knockback and damage. Here is a little story I have about me and arrow looping. Long ago in a time of brawl I played Pit against some noob at a tourny, all my buddy's started chearing for an arrow loop when i was ahead 2 stock. Then I thought the only time people cheer for somthing at a time like this is if its unneeded and just for looks. ex. in wresling when a crowd cheers for a chair the wresler could easily pin his opponent, but takes the extra effort/time to do somthing unneeded that gives his opponent more time to react and posable turn the match around.
Arrows are weak its a simple balance that they put into every game. I asume you have played halo, the best thing anyone could do is smack someone in the back. if they had switched that damage to give the smacks the guns lv of damage and the gun the smacks damage noone would ever hit they would all shoot. its a simple risk = reward. Yes they are one of the best projectiles in Brawl but that doens't mean that they are to high up.
they stated there oppion thats it. We wern't complaining about the other reviews we all thought they were dead on. But now when its our turn up to bat we say "these guys don't know ****" it doesn't work and you all know that.
kupo15
Smash Hero
TBH, I was a little upset with what I saw in the last 15ish posts so Im trying to type this calmly and Im trying to look at this from both sides.
See, noone is mentioning the wind push effect you get combined with the forward or backwards motion. if someone is approaching you with a short hop aerial, using a wingdash will push then away giving them more hangtime then expected and thus leaving them open. Why would you do this instead of powershielding? Because the only thing you can do with a powershield is a grab. I cant to a smash if I wanted to especially if they are using a multihit move. And dont forget, the windpush is instant and unexpected.
I could be saying the same thing about the QAC. You can become predictable if abused. But the QAC can be effective when used sparingly. Same with wingdashing. You abuse it, your going to get punished. But if they arent expecting it, its a big surprise because it is so instant and there spacing becomes messed up.
The way I feel is that you (SBR) isnt giving our side enough thought for whatever reason. Its one thing to watch someone use it well and its another thing to have it used effectively against you. Im not saying your scrubs and that you dont know what your talking about (that would be dumb) but unless you have faced a Pit who
So are you saying if a Diddy player throws a banana peel in front of you the better option is to hinder your movement to pick it up? That it is better to do a running dash attack to pick it up? That being exposed by the lag from the dash attack is a better option then wingdashing backwards with a gust of wind pushing to throw off there spacing, timing and provide some protection? Or should you just leave it there to trip on it later down the line?
See, noone is mentioning the wind push effect you get combined with the forward or backwards motion. if someone is approaching you with a short hop aerial, using a wingdash will push then away giving them more hangtime then expected and thus leaving them open. Why would you do this instead of powershielding? Because the only thing you can do with a powershield is a grab. I cant to a smash if I wanted to especially if they are using a multihit move. And dont forget, the windpush is instant and unexpected.
I could be saying the same thing about the QAC. You can become predictable if abused. But the QAC can be effective when used sparingly. Same with wingdashing. You abuse it, your going to get punished. But if they arent expecting it, its a big surprise because it is so instant and there spacing becomes messed up.
Because he abuses it. Sorry Doc. Even Doc says he does it too much. Just because he is getting punished for it now doesnt mean he isnt learning when and how not to use it. Besides, I already admitted that it isnt godly OS. Being the founder of it that should be saying something. But there are uses for it. I think Id rather "waste time" then get hit with snakes tilts because it spaces me perfectly to not get them.
I have asked several ppl I have played against, friends and random ppl, and they say it is effective because its unexpected and fast. I won a tourney match wingdash>Fsmash as an example although this isnt obviously the only time it has worked.
The way I feel is that you (SBR) isnt giving our side enough thought for whatever reason. Its one thing to watch someone use it well and its another thing to have it used effectively against you. Im not saying your scrubs and that you dont know what your talking about (that would be dumb) but unless you have faced a Pit who
Oh ye of little faith. One day he will cometh, and rain down arrows on his opponent the entire match from above, interrupting their attacks, using them to cause enough stun to chain all of his attacks together in true combos, and making it impossible to come back from the edge. His handle will be split-brain, after the operation to cure his seizures gives him the ability to play Brawl like no other person ever has.
He will also be a very accomplished Ice Climbers secondary.
CorruptFate
The Corrupted
Good point but the same applies that a wingdash in that spot would allow you to keep moving and grab it.
kupo15
Smash Hero
That is not something I have thought about and it is a good point. One thing I can think about is you need to make sure you have stopped because you can still do a dash attack while letting go of the joystick. What did you think of my other points?
Ryanarius
Smash Journeyman
I generally agree with the review. He didn't say arrows were useless. He said they were mostly for positioning. Spamming them isn't going to get you more then 10 damage if your lucky but limiting your opponents options and forcing their position will get you damage.
I've been saying that wingdashing isn't really useful since it was found so no change there. @kupo winning a tournament match with it just isn't sufficient proof. I've seen tournament matches won by warlock punches that doesn't mean warlock punch should be considered a great ganon move now.
Glideattack as an edgegaurd isn't a great option. It can only attack one point and you have to be moving forward so its easily airdodged and without being able to cancel it you won't be able to follow it up effectively. I realize it was just an option to try to get pit's thinking differently so I don't really have any issue with that line.
The main thing that annoyed me was that the edgegaurd game wasn't given much attention. With arrows, a fair is fast enough to force an airdodge then punish the opponent when they come out it (generally with spacing the bair), multiple jumps, a recovery that is hard for most characters to gimp if he goes under the level (meaning that he doesn't have to conserve jumps or be very concerned about recovering against many characters so he can be very agressive off the edge) and his woi ledgestall which can be used to almost instantly refresh the ledge grab invincibility frames while pushing the opponent away making easy edge hogs pit has a strong edge game. I may be exaggerating but I also want to point out two of the best characters at gimping his recovery are rob and mk so you (you being overswarm seems to be the main backroom representative on this) may have a biased experience against pit.
Although saying his metagame has stagnated is a bit of a generalization I understand the point you were going for and as a lot of pits have basically stopped developing their effective metagame in favor of working to find a situation that wingdashing and other AT's are useful which has hurt the metagames development.
Beyond that I want to point out that they are just giving a quick review of pit in a couple paragraphs so they have to generalize. Sure a lot of things are useful on some maps, against some opponents or in some situations but you simply can't cover those in such a short review so you have to generalize.
I've been saying that wingdashing isn't really useful since it was found so no change there. @kupo winning a tournament match with it just isn't sufficient proof. I've seen tournament matches won by warlock punches that doesn't mean warlock punch should be considered a great ganon move now.
Glideattack as an edgegaurd isn't a great option. It can only attack one point and you have to be moving forward so its easily airdodged and without being able to cancel it you won't be able to follow it up effectively. I realize it was just an option to try to get pit's thinking differently so I don't really have any issue with that line.
The main thing that annoyed me was that the edgegaurd game wasn't given much attention. With arrows, a fair is fast enough to force an airdodge then punish the opponent when they come out it (generally with spacing the bair), multiple jumps, a recovery that is hard for most characters to gimp if he goes under the level (meaning that he doesn't have to conserve jumps or be very concerned about recovering against many characters so he can be very agressive off the edge) and his woi ledgestall which can be used to almost instantly refresh the ledge grab invincibility frames while pushing the opponent away making easy edge hogs pit has a strong edge game. I may be exaggerating but I also want to point out two of the best characters at gimping his recovery are rob and mk so you (you being overswarm seems to be the main backroom representative on this) may have a biased experience against pit.
Although saying his metagame has stagnated is a bit of a generalization I understand the point you were going for and as a lot of pits have basically stopped developing their effective metagame in favor of working to find a situation that wingdashing and other AT's are useful which has hurt the metagames development.
Beyond that I want to point out that they are just giving a quick review of pit in a couple paragraphs so they have to generalize. Sure a lot of things are useful on some maps, against some opponents or in some situations but you simply can't cover those in such a short review so you have to generalize.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Agreed Ryan. I was just trying to give OS an answer to his question and I picked a bad example.
Even though there are trying to sum things up generally, this is a discussion, right? Which is why I am trying to go deeper into there thinking etc..
Even though there are trying to sum things up generally, this is a discussion, right? Which is why I am trying to go deeper into there thinking etc..
Ryanarius
Smash Journeyman
I haven't tried that in a real match in quite a while. I assume the idea there is bait the airdodge with the possible glide attack then punish it. Seems to have some merit to it although the glide attack movement is pretty limiting in addition to be somewhat slow to start up.
Unless your at a somewhat odd position its no faster then jumping out there. I suppose it could save the jumps but your still only left with two jumps as opposed to wing refreshal (I forgot to mention wing refreshal in my edgegaurd rant) which allows three jumps, is faster in most situation and easier to position.
It is an underused option I'll give you that but nothing that will make all previous pit edgegaurding technique obsolete.
I think your only arguing that its an underused option and your right there it could be useful in some matchups.
Aminar
Smash Journeyman
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- Oct 31, 2006
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The lack of mention for wing renewal bugged me, Nobody, and I mean nobody can stay off the ledge like Pit can with Wing renewal. He can edeguard for longer than Metaknight, he's not better, but definitley longer. Combine that with pit's ledge game and you have raw amazing.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Yea, Im disappointed that everything about Pit wasnt discussed like ART and everything else and that my points in post 52 and 56 have been ignored.
Wingdashing, ART, Arrow looping is another way to approach. Not saying it should be the only way but its more options for mindgames.
Afro Boy2000
Smash Journeyman
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- Aug 5, 2007
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- 207
Ye I think Overswarm is biased against Pit. I see Pit as one of those characters thats gonna wreck everybody later down the line, thats cause he's not like all the top tier characters who seem to have "peeked to soon" in how good they could possibly ever get.
sagemoon
Smash Lord
Theres always uses for anything. Even if it's the most situational thing ever (unless you think that getting a kill as mario using fludd when the opponents shield braking is completely useless to attempt). Part of the game is knowing the situations
I respect your opinion, but I just dont think you have the right experience with pit. There are useless AT's I agree, but no one who has played me told me that wingdashing was pointless. They havent said "ZOMG THATS THE BEST THING EVER" but they have told me that it throws off their spacing or messed with THEIR game.
I think I should point out that wingdashing is commonly misinterpreted due to its name. The dash part is extremely situational for use, but the wind push is the best thing about it. It can stop metaknights dash attack and set up for a forward tilt. It can stop an aerial approach if done right. Also with the "craqwalk" (i hate that name too lol) you can gain a little on the hitbox.
I still disagree with you at the first part, but i strongly agree with the second part. Most people who main pit forget about basic play (DI, autocancelling, attack patterns, etc) and focus solely on trying to make the best out of the ATs. It seems like pit mains either goto the extremes, focusing on either just ATs or just the basic play (which basically will make them good with any character) And theres very few in between.
It's very good to know the basics, but most of pits strengths require a deep knowledge of pits game, including ATs (I for one think that arrow control is very important for pit)
I'm surprised this was left out too, It basically sets up for the best air mobility in the game while ledge guarding. I know pits ledge guarding game was mentioned, but i'm unsure if this was taken into account. It litterally means a pit player can float in one place, wait for an airdodge, then use any aerial to attack (or just attack if you're set up better for that) Not only that, but even if it fails, Pit has all his jumps so you can continue to pursue or just retreat back to the ledge in time.
Once again I know that the back room is filled with experienced players, but character specific forums generally know their character better (and back room players generally know the game better). I know there's not an active pit main in the back room (forward will probably pick up pit soon from what i hear though) but I think that the description is more based off observing the lower end players for pit than the higher end.
That's just my 2 cents.
Edit: Just to clarify, I think that the only extremely useful ATs for pit are Wing renewal, Arrow control (looping, aim etc) and Wingdashing (in that order). The rest are situational, but can be made good (style preference will determine whether or not to use those)
2nd Edit:
Thats probably a better way of explaining what i was trying to say. A bad player will commonly use (input AT here) at the wrong time. And it normally results in him getting punished. A great player will normally use it at the right time. And it normally sets him up to punish his opponent. It's not the technique itself thats bad, it's the player using it.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Sagemoon, I couldnt agree more
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
Sage knows his Angel facts, and yet I still am jealous that I dont got a combo vid yet...
For the Tech problem, it's like ppl thinking Arrow Rain is useless, but I found a use for it.
For the Tech problem, it's like ppl thinking Arrow Rain is useless, but I found a use for it.
Afro Boy2000
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2007
- Messages
- 207
Sagemoon is a genius.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
I find a bit of the BR discussion on this insulting and not to mention entirely false... I've beaten some of the people in here with Pit before, and those that I haven't I've at least come close. I think I've proven well enough that Pit should be taken seriously in the Midwest at least, so if Panda or OS want to say otherwise, well screw them.
sagemoon
Smash Lord
Dont get upset over an opinon. I did kinda find the summary posted a bit insulting as well, but it's nothing to get worked up over. Really in the end, the summary doesnt make up the character.
I'll just point out some things that are biased in the hint
"However, these things have yet to be used effectively enough by a Pit player to show that Pit can be as dangerous as other characters."
Aisengobay, Forward, Myself, Ryanarius are 4 ppl off the top of my head that has had tournament success
"a gutsy Pit player could start getting his KOs by glide attacking while his opponent is attempting to recover"
Glide attack doesnt have that much killing power, especially on fat characters. And the word "start" kind of confuses me there. I've gotten kills doing this to meta, I only really do it to characters that glide in, because pits glide out prioritizes his.
" for now Pit's game has become stagnant and filled primarily with gimmicky ATs such as arrow looping or wingdashing that have yet to really propel Pit's metagame. A push back to basics is primarily what this character needs to compete with the other characters that are filling the upper echelons."
Of the pit players I've talked about up there, 3 of them use arrow looping (forward said he was gonna pick it up like 2 weeks ago when i talked to him though). 3 of them use wing renewal (again forward said he was gonna pick it up). And 2 of them use wingdash (forward said it sounded like it could be cool, but idk if he will pick this one up, ryanarius said it just doesnt fit his style). I'm the only one that i know of that uses pivot sliding.
Point is, there are good players that are using "Gimmicky ATs" to improve their game. Doesnt mean it's spammed, but it is used. I guess that comment just stood out to me to be ignorant.
I'll just point out some things that are biased in the hint
"However, these things have yet to be used effectively enough by a Pit player to show that Pit can be as dangerous as other characters."
Aisengobay, Forward, Myself, Ryanarius are 4 ppl off the top of my head that has had tournament success
"a gutsy Pit player could start getting his KOs by glide attacking while his opponent is attempting to recover"
Glide attack doesnt have that much killing power, especially on fat characters. And the word "start" kind of confuses me there. I've gotten kills doing this to meta, I only really do it to characters that glide in, because pits glide out prioritizes his.
" for now Pit's game has become stagnant and filled primarily with gimmicky ATs such as arrow looping or wingdashing that have yet to really propel Pit's metagame. A push back to basics is primarily what this character needs to compete with the other characters that are filling the upper echelons."
Of the pit players I've talked about up there, 3 of them use arrow looping (forward said he was gonna pick it up like 2 weeks ago when i talked to him though). 3 of them use wing renewal (again forward said he was gonna pick it up). And 2 of them use wingdash (forward said it sounded like it could be cool, but idk if he will pick this one up, ryanarius said it just doesnt fit his style). I'm the only one that i know of that uses pivot sliding.
Point is, there are good players that are using "Gimmicky ATs" to improve their game. Doesnt mean it's spammed, but it is used. I guess that comment just stood out to me to be ignorant.
cj.Shark
Smash Ace
No taxation without representation!
lol??
SAGEMOON FOR SBR!!! woot
lol??
SAGEMOON FOR SBR!!! woot
Cha0tic NiGhTmArE
Smash Journeyman
hah first off pit is easy to pick up and play decent, but not pro.. and if you want to see a fantastic pit play look at Sagemoon.hes the ****
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
He's a char that's Somewhat easy to pickup, but hard to master, and since Pit has so much ATs, well not all of them are required, but some of them are basic and useful in being able to improve your playstyle depending on how you play.
Some of the ATs help with mindgames, that of which Wingdashing and Arrow looping can do, and they are basic Pit ATs
And yes, Sagemoon is the Pit to go to if you want to face a good one. I'm also a pretty good Pit, but between us 2 our styles are far different, but Sagemoon is better and the best Pit, I guarentee it. There are other Pits around the Pit boards to look for. You'll find them right away.
Some of the ATs help with mindgames, that of which Wingdashing and Arrow looping can do, and they are basic Pit ATs
And yes, Sagemoon is the Pit to go to if you want to face a good one. I'm also a pretty good Pit, but between us 2 our styles are far different, but Sagemoon is better and the best Pit, I guarentee it. There are other Pits around the Pit boards to look for. You'll find them right away.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
It's not so much what these guys have said that upsets me... more the fact that they had no input from anybody who actually plays Pit... Just a few guys whose only real exposure to the character is fighting me-- in the case of the MW-- and Sage-- in the case of the WC... and that's about it.
Plus I know OS personally and I feel like this "summary" is really more of a veiled shot at me than an actual evaluation of the character. I told him months ago that I thought that some of Pit's "gimmicky" AT's could be useful, and it's like he's got some kind of personal need to prove me wrong and has no problem ignoring simple facts in its persuit.
Funny how wingdash to fsmash and glide attack mindgames-- one of which he's convinced is entirely useless while the other he thinks Pit players need to "start" using-- in part led to not just one but two comebacks against Lain and Anther om doubles. Overswarm was *on* my team. I wonder if he was even paying attention. -.-
Plus I know OS personally and I feel like this "summary" is really more of a veiled shot at me than an actual evaluation of the character. I told him months ago that I thought that some of Pit's "gimmicky" AT's could be useful, and it's like he's got some kind of personal need to prove me wrong and has no problem ignoring simple facts in its persuit.
Funny how wingdash to fsmash and glide attack mindgames-- one of which he's convinced is entirely useless while the other he thinks Pit players need to "start" using-- in part led to not just one but two comebacks against Lain and Anther om doubles. Overswarm was *on* my team. I wonder if he was even paying attention. -.-
Apollo317
Smash Cadet
I just can't beleive the SBR said that at this point Pits best strategy is spamming arrows. I thought it was generaly accepted to be his worst...
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
SBR has no ideal of how good Pit is. Only the good Pits such as Me, Sagemoon, Kupo, Rogue Pit, Doctor X (havent faced him though), and basically the Pit forums can think of a like a hundred things better than just spamming arrows.
Cha0tic NiGhTmArE
Smash Journeyman
yeah i best step out im new to the tourney scene anyway so im in no position to give advice or critisize XD
I just watched a Florida tournament on ustream, and a guy I know only as "Danny" played Pit and never lost a set. I saw him go 0-2 against Snake in semifinals, and then come back with 3 victories to win the set thanks to incredible ledge play, just like you said.
In the finals, he went 0-2 against Meta Knight, and then again came back with 3 wins, to win the tournament. Not only did ledge camping work against Meta Knight, he got the occasionally KO with his upair, which shocked me. It sent MK flying off to the side to his doom. I was pretty happy that Pit won, but mostly amazed that he could make comebacks like he did. Also, on stages such as Smashville, he could easily Wings of Icarus and fly to the opposite edge, and Meta Knight never got a chance to stop that.
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
Pit's ledge play is simply amazing. So many options as mentioned.
Sadly, Pit's week is almost over, and he didnt recieve much respect... That kinda makes me sad. At least the other Pits care.
Sadly, Pit's week is almost over, and he didnt recieve much respect... That kinda makes me sad. At least the other Pits care.
Cha0tic NiGhTmArE
Smash Journeyman
*cries*as a fellow pit
kupo15
Smash Hero
Thats not the only type of ledge play Pit has and imo Danny makes it seem like thats the only way Pit can win tourneys. I wish the game didnt encourage campy playstyles. Pits can win by making there opponent feel like they really sucked hard to lose instead of being gayed to lose. I would like to see that strategy work against mew2king......
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