We need Wavedashing, we must take action to assure it

[Rash]

Meh. I think more time to think-through the next move can be more beneficial to the fighter than using that time to press a button. I'm sorry, but what goes on in the core of the mind during a match, in my opinion, outweighs the possible necessity of muscle-memory.

But, that's really why I just want to play Brawl. I want to see what the game is like to play, and to test out new angles on the battlefield.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

No no no no no no no and no. Just because YOU think it's easy, doesn't mean everyone else does. Even after trying to practice WDing and L-cancelling, I can do it maybe 1 out of every 20 times I try. It's NOT easy.

Can you do pikachus recovery (4 inputs)

Then you should be able to L cancel (1 input)

or wavedashing (3 inputs)

Jump, do an aerial attack (c stick prefearbly), press downwards, press L.

Thats shffling, the basis of advanced smash. same ammount of inputs as pikachus recovery and not hard if you break it down.

Hit L before you hit the ground.

Wavedashing is a little tricker but meh its muscle memory. It really shouldnt take more than 30-60 minutes to learn for life.

 

[Red_Maniac]

I said I wouldnt post in the brawl sections anymore but this doenst count because its mew2kings thread, and vindication for the ****ing hell scrubs continue to put me through by spamming my youtube/email/everything and sharing my personal information/pictures WITHOUT MY PERMISSION

that should be illegal. I bet it is, but theres no way to prosecute it.

Brawl sucks. Lets just all not play it competitivly and keep melee tourneys going. Scrubs are too ****ing stupid to organize tourneys if they cant even handle hitting L before they land, Im sorry.

Yeah, just don't quit melee please. Or the scrubs and money hungry wii suppliers win.

Since when have easy games EVER been good? I miss the NES days.

You've got to be kidding me.

Oh, sure... some of the advanced techniques and glitches are gone. Boo hoo.

I, along with many other people have said this: they'll probably be new techniques that you can find and use for Brawl.

It's not the end of the world. Brawl will not suck only because things like wavedashing is gone. Suck it up. It's a new game.

Brawl wasn't only created for tourney players and pros.

 

[BigRick]

No, it completly destroys the game of punishing missed cancels, which should always be a part of smash

''You missed a cancel, you're dead''

But you gotta agree that this part of Melee is one of the most shallow out there, there is much more deeper stuff!

I have more fun trying to punish techs and rolls than simple L-cancels, it actually requires a brain and not just 2 eyes (unless you're using sheik lol).

Playing someone that I can defeat simply by using shieldgrabs is not fun...

 

[Fletch]

Ppl weren't wavedashing since day 1.

We don't know how deep this game is yet!

Argument is destroyed.

I agree, we don't know how deep this game is yet, but we can infer the direction that Sakurai is taking it towards. Nothing "advanced" was really removed in Melee, but tons of new stuff was added. Meanwhile, we have only seen the removal of techs in Brawl, with nothing really to replace it. People weren't wavedashing since day one in Brawl, but there were so many new improvements (I rattled off a huge list in AZ's thread I think) and the game speed was so much faster, discovering WDing was just the icing on the cake.

I really hope that we are wrong, but there is definitely reason to worry after seeing the demo. I can only hope that this game could turn out to be as deep as Brawl, it just seems like Sakurai doesn't want to go in that direction...

 

[Mama]

**** I hope you're joking Mew2King.

If not then thats would I'd call a terrible example of a pro player. That and Dylan Tnga. You clearly forgot or simply never realized that it was the players that gave Melee its depth. When Melee first came out people didn't know what was in store and a lot of people were saying it would never be as good as Smash64.

We don't know every little detail/new technique we'll discover in Brawl. Wave Dashing may add depth to Melee but Brawl's depth will be discovered as we play it and not based off of the differences between it and Melee. So stop crying about the game losing its depth when all you have to go on is a simple demo, a few videos and pictures. Thats just silly.

And taking out lag means one less button to press for the pros. I don't care about making things harder for the sake of being hard. Not to mention that it might be something specifically for the DEMO seeing as how the real game is still months away. Its too early going by the previous release date. Stop jumping the gun and crying foul its far far too soon and you're making the rest of the advanced players seem like a bunch of tech junkies.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

But you gotta agree that this part of Melee is one of the most shallow out there, there is much more deeper stuff!

I have more fun trying to punish techs and rolls than simple L-cancels, it actually requires a brain and not just 2 eyes (unless you're using sheik lol).

Playing someone that I can defeat simply by using shieldgrabs is not fun...

True, LOL at the shiek thing

and it depends what SF we're talking about here


but 3rd strike is like 50x more technical than smash. And for the sake of argument lets exclude perfect control fox plz

 

[Lant]

Get over it.

This isn't melee

This is BRAWL.

Maybe the excessive amount of formatted shiny words will get through to you.

You can play 64 and have fun without wavedashing, Brawl will be 3x as fun. There'll still be a competitive scene. Stop pretending that having the knowledge of, and incorprating wavedashing into your gameplay will help you.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Can you do pikachus recovery (4 inputs)

Then you should be able to L cancel (1 input)

or wavedashing (3 inputs)

Jump, do an aerial attack (c stick prefearbly), press downwards, press L.

Thats shffling, the basis of advanced smash. same ammount of inputs as pikachus recovery and not hard if you break it down.

Hit L before you hit the ground.

Wavedashing is a little tricker but meh its muscle memory. It really shouldnt take more than 30-60 minutes to learn for life.

It's not really the button pressing. I can easily do Pikachu's recovery. But WDing and L-cancelling take literally split-second timing, which is something not everyone is adept at. Trying to make sure to hit L within a 6th of a second to me is...Not easy at all.

 

[~N9NE~]

At the end of the day, Brawl is going to rock my socks.

Wavedashing included or not.

 

[Fletch]

You've got to be kidding me.

Oh, sure... some of the advanced techniques and glitches are gone. Boo hoo.

I, along with many other people have said this: they'll probably be new techniques that you can find and use for Brawl.

It's not the end of the world. Brawl will not suck only because things like wavedashing is gone. Suck it up. It's a new game.

Brawl wasn't only created for tourney players and pros.

We hope that's the case, we're just worried Sakurai is intent on removing everything... And if Brawl isn't created for tourney players and pros, it will never have NEAR the following of Melee.

 

[Tony_]

Dylan, quit defending idiots like yourself. I've heard you suck at Melee anyways, so you shouldn't be talking.

Also, if someone is quitting because of a few lost techs, let them. We don't need their f@aggotry ruining Brawl.

 

[Eggm]

In all honesty, with the loss of Wavedashing comes a loss of many more effective tactics that really could have added more depth in brawl.

-We lose Wavedashing, which means we cannot alter our current direction at almost any moment on the ground, which gives more options and mix-ups for spacing, as well as making many characters faster or actually viable.
-We lose options for attacking/maneuvering out of our shield, as well as quickly following up ground/grab combos. We also lose the ability to Triangle-Jump.
-We lose the ability to aim our airdodge. This is just as important, due to all the options for recovery we currently enjoy and employ in Melee. We lose options for dodging and escaping combos in the air, and (currently) allows us less options for recovering back onto the stage.

It's not that we NEED wavedashing in Brawl, as we'll no doubt learn and adapt without it. It's just unfortunate how much depth we're losing in the melee/brawl transition with the physics properties of the airdodge being changed.

This was pretty much the best post in this thread by far and it was ignored. This is also coming from a jigglypuff player, who honestly gains nothing but harder opponents from wding. As jigglypuff players don't use wding all that much.

Anyways, I was thinking about it, and 95% of the people who bought melee, probably have no idea about advanced techniques... so the game is going to sell basically the same amount with or without them. Theres basically 2 and 1/2 % who learned about them and don't really care for them and want them out, and another 2 and 1/2 % who did learn about them and play the game competitively and go to tournaments. Neither of which they are going to lose their money either, cause well.. both sides are going to buy it reguardless anyway just for fun. I think considering that, they should choose to side with the 2 and 1/2 % who like advanced techniques so their game can gain publicity with MLG and EVO if its a tournament worthy game. Also tournament players will probably continue to play for years and years and buy new controllers and copies of the games cause they lost theirs or whatever, so they might make more money. So basically from an economic standpoint I don't see any reason to remove l-caneling or wavedashing.

Some other depth king forgot to mention was, wavelanding off platforms to regain jumps for jiggs, or to do back kicks or stuff for all characters. Jump down to a platform waveland back and kick or stuff like that, adds incredible depth. This is all going to be gone, also yoshi's recovery is going to suffer from not being able to aim air dodges thats corny. Yoshi can't DJC anymore again removing an advanced technique kinda dumb IMO.

Overall the game seems floatier which is boring, i hated playing floaty chars in melee cause its hard to get down against opponents hitting you back up under platforms so annoying, and also the downtime from having to fall after getting hit high and not dying.. also every character falls at the same speed, which removes depth no fast fallers and stuff... no variety.

For all the newbs who think the playground will be even cause of no advanced techs are so wrong, they will still get rocked by advanced players, as what makes you better is mostly breaking down mental barriers about how you think about the game moreso than learning the techniques, I didn't get truly good and beat good names until I broke those mental barriers, and I've always had really great technical skill, so theres some proof.

Anyways I'm with m2k, I think it should be in, it'd also be great if new techniques were in as well, but why not have both? Make the game ridiculously deep?

As far as I can see, from the demo it looks corny, not much depth, hopefully it changes when the real game comes out, either way i'm going to get it to play for fun but I hope its also a tournament level game.

Anyways to recap my points on why I think it should be left in.
Money for nintendo should be about the same
New techniques can be added without removing old ones
Adds incredible depth as I explained and the king did.
95% of true casuals most likely play it without knowing about it and have fun anyways.
Directional air dodging is awesome and has more uses than just wding, corny it was taken out.

Well, whatever I just wanted to post my thoughts.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Dylan, quit defending idiots like yourself. I've heard you suck at Melee anyways, so you shouldn't be talking.

Also, if someone is quitting because of a few lost techs, let them. We don't need their f@aggotry ruining Brawl.

Mew2king is not an idiot. You should be banned from SWF for that comment.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

depth is contextual.

how many moves do you do at high level?


wd is one option, and its the best option for what it does. so if you take that away and force people to use other options instead.. how is that make the game simplier?

if anything, its adding depth because there is no end all be all movement option in most situations.

side note: you can punish people even when they do l cancel a good majority of moves if you spaced it right. them not canceling just makes it easier giving you slop factor.

 

[creep]

Brawl wasn't only created for tourney players and pros.

Fun fact: Neither was melee.

 

[BentoBox]

I can't recover with luigi's tornado =[.

 

[Mama]

Dylan seems like the biggest newb. More noobish than any scrub I've seen post on the forums. And crying about people sharing links to youtube videos? Don't put **** online if you don't want other people to see it.

You seriously think that by shortening the lag on moves (which still may only be something demo specific.) that the game is going to lose depth? You haven't even played it. You don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes. a missed L-cancel doesn't always result in punishment. If anything its just a failed combo. Its tech chasing that is more punishable. You seriously need to sit back and calm down.


And you need to get it through your heads that Brawl is not Melee. What may be a loss in depth by Melee standards is not a loss in depth for Brawl. Think of the Smash64 to Melee transition and how different that was. What new things were discovered. People are already discovering new things for Brawl. The idiots are crying now about the stupidest things. "we lose our ability to aim our dodge whine whine whine" well we gain the ability to attack, jump, upB out of it enough said.

 

[Shai Hulud]

depth is contextual.

how many moves do you do at high level?


wd is one option, and its the best option for what it does. so if you take that away and force people to use other options instead.. how is that make the game simplier?

if anything, its adding depth because there is no end all be all movement option in most situations.

side note: you can punish people even when they do l cancel a good majority of moves if you spaced it right. them not canceling just makes it easier giving you slop factor.

Can't punish my purple Fox. No way.

They nerfed purple Fox in Brawl.

 

[Tony_]

Mew2king is not an idiot. You should be banned from SWF for that comment.

The truth hurts doesn't it?

 

[-Wolfy-]

You have to admit for some people, Dylan being a good musician (I've checked out some of your youtube vids), will probably be better with his finger coordination than your typical Joe Noob. Are they easy for anyone who will take a bit of time to work on them? Yes. Are there people who just don't match their will to play with their fingers capabilities? Yes. There are some new advanced techniques Gimpy has told us about, and wavelanding has even been partially confirmed. Being a buggy demo that was bad enough for them to delay it, I wouldn't say this is the be all end all of what Brawl is. The new advanced techniques are what I'm most anxious about learning.

 

[Fletch]

This was pretty much the best post in this thread by far and it was ignored. This is also coming from a jigglypuff player, who honestly gains nothing but harder opponents from wding. As jigglypuff players don't use wding all that much.

Anyways, I was thinking about it, and 95% of the people who bought melee, probably have no idea about advanced techniques... so the game is going to sell basically the same amount with or without them. Theres basically 2 and 1/2 % who learned about them and don't really care for them and want them out, and another 2 and 1/2 % who did learn about them and play the game competitively and go to tournaments. Neither of which they are going to lose their money either, cause well.. both sides are going to buy it reguardless anyway just for fun. I think considering that, they should choose to side with the 2 and 1/2 % who like advanced techniques so their game can gain publicity with MLG and EVO if its a tournament worthy game. Also tournament players will probably continue to play for years and years and buy new controllers and copies of the games cause they lost theirs or whatever, so they might make more money. So basically from an economic standpoint I don't see any reason to remove l-caneling or wavedashing.

Some other depth king forgot to mention was, wavelanding off platforms to regain jumps for jiggs, or to do back kicks or stuff for all characters. Jump down to a platform waveland back and kick or stuff like that, adds incredible depth. This is all going to be gone, also yoshi's recovery is going to suffer from not being able to aim air dodges thats corny. Yoshi can't DJC anymore again removing an advanced technique kinda dumb IMO.

Overall the game seems floatier which is boring, i hated playing floaty chars in melee cause its hard to get down against opponents hitting you back up under platforms so annoying, and also the downtime from having to fall after getting hit high and not dying.. also every character falls at the same speed, which removes depth no fast fallers and stuff... no variety.

For all the newbs who think the playground will be even cause of no advanced techs are so wrong, they will still get rocked by advanced players, as what makes you better is mostly breaking down mental barriers about how you think about the game moreso than learning the techniques, I didn't get truly good and beat good names until I broke those mental barriers, and I've always had really great technical skill, so theres some proof.

Anyways I'm with m2k, I think it should be in, it'd also be great if new techniques were in as well, but why not have both? Make the game ridiculously deep?

As far as I can see, from the demo it looks corny, not much depth, hopefully it changes when the real game comes out, either way i'm going to get it to play for fun but I hope its also a tournament level game.

Anyways to recap my points on why I think it should be left in.
Money for nintendo should be about the same
New techniques can be added without removing old ones
Adds incredible depth as I explained and the king did.
95% of true casuals most likely play it without knowing about it and have fun anyways.
Directional air dodging is awesome and has more uses than just wding, corny it was taken out.

Well, whatever I just wanted to post my thoughts.

I missed King's post through all these idiotic posts, but that is a great read, along with everything you said... People, please listen to some of the more respected players talking in here, they have been around for forever and obviously know what they are talking about.

 

[Red_Maniac]

Do NOT judge the entire game based on videos of not-very-good players and annoying booth girls playing Brawl.

We hope that's the case, we're just worried Sakurai is intent on removing everything... And if Brawl isn't created for tourney players and pros, it will never have NEAR the following of Melee.

Haven't we already found one or two already?

Mew2king is not an idiot. You should be banned from SWF for that comment.

If only we could all get along...

Fun fact: Neither was melee.

ZING

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Dylan seems like the biggest newb. More noobish than any scrub I've seen post on the forums. And crying about people sharing links to youtube videos? Don't put **** online if you don't want other people to see it.

You seriously think that by shortening the lag on moves (which still may only be something demo specific.) that the game is going to lose depth? You haven't even played it. You don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes. a missed L-cancel doesn't always result in punishment. If anything its just a failed combo. Its tech chasing that is more punishable. You seriously need to sit back and calm down.

Don't assume anything. 4channers and a lot of other asswipes have totally ****ed Dylan over by posting all sorts of personal **** on the web. It wasn't just youtube videos. He's almost gained a sort of noteriety (Go Dylan! LMFAO)

 

[BigRick]

True, LOL at the shiek thing

and it depends what SF we're talking about here


but 3rd strike is like 50x more technical than smash. And for the sake of argument lets exclude perfect control fox plz

Hmm I dont really think so... maybe its because I moved from standard fighters to Smash.

Anyways if you want to exclude Fox then I have the right to exclude Yun lol

In SF you don't need fast fingers, you just need timing. Learning SF3 right now (wasn't playing it much cause I was a SF2 purist, kinda like you're a Melee purist lol) and it's much more intuitive that Melee.

Smash is more like your Marvel and GGXX where you need to input extra stuff to make your actions more viable... that's why I think it's more technical.

 

[jigedysmashmo]

Really people. IT'S OUT. Deal with it instead of being little babies about it. You ever think that Sakurai meant to take it out? SSB64 works as a competitive game without WDing. Just stop your *****ing and live with it rather then being a bunch of whiny brats.

lol that pic is amazing!..haha but ya i agree with you...everyone should just let go of wavedashing...everyone from where i live is crying about it being gone..so im just kind of tired of it really..wave dashing isnt that great....

 

[Ixninjax]

mew2king has made thousands of dollars because of how good he is at smash, you honestly think his input is dumb?

 

[Tony_]

mew2king has made thousands of dollars because of how good he is at smash, you honestly think his input is dumb?

I could make thousands playing poker. Point?

 

[BentoBox]

I'm sure Sakurai cares about the money he gained. Being good doesn't make you right.

 

[Dan-E]

You don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Of course we don't. But we're getting a very good idea already and it's not looking good which is why we're upset.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Agreed about M2K, for those of you who don't know, near all of the technical information we have on smash was compiled/tested by M2k. Be respectful.

 

[Eggm]

I could make thousands playing poker. Point?

I could say that too, doesn't mean i'm going to.

M2k actually did it. I've also made about 1 grand profits from tournaments in my time playing melee ( a little over a year) I woul've won money if m2k didn't happen to live in the same state. ><

And honestly no one has enough respect for m2k, the better at the game I get the better he seems, its absurd lol. It feels like you can almost not catch up, his level of flawlessness is astounding.. to say the least, unless you guys are really good you will never understand the depth of m2k's skill tho..

Hes still going to rock most people at brawl if he decides to dedicate himself to it.

 

[NES n00b]

I could make thousands playing poker. Point?

Your input would be very good for competitive Poker players. lol If you went to tournies for Poker.

And I don't like where the game is going, but I am going to play it.

I will break this game so I can make scrubs whine. XD

 

[Ixninjax]

lol, well you haven't. Somebody who is significantly better then you at something and has loads more knowledge as well should have a more important opinion then you. You think wavedashing is dumb, although you don't even understand its uses at a competitive level. Mew2king does.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

You know, just for the hell of it, I'd like to play one Adv. player online, just so I can report back to the forum about Casual v. Adv matches. Maybe it would shut the scrubs up seeing as how I'm middle of the fence on most **** on this forum.

 

[Mama]

I missed King's post through all these idiotic posts, but that is a great read, along with everything you said... People, please listen to some of the more respected players talking in here, they have been around for forever and obviously know what they are talking about.

Thats why I was so disappointed to see Mew2 King off all people post about something like this. I used to really like him. Now I only see him as someone afraid of change and unwilling to adapt. He does not see the potential of Brawl and his views are clouded by Melee mechanics and Melee's depth when Brawl is going to have its own things. He may have been playing for a long time but when he made this thread I lost all respect for him...

 

[F@lc0-san]

I dont really care for Wavedashing being out but people should stop calling M2K a scrub. That is just wrong people.

 

[BigRick]

Of course we don't. But we're getting a very good idea already and it's not looking good which is why we're upset.

No you don't even have a good idea...

When Melee was out, we didn't knew that Wavedashing existed. Pros were simply playing the game, without wavedashes.

You simply can't tell, because the only thing we tried to do so far is apply the stuff that Melee had to Brawl...

But since Brawl is meant to be played different, it's not a surprise that some of our advanced stuff doesn't work anymore!

 

[KirbySSB]

**** I hope you're joking Mew2King.

If not then thats would I'd call a terrible example of a pro player. That and Dylan Tnga. You clearly forgot or simply never realized that it was the players that gave Melee its depth. When Melee first came out people didn't know what was in store and a lot of people were saying it would never be as good as Smash64.

We don't know every little detail/new technique we'll discover in Brawl. Wave Dashing may add depth to Melee but Brawl's depth will be discovered as we play it and not based off of the differences between it and Melee. So stop crying about the game losing its depth when all you have to go on is a simple demo, a few videos and pictures. Thats just silly.

And taking out lag means one less button to press for the pros. I don't care about making things harder for the sake of being hard. Not to mention that it might be something specifically for the DEMO seeing as how the real game is still months away. Its too early going by the previous release date. Stop jumping the gun and crying foul its far far too soon and you're making the rest of the advanced players seem like a bunch of tech junkies.

I have to say I agree with this and that some people are losing their heads

People are acting like this is melee, without wding and Lcancelling. Yeah I can see why people think that would suck. but this is brawl, it's a whole new game.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

if you were playing poker, and not a different card game that has similarity to poker.


gd, posts too fast, look like apathy setting in. ohh well.