We need Wavedashing, we must take action to assure it

[Dylan_Tnga]

I said I wouldnt post in the brawl sections anymore but this doenst count because its mew2kings thread, and vindication for the ****ing hell scrubs continue to put me through by spamming my youtube/email/everything and sharing my personal information/pictures WITHOUT MY PERMISSION

that should be illegal. I bet it is, but theres no way to prosecute it.

Brawl sucks. Lets just all not play it competitivly and keep melee tourneys going. Scrubs are too ****ing stupid to organize tourneys if they cant even handle hitting L before they land, Im sorry.

Yeah, just don't quit melee please. Or the scrubs and money hungry wii suppliers win.

Since when have easy games EVER been good? I miss the NES days.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Casual players tend to not really know about wavedashing or L-canceling, and it doesn't tend to affect them. There are plenty of people who didn't know about those, thought they were good because they could beat their friends, got wrecked at a tourney, and decided that the competitive scene is ********. They still play to win, see, they just have this distinct hate for advanced techniques because it was very visible what it did and thus they feel that it's all that separates winning against their friends from losing badly in a tournament.

Ehh. Not really.

Wtf, i use the advance techniques, even i'm sad they are removed because made the game fun, but is ok if they go out. For me, i enjoy the same ssb64 and ssb melee, so i haven't got any problem with a neg game: i will be good in it and enjoy it equal.

'm not too good in melee nor smash 64, but i like the adv. techs and try to do them all better and better. I think i'm not a noob nor a scrub. Only a "not-too-good player" U^^

And hell... i think I got my Gc stick ****ed of playing 64, i had to buy a new controller :S

Edited: Note: in melee smash DI also exist , DI as his concepts exists in ssb64 and you can get out of combos (in most cases U^_^ like in melee)

Dylan_tnga... you musn't act like you are acting

 

[creep]

Dude.

Your join date is TODAY.

And you are posting about the "Smash community" as if you know your *** from your elbow. You don't know anything.

If you want to be part of the community, go to tournaments. Meet people. You don't just post in some forum and think suddenly you ****ing matter.

Generally assumptions are always good right? I made this account today, I have been lurking here for years and posted on a different name for a while, but stopped because threads like these.. :/

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

new game. new statagies. new techs.


there were people who whined when hayashida got nerfed from tekken 4 to tekken 5... it happens, the game rewarded from it because hayashida (unlike wding) was borderline broken and only applicable by 2-3 characters.

brawl MIGHT not be competative material once its out and played, but assuming us losing a movement tactic as justification to it pre-release is not thinking.

but any game coming out could be broken and not worth the time, loss of something from one game to another.

we dont NEED wding to be competative, if anything we need the opposite of this mentality to make smash transition smoother into competition. your putting a hex on the game before youve even touched it.

besides, people moving less effecient means more of a focus on spacing, thats it. people will find new ways to accomidate for the lack of realativly instant movement back or forwards. yes it will probly be harder to execute. but.. if you want something to toat over crappy players, would HARD to do advanced movement be more of something?

and on the topic of "spent so much time on it" or "it will be different" yeah.. thats how NEW games are. i will play brawl as hard as i play melee, the only way it couldent be competative is due to brokeness, thats it.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

Oh, I didn't realise that 'the community' were such elitist pricks, sorry, next time I'll just shine your shoes and keep quiet.

you're getting the wrong idea; it's not elitism. look at how many members of smashboards there are, like over 60,000. how many people are actual traveling competitive players? a handful of a few hundred. last night i think there were more people viewing the forum general brawl discussion then there are people who are part of the tournament community.

the smash tournament community isn't elitist, we accept anyone. but you can't just join smashboards and make a few posts and say your opinions reflect those of the pros. and involuntarily, this is what happens all the time because of the thousands of people who post on smashboards.

 

[NES n00b]

Ow, my ego. And the collective egos of "casuals" who really couldn't care one way or another. Way to group us all together. There are "casuals" here I would NOT want to be associated with, thank you very much.

That is where the term scrubs comes in.

Edit: Tekken 4 while being the most broken is also arguably the most deep.

 

[Walgreens Pharmacist]

Casual players tend to not really know about wavedashing or L-canceling, and it doesn't tend to affect them. There are plenty of people who didn't know about those, thought they were good because they could beat their friends, got wrecked at a tourney, and decided that the competitive scene is ********. They still play to win, see, they just have this distinct hate for advanced techniques because it was very visible what it did and thus they feel that it's all that separates winning against their friends from losing badly in a tournament.

Ehh. Not really.

hell, i'd be bored if i won everytime i played. Just b/c all my friends and myself are about equal in skill doesn't say anything. You guess just have to realize brawl is a totally different game, as is melee was a totally different game to Smash 64.

there isn't WD'ing in 64, but i still see that m2k is good at it....

 

[~N9NE~]

I don't need wavedashing, l-cancelling or breakdancing.

I just need Brawl.

 

[frankisvital]

Denial
Anger
Bargaining <- You are here
Depression
Acceptance

 

[BigRick]

While the introduction of new airdodge mechanics may have taken away some of the potential ground-metagame, it has very much added to the airial metagame, and that's something I definitely think people should appreciate.

Ah someone that agrees with me.

Different doesn't necessarily mean bad, that's what I had to learn in SF...
You have the right to not like something that is different, however do not bash it.

 

[Fletch]

For all the people that are saying "if you were good at this game you should..." are you honestly trying to imply that M2K isn't good at melee?

game balance has nothing to do with removing wavedashing. wavedashing isn't a gamebreaking technique. it's more of a mindgame than anything else.

what M2K is most upset about, as well as the rest of the competitive smash community is the purposeful removal of depth to this game. so far the only things that they left in that made competitive play what it is is DD and short hopping which were pretty much the two easiest things to pick up technically. sakurai is dumbing his game down, and without a larger technical skill line drawn between the pros and the noobs then this game will go the way of N64 smash. Fun, but unrecognized as a real fighting game.

Still it's only Day 1 (day 2 now i guess) of the demo so we'll see. Gimpyfish's impressions gave me back some of my hope. especially the weird dash cancelling or whatever it was. I'm just praying to God that Sakurai gave us back more than what he took out.

Do you guys seriously read what anyone has to say in this thread? Dan-E has reiterated this post over and over again throughout the whole thread, yet everyone who undoubtedly has no experience with competitive smash is just saying that WDing is "ZOMG UNBAL" or a "glitch" and shouldn't be in the game. Regardless of whether or not it's a glitch, the truth is that it added a great amount of depth to the game, and sustained Melee for all these years to make it an absolutely amazing fighter.

What M2K is getting at is that removal of something like the WD will destroy the competitive scene... Look at Smash 64 for evidence. Although SSB64 if a fun game, it gets to a point where you can simply max out your potential, and zero-death combo any character. Removal of depth is simply not a smart strategy, and M2K is worried because we have not seen anything to replace WD, and the Brawl engine seems incredibly "dumbed-down" right now.

And why is anyone arguing against M2K? He is obviously the best player in the world, and without a doubt knows more than anyone about this game by a longshot, he knows what he is talking about. He will not even need the WD to destroy you in Brawl, as I have no doubt he will remain one of the top players, but he is simply worried about Brawl becoming a competitive, respected fighter which will be played for many years instead of simply reaching a ceiling a short while after it comes out.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Denial
Anger
Bargaining <- You are here
Depression
Acceptance

Loled

Please someone Rescue the STFU gif XDDD

 

[Shai Hulud]

hell, i'd be bored if i won everytime i played. Just b/c all my friends and myself are about equal in skill doesn't say anything. You guess just have to realize brawl is a totally different game, as is melee was a totally different game to Smash 64.

there isn't WD'ing in 64, but i still see that m2k is good at it....

Johns.

You don't need to justify your losing by pretending you have a life. This is a video game forum--everyone here is a hardcore gamer by traditional definitions. If you lose it's because you suck. Don't even pretend losing is more fun than winning.

God I am so sick of this crap.

I mean what the ****? As if there were even players who won EVERY TIME they played. If you're winning every time you play, you need to find some new opponents, not dumb down your play and make excuses.

 

[BigRick]

What M2K is getting at is that removal of something like the WD will destroy the competitive scene... Look at Smash 64 for evidence. Although SSB64 if a fun game, it gets to a point where you can simply max out your potential, and zero-death combo any character. Removal of depth is simply not a smart strategy, and M2K is worried because we have not seen anything to replace WD, and the Brawl engine seems incredibly "dumbed-down" right now.

Ppl weren't wavedashing since day 1.

We don't know how deep this game is yet!

Argument is destroyed.

 

[Rang Flash]

Wavedashing almost gave me carpel tunnel syndrome. I'm perfectly fine with it being removed from Brawl. In melee sometimes it was like, either you abuse your fingers and wavedash to keep up, or you have a severe disadvantage.

 

[Rash]

We don't know enough about Brawl, that's exactly it. And we won't until months after the game is released. That's how it goes.

But again, I still don't see why wavedashing is the gateway to competitiveness. I mean yeah, it might be for Melee because that game has been discovered to be best competitively with players who use the WD (or at least have it in their arsenal, along with the other possibly more important techniques), but Brawl's a different game and may rely on different battle-strategies depending on whatever changes in physics are made.

What you are actually saying is that Melee wouldn't be competitive without wavedashing. You're not talking about Brawl.

And just to comment on Dylan's post (sorry, I just had to), Melee was what I would call an "easy" game; a fully-casual funfest; one of the most accessible games of all time for people of all ages. You didn't even need to know any of the advanced techniques to unlock everything in the game. It was the players themselves creating a competitive scene that made it seem harder and deeper. Who's to say they won't do the same with Brawl?

 

[BentoBox]

Casual players tend to not really know about wavedashing or L-canceling, and it doesn't tend to affect them. There are plenty of people who didn't know about those, thought they were good because they could beat their friends, got wrecked at a tourney, and decided that the competitive scene is ********. They still play to win, see, they just have this distinct hate for advanced techniques because it was very visible what it did and thus they feel that it's all that separates winning against their friends from losing badly in a tournament.

Ehh. Not really.

And there are those people who are over mourning the loss of ATs because they've longed ago realised that games are meant for distraction, not to constitute a life around. I'm not telling you to get a life or anything of the sort, but you should be aware of the implications of your acts and learn to simply let go, because nothing lasts forever. You've had your share of fun with Melee, why can't you cherish those memories and move on? Gimpy&co enjoyed Brawl at its current state, you could too if you stopped being in denial. Win-win.

 

[NES n00b]

Ppl weren't wavedashing since day 1.

We don't know how deep this game is yet!

Argument is destroyed.

"Right now"

Argument is destroyed.

Edit: LOL, define denial

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

You don't need to justify your losing by pretending you have a life. This is a video game forum--everyone here is a hardcore gamer by traditional definitions. If you lose it's because you suck. Don't even pretend losing is more fun than winning.

Praise Shai. And his falcon, climbers, and fox. Mostly falcon though cuz falcon rocks.

We don't know how deep this game is yet!

Deep enough that Vincent is quitting if there's no wavedashing or L cancelling, and there isnt. We're losing Vwin

Im bringing a cube and melee to the bi-weeklies, we need at least ONE tv playing real smash.

L cancelling rick. L cancelling. its like 50 times more important to competitive play than wavedashing.

 

[Walgreens Pharmacist]

Johns.

You don't need to justify your losing by pretending you have a life. This is a video game forum--everyone here is a hardcore gamer by traditional definitions. If you lose it's because you suck. Don't even pretend losing is more fun than winning.

God I am so sick of this crap.

I mean what the ****? As if there were even players who won EVERY TIME they played. If you're winning every time you play, you need to find some new opponents, not dumb down your play and make excuses.

so anyone that loses sucks now?
i get more happy when i'm beat, so i get the determined to beat that player. unlike some people, the more i lose, the more i want to play and get better.

 

[Shai Hulud]

so anyone that loses sucks now?
i get more happy when i'm beat, so i get the determined to beat that player. unlike some people, the more i lose, the more i want to play and get better.

Now you're just contradicting yourself. You say you like to lose because it makes you want to win more and get better. But you can't let yourself get too good or else the game will be no fun anymore.

LMAO.

 

[BigRick]

''Right now'' is exactly the point of my post

Were ppl using wavedashing in day 1 in melee? No. The game must've been pretty dumb back then huh?

Don't bother talking about L-canceling because that's artificial depth.

My point is that you can't say that a game is shallow if you didn't try to break it first... heck, M2K didn't even play it!

EDIT: You guys should wait until January 2009 to make a comparison...

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

nes noob:

no tekken 4 was ran by jin, then other mishismas and nina were right after, beyond that, every one else was about the same. the changes in the gameplay due to the enviorment were neglegable compared to the changes in over theme. (it was more agressive friendly, less turtle friendly). plus jin in t4 is almost as broke as a KOF boss. (watch a korean tekken 4 jin match)

tekken 5 DR is by far the deepest and best tekken game to date. reguardless of what we lost from 4. it is also the most balanced.


if your *****ing about something being different, you dont know the ramifications of it being different untill you feel the for the most part entirely new game. so shut up.

if your *****ing cause other people are *****ing about losing something from a game. thats pointless, shut up.

and thusly me posting here is pointless, im doing it out of annoyance.

to all of the long time smashboards posters: do you know how horrible this reaction is to smash brothers credibility in the competative fighting game scene? there are scrubs going "YAY ITS GONE!" and good players going "OMFG ITS GONE!?" if it wasent for sf4 there would be people going "god, im never touching smash or the community , look at this immature ****."

god ****.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Don't bother talking about L-canceling because that's artificial depth.

No it isnt. Making it automatic makes it impossible to miss, everyone misses cancels. What do you say to that?

so anyone that loses sucks now?

Yes. No johns.

''Fox's upsmash isn't why you lose. You lose because you SUCK and you need to train to get better'

- Me

Oh and to sum up this thread with another me quote

''Aniki doesn't wavedash, skill is a glitch, you have no life, and ken is cheap''

 

[Walgreens Pharmacist]

Now you're just contradicting yourself. You say you like to lose because it makes you want to win more and get better. But you can't let yourself get too good or else the game will be no fun anymore.

LMAO.

a game isn't fun for me if i get the same result. If i lose after winning lets say, a few matches in a row that will make me much more focused next time i play. I don't plan on traveling the country for something i see a hobby, i'm sorry.

i plan to get as good as i need to, to beat my friends. I don't need to waste hours and hours of my free time playing.

than once they are good enough to beat me, i will seek to improve a great deal more. I'm not saying i won't be getting better while playing my friends, i just won't play by myself until i start losing significantly.

 

[piffman2]

Glitches should be removed, and so they are

 

[GreenKirby]

Guys, guys.

Didn't you hear? Ink Dropping is gonna be the new Wavedash, duh!

 

[Rash]

No it isnt. Making it automatic makes it impossible to miss, everyone misses cancels. What do you say to that?

The cancel is less important than what comes after, I say. Missing the opportunity for attack/defense rather than the transition into doing so (i.e. l-cancelling) is a more significant "miss" for anyone who actually has pride in their battle-strategy. Without automatic lag reduction (which I'll state again, is a PERFECTION of a game's engine on the developer's part) there's less space to strategize the next move on both sides.

 

[Koga]

Ugh!!!

I really hope the players don't ruin this game, its shaping up to be the best game ever.

it will be competative, there will be advanced techniques, but it'll be different. Its the Natural Evolution of Smash and we shouldn't be afraid of it. it makes me sad to think people like Dylan Tnga would start a movment among the smash elite to not play Brawl Competatively that's just like playing 64 and when Melee came out not playing it 'cause it was different, even though deeper.

lets just wait, play it and see. it really is an Elitist attitiude some people have though, some of us are still in denial, some have moved to bargaining, im already at acceptance and ready to play brawl competatively.

Ugh again, i just read some more posts and people keep getting rediculousER (yes, its a word now, i said so)

just because brawl doesn't have the adv techs of melee doesn't mean its not deep! what part of that don't you people understand?! you just want to cruise right from melee to brawl without losing a step in between but its not gonna happnen!! there will be adjustments that have to be made so who cares?! a scrub that relies on one style of play to win thats who. Yeah, thats right all these adv tech whiners are brawl Scrubs; they have the moves in melee and whine cause they're not in brawl. You cant argue deepness because we know this game will have deepness just because of the sheer volumes of things that you can do in it, remove a certain set of adv techs doesn't mean the end of the competative world.

stop being scrubby and accept brawl as a new, different, and deeper game, end of story.

 

[BigRick]

No it isnt. Making it automatic makes it impossible to miss, everyone misses cancels. What do you say to that?

Lol ask Matt if he misses L-cancels. Heck, I don't even miss L-cancels.Anyways, this is not a L-canceling thread.

My point is that you gotta play Brawl and test the new strategies out before saying it's not deep. Wtf you can jump/attack after an airdodge now, it adds new variables to me, even though it removes old ones.

Plus there are stuff that we didn't discover yet... we might find something SUPERIOR to wavedashing, you don't know!

EDIT: And yea Ink Drops might be a viable alternative in order to space attacks and grabs instead of wavedashes.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

dylan:


according to the impressions, some moves l cancel automaticly and some dont.

what do we call that? moves having variable recovery you cant change. like all other fighters have.

in the long run? dont use a move that will get you hurt if you dont know the situation gaurentees it.

every one say it with me now : RISK VS REWARD.

well done.

 

[BentoBox]

No it isnt. Making it automatic makes it impossible to miss, everyone misses cancels. What do you say to that?

All it does is put less emphasis on someone's tech skill and thus prioritizes mindgames.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

The cancel is less important than what comes after, I say. Without automatic lag reduction (which I'll state again, is a PERFECTION of a game's engine on the developer's part) there's more space to strategize the next attack on both sides.

Or you could just learn to cancel and make part of the game involve pressing buttons.

Oh ya I forgot pressing buttons is too hard. We'll go easier on that this time (sakurai quote)

Smash melee was barely technical at all compared to almost every other competitive fighter out there.

L cancelling - ZOMG PRESS A BUTTON?!??!?!

wavedashing - ZOMG HOLD DIAGONAL AND PRESS JUMP AND L?!?!??!

jump cancelling grabs - ZOMFFFFFFG!!! pressing jump before you dash grab!

its like you have to be a musician or something to play smash

Oh wait, no melee is really easy and if you can't do the techniques in it, than you probably suck at video games. Theyre so ****ing easy.

All it does is put less emphasis on someone's tech skill and thus prioritizes mindgames.

No, it completly destroys the game of punishing missed cancels, which should always be a part of smash

''You missed a cancel, you're dead''

 

[~N9NE~]

Is wavedashing the be all and end all of the game?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Is wavedashing the be all and end all of the game?

Nope. L cancelling is pretty close to it though.

 

[BigRick]

SF is less technical than smash...

 

[2007]

Seems like a futile attempt, on an over discussed topic.

QFT.
then again, maybe that's what the Brawl perfection project is about: bringing it back.
=2007=

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

yeah.. instead it puts the game onto pushing moves with bad recovery used incorrectly.

you say "should" and yet.. its not.

thusly, it shouldent. apparantly.

 

[valoem]

Really people. IT'S OUT. Deal with it instead of being little babies about it. You ever think that Sakurai meant to take it out? SSB64 works as a competitive game without WDing. Just stop your *****ing and live with it rather then being a bunch of whiny brats.

lol i play ssb64 competitively and i hate to break it ... the game is not competitive

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Or you could just learn to cancel and make part of the game involve pressing buttons.

Oh ya I forgot pressing buttons is too hard. We'll go easier on that this time (sakurai quote)

Smash melee was barely technical at all compared to almost every other competitive fighter out there.

L cancelling - ZOMG PRESS A BUTTON?!??!?!

wavedashing - ZOMG HOLD DIAGONAL AND PRESS JUMP AND L?!?!??!

jump cancelling grabs - ZOMFFFFFFG!!! pressing jump before you dash grab!

its like you have to be a musician or something to play smash

Oh wait, no melee is really easy and if you can't do the techniques in it, than you probably suck at video games. Theyre so ****ing easy.



No, it completly destroys the game of punishing missed cancels, which should always be a part of smash

''You missed a cancel, you're dead''

At bolded text.

No no no no no no no and no. Just because YOU think it's easy, doesn't mean everyone else does. Even after trying to practice WDing and L-cancelling, I can do it maybe 1 out of every 20 times I try. It's NOT easy.

And I've heard this problem with alot of other respectable "casual" players as well.