wave dashin in brawl

[Ironclad]

Brawl is gonna be way different the melee so i doubt they'll have wd cause they didn't intend to put it in melee

Way to read the thread before posting.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

Basically. Ironclad, thank you. Lol
Luigi Ka-Master...SHUT UP MAN, Just shut up. omg. its over with, let it be. Sheesh.

...Sorry for not letting his flame on me go completely uninformed[/extreme sarcasm] . My problem with my post that I just made had nothing to do with the whole WD matter. I appreciate the fact that he apoligized about not meaning what he said, and already recognized this before I made the post. My problem had to do with the fact that he said I was putting words in his mouth when I wasn't.

 

[Zombie Cola]

Wow, I'm gone for 4 1/2 hours and you guys fall apart without me ; ) . Anyway, we are all bickering over this and it's senseless. I'm gonna try, I stress TRY to get a video displaying the different physics proerties of various characters using diff. tech moves. I imagine the best way to do so would be to use an AR but apparently some people think it messes with the game and consider it cheating...? At any rate, hopefully that can answer a few questions, lay some of these arguments to rest, and maybe even spawn some new questions. If you guys have any input as to how I should go about doing this please let me know.

 

[SiegK]

OMG! GUYS! I HAVE A GREAT IDEA. Its kinds far fetched but....How about we all shut up and follow our own beliefs! omg, wow. Ok? We all cool with that? No one wants to kill anyone for their assumptions of what the other thinks is right. Clean Slate for everyone. Some like WDing some dont, some think its a glitch some dont. How about we all just shut out mouths (no im not being a hypocrite, ill do u all a favor and shut up too if u all wil). Lets just w8 for Brawl and see what they seems fit. Can we all agree on AT LEAST that?
(P.s. I say this even though I was right all along...JK I dont wanna start anything JK Jk Jk)
Peace Treaty? or do we like fighting with eachother?
Rise of hands who want truce.
*Hand*

 

[SOLAR]

It doesn't matter, everyone will have the same advantage/disadvantage.

No, that's false. People who take the time to learn the depth of the game are better with wavedashing. Without wavedashing, newbs have it easier.

 

[SiegK]

Wavedashing or no wavedashing. Its all in the player him/herself. I remember back when I couldnt wavedash, I could still beat people who could. Now can we all call it peace? I shouldnt say that we have argued enough out of this subject, though it is very close, cause then we would fight again. Theres no sense bickering anymore really. End the nagging? yes? No?

 

[Sol]

I didn't read the thread cause I don't really care about brawl, I just wrote what I thought, and what I heard

 

[Ophelius]

If they take out WDing, half of the craziness will be gone. I like crazy.

 

[StellaNova]

IF nintendo was smart, then they would include wavedashing because they KNOW about all of the people who are serious about SSBM. Wouldn't logic tell them that wavedashing it a MUST, because they would instantly have all of their old customers, wavedashers and nonwavedashers, and SSBB would inevitably gain more and more advertisment because of the tournaments and with MLG covering them. It would be a foolish decision not to implement it. It would not affect those who do not wavedash to keep it in there. The question is: Why wouldn't Nintendo include wavedashing?

 

[h1roshi]

i believe as long as there's air dodging...there's gonna be wavedashing...and i severly doubt that there gonna take air dodging out...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Inferno_blaze]

They're going to have all the customers anyway, I mean, who would be lame enough to not by brawl just because it's not in, I mean if we hadn't found out about wavedash in melee then you'd buy it. They just need to help the mainstream market. I'm not saying it won't be in, just giving reason. I like WD but I hope that it's not in so that I can have a different game and to see how people's play styles adapt, I want to learn again with brawl.

 

[SiegK]

They're going to have all the customers anyway, I mean, who would be lame enough to not by brawl just because it's not in, I mean if we hadn't found out about wavedash in melee then you'd buy it. They just need to help the mainstream market. I'm not saying it won't be in, just giving reason. I like WD but I hope that it's not in so that I can have a different game and to see how people's play styles adapt, I want to learn again with brawl.

Kudos. No1 can really know, it up to nintendo. WDing is cool and all, I use it alot, but its way over rated. Moonwalking, in my opinion is cooler, but the word hasnt been spread as much as WDing. Please dont let SSB turn into a form of Media...

 

[Kokichi]

Okay, Zombie Cola, cF=), and everyone else that was participating, I want you to *stop* the flaming. Right. Now. I'd like to keep this thread open, but you guys have to calm down. I'm glad that you're debating, but I feel like the tone has more anger in it than it should. We're all fans of Brawl, and we all want Brawl to be better. Also, note that this isn't a "Was Wavedashing In SSBM On Purpose Or Not?" thread. You can go discuss that in the Melee Discussion Room if you want - that's why it's there. This is for talking about whether or not you expect to see Wavedashing in Brawl. The ups, the downs, the potentiality, the probability, etc.

So yes. Please, stop bickering, and start friendly debating. Just make sure you don't censor-dodge or anything, and please, don't insult other users when you know it's just going to get them mad. I mean, really, does it add to your argument to call someone else kid? Or some four-letter word? No. If anything, it takes credibility AWAY from your argument, and makes you seem more immature.

Finally, since I am interested on the issue - I have heard a lot of people say "l-cancelling and wavedashing were known about by the developers, but they kept it in anyways because of ______." I'd like to know exactly where this meme came from. Was there an interview with one of the HAL developers where he said this, or, more likely, has it simply grown into this myth from many years of forum usage? I'm guessing that it's a myth based upon some circumstantial evidence, such as by going through it in AR and looking at frames and numbering and names and whatnot. If that's the only basis for the argument of "The development team knew about it and left it in", then I think it's pretty weak. Know what happens when you assume? You make an *** out of u and me.

So, for the sake of reasonable debate, do *NOT* say "The development team knew about it and kept it in" or "The development team didn't know about it" unless you can back it up with some concrete proof, not "But that's what everyone says to be true!" or "I heard that there was this one interview...". No. Show proof. A link to an interview from Famitsu or something, I dunno. Just back up your reasoning. *That* is how you convince people and win an argument.

But, do all that in the Melee Discussion Room, please, chi

 

[Bones0]

Okay, here's my take on how Brawl would use WDing good for balance purposes. Think about it. In Melee, a longer WD made that character better on a lot of different things, including speed, the ability to connect combos, mindgames, etc. So, now that Nintendo has seen the full extent of WDing's abilities, they can hopefully use them to balance the character. For instance, if they were to go back to Melee and edit a few things, they could make it so Fox's WD was a lot shorter. This would in turn eliminate his ability to Waveshine and thus making him more balanced. That's just an example but the overall idea is, they can change WDing to balance Brawl finely. If they get a general idea of which characters are weaker and which are stronger, they can just switch up WD lengths and other new techs discovered in Melee. Perhaps even shortening or lengthinning (sp?) air dodges. (Yoshi gets a longer airdodge because he has no 3rd jump while Pikachu gets a short airdodge because he has a great recovery)

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Make SSBB Easier to Master Technically

As of right now I feel that SSBM requires way too much technical skill to play on a very high level.

It takes months of consistant practice to l-cancel everything even if you hit the person with a move or hit the person's shield. Short hopping also took a long time to do very consistantly. The only thing I feel is pretty basic and easy for everyone to do is teching and DI. All you have to do is hit the R button at the right time to tech, and DI you can just hold down the control stick.

Basically I'd like to see short hopping either be a completely different button from full jumping. I'd also like to see l-cancelling be as easy to do as teching. You just hit the L or R button when you are almost on the ground, not at the exact frame that you hit.

Finally I'd like to see them get rid of some of the character specific things that extreme technical skill can produce. These are things like waveshining with Fox, or two fairs in a short hop w/ Marth. If you make something possible it should be something that you can do with a little practice, meaning something you can just get better at by playing with your friends and having fun. Not spending time outside of matches just working on l-cancelling and ****. Anyway I'd just like to see SSBB reduce the technical aspects down to a minimum.

 

[Chromeless]

As of right now I feel that SSBM requires way too much technical skill to play on a very high level.

It takes months of consistant practice to l-cancel everything even if you hit the person with a move or hit the person's shield. Short hopping also took a long time to do very consistantly. The only thing I feel is pretty basic and easy for everyone to do is teching and DI. All you have to do is hit the R button at the right time to tech, and DI you can just hold down the control stick.

Basically I'd like to see short hopping either be a completely different button from full jumping. I'd also like to see l-cancelling be as easy to do as teching. You just hit the L or R button when you are almost on the ground, not at the exact frame that you hit.

Finally I'd like to see them get rid of some of the character specific things that extreme technical skill can produce. These are things like waveshining with Fox, or two fairs in a short hop w/ Marth. If you make something possible it should be something that you can do with a little practice, meaning something you can just get better at by playing with your friends and having fun. Not spending time outside of matches just working on l-cancelling and ****. Anyway I'd just like to see SSBB reduce the technical aspects down to a minimum.

Thank you oh so much. Down with technicality! Start the new revolution!

...

and actually have fun while doing so.

 

[PudgeSX]

the technicality of SSBM is what makes the game so deep, true that it might seem unfair at times with certain character specific abilities, but the people that learned how to do those things earned it with practice and dedication. SSBM isnt just a simple fighting game, do you see the depth and skill it takes to even contend with some of the greats?

if you see the game as just a means of having fun w/o much technical skill then play with those same people, i personally do enjoy that side time by myself at times learning new moves and improving what i already know how to do

alot of those people who say that SSBB should decrease the technicality seem like they themselves can't do the same as well and are hoping that SSBB will provide them the means to actually compete with those "skilled" players. to these people all i can say is to keep practiceing and learn to actually play with that kind of intensity and youll see how rewarding it really can be..

P.S. sorry if im wrong about that last paragraph with some of you guys, dont want to diss your skill as well, just trying to state a point

 

[GAwes]

i never get on here, but anyone who wants the game more simple is a *******

 

[Rohins]

I don't understand it. If people want to be better at the game, work at it. Don't complaina about how X move is so difficult, or how you hope that the next game will be "easy to master".

With this mentality you still won't be able to compete. Those who are dedicated will work on strategies in place of the technical skills and will still own those who play just for fun.

What's next, "Remove mindgames from SSBB!"? Good luck with that one.

 

[odinm4gick]

It really just boils down to how much fun one has vs how much technical skill they wish to put in. I know that with my group of friends we tend to not play uber like and just play to have fun w/o practacing for hours on end and that's just fine. I also have a friend who hangs with the elite of Arizona and they spend hours on end learning every trick in the book to win. That's fine as well. But these two types of play should never be in the same room because no matter what, one group will be un happy while playing.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

I don't really know why my post was put into this thread. It was intended to be a stand-alone thread.

I love wavedashing and think it should be kept in the game. My point is that there are dozens of highly technical strategies that are used because they are affective. To me these highly technical aspects, hold others (those who aren't mindlessly addicted) back from enjoying a game that is very in depth.

Chess does not require massive amounts of technical skill to perform. You just move your hand and place the piece on the board. Thought is all that matters in chess, not how much dexterity you have.

I'm sorry if this message upsets those people who spent countless hours, practicing so they can l-cancel everything flawlessly. What I want to do is make it so that it doesn't take countless hours to get to point A. This will be done by simply making the system easier to use. The game is proven to contain vast amounts of mind games already, this is why I like Smash Brothers, not the mindless technical BS.

To me this is analogous to technology in the real world. People come out with new technologies that make things easier. Where would we be right now without the help of computers, still doing everything out by hand. No calculators, no programs to graph functions, no computer programs to analyze the stress in a bridge. Nope I'd say we'd be a lot farther behind in the world right now.

So by making these highly technical strategies, less technical and easier to apply, we'd have a whole lot more people working to make the game more in depth rather than the current 100 best players in the world that dictate what are viable strategies and what aren't. What if l-cancelling was as easy as teching? How much sooner do you think wavedashing would have been discovered and applied in matches? How many more people would have fell in love with Smash Brothers as a competitive fighting game?

As for SSBB, I'll say this... I'd expect that there will still be new highly technical strategies that will come about if you made l-cancelling easier, jump cancelling, dash dancing and pivoting a whole lot easier. However at least in my opinion, the game would much further along much sooner if at least the initial technical aspects were made easier.

Finally as a last point. The beauty of Smash Brothers as a fighting, game at least in my opinion, is the ability to perform any move merely by pressing A or B and a direction or lackthereof on the control stick.

Compare that to Street Fighter and Mortal Combat where you have to press twenty-directions on the d-pad and then the correct button on the control stick to perform a special move. Don't you think that's a bit excessive when you could simply press the down B and pull up a turnip? Think about how much longer it would have taken for you to find out how to use one of the coolest parts about Peach in the game if it took months of practice to be able to pull up a turnip at will and quickly.

Do you even think Peach would have been a viable character without turnips being easily pulled? What if people just now were figuring out how great a character Peach is? I'd have to say the game would be completely different and a whole lot less in depth than it is now.

Peach characters would be complaining that now anyone can play Peach because her turnips could be pulled by even the newest character to the game.

I must disagree, removing the highly technical aspects of performing moves (perfect timing of numerous button pushes) only adds to the overall progression of the game. You have more players capable of performing moves A, B, C, and D, therefore more people will be able to discover more uses for moves A, B, C, and D.

 

[FatalTwitch1212]

I don't really know why my post was put into this thread. It was intended to be a stand-alone thread.

I love wavedashing and think it should be kept in the game. My point is that there are dozens of highly technical strategies that are used because they are affective. To me these highly technical aspects, hold others (those who aren't mindlessly addicted) back from enjoying a game that is very in depth.

Chess does not require massive amounts of technical skill to perform. You just move your hand and place the piece on the board. Thought is all that matters in chess, not how much dexterity you have.

I'm sorry if this message upsets those people who spent countless hours, practicing so they can l-cancel everything flawlessly. What I want to do is make it so that it doesn't take countless hours to get to point A. This will be done by simply making the system easier to use. The game is proven to contain vast amounts of mind games already, this is why I like Smash Brothers, not the mindless technical BS.

To me this is analogous to technology in the real world. People come out with new technologies that make things easier. Where would we be right now without the help of computers, still doing everything out by hand. No calculators, no programs to graph functions, no computer programs to analyze the stress in a bridge. Nope I'd say we'd be a lot farther behind in the world right now.

So by making these highly technical strategies, less technical and easier to apply, we'd have a whole lot more people working to make the game more in depth rather than the current 100 best players in the world that dictate what are viable strategies and what aren't. What if l-cancelling was as easy as teching? How much sooner do you think wavedashing would have been discovered and applied in matches? How many more people would have fell in love with Smash Brothers as a competitive fighting game?

As for SSBB, I'll say this... I'd expect that there will still be new highly technical strategies that will come about if you made l-cancelling easier, jump cancelling, dash dancing and pivoting a whole lot easier. However at least in my opinion, the game would much further along much sooner if at least the initial technical aspects were made easier.

Finally as a last point. The beauty of Smash Brothers as a fighting, game at least in my opinion, is the ability to perform any move merely by pressing A or B and a direction or lackthereof on the control stick.

Compare that to Street Fighter and Mortal Combat where you have to press twenty-directions on the d-pad and then the correct button on the control stick to perform a special move. Don't you think that's a bit excessive when you could simply press the down B and pull up a turnip? Think about how much longer it would have taken for you to find out how to use one of the coolest parts about Peach in the game if it took months of practice to be able to pull up a turnip at will and quickly.

Do you even think Peach would have been a viable character without turnips being easily pulled? What if people just now were figuring out how great a character Peach is? I'd have to say the game would be completely different and a whole lot less in depth than it is now.

Peach characters would be complaining that now anyone can play Peach because her turnips could be pulled by even the newest character to the game.

I must disagree, removing the highly technical aspects of performing moves (perfect timing of numerous button pushes) only adds to the overall progression of the game. You have more players capable of performing moves A, B, C, and D, therefore more people will be able to discover more uses for moves A, B, C, and D.

I agree. I've spent endless days playing around in training try to master sertain things so I could compete on a high level. Training... That was the frustrating, boring, stressful. But wait, a video game? I know all video games can frsutrate people, bileave me, i play world of warcraft, but the time most people put into SSBM to practice; its like their way of life!

I'm, and the post b4 me, are just saying that; It would be way more enojoyable and fun if brawl didn't have all the technical mumbojumbo, and still ahve fun with it

 

[WOT]

i think what you're trying to say is
i suck at this game and NINTENDO MADE IT TOO HARD

 

[Sneak8288]

the technical aspect of the game should b kept... it seperates the good players from the bad (not exactly bad but u know).... and still just because the game could harder for others you can still have fun even with all the technical stuff... y take it out now u could almost b just as technical in the 1st smash brother because you could still short hop and z-cancel... its like u guys want to make the game too easy and not let the people who work hard to win get any credit

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Back to the analogy about things in the real world.

Should we not advance our technology for fear of the loss of jobs? I say no. If things can be made easier, the hardcore fans can put more into other aspects of the game.

Anyway I think this discussion should be moved into its own thread and not clog up the wavedashing thread.

Please continue the discussion on the technicality of SSBB in this thread.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=85145

 

[FatalTwitch1212]

lol no not extactly.

Regardless of how they make it, any fight game will require strats and precise techniques to win a battle. Braw will still be a fast paste game and some old smash techs to. I really doupt they will take wave dashing out, but certain things like Super Wave Dash? Its cool, but uneeded. And it dosn't seperate the good from the bad. It seperates time played lol. What makes you good is seeing though people, and you can only get good at that if you practice against other, not for 10 hours in training mode. People don't see it, but wave dashing isn't needed to be pro; mind games for sure, but wave dashing is just a kind of mind game. If anything its used so muhc that its not longer a mind game lol.

But back to the point I wanted to make ><. BRAWL! Look at it this way. Anyone who is good at highly complicated teching and stratigies in Melee is an easy target for Nintendo. Just like from 64 to gamecube. All the hardcore smash 64 fans like myself would save up just for a cube and a game. Likewise, I'll probably do the same with Wii and Brawl. The thing is they are trying to pull other fans in who lost it in SSBM who ither didn't like the game based on play-style, or who stoped knowing that it would take to much work to get to a high lv of gameplay(some even say the game was to fast paste, lol but i hope they don't cahnge that). I hate to say this, but Nintendo loves money just as much as they love their fans.

Change is what the new days are about. Companies market what sells, and bands sing what racks in crying 15 year old girls. Why do you think Hawthorn Heights exists? Because they make a **** load of money!

I'm very intrested to see the change in brawl. Good or not i'll buy it. If i dont' like it, or you dont, keep playing old school. You keep what you get and play what you love.

 

[SiegK]

A

Basically I'd like to see short hopping either be a completely different button from full jumping. I'd also like to see l-cancelling be as easy to do as teching. You just hit the L or R button when you are almost on the ground, not at the exact frame that you hit.

Finally I'd like to see them get rid of some of the character specific things that extreme technical skill can produce. These are things like waveshining with Fox, or two fairs in a short hop w/ Marth. If you make something possible it should be something that you can do with a little practice, meaning something you can just get better at by playing with your friends and having fun. Not spending time outside of matches just working on l-cancelling and ****. Anyway I'd just like to see SSBB reduce the technical aspects down to a minimum.

Talking to everyone:
Ok Well I had a really good point that I just destroyed but I’m gunna try and redo it, so sorry if a lot of posts have been set prier to my post.

Talking to RedSoxFan3:
I do not believe that these assets of the game should be taken down or dumb-down in anyway possible. They bring a whole new view and level of skill to the game. Ok, ok, so maybe it is practically, frankly impossible, but that just means that they put that extra push into their play.

Talking to everyone:
I know SSBM is a great game without them. Remember when you got the game when it 1st came out? You didn’t know about WDing, but you bought it anyway, you got it cause you clearly knew that SSB for the N64 was one of the greatest games (Super Mario 64 still holed crown) ever made. You didn’t know the ‘secret’ ‘technical’ moves of the game, WDing, L-canceling, short hoping, moonwalking, exetra. And yeah, if they weren’t in the game, and if we never knew about them it would still be the most awesome fighting game. But that’s the thing, we do know! Haha. Right guys? We do know, and its really fun. So what if some of the moves weren’t suppose to be in the game, if they were a glitch or not, if they just weren’t noticed until the public eye founded them. There hear and that’s what maters.

Talking to RedSoxFan3:
Now, being aware of these moves and techniques, we cant just take them out. Maybe they aren’t needed, maybe the game would still be awesome. But you know, everyone knows, the game would get sort of old, with out these techniques. There would be a point where you could do everything, it would be too bare. These moves bring new skill and more depth to the knowledge of the game. I say YAY for these “extreme technical skills”. I do not envy someone who pummels me into the ground, I applaud them for owning face on me (even though I can do these moves, I still remember a time when I was newb to them) all over the field. I say NAY for dumbing-down these moves and YAY for the extra skill needed to be a true Smasher and I say YAY for Brawl to uphold the skill. These skills are not needed to become a great Smash player, they just add a new kick, a new Lvl for those who strive to improve their game. Now where is the harm in that?

SMASH ON!

 

[StellaNova]

Bravo. i second this notion.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

Tech skill is good. I'm not amazing at SSBM yet, but i love watching players like Ken and Isai and Chu do their thing. Perhaps they have no life, but it is something to be appreciated. The game needs all that - SSBM is a deep game and Nintendo should keep it that way. Melee will be better than Brawl if they make SHFFLCing as easy as pressing a button and a direction. As for wavedashing, Nintendo probably didn't mean for it to be in the game. I think L-cancelling was even in SSB? And short-hopping was definitely intentional. But wavedashing looks like what it is - sliding on the ground after a landing.... the dust is evidence that it was accidental. Also, if they had wanted wavedashing in the game, why would they have made it so much more advantageous to certain characters (Luigi, Ice Climbers, Fox) and so incredibly useless to others? Anyone who can appreciate Aniki's incredible wavedash-less game can imagine that the game could be good without wave-dashing. I love wavedashing too, but if Nintendo takes it out, then that's how they wanted the game to be played. Sorry all you waveshining people. And mind games are ultimately the most important. SSBB could figure out ways to make the game trickier. I think it's what makes the game fun. Tech skill is cool for a bit, but when you find out how much time has to be invested... It would be a shame to all the players who spent a lot of time mastering the techniques to take them out though. The waveland in the video is a roll... Mario is facing the other direction at the end of it. Last time i checked, wave-dashes put you in the same direction. Anyways, I think wavedashing should stay along with all the other tech stuff... but made less effective and more situational. And add more options for mindgames.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

Also, Brawl should be made so that good SSBM players will naturally be good at brawl too! I don't think Ken wants to be forgotten as that player who was good at that stupid old game. I don't think we want him to be either.

So yeah... keep the tech skill, take out anything that is completely cheap (infinites), and make the movesets more interesting - more mind games.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I srill hope it's different enough to have to learn again, I don't just want melee 1.5.

 

[SiegK]

Yeah, Id like to see things added to the game, but not taken out.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Who are you agreeing with?

 

[FatalTwitch1212]

Hhahahaha sieg is right. But lots of things need to change. 1, I demand short hoping to be a seprate button or a combanation of buttons because its anoying as hell XD.

All of you say your a fan of tech and practiceing complicated moves. How bout we put in a Diagnal to the smash and attack brackets, aye? Fox now has a move called insta-death. All you do is press diagnal down + B and he automaticly goes bezerk and shines everything in the vicinty to death. rolf XD, "no contest"

 

[.wonk]

I really don't care either way. Wavedashing would be nice to keep, but I really wouldn't care if they took it out. Knowing Nintendo though, I think they will take it out. Just a guess. It is a little weird from an appearence standpoint... Especially with WiFi coming out, the n00bs will all think you guys are cheating. Why have them think that when you could cream them without wavedashing?
Of course, that is an extremely bad excuse on my part. I just have a feeling Nintendo will take it out to be more friendly to the less skilled players. Especially since everyone will still get Brawl anyway without wavedashing. (Or at least, that is what they would think.)

 

[MonkeyMan]

Making it less competitive totally takes out the point of making it online! And if it ain't brok don't fix it! plus wave dashing is too cool to take out. (i'll be majorly pissed if they do) the onlything need changing is maybe a NEW adv. tech Having trobble thinking of one. but i mean if you have seperate buttons for short hopping and ways to make any of the current adv. techs easyer with out adding a new one, the quality of play would probably be far less intense. maybe adding a kind of counter or something, like if you power shield an attack you coul easily follow up with a string of moves of your own. or maybe air grabs that'd be nice

 

[BAR]

i think that the you should be able to charge a smash attack immediatly after you wavedash, as well as being able to L cancel b moves, if i could take anything out it would be the cheapness of marths sword, and falcos laser...... i hate that laser!

 

[phish-it]

i think that the you should be able to charge a smash attack immediatly after you wavedash, as well as being able to L cancel b moves, if i could take anything out it would be the cheapness of marths sword, and falcos laser...... i hate that laser!

Or Peach's downsmash.....

 

[Sol]

Or Peach's downsmash.....

or captain falcons falcon punch,or ganondorfs warlock punch

 

[BAR]

or falco and fox's shine.............