Wario's Match-Ups!

[Jigglymaster]

I'm not gonna input a whole lot about the Jiggly-Wario matchup right now but I do know that Jigglypuff can grab realise Wario into a garunteed Fair or Rest (both air realise only). So if Wario gets grabbed by puff make sure to realise yourself on the ground and not in the air. Stages like PKMN Stadum 1 let Jiggs force Wario to air release if she grabs you from one of the platforms.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I play this match-up a lot with the second best Wario in the country (Apollo).

The basic aerial spacing game is VERY even, Wario essentially does his usual jump/double jump/air dodge baiting game and throws in Nair and occasionally dair for pressure. Jigglypuff spaces with bair primarily, and her usual Nair/dair/fair/Uair shenanigans.

Puff beats his spacing (slightly) head-on just by the nature of the characters, but only when Wario commits to something, so he can realistically push her off stage and capitalize if he makes all good decisions. Further more, if Puff messes up she's going to get Uair'd.

Waft is brutal. It can be predicted, baited and punished just like anything, but it forces Puff to play very conservative while he has it.

The bike is an interesting dynamic, if Puff has a decent lead tires are the only real way Wario can get in (non-committal puff is scary too, not just Wario). However, she can use tires really well (bouncing tire wall + aerials, throwing it forward and catching in the same jump). Not to mention that Wario grabbing the bike is a prime gimp opportunity, which brings us to punishes.

Puff punishes a lot harder than you'd expect. Her aerials string neatly and she can quite reliably follow him off-stage and hit him out of bike. Wario also seems very susceptible to rest in my experience; Nair strings into it easily, and a lot of his punishment moves are considerable commitments if you consider Rest (fsmash, shielded aerials). Pound will eat through any spacing or timing error from Wario and put her in a very favourable position.

Puff is going to have a lot of difficulty killing if she doesn't have the lead and can't land rest, and it's a very important factor in the match-up. Puff will not have that much trouble killing if Wario has to commit, that's a misconception.

All in all, it's very based on who gets the lead at the start, and who gets the first kill. An understanding of momentum is integral to winning as either character. -2 sounds reasonable.

Edit: Oh, and grab release is basically inconsequential if the Wario is half decent.

 

[Labernash]

+2 Wario.

Grab Release to Rest isn't guaranteed, you can jump or air dodge. Maybe even nair, don't really remember.

Puff is really bad, haha... Don't under estimate her low % strings, though. Also don't forget she can fly, so watch you bike recovery... General stuff! Her airspeed is better so watch out when she gets near because she will cross you up quicker than a pirate with a treasure map and you will be stuck in a bad position. Her running speed is so bad you can roll in this MU as a safe decision sometimes.

Butt taunt.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I am 99% sure GR Rest is guaranteed.

To elaborate on the rolling thing, if you roll through Puff you're going to get hit hard. But rolling away is sometimes viable.

 

[Osennecho]

+2 Wario IMO. For many reasons Grim listed especially the waft. Thing scares me to the point I never play Puff against warios after it broke my shield once. Was a friendly, but we were taking the match seriously. Sigh.... dat star KO.

 

[SoulPech]

I am 99% sure GR Rest is guaranteed.

To elaborate on the rolling thing, if you roll through Puff you're going to get hit hard. But rolling away is sometimes viable.

GR rest is not guaranteed. The only way it works if it's on a slanted ledge. however, you can do a fair follow up on a GR. I also have played this match-up a couple times and it's difficult to tell because there are so MANY ways to play Wario (using bike, wheels, camping, aerials, etc.) alot of aerials that wario has can outrange us, which means we'd have to play a bait game. The only move that has a high priority is his Nair...Pound trades with it often. Not to mention, wario lives forever and can kill us at 50 with a waft or 80 with a fresh uair (70 if DI'd poorly). Our advantage to this fight is that we have a better baiting game, better air mobility, and can kill early if we do it correctly. Also, if Wario's bike is destroyed, both players have a good item game (Wario's a little better)

However, i feel if Wario has the lead, it's an uphill -2 for Puff, but if Puff has the lead, It's more even or even a -1. Though I think if Puff has a wheel, she has some early string of hits (Wheel + Bair + Grab, which does about 35-40%

 

[xzx]

xzx: +2
Grim Tuesday: +2
Labernash: +2
Osennecho: +2
SoulPech: +1/+2

I would say Jigglypuff's best tool in this MU got to be Pound.

 

[Iota]

Pound forces her to commit far too much for it to be her best tool. I'd say her best tool is bair. Be careful with your aggressive options and don't land next to Puff. If you air dodge into Puff there's a good chance of getting rested. I'd put it at +2 Wario for the reasons others have stated.

 

[SoulPech]

it's actually a mix of both pound and bair. the benefit with using pound on wario is that it takes away half of his shield. 2 pounds and it breaks...or when it gets smaller it can be angled, which can hit wario. Also, Puff's Uair can beat Wario's Dair or trades, but still does more damage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My vote is also +1/+2, I just decided to be decisive

Apollo doesn't have access to the internet at the moment, but I talked to him recently and he co-signed everything I said, and he thinks the match-up is "+1.5"

 

[xzx]

xzx: +2
Grim Tuesday: +1/+2
Labernash: +2
Osennecho: +2
SoulPech: +1/+2
Iota: +2
Apollo: +1/+2

Jigglypuff's down angled Pound from above is a suprise attack. It is good against Wario, since it is a lil' disjointed. Also, I don't think this MU is +1. Wario is too heavy and Jigglypuff is too light. Thats why it is not +1, IMO. "+1.5" is the right ratio though, but ratios ending with "0.5" doesn't really exist in this ratio system. That's why (IMO) +5 - (-5) is a way better ratio system. Then this MU would have been +2 (out of +5).

I would appreciate if you who have claimed this MU to be "+1/+2" really could decide, because that would make my job here easier. =P (I know that +2 is in majority so far.) Also, more ratios Warios!!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Even if we all said +1, the +2s would outnumber us.

 

[LOE1]

i wanted to say +3 for a while, but im convinced its +2 now

wario has all da tools he needs for puff. waft kills at like 50, uair at like 70 when she is above you. nair puffs pound for a punish. if she tries to use rollout, just bite it, but dont get predictable. also, having bike onstage will make her hit it, so free punish there. spacies could be a prob tho. just gotta be better at outspacing. puff is pretty darn easy for me, which is why i wanted a +3. but i'll stick to a +2 for now.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The misgivings people have about Puff's playstyle is funny, at least the MU will be -2 regardless of the reasons

 

[Iota]

I think they're more sad or frustrating than funny.

What Puff are you playing to give you those ideas Loe. With good DI uair shouldn't be killing till 80-100%. If the Puff has half a brain she's not going to be trying to use roll out against us, we have so much stuff to punish it.

 

[SoulPech]

I think they're more sad or frustrating than funny.

What Puff are you playing to give you those ideas Loe. With good DI uair shouldn't be killing till 80-100%. If the Puff has half a brain she's not going to be trying to use roll out against us, we have so much stuff to punish it.

i dunno how he got those ideas either. the only good puff he's played against was against me and I've never died to uair until 95-100%. I did try rollout once to see what he did and he bit me . Not to mention, I've only used Puff against him twice :/

Also, if we have to make a decicion, it's +2

 

[Biz_R_0]

I think everything I wanted to say has already been said, +2.

I'm honestly just waiting for vs. Link.

 

[LOE1]

ived had my share of wifi puff, plus i teamed with a really good puff at apex. puff can die at 70 if she is like high above wario, not on the ground lol.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's good to hear that we're basing the MU ratio off of wifi and who we've teamed with.

 

[xzx]

xzx: +2
Grim Tuesday: +1/+2
Labernash: +2
Osennecho: +2
SoulPech: +2
Iota: +2
Apollo: +1/+2
LOE1: +2
Biz_R_0: +2

Allrighty, let's move on to Link. I honestly think this MU is +1 to Wario, but I wanna see the discussions before I even state something. :>

 

[Rizen]

Wario vs Link:

It could be -1 or -2 for Link. The main reason MUs are that bad for Link is the gimping factor. If Link makes any errors offstage he's down a stock and Wario has good tools to gimp him with. Otherwise -1. Link can be crafty and recover; it's not "Link offstage means he's free" like some people think but he is in a very bad position.

Link's pros
*Link walls off Wario decently with projectiles and good reach.
*All around better disjointed reach with attacks.
*Link builds free damage by playing keep away when he can.
*Zair and Bombs cannot be eaten by attacks like weaker projectiles can
*Several aerials landing cancel. Of special note, Fair walls Wario out really well with almost no lag.
*Wario has no CG on Link.
*Link can shield grab Fsmash and attacks with good shield push because his long tether grab.
*Link does have enough power to KO Wario without racking up a ton of damage.
*Link can live forever off the top of the stage. For example surviving Wario's Uair at 153% on Brinstar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bMvey0Dpk&feature=player_detailpage#t=192s
*Link has a decent intercepting game with projectiles and close to the stage aerials so he can at least add damage.
*Most of Link's options can beat Wario's bike, air or ground.
*Link does well on many of Wario's good stages like Brinstar (when it was legal) because his platform/camping game.
*Link has decent combo breaker options and Wario doesn't have options that murder Link for a ton of guaranteed damage like Sheik's Ftilt or DDD's CG. Link needs good reads though.

Link's cons (Wario's advantages)
*Wario has better weight, air movement and recovery.
*Link's grab has a normal situation ground release so Link can't pull grab release tricks like some characters.
*Wario also has power.
*As mentioned, Link is vulnerable offstage. Wario can gimp him many ways including a simple run off Nair .
*Link's arrows and boomerang are easily eaten by attacks.
*Wario's Fart gets Link offstage if he's on and gimps crazy well if Link's off.
*Wario's crazy air mobility lets him jump circles around Link once he gets in.
*Wario's Fsmash armor wrecks Link's lag and wins hit trades.
*Wario doesn't have bad stages like Link but with recent stage list reductions () Link still can ban Frigate and do well.
*Link has a bad time trying to chase Wario if he has the lead. Wario timing Link out is very hard to deal with. Link is worse at timing Wario out because bad mobility and the offstage factor.
*Wario's faster/less lag.

It's about Link spacing and Wario trying to get in. Wario wins this game and has better payoff but not by too much. Link gets punished hard. Fart is a really annoying factor that hurts Link because Link's bad mobility/recovery can't get around it if Wario's smart. If Link plays smart it's an uphill climb but doable. If Link's stupid/predictable Wario wrecks him.


Kudos for keeping the MU discussions alive btw. Most characters can't.

 

[Labernash]

+2 Wario.

Shield zair to an OoS nair to a nair to an offstage fair. Stock 1.

 

[Rizen]

+2 Wario.

Shield zair to an OoS nair to a nair to an offstage fair. Stock 1.

Assuming Link can't space Zair, buffer landings, DI and recover, yes.

 

[LOE1]

i wanna say +1. link walls me out too much :|

but im bad vs like all low tiers, so there's that

 

[Biz_R_0]

Link completely outranges Wario with his dastardly disjointed d-hitboxes, which would be great if that wasn't where the advantages stopped. Link has so much lag it's like you're always online and has one of the worst off-stage games in Smash history, both of which are easily punishable by the fat man. Also I'd say Link is the worst character in general, so +2 75:25 Wario.

 

[Rizen]

I get the feeling some people haven't played a good Link.

75/25 is at least a +3 and maybe +4 equivalent. Wario at best has a solid advantage +2.

 

[Biz_R_0]

+1 is 60:40, +2 is 70:30, +3 is 80:20, +4 is 90:10. 75:25 would be +2.5, basically.

Also, you really can't expect too much from personal experience with characters like this. I'd say theory analysis would be better than basing everything off that one Link you played in '09.

 

[Rizen]

The ratios don't transfer consistently. It's best to not compare the systems.

To an extent. Comparing it to ratios doesn't really work, but if you're a tournament player you could consider +1 as "somewhat uphill but not much worse than even", +2 as "I'd rather not play this but it's doable with enough practice", +3 as "I need to avoid this matchup badly, it's very unrealistic to win" and +4 as "there's almost a 0% chance of winning if the opponent knows what to do". Because smash games are pretty balanced, most matchups fall in the -2-+2 range, barring matchup-defining exploits or plain bad characters.

I guess the one weakness is that you might feel there's something inbetween +2 and +3, at least when you start comparing matchups in the same tier. As one of the people who will some day be crucified for this system, I will hint that I feel 65:35 matchups are more or less missing. I'd usually group them with +2/-2, but that's just my opinion. The original thought was that +3 is quite severe and +4 should be a rare extreme saved for the worst of the worst.

Edit:
Theory's never been a good representation of Link.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I'm going to keep directly translating the systems until I'm allowed to say +2.5

And if we're not going by theory; I've never lost against link, +4 Wario. (not really)

 

[Rizen]

That's my input, for what it's worth.

Good luck and keep doing work Warios

 

[Beat11]

Well basically, the match is pretty straightforward and simple. Link wants to zone and wall Wario out while Wario wants to get in and destroy Link. Simple really and at first glance, it seems to be perfectly even matchup. But alas, it's not. Link has the tools to actually zone Wario out, believe it or not. But the problem comes when Wario gets in and does massive damage plus potential gimping may follow. He can easily turn the tables on Link with his combos to negate all the chip damage Link does with his zoning/camping. Bombs help a lot if you know how to use them. They give Link more options and I can't tell you how many times I caught an overly aggressive Wario off gaurd with an invincibomb, z drop etc. why I try to do is keep a bomb out at all times to give me the options I need to maintain my space. Easy said than done though.

Another big factor to the matchup is Wario's weight versus Link's lack of true kill set ups. Wario is heavy and can live for a while. Link has good kill power but no set ups and he is very punishable if he misses, especially by Wario. All Link "kill set ups" involve Link doing something to force a mistake from the opponent and punishing with a kill move. A smart player will hardly fall for these and given Wario's great mobility, Link is gonna have a hard time landing a kill blow. With that being said, Link MUST play this mu very carefully, patiently and slowly to stand a chance at winning. Impatient Links get eaten alive and if they don't get eaten alive, the Wario wasn't doing his job.

Last important to contemplate Is when Wario gets a solid lead. This alone can make the matchup pretty one sided as this forces Link to attack him which takes Link out of his comfort zone. Wario is good at playing runaway but the main problem with this is that Link puts himself at extreme risk by doing something he is not even good at. Approaching. This allowing to bypass his zoning and punish Link's mistakes putting him at an even bigger lead. The only real solution to this is to never let him get the lead. But again, easier said than done.

Summary
Link wants to keep Wario and make take damage trying to get in. Wario wants to get a good jump in to run Link out of his turtle shell. Link has to play patiently and flawlessly while Wario has more room for error. A patient Wario usually works a lot better than an overly aggressive Wario. Typically, this match will be dragged out unless Wario gets a good gimp or Link makes too many fatal mistakes.

+2 for Wario IMO. I've lost to Warios too many times because of mistakes I've made and getting punished badly for them. This really isn't a matchup for error. I play offline BTW.

 

[Labernash]

I've played AeroLink. So.

 

[Huggles828]

I main Link and second Wario. It's right on the border of +1/+2 Wario's favor (you could argue either way). I'd say it juuust qualifies as a +2 personally due to Link not having as much margin for error.

As Wario you want to find an opening and abuse it; nair, fair, dair, jabs, grabs, don't let Link get too far away. Just stay in Link's personal bubble since he can't reliably force you out and really struggles up close against Wario. Keep pressure on him a lot. Don't give him any breathing room. That said, good Links play really fast, so don't overestimate how much time you have. Watch Legan for a good idea of how fast Link can be.

Zair is really a lot nastier than you're thinking since it's 2 hits, making it basically impossible to power shield, and good Links will time it so you can't just shield it and go in, plus we'll be using it retreating. Honestly, I don't know if I'd want to let off if I got a lead as Wario; Link does best in this MU when he actually gets a chance to breathe and get set up and keep Wario out. I'd only milk a lead if it was substantial since letting off a little is giving Link his best opportunity to catch up.

Link has a real chance if he can keep Wario out and avoids getting gimped. Good Links know how to not get gimped so don't expect any freebies if you get him offstage, but Wario has the tools to abuse any errors on the Link's part.

Outside of edgeguarding, both characters will live a long time. Personally, playing both, I'd actually say Link lives a little longer than Wario overall (minus getting gimped). Wario will have better setups in this MU though and an easier time getting kills.

If Wario can reliably catch Link's bombs that helps a lot since you can nair/fair boomerangs I'm pretty sure.

I've played against Dynomite and DRN a good bit. Micaelis has seen my Wario and Link I think. I know Reflex also plays a little Link so he'd probably be a really good person to ask.

 

[xzx]

Yeah, I agree with much of what Rizen, Beat11 and Huggles828 have concluded. Link has nice range to outzone Wario, but when Wario gets in, Link is in trouble. Wario can punish many things Link has (most notable waft) since Link has much ending lag in most of his attacks, but some attacks Link has are suprisingly fast/low ending lagged, like zair, bair, nair and fair. Links projectiles helps him in this MU too. If Wario has a bike and Link is offstage, that tossed bike is going to be really nasty against Link. Both can kill (Wario is better at doing so) and both survives long (bar gimping). Basically this MU is "Safe defensive play" vs "Trying to get in and cause mischief", and I feel this MU is between +1 and +2, but +2 is more accurate, hence the percentage lead Wario can abuse. Also the gimp factor.

Rizen: +1/+2
Labernash: +2
LOE1: +1
Biz_R_0: +2
Beat11: +2
Huggles828: +2
xzx: +2

 

[Waymas]

Yep its totally in warios advantage i have fought leo hes a pretty good link here from mexico. But yea wario can gimp link really easy with nair , fair , etc. Dont let link get some space , get some pressure on him and you'll be allright!

+2 Wario

 

[waldorf2007]

def +2
wario's gimp game on link is ridiculous
like a waft at 15 offstage kills
cuhrayzee
but link has good walling options, and there's bound to be some pretty good free damage before wario gets in.
I've never seen a wario NOT get in though
stay in close to link and don't give him a chance to start stupid jab shenanigans.
link can also stop wario very often with holding/throwing up bombs. wario can't really do that much to shield while there's a bomb above link. pretty much safe/unsafe shield pressure, throws get punished.

 

[Beat11]

Also, here is some other interesting things to note about this mu.

1. Wario's nair will easily eat through boomerangs and uncharged arrows. His nair will also get beat out in priority against a hard thrown bomb but he will be allowed to pass through it unharmed since it won't explode. His nair will beat out a soft thrown bomb and explode in his face. So Links if you throw a bomb, try to soft throw it a little more often to avoid him doing this. That's one way he can get in on you.

2. If you EVER BY THE GOOD GRACE OF GOD somehow manage to grab him by the edge of a platform or by the ledge with his feet dangling in the air, grab release to a buffered short hop (or full hop) dair. I'm pretty sure it's guaranteed but correct me if I'm mistaken. If you are not confident, stick to an up smash instead.

3. Wario's Uair out ranges Link's dair. Most of you already know this but I stress extreme importance in know this for those who don't. It can be the very thing that makes or breaks you sometimes.

4. For Links, get Warios tires if you can. For Warios, do not ever let Link grab a tire. Link is a great item character and a tire is EXACTLY what he needs to squander Wario's options while expanding his. Links, when you get a tire don't just throw it at him. You'll waste a great opprotunity to zone him out. Instead, start short hopping, z dropping and fast falling with the tire in front of you. With Link's incredibly short jump and falling and the tire bouncing up and down in front of you, you create a mini wall in front of you to keep him at bay. You can also down throw the tire to make it bounce higher for a bigger wall. Also another important note, try to make a habit of grabbing the tire by pressing z in the air. This action is literally 1 frame in total so it's the quicker and better way to pick up a bouncing tire. Insta throwing the tire down will also help quicken the walling process, leaving less holes in your defense. Basically, you wanna hold on to the tire and keep it active for as long as you possibly can. They are like better bombs so please take great care in keeping them. Now Wario has a few options against this. He can: shield the tire if he is in the position to do so to make it disappear, Fsmash to armor through it, fart through it, and maybe nair it or something or have a tire himself. If he has a tire, he is on even playing field so the zoning become null. He could probably nair a dropped bouncing tire but I don't think it will eat through a hard thrown down tire. Even if it does, Link is still free to attack Wario with his disjointed attacks so that's two attacks at once. It's unlikely that he will shield it as in he has to dash to it and shield and honestly, Wario's dashing kinda sucks. Link can also still attack or even grab him while he is trying to do that so yeah. Now what you gotta watch for is his Fsmash and fart. He can use these to catch you off gaurd if your not attentive. Only thing you can really do is predict and shield these. Just please be aware of these when doing this. One last thing, keep moving with it. Don't sit in one spot and do this. Then you allow him too much time to position and plan against you. Please be mindful and make the most out of tires. They really help. BTW this is just something I do against Warios. If it helps then great. If you don't understand it, it's fine. But these are my five cents(or a dollar) on this.

 

[Huggles828]

Yeah, don't let Link get tires. I love using tires against Wario when I play as Link. Pretty much all of Link's ATs with bombs work with tires too (lol tirestool dairing).

 

[Labernash]

Some of the highest quality input from the Link's; way to go, guys!

 

[Beat11]

Haha, no problem. We do our best!

Last but not least is the stages. I'll try to do the ones I know.

Pokemon stadium 1- there will be a lot of stalling during the transformations which could either go in your favor or be your burden depending on who is dictating the match and holding the lead. Nobody moves on the rock and fire transformations. The water transformation is a bit tricky due to windmill circle camping. The grass transformation has no significant effect on the game play. For Links, this stage can either go really heavily towards your favor or it can work against you very easily. Your going to stay defensive during the whole match practically trying to tack on damage against while he tries to get in. The stage can help you a lot by making it even harder for him to approach you during the transformations which will run the timer, causing him to have less time to work on a comeback and play impatiently. That's if you can get a good lead however. If he gets a good lead, he can do the exact same to you so it all depends on you. This stage can be great or terrible. It's my personal favorite so it may be a bit biased but whatever. It can help out very turtle-like Links like myself hold a solid defense. You gotta know the stage though to use it well.

Smashville- This is a very even playing field for these characters so it's another personal favorite. The platform invites both characters to perform some sweet platform canceling tricks which can make this match a bit speedy. Wario also has a one hit kill glitch with his bike. This is nothing significant but please don't let them catch you with this. You'll feel like you just started playing the game if you do. There are no other real significant things about this stage.

Rainbow cruise- Don't go. Ban always. What's understood doesn't need to be explained. Link actually pretty good here but only against characters who aren't. Wario isn't one of those characters. Unless you want to get Uaird to death while he jumps and run circles around your fatness, don't go here. Brinstar is even better than this.