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Wario's Match-Ups!

Flame Hyenard

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Here's the GR options for Captain Falcon from what I remember :

GR -> Up B (easiest to do, guaranteed)
GR -> DownSmash (not sure if guaranteed if buffered or not, but it's not an option to be underestimated)
GR -> UpSmash (can be SDI'd off, and even then it won't guarantee a KO at 120% with good DI from Wario)
GR -> AngledUp F-Smash
GR -> Knee (very precise to execute, but can kill at -100% on the edge of a stage)

Also, U-Air is a very good tool against Wario and one of Falcon's best moves. However, given Wario's mobility and weight, it can be hard for the bounty hunter to get around many of the anti-hero's moves. Captain Falcon is the 12nd/13rd heaviest character in the game (tied with Link, which is something for you guys to remember when you're going to discuss the Wario/Link MU later), and given his decent airspeed, Wario will at times have difficulties KOing Falcon.

I'll leave the rest for the other Falcon mains who are more experimented than I am. Feel free to correct any error I might have given :p

The last time the Wario/CF MU ratio was written down, it was slightly advantageous for Wario (60-40), and in my opinion, it is a correct rating. To me : 60-40 or +1 Wario.
 

Biz_R_0

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Wario's CG is barely a factor. If either of you are at higher percents it's not worth it, considering to do it you'd be vulnerable to grabs if he spot dodges or jabs and his grab-release options are 2gud for KOs (and if CF is at high percent, then, obviously, you can't do it). It's really only worth it if you're both at pretty low percents, and even then it's not something you'd go out of your way to do. Falcon also has good tools to deal with Wario, such as Uair, can combo into grab with an autocancelled Nair, and can zone out Wario if he doesn't have tires. However, Falcon is really not good off-stage and has an abysmal recovery that Wario can easily punish, making this MU +1/55:45 Wario.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Wario's CG is barely a factor, considering to do it you'd have to be in CF's grab range and his grab-release options are 2gud, making the risk not worth it.
Falcon gets a free ~20% from a grab-release, while we get up to 70%. We also have a much greater grab range. How is that anything close to not worth it?

EDIT: To clarify, many of Falcon's strings don't work very well if we're preemptively attempting to SDI away, and even if he moves quickly on the ground, our superior grab range, his generally poor approach game, and our ability to move away from uncomfortable positions make this a win in our favor by a sizable margin. Just...don't jump into his general space. I know you want to, and it feels like it should work well, but there's almost never a reason to, and that's the only way you put yourself at serious risk in this matchup. Make him come to you, and it's a decisive +2, I feel.
 

Tesh

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Close range, I'd say Falcon's jab gives him a much better shot at getting the grab, but landing the CG if you know how to do it is worth it if you are both at low percents.
 

teluoborg

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Correction Reflex : in order for Wario to grab he has to get into Falcon's jab range. And the fact that Falcon needs no particular timing to jab Wario (srsly autojab beats a lot of Wario's options), and that jabbing Wario means he's gonna jump away or risk getting grabbed make that Wario's grab isn't something safe.

Now it's ok if you don't land your CG because Wario doesn't have a lot of trouble racking percents on Falcon. Your Uair and Nair do wonders in the matchup (Nair's landing animation is too low to be shieldgrabbed lol).

Also you say "make him come to you and it's a decisive -2".
My question is how ? What tools does Wario have to force Falcon to approach ? Falcon wins in pure range and can hold himself quite well in terms of burst range.

Which brings me to my main point : this matchup is pretty gay for whoever isn't in the lead.
If Falcon manages to get the lead and sits on it Wario will have a bad time. Same can be said for the opposite, except that Wario benefits even more from this situation because of Waft.

The only real advantage Wario has imo is that he has better kill options and will live slightly longer due to his better stats and recovery. The rest is very neutral in my eyes so it's either 0 or 1 depending on personal interpretation of numbers.

Information corner :
Grab release :
-Wario's best starters to avoid GRs are BF to be immune to GR>knee under the lowest platforms and SV to wait for the platform, which allows you to avoid all major releases if you spotdodge asap
-Falcon's best releases are Fsmash and up B for damage, pivot regrab to add a few more % and a mixup of Knee Dsmash and nipple Dair for KO. Expect to die from a grab starting 110%.
-Falcon's grab range sucks in width but rocks in height. Do not do things like a falling neutral B on Falcon's shield because he can grab you before you can.

Jab :
-Falcon's autojab will beat Wario's spotdodge, airdodge and most of his aerials.
-When getting jabbed, Wario's best option to avoid the grab is jump away (with a retreating Nair or something), his best options to beat Jab cancel are Nair or Bite (Bite will also beat jab>shield if you're close enough). I don't recommend to rely on SDI only to get away/behind Falcon because this won't get you far enough to not get grabbed.

I guess this is enough for now lol.

Ps oh yeah don't try to wariocide Falcon if he has his second jump and less than ~70% because you will die and he won't.
 

Biz_R_0

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^Pretty much everything I wanted to say (and more), said by someone who isn't horrible at explaining it without 20 edits.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Correction Reflex : in order for Wario to grab he has to get into Falcon's jab range. And the fact that Falcon needs no particular timing to jab Wario (srsly autojab beats a lot of Wario's options), and that jabbing Wario means he's gonna jump away or risk getting grabbed make that Wario's grab isn't something safe.

Now it's ok if you don't land your CG because Wario doesn't have a lot of trouble racking percents on Falcon. Your Uair and Nair do wonders in the matchup (Nair's landing animation is too low to be shieldgrabbed lol).

Also you say "make him come to you and it's a decisive -2".
My question is how ? What tools does Wario have to force Falcon to approach ? Falcon wins in pure range and can hold himself quite well in terms of burst range.

Which brings me to my main point : this matchup is pretty gay for whoever isn't in the lead.
If Falcon manages to get the lead and sits on it Wario will have a bad time. Same can be said for the opposite, except that Wario benefits even more from this situation because of Waft.

The only real advantage Wario has imo is that he has better kill options and will live slightly longer due to his better stats and recovery. The rest is very neutral in my eyes so it's either 0 or 1 depending on personal interpretation of numbers.

Information corner :
Grab release :
-Wario's best starters to avoid GRs are BF to be immune to GR>knee under the lowest platforms and SV to wait for the platform, which allows you to avoid all major releases if you spotdodge asap
-Falcon's best releases are Fsmash and up B for damage, pivot regrab to add a few more % and a mixup of Knee Dsmash and nipple Dair for KO. Expect to die from a grab starting 110%.
-Falcon's grab range sucks in width but rocks in height. Do not do things like a falling neutral B on Falcon's shield because he can grab you before you can.

Jab :
-Falcon's autojab will beat Wario's spotdodge, airdodge and most of his aerials.
-When getting jabbed, Wario's best option to avoid the grab is jump away (with a retreating Nair or something), his best options to beat Jab cancel are Nair or Bite (Bite will also beat jab>shield if you're close enough). I don't recommend to rely on SDI only to get away/behind Falcon because this won't get you far enough to not get grabbed.

I guess this is enough for now lol.

Ps oh yeah don't try to wariocide Falcon if he has his second jump and less than ~70% because you will die and he won't.
Shield Jab 1 -> Grab is a normal thing that we're already supposed to be doing on Ike, a character whose Jab has greater range and utility in general.

Falcon is not good at forcing anything against most characters who can abuse some sort of defensive position well (spotdodges, the ground when moving backward, etc.). Wario is really good at moving backward.

Hanging around with your Bike on the ground is great because it prevents Falcon from being able to use Jab and F-Tilt. It also doesn't prevent us from using anything substantial. Worst-case scenario, Falcon doesn't bother with it and Wario gets free tires, which can prevent grab-release stuff, help with general pressure, and increase Wario's burst range.

0-70% chaingrab, can reasonably combo from a lot more than Falcon (assuming the Wario is staying low to the ground and not taking unnecessary risks), edgeguards better, KOs better, benefits more from a stalemate.

It doesn't matter that autojab beats most of Wario's aerials when we're going to be keeping away with B-Air and N-Air, the only two that matter significantly in this matchup.

In my experience, aiming to be at the tip of Falcon's Jab is fine for SDI'ing back, since you'll already be trying to retreat after your apparently-failed B-Air.
 

BPx

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why are we discussing weird low tier mus before common high tier ones? not that i really care, i just don't have much input
 

Biz_R_0

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Falcon is not good at forcing anything against most characters who can abuse some sort of defensive position well (spotdodges, the ground when moving backward, etc.). Wario is really good at moving backward.

Which brings me to my main point : this matchup is pretty gay for whoever isn't in the lead.
If Falcon manages to get the lead and sits on it Wario will have a bad time. Same can be said for the opposite, except that Wario benefits even more from this situation because of Waft.
Just saying.
 

teluoborg

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Shield Jab 1 -> Grab is a normal thing that we're already supposed to be doing on Ike, a character whose Jab has greater range and utility in general.
Please do tell me more about how shielding in Falcon's jab range is a good idea. Do you use it often in practice ?

Falcon is not good at forcing anything against most characters who can abuse some sort of defensive position well (spotdodges, the ground when moving backward, etc.). Wario is really good at moving backward.
Well as I said before you can't really abuse your spotdodge like you would do against some characters, it's not hard to hold A on reaction to it. And what do you mean by moving backwards ?

Hanging around with your Bike on the ground is great because it prevents Falcon from being able to use Jab and F-Tilt. It also doesn't prevent us from using anything substantial. Worst-case scenario, Falcon doesn't bother with it and Wario gets free tires, which can prevent grab-release stuff, help with general pressure, and increase Wario's burst range.
Wrong, in the worst case scenario Wario ends up offstage without one of his best recovery tools because he was grabbed while trying to destroy his bike.
And the bike doesn't prevent grabs, obviously.
I don't know why so many people behave like ******* when it comes to the bike, but to me it's pretty clear : the moment this item lands on the stage the status quo of the game changes.
If Falcon is smart he will protect the bike instead of trying to break it, and if Wario tries to get near then it's just a good opportunity for a grab. If Wario doesn't try to approach it then good, it makes his offstage game far more vulnerable.
Tricks like extended hitboxes and bike Dtoss combos only work on people that don't know about the mechanics of the item, but if it's not the case and the Falcon knows what he's doing he's either too far for it to matter or close enough to get a free dashgrab.
Same deal for the tires : if Falcon shields them, the worst that can happen is a grab from Wario.

0-70% chaingrab, can reasonably combo from a lot more than Falcon (assuming the Wario is staying low to the ground and not taking unnecessary risks), edgeguards better, KOs better, benefits more from a stalemate.
If Wario is staying close to the ground he's staying in Falcon's dash grab zone, just saying. And neither of both characters should be taking unnecessary risks.
But I agree that Wario has better tools to edgeguard Falcon (not that Falcon can't edgeguard Wario or that he can't deal with Wario's edgeguard) and that Wario kills easier (though his kill options don't beat shield).

It doesn't matter that autojab beats most of Wario's aerials when we're going to be keeping away with B-Air and N-Air, the only two that matter significantly in this matchup.
Hum, those are 2 of the 3 aerials that get straight out ranged by Falcon's Uair, Bair and Utilt.
And then again, playing keeping away is nice and all but that means you must have the lead. Falcon too can keep Wario away when he has the lead, even if you don't seem enclined to believe it.

In my experience, aiming to be at the tip of Falcon's Jab is fine for SDI'ing back, since you'll already be trying to retreat after your apparently-failed B-Air.
Have you ever been raptor boosted for retreating a whiffed aerial right next to Falcon before ? Because that seems like a perfect opportunity.
 

Lord Chair

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this matchup is fake and gay for a whole lot of reasons, i could see it being 0 but i have yet to see this matchup being played amongst equally skilled people

in the meantime, +1
 

Biz_R_0

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Yeah, this is probably the most even low tier MU, but it's also the most horrid because the first guy past 80 loses the stock or gets timed out.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I'm still adamant about an (admittedly "weak") +2. I don't see it as any worse than a "strong" +1.

I'll respond to the earlier post when I'm not doing homework.
 

LOE1

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yea, people really said whats needed to be said already. guess stagewise, i'd cp frig/delfino. dont really see any stages falcon has a better advantage agaist wario, mabey FD, but falcon is **** at bf.

i'd say +1 wario because of kill power and mobility really.
 

teluoborg

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Yeah Falcon doesn't have any strong CP except FD that you should always ban, but he doesn't have any horrible stage either. So I guess you can CP on any stage that can interrupt grab releases (Delfino, Frigate, PS1).

I played Glutonny in pools on the 30th, should've recroded the matches. I 2 stocked him once and he 2 stocked me twice.
 

Tesh

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Yeah Falcon doesn't have any strong CP except FD that you should always ban, but he doesn't have any horrible stage either. So I guess you can CP on any stage that can interrupt grab releases (Delfino, Frigate, PS1).

I played Glutonny in pools on the 30th, should've recroded the matches. I 2 stocked him once and he 2 stocked me twice.
wouldn't YI help extend our CG while limiting his GR options (high platform gives him nothing right?)
 

teluoborg

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Under the center of the platform idk, but under the edges it can be low enough for up B or high enough for Wario to not even reach it.
I haven't played a lot against Wario on this stage tbh.
 

Biz_R_0

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Weird, I imagined that's probably where most CF/Wario matches would take place, as the Falcon would obviously ban SV and BF where the Wario would ban FD and presumably Lylat.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Please do tell me more about how shielding in Falcon's jab range is a good idea. Do you use it often in practice ?

Well as I said before you can't really abuse your spotdodge like you would do against some characters, it's not hard to hold A on reaction to it. And what do you mean by moving backwards ?

Wrong, in the worst case scenario Wario ends up offstage without one of his best recovery tools because he was grabbed while trying to destroy his bike.
And the bike doesn't prevent grabs, obviously.
I don't know why so many people behave like ******* when it comes to the bike, but to me it's pretty clear : the moment this item lands on the stage the status quo of the game changes.
If Falcon is smart he will protect the bike instead of trying to break it, and if Wario tries to get near then it's just a good opportunity for a grab. If Wario doesn't try to approach it then good, it makes his offstage game far more vulnerable.
Tricks like extended hitboxes and bike Dtoss combos only work on people that don't know about the mechanics of the item, but if it's not the case and the Falcon knows what he's doing he's either too far for it to matter or close enough to get a free dashgrab.
Same deal for the tires : if Falcon shields them, the worst that can happen is a grab from Wario.

If Wario is staying close to the ground he's staying in Falcon's dash grab zone, just saying. And neither of both characters should be taking unnecessary risks.
But I agree that Wario has better tools to edgeguard Falcon (not that Falcon can't edgeguard Wario or that he can't deal with Wario's edgeguard) and that Wario kills easier (though his kill options don't beat shield).

Hum, those are 2 of the 3 aerials that get straight out ranged by Falcon's Uair, Bair and Utilt.
And then again, playing keeping away is nice and all but that means you must have the lead. Falcon too can keep Wario away when he has the lead, even if you don't seem enclined to believe it.

Have you ever been raptor boosted for retreating a whiffed aerial right next to Falcon before ? Because that seems like a perfect opportunity.
As it's the only way to proactively get a grab on Falcon, it's surely a good idea sometimes, given that we get much more than he does from a grab at the percents where we care to grab in the first place. In my experience, I haven't done it much, because weaving and moving away both seem to benefit me more (though they're also easier to adjust to, since that's a lot of Wario's general gameplay), and I don't get to play Falcon that much (though I use him fairly often myself). I am remarkably bad at avoiding stuff and getting grabs, but I know other Warios who are certainly more proficient at it.

Spotdodge for Wario in this matchup is only good for making Falcon think twice about going for a standalone grab. His airdodge is much more effective in general because of the kind of control he maintains in mobility and speed. As far as moving backward goes, I'm talking about the same kind of camping you're talking about in walling out Wario, I imagine. Stick out hitboxes and protect your space, but if things get sour, you can usually reset the situation. Pivot grabbing is always safe for every (non-tether) character forever, retreating spacing options allow safety and a decent ability to threaten, etc.

Outside of specific matchups (like, King Dedede), I don't see much of a threat in not having your bike for recovery. Wario's recovery without the Forward-B is still about average when comparing it to the cast, mostly by virtue of his great horizontal aerial mobility (stupid airdodge). SDI edgeguard hits up and you won't have a problem with getting gimped unless you're bad and spoiled on your recovery. No Wario player who understands the situation would put himself at risk of getting grabbed by Falcon in order to break his bike; it's not at all worth it. The bike mostly stands to prevent Jab, which has already been mentioned as your go-to counter for a fair amount of Wario's possible options, as well as the only reliable way of landing a grab. As a result, this makes spotdodging much more potent, as a spotdodged grab should always be a free grab for Wario here, and Falcon's long-lasting hitboxes are generally unsafe as burst-range options.

Tires also stop autojab (slightly useful via Z-Drop; makes Falcon have to think about it a little), frame-trap landings and recoveries (especially when it's pretty predictable, as Falcon's tends to be), can prevent grab-release stuff when thrown into the air, and a tire on the ground can also prevent opponents from Jabbing, which would count as slight stage control. It's more than fair to say that the bike on the stage can have a substantial effect on the match, but it definitely doesn't help Falcon as much as many characters.

All of Falcon's (and most characters') grabs last for two frames. It's definitely easy to mix up via normal fall and fastfall (as Wario will most certainly be shorthopping around, regardless), rising and retreating aerials, and spotdodge in general, which is also made even more unreliable due to the input delay. Also, it's definitely outranged by pivot grab, which is a problem for Falcon doing standalone grabs in general.

Wario's ability to weave will still make counterplay unreliable if Wario mixes it up (though Falcon does get a lot out of successful hits), and B-Air will still catch you sometimes as a result.

The difference between keep-away is that Wario can actively benefit from the time going down, especially with his having to work less to deal damage and KO on average, the bike being a useful means of getting Falcon to want to fight (apparently), both bike and tires being slightly-to-somewhat useful here and there, as well as Waft always being a factor. Falcon only benefits from it if he's winning when the timer hits zero. I'll take my chances.

I know that a N-Air moving toward Falcon will hit him out of Raptor Boost, and that if Falcon uses it in a position to punish whiffed aerials, Wario can definitely bait it out with an empty jump and get much more out of it than Falcon would if he lands a Raptor Boost.

I once struggled with this matchup; I also thought it was relatively even at one point. Then I realized that if you change your play significantly (stay close to the ground, don't worry about applying much pressure in most situations, wait for Waft, don't fear having the Bike on stage), it gets much harder for Falcon. It's not just theorycraft; this isn't a matchup I've never seen in years or anything. I've done it, and I'm confident that it works well. Outside of general range, Falcon doesn't have a whole lot on a Wario that knows how to move well in this matchup.
 

zmx

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That's the thing with most low tiers. Anyone can claim to be top 5 material because hardly anyone seriously mains the characters at tourny level. And there are hardly any low tier events.
 

Biz_R_0

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Are we done with Falcon? I think everyone's pretty evenly separated into either what Reflex said or what Teluoborg said. More than that, though, I wanna talk about Jiggly/Wario, aka "what is the ground?"
 

teluoborg

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Well Reflex I agree with almost everything you say but I don't agree with your conclusion.

The main point of my post was that Falcon has answers to Wario's options and you reply that Wario has counters to Falcon's counters. But Falcon has options to counter Wario's counters etc etc.
Like for example he can Utilt, First Hit Nair or low Uair Wario if he's spotdodging over his bike, using the hitbox extension to catch the vulnerable frames.
Etc etc etc, the countering of counters can continue for a long time so it's basically a battle of who will read the opponent's actions better.

But unlike you, I don't see how that means it's a +2 for Wario.


One thing I disagree with is that without his bike Wario's recovery is ***, especially if he's not recovering from high and has to deal with reverse Uair and flub knee. Airdodge is so effective that it can be baited and Wario can't go very low because of his poor up B, unless he can afford to waste a fart on his recovery.

The other is that you sound like retreating aerials/pivot grabs/ are safe on whiff.
They're not, Falcon runs faster than Wario can drift and even if he doesn't have a guaranteed punition it's still a disadvantageous position for Wario.

My conclusion is that Wario has a better mobility, better damage output and kill power (lol waft) but Falcon has a better reach and a better close quarter game.
The advantage is Wario's, but not enough to warrant a +2.
 

TheReflexWonder

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One thing I disagree with is that without his bike Wario's recovery is ***, especially if he's not recovering from high and has to deal with reverse Uair and flub knee. Airdodge is so effective that it can be baited and Wario can't go very low because of his poor up B, unless he can afford to waste a fart on his recovery.

The other is that you sound like retreating aerials/pivot grabs/ are safe on whiff.
They're not, Falcon runs faster than Wario can drift and even if he doesn't have a guaranteed punition it's still a disadvantageous position for Wario.

My conclusion is that Wario has a better mobility, better damage output and kill power (lol waft) but Falcon has a better reach and a better close quarter game.
The advantage is Wario's, but not enough to warrant a +2.
(S)DI hits up and recover fairly high. With platforms (a thing that Wario usually wants in his matches), he's still quite well off in landing because of the disparity between normal fall and fastfall speed, as well as unpredictability in weaving (though Falcon is better-equipped to punish that than most). Taking an extra 10-12% here and there isn't so detrimental to Wario in the grand scheme of things, and the advantages it creates (by having a bike on the stage) are available in neutral position, unlike Falcon who gains his main advantage from it after getting through it and putting Wario off the stage, meaning that Wario benefits from it more often, and there's something to say for that, since Wario's advantages with it make it harder for Falcon to take advantage of it in the first place.

Unless you're hard reading them, they're pretty safe. Pivot grab is just stupid on most characters, period. N-Air outside of Falcon's range works fantastically, as the long-lasting hitbox can be moved left or right just outside of the opponent's range, making it difficult for the opponent to stick a hitbox in, with a sourspot N-Air hit usually putting Falcon in a position to be threatened by a tech-chase or just frame advantage. The flatten effect upon landing has a nice side-effect of avoiding grabs. Falcon's large initial dash also limits his options (though most of his good ones are pretty much unaffected by it).

That said, you've still made good and valid points. I'm willing to budge and put it as a ("strong") +1.
 

TheReflexWonder

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One thing I disagree with is that without his bike Wario's recovery is ***, especially if he's not recovering from high and has to deal with reverse Uair and flub knee. Airdodge is so effective that it can be baited and Wario can't go very low because of his poor up B, unless he can afford to waste a fart on his recovery.

The other is that you sound like retreating aerials/pivot grabs/ are safe on whiff.
They're not, Falcon runs faster than Wario can drift and even if he doesn't have a guaranteed punition it's still a disadvantageous position for Wario.

My conclusion is that Wario has a better mobility, better damage output and kill power (lol waft) but Falcon has a better reach and a better close quarter game.
The advantage is Wario's, but not enough to warrant a +2.
(S)DI hits up and recover fairly high. With platforms (a thing that Wario usually wants in his matches), he's still quite well off in landing because of the disparity between normal fall and fastfall speed, as well as unpredictability in weaving (though Falcon is better-equipped to punish that than most). Taking an extra 10-12% here and there isn't so detrimental to Wario in the grand scheme of things, and the advantages it creates (by having a bike on the stage) are available in neutral position, unlike Falcon who gains his main advantage from it after getting through it and putting Wario off the stage, meaning that Wario benefits from it more often, and there's something to say for that, since Wario's advantages with it make it harder for Falcon to take advantage of it in the first place.

Unless you're hard reading them, they're pretty safe. Pivot grab is just stupid on most characters, period. N-Air outside of Falcon's range works fantastically, as the long-lasting hitbox can be moved left or right just outside of the opponent's range, making it difficult for the opponent to stick a hitbox in, with a sourspot N-Air hit usually putting Falcon in a position to be threatened by a tech-chase or just frame advantage. The flatten effect upon landing has a nice side-effect of avoiding grabs. Falcon's large initial dash also limits his options (though most of his good ones are pretty much unaffected by it). Also, remember than Wolf does quite well against us, but that the chaingrab single-handedly changes the matchup number strongly against him.

That said, you've still made good points. I'm willing to budge and put it as a ("strong") +1.
 

TheReflexWonder

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The numbers just don't translate over very well. If I had to give a ratio based on my number placement, I'd say it's somewhere around 60-40, I suppose.

Of course, some people's idea of 55-45, 60-40, etc., and the like are different than others'. I think of somewhere around 65-35 to 70-30 as +3, which is why it's difficult to just say numbers like that. I find it much more intuitive to "feel out" the numbers, with +1 being a slight advantage, +2 being a moderate advantage, +3 being a severe advantage, and +4 being "this has already been decided if both players have any idea what they're doing." A "strong" +1 means it's not quite a moderate advantage (though that in itself is subjective, too, I guess), but it's pretty close. I think of it in terms of how difficult you'd find the matchup to be.
 

Biz_R_0

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I prefer the 50:50 format because it allows for a more presice measurement and there's no +1.5.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I still don't think that kind of ratio is easy to implement. As far as I know, those ratios originally existed when people did matchup charts by putting two excellent players in a ten-game set and counting how many times each player won/lost. When I look at 6-4 in that sense, that certainly sounds rather even to me. It's also harder to do for Smash because Smash has to take the stages into consideration.

Because we don't ever do concept matches like that (though it would be cool to set up at something at major tournaments), I think defining matchups in the 0 to +/-4 range with a .5 addition (mostly for individual, specific ideas about a matchup) would be best, since there aren't enough categories to argue a great deal between, and the categories are clearly defined. I don't feel that the 10-point system is defined clearly enough to feel very comfortable using it between groups of people.
 

lordhelmet

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+1 Wario

Done.

Haven't played a Wario since Blue Rogue last year tho.

Threat of chaingrab + Falcon has to approach = Wario wins the matchup. If it weren't for those two things, it would be even or Falcon's favor.
 

RvlvRBobcat

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Falcon has better consistancy with grab options even though wario can grab (0-70) and falcon can grab to footstool, hobble on ground, grab to knee (0-60) and he can then grab release to knee kill.

Wario has better versatility in recovery options and his manueverability in his horizontal momentum that rivals jigglypuff can help him weave in and out of falcon's range while staying safe.

Wario has overall control of the stage game over falcon, and most of the time falcon is forced to play defensive until situation provides he move in. Falcon is harder to play defensive with and wario has a better developed metagame than falcon, so it is unclear if falcon can come back from being pressured hard, yet.

Wario +1 in matchup, definately
 

teluoborg

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(S)DI hits up and recover fairly high. With platforms (a thing that Wario usually wants in his matches), he's still quite well off in landing because of the disparity between normal fall and fastfall speed, as well as unpredictability in weaving (though Falcon is better-equipped to punish that than most). Taking an extra 10-12% here and there isn't so detrimental to Wario in the grand scheme of things, and the advantages it creates (by having a bike on the stage) are available in neutral position, unlike Falcon who gains his main advantage from it after getting through it and putting Wario off the stage, meaning that Wario benefits from it more often, and there's something to say for that, since Wario's advantages with it make it harder for Falcon to take advantage of it in the first place.

Unless you're hard reading them, they're pretty safe. Pivot grab is just stupid on most characters, period. N-Air outside of Falcon's range works fantastically, as the long-lasting hitbox can be moved left or right just outside of the opponent's range, making it difficult for the opponent to stick a hitbox in, with a sourspot N-Air hit usually putting Falcon in a position to be threatened by a tech-chase or just frame advantage. The flatten effect upon landing has a nice side-effect of avoiding grabs. Falcon's large initial dash also limits his options (though most of his good ones are pretty much unaffected by it). Also, remember than Wolf does quite well against us, but that the chaingrab single-handedly changes the matchup number strongly against him.

That said, you've still made good points. I'm willing to budge and put it as a ("strong") +1.
Agreed on everything, except that you maybe underestimate the horizontal trajectory of backwards Uair and flub knee. But as you say Wario should (like everyone else) be recovering from high up because that's where you get sent when you DI effectively.

And I agree that the CG is probably what weights the most in the matchup (with the overpower of waft), not because Wario would have trouble racking damage otherwise (he doesn't) but because that damage is guaranteed and if landed early can get you an advantage that you will keep for a long time by exploiting the gayness of the matchup.
Correct me if I'm wrong tho, but one thing that differs from Wolf is that Falcon's reward for a soft read in close quarter is big enough to create a risk for Wario.
All in all neither of the characters should be grabbing the other very often.


Also .5s are the bane of matchup discussions, because they add more conflicts than precisions.
 

xzx

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xzx: +1
Flame Hyenard: +1
Biz_R_0: +1
TheReflexWonder: +1
teluoborg: +1
Lord Chair: +1
LOE1: +1
Labernash: +1
Iota: +2
lordhelmet: +1
RvlvRBobcat: +1

Okay, nice! Let's move on to Jigglypuff: Both characters have crap ranges (Wario has generally more bigger hitboxes than Jigglypuff and I think that Wario's range is a little better than Jigglypuff's) so trades will happen. Wario's endurance compared to how weak Jigglypuff is (and how hard Jigglypuff has to land a (fresh) kill move) is what makes this MU horrible for Jigglypuff. It's not as bad as, say, DeeKay (because DeeKay has range and raw kill power), but it is still a bad MU for Jigglypuff (like, 90-95% of the MUs in Brawl are bad MUs for Jigglypuff. I still don't know why people don't think Jigglypuff is the worst character in Brawl, because she is. Oops, anyway, this is not open for discussion (not in this thread anyway)). Wario's wafts, f-smashes and up-airs are too freaking good against Jigglypuff. We can juggle her easily with up-air, but Jigglypuff shouldn't be air dodging recklessly. She should dair when needed (like Peach) and exploit the fact that she is a little faster than Wario in the air (although the accelerations differs). The damage output is easily in Wario's favour. Bite beat most things Jigglypuff has (most notable Roll-out) and is annoying for Jigglypuff to deal with at times. (But she can still punish it since she has many jumps and good air mobility. Can she punish it with Rest while Wario's mouth is open?)

Jigglypuff's greatest tools in this MU is that she has pound that beats more things we could imagine, good air mobility, 5 mid-air jumps, and a somewhat decent gimp game (getting gimped by Jigglypuff as Wario may happen, but that should not be happening very often). Jigglypuff doesn't have much else sadly (thank goodness she has fair and bair though). Poor balloon.

To sum it up, Jigglypuff and Wario both have approximately equal range and air mobility. Wario's weight combined with Jigglypuff's poor ability to KO is what makes this MU hard for Jigglypuff. Still, Wario is a character Jigglypuff "wants to battle", since there are maaaany more MUs that are worse for Jigglypuff than the Wario MU (especially disjointed range characters and strong characters). All in all, it's not as bad as -3 for Jigglypuff and it's not as "good" as -1 for Jigglypuff, so -2 for Jigglypuff is a correct ratio. +2 for Wario. Fun fact: Jigglypuff's f-smash is stronger than Wario's f-smash (by 3%) when counting both base knockback and knockback scaling.

xzx: +2
 
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