Wario's Match-Ups!

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,023
Location
Sweden
#1
Hi!

I think it is time for us Wario mains to discuss the Match-Ups again. Since many of us think that Wario's MUs are kinda outdated, we will now discuss them and have new, fresh MUs! The metagame changes, and so do the MUs!

Rules:

- Post your very own Match-Up Chart (like this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=299158)!

- Avoid using ratios like 65:35, 45/55 etc. Use rather +1, +2, -3 etc...

- Respect each others Match-Up Charts and discuss nicely. We want to know how to work on every MU!

---------

Wario's Match-Ups according to SmashWiki (Brawl Back Room): http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wario_(SSBB)) (Scroll down to see Wario's current MUs!)

---------

My (xzx's) Match-Up Chart:

:wario:
-2: :metaknight: :dedede: :marth:
-1: :peach: :snake: :falco: :popo: :olimar: :gw:
0: :diddy: :ike: :sheik: :yoshi2: :pikachu2: :zerosuitsamus: :luigi2: :lucario: :toonlink: :rob: :fox: :kirby2:
+1: :mario2: :falcon: :pit: :ness2: :lucas: :sonic:
+2: :dk2: :pt: :samus2: :zelda: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff: :wolf: :bowser2: :link2:

---------

Now I want you to do a Match-Up Chart. After everyone have done a MU-chart, I will summarize all Match-Up Charts into one single one. This summarizon will "decide" Wario's "true" Match-Ups! Does it sound like a good idea? I'm sorry that I, an EU, has to do it! =P You maybe want an american to hold in this "project" or something... Anyway, I think this is a very good idea!

---------

Wario Boards MU-chart:

:wario:
-2: :metaknight: :marth: :dedede:
-1: :popo:
0: :snake: :olimar: :falco: :pikachu2: :gw: :fox: :peach: :kirby2: :sheik: :yoshi2:
+1: :diddy: :zerosuitsamus: :lucario: :toonlink: :pit: :rob: :sonic: :ike: :ness2: :luigi2: :lucas: :mario2: :falcon:
+2: :wolf: :dk2: :pt: :samus2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :zelda: :ganondorf:
+3: :bowser2:

Meta Knight
Diddy Kong
Snake
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Falco
Marth
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
King Dedede
Toon Link
Wolf
 

Iota

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
1,298
Location
Henrico, Virginia
3DS FC
2852-7054-7732
#2
I think it'd be better just to discuss the MUs individually again but I guess I'll humor this idea since I'd like to see what this would result in.
:wario:
-4 :warioc:
-2 :metaknight: :marth:
-1 :peach: :dedede: :olimar:* :popo:*
0 :popo:* :olimar:* :falco: :gw: :zerosuitsamus: :yoshi2: :wario:
1 :diddy: :pikachu2: :lucario: :ike: :toonlink: :luigi2: :kirby2: :rob: :fox: :pit: :sonic:
2 :mario2: :falcon: :wolf: :pt: :dk2: :link2: :ness2: :lucas: :samus2: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff:
3 :bowser2: :zelda:

Asterisks mean that I'm unsure about the MU. I still stand by my thoughts that D3 isn't MK/Marth terrible for us. Also Wario Land Wario is broken. Ban him.
:warioc:

0 :troll:
3 :metaknight:
4 :marth: :peach: :dedede: :popo: :olimar: :falco: :gw: :ike: :yoshi2: :wario:
:diddy: :pikachu2: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :toonlink: :luigi2: :kirby2: :rob: :fox: :pit: :sonic:
:mario2: :falcon: :wolf: :pt: :dk2: :link2: :ness2: :lucas: :samus2: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff: :bowser2: :zelda: :wario:
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,023
Location
Sweden
#3
Yeah, we will discuss the individually after everyone have posted their MU-chart!

And umm, where is Sheik? Also, you have 2 MU-charts, I guess the one below is just for trolling?

Also, just because Wario has (example) -2 against both MK and DDD doens't make them both equally bad for Wario. Have that in mind! =P
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
GRimer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
NNID
TheReflexWonder
#6
Eh, it's becoming a standard in the community. In the end, it's personal preference, as you'll get adequate information either way, even if +/-4 is less specific.
 

Waymas

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
464
Location
Mexico
#7
aight heres my personal matchup list


-2 :metaknight:

-1 :peach: :marth:

Stage Dependant :dedede:

0 :olimar: :popo: :falco: :pikachu2: :lucario: :ike: :diddy: :wario: :zerosuitsamus: :snake:

1 :toonlink: :gw: :luigi2: :fox: :sheilda: :mario2: :kirby2: :pit: :rob: :falcon: :samus2: :ness2: :lucas: :sonic:

2 :wolf: :dk2: :link2: :ganondorf: :pt: :bowser2: :jigglypuff:

I suggest we start with metaknight or King dedede
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,023
Location
Sweden
#9
I'd appreciate if every Wario main did this.

@Buff: I think it is easier if we start Tier wise (from MK to Ganondorf).

@Pwneroni: Try to qoute for example Buff. You do those head like that! =)
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
#10
WOW so simple! Haha k here goes xD

-1: :marth: :falco:

0: :metaknight: :dedede: :popo: :pikachu: :peach: :rob:

+1: :snake: :zerosuitsamus: :dk: :lucario: :diddy: :kirby:

Through exploration of bike, tires and other awesome things, I have determined that a few of Wario's bad matchups can be played a bit more effectively. Tires RULE! Wario's item game is gooooood :)
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
#13
I've played a few smart guys, really gotta say that utilizing the bike and tires opens up new doors. You have to be careful not to get gimped, but having increased range, traps and combo potential really make a difference. MK can use tires very well himself, but if you're smart you can use them to gain an advantage gainst many characters.

MK, D3, Lucario and DK are matchups where using the bike and tires can strengthen the matchup. Marth and Falco can really minimize the tire's effectiveness via sword and reflector.
 

Iota

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
1,298
Location
Henrico, Virginia
3DS FC
2852-7054-7732
#15
I've played a few smart guys, really gotta say that utilizing the bike and tires opens up new doors. You have to be careful not to get gimped, but having increased range, traps and combo potential really make a difference. MK can use tires very well himself, but if you're smart you can use them to gain an advantage gainst many characters.

MK, D3, Lucario and DK are matchups where using the bike and tires can strengthen the matchup. Marth and Falco can really minimize the tire's effectiveness via sword and reflector.
That doesn't mean Falco still isn't an even MU it just means we don't use tires. After all we have that amazing d-throw CG on him which is basically a guaranteed stock after it.
D3 I do agree tires make a HUGE difference in the MU by giving us an easier time landing stuff imo it's still -1 for us though due to his plethora of advantageous stages.
MK is one of the chars tires are only good if we're in a position to rush him down otherwise tires screw us over by limiting our defensive options due to our horrible toss frames but I do agree it gives us some really sick offensive options even with all this taken into consideration the MU still isn't even because his rushdown options make break biking risky+all his other gay stuff vs us. :/
 

Waymas

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
464
Location
Mexico
#16
i disagree with you Iota on the ddd matchup its pretty much stage dependant wario can pretty much outcamp ddd with no problems and pretty much every single hit you get on d3 you will have another easy followup , remember hes big is really easy to hit , it might be a bit hard to approach but you have tires a really good fair that is faster than his bair. And also you can **** the hell out of him when hes out of the stage!
 

femmetriforce

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Messages
178
Location
Barranquilla-Atlantico-Colombia
#17
EPIC: :wario:

-2: :dedede:
-1: :peach: :metaknight: :marth:
0: :snake: :popo: :olimar: :gw: :luigi2: :fox: :yoshi2: :falco:
+1: :diddy: :mario2: :sonic: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :lucas: :rob: :ike: :zelda: :sheik: :sheilda: :pikachu2: :kirby2: :falcon: :toonlink: :samus2: :pit:
+2: :bowser2: :dk2: :wolf: :pt: :link2: :ganondorf:

Basically Dedede, because of that sh*t of CG + Release, is pretty hard, also because of all anti-aerial Dedede has.

Marth is pretty viable, because its last grab is the one that is lethal. Metaknight is hard, but pretty winnable with some stuff like fsmash, fart and clap; same as peach.
 

Iota

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
1,298
Location
Henrico, Virginia
3DS FC
2852-7054-7732
#18
i disagree with you Iota on the ddd matchup its pretty much stage dependant wario can pretty much outcamp ddd with no problems and pretty much every single hit you get on d3 you will have another easy followup , remember hes big is really easy to hit , it might be a bit hard to approach but you have tires a really good fair that is faster than his bair. And also you can **** the hell out of him when hes out of the stage!
It is stage dependent but he has more stages that are advantageous for him than we have vs him. We can only outcamp D3 easily if we have the lead which is harder to keep then you might think unless It's on a stage like PS1, Delfino, Brinstar, etc. where camping is a lot easier due to the arrangement of the stage. If we do get grabbed or baired it's almost always a guaranteed lead gain/tie for him unless we have a 40-50% lead (which will never happen unless we're simply outplaying him). We only get follow ups at low percent and they'll only get us about 30-40%. Our fair may have faster start up but only by a little and it has more ending lag, less priority, and less range. Tires are tricky to get out if the D3 is smart enough to get close to you while you're getting the bike out making it pretty much impossible for us to break the bike until he's actually offstage/in the air (and by then we should be doing other things then breaking the bike). Approaching a smart D3 who knows how to wall Wario is VERY hard due to his massive grab range, bair, and u-tilt. We really do need a read, for him to approach, or for him to make a mistake overall to get inside we do make massive damage when we do get in but he makes just as much damage if not more when he gets in. This match up is stage dependent but overall the outcome is based on who establishes the lead first. D3 has the edge at top level play though because he has safer options with establishing the lead imo.
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
#19
:dedede:

Bike and tires completely change the matchup against :dedede:. Avoiding getting grabbed is waaaay easier with the increased range and pressure we gain from projectiles, so his chaingrab to grab release is mitigated to a degree.

Final Destination is no longer a bad stage against :dedede:, because it is one of the best tire stages in the game. You have tons of room to camp, and now instead of merely air camping you can work on getting tires out. If D3 pressures us when the bike is out, we can safely space aerials to break the bike, possibly creating space and throwing the bike for a wall projectile.

The bike also is a great threat to :dedede:'s recovery. Not only can you Dthrow it off the edge to make recovering low dangerous, you can also Uthrow it to punish his UpB and possibly score some more serious damage/kills.

Having a tire in your hand also nets increased punishing out of shield. Wario's Dthrow glidetoss -> Fsmash is a ~32% killing combo at any percent and can punish MK's Dsmash as well as Snake's Ftilt against our shield. Tires ****!
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,023
Location
Sweden
#20
Tires are Wario's future metagame I think. Just as Diddy Kong's bananas were a long time ago, but in a different manor.
 

Jebu-95

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
338
Location
Finland
#21
Tires are Wario's future metagame I think. Just as Diddy Kong's bananas were a long time ago, but in a different manor.
Unlike Diddys bananas, Wario can't just pull out tires whenever he likes. Taking out the bike, breaking it and controlling the tires requires an amount of time that can only be achieved if the opponent is star KO'd, is recovering from far or something like PT switching/shieldbreak. Sure you can advance the tire metagame and learn to use them wisely, but they won't ever be a significant part of his game enough to be called "Wario future metagame".

Sometimes I think that people overestimate Warios tire game a bit. I know that you can do awesome mixups/combos/followups and I've done 0-death combos with them a couple of times myself. But to me they seem really gimmicky. Sometimes Marth just boldly "kills" both of the tires with Nair or they pick them up and I end up killing the tires with fair or something. You can be good with them but it's kinda inconsistent.
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
#23
Jebu you should watch some of my matches. You can quite easily get your bike out and break them for tires, if you are careful and smart. It is risky, but if you do it right then you can minimize the risk and gain quite a benefit. Yes tires disappear when they touch a hitbox or shield, those are constraints that must be accounted and factored into the game.

The good thing about tires is that they BOUNCE :) in that regard they gain a bit of ground on bananas, since it may take longer to get the tire out but it may in fact last longer in battle if used right.

The worst thing about Wario is his range, right? Tires greatly increase range, which helps a ton in many matchups. It also gives him increased punishes out of shield, which helps against MK and Snake. Helps with safe approaches, shield pressure and traps, helping our matchup against D3.

Tires are not great against Marth and Falco, they can help a little but both those characters have very good anti-item characteristics. However still room to explore! Honestly IMO tires are a very deep resource just waiting to be explored. The surface has been scratched, but there is much more to find! :)
 

Lord Chair

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
3,229
Location
Cheeseland, Europe
#24
The investment you have to put into getting out your tires against DDD is huge. You talk of safe approaches with tires when there are none.

Tires have more range than Wario's conventional moveset but that plus is gravely overshadowed by the fact that they greatly diminish his burst range and general speed. There is not much more depth to tires than what has been explored thus far.

You have been talking about unexplored options with tires and how they can potentially change MUs for what feels like a year but that progress hasn't been made. Not by you, not by anyone. Tires will always remain a big investment in unreliable and very much counterable options, regardless of how you look at it. Your optimism is fine but it doesn't get you much further, facing reality does.

Your matches are honestly whatever. I do not mean to be rude but I have yet to see you against a player who has proven himself worth his salt.
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
#25
But dude progress HAS been made! I've been hard at work for this past year (had a break from smash for a few months)! Burst range = Dthrow glidetoss, usable out of shield. His speed is the same, and you can have multiple hitboxes present on the field at one time! How is that not revolutionary? Wario's item game is great paired with his high air speed and Nair.

Safe approaches exist with tires, my friend. If a tire is bouncing behind your opponent, you can approach with Nair, Fair or Uair. Assuming you are spacing properly, they will either have to shield or get hit. If they are hit, you can immediately Nair to hit them again and pick up the tire simultaneously. Shall they choose to shield, they will be pushed into the bouncing tire. That tire hitting their shield will give you enough time to get out of there with a Nair or dodge away.

Is that a safe approach? If there is a flaw, I always gladly accept constructive criticism. I have not collaborated much with other Wario players on my findings, except for what is in the Bike and Tire section of the AT thread.

Oh and I almost forgot about Dthrow glidetoss oos punishing Snake's Ftilt and MK's Dsmash. Am I mistaken? I have not conducted frame tests to conclude if it is inescapable or not. I have, however, done it successfully multiple times. Probably gonna go with my guy feeling on this one: It rapes.

Nerd was ranked 3rd in WA at the time of this match, you can see how the tires effects are diminished against a skilled opponent. Since then a lot of improvement has been made to the tire game, which you can note in LF's against Eggz and t1mmy @ Best Bout 9. They are my good friends as well as smash veterans since the early melee days.
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,023
Location
Sweden
#26
@Jebu: No, Wario can pull out tires whenever he wants, but he must be careful and smart to do so. When there is room to pull out the bike, I always do that. Heck, against MK, DDD and grab-releasers tires are really good, and it is worth combining tires with Wario overall. I have been saved a lot of times thanks to the tires interupting grabs, tornadoes and other things. And nope, I'm not saying that Wario's future game is entirely in the hands of the tires, but the bike and the tires give Wario a whole handful of options and is really helpful in all kinds of MUs (maybe not against Falco or Marth, but against almost evryone else).

So, in the end, Wario's tires and bike really are a great help for Wario. They are too good!
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
GRimer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
NNID
TheReflexWonder
#27
I am somewhere between these "tires aren't that great" and "tires are SO great" mentalities.

As far as I can tell, tires almost always benefit Wario's list of options at any given moment. The only ground option that Wario regrets exchanging a tire throw for is his grab, which is definitely unfortunate, but, it isn't as bad as it could be, since we still have Bite to work with if we want to bypass shields. As far as air approaches go, unless I'm missing something, we should be able to Z-Drop -> aerial, like Peach or Toon Link, whenever we want to use an aerial without losing the tire.

As a result, it greatly increases our general range on the ground (the opponent can't run -> shield forever, and that's why people get caught by it when trying to approach), doesn't really interfere with our aerial game (as long as we're experienced enough to consistently keep the tire whenever we want to use an aerial), and allows for punishes and potential frame traps that are not possible without a tire. There is something to be said for being able to Z-Drop a tire when recovering high; that's why Toon Link is almost untouchable in that position. While tires are incredibly easy to lose this way, bouncing a tire can make certain defensive options rather unsafe for the opponent. It beats spotdodges when you pressure, say, a Falco. Keeping it well behind you makes rolling behind you hurt (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot).

The real issue here is giving up stage control and recovery options every time you want to do this, and even then, you're creating unnecessary pressure for yourself by having to break the bike to get those things back AND to get the tires in the first place. While it's not so bad against characters that can't adequately control a bike's worth of space against Wario, others can be a lot more difficult in that.

One thing I think would be pretty useful to explore is how the hitlag of opponents' moves on the bike affect the frame data. For example, if Marth does a F-Air and it hits our shield, then it hits our bike, how much does that aid our ability to punish or pressure? Different moves have different amounts of hitlag; it would help us to deal with the trouble of breaking the bike safely, as well as being generally useful when we happen to have the bike on the stage.
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
#28
Well spoken good sir! I agree with much of what you say, the riskiest part being the actual procuring of the tires. My next goal should be to find out the safest ways to break the bike. Ways with little lag, and importantly we must chart where the tires fly when a move is used to KO the bike. That's very important stuff, because you may take some damage breaking the bike and you need to make the tire count. Then the tires fly off the stage :( lol
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,023
Location
Sweden
#29
I just wanted to add that I didn't meant that the tires is Wario's future metagame in a way that the only thing Wario does is to collect tires. But I would definetily see that in the future, tires combining with other things.

@Pwneroni: When I have the chance, I always pull out my bike and start up-tilting it. The bike has exactly 26% of HP, which means that 3 up-tilts will destroy it. The tires will mostly come upwards (when up-tilted), so they are easy to catch (both). But otherwise, I think that tires will pop out randomly in any direction when the bike is destroyed. (Cannot someone test this? =P) And if you don't have time to destroy the bike, use it instead and let it break itself. I always catch a tire the moment the bike is destroyed.
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
#30
Really great stuff xzx! I figured the bike had around 30 health, but I never knew exactly how much! Pretty sure the tire trajectories are determined by which move you destroy the bike with, some send the tires flying away while others deposit them very close. I think the drill hits of Dair, not the last hit, may put the tires nicely next to us. Could it be possible instead of using 3 Utilts to go Utilt -> Utilt -> Nair2 -> Dair Drill? Maybe more Nair2's will be needed, my friend has the wii though so I won't be able to find out for a few days.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
1,579
Location
Utica, NY
NNID
PieDisliker
#33
-2: :metaknight: :dedede:
-1: :peach: :falco: :marth:
0: :snake: :diddy: :zerosuitsamus: :yoshi2: :warioc: :lucario: :luigi2:
+1: :gw: :olimar: :popo: :pikachu2: :toonlink: :kirby2: :rob: :fox: :falcon: :pit: :sheik: :pt: :ike:
+2: :wolf: :dk2: :link2: :ness2: :lucas: :samus2: :sonic: :zelda: :mario2: :bowser2:
+3: :jigglypuff: :ganondorf:

And I feel that we need to time out Dedede in order to win. I don't remember the last time I won against a Dedede without him sd'ing or timing him out except for friendlies. I don't fight D3 that often, though.
 

Xatic

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
1,307
Location
Bay City, Michigan / Rochester, NY
#34
This is just my personal opinion on Wario's MUs that I will open to you guys for discussion. Some of them may be wrong or you may not agree with them but I might as well throw my opinion in there as well :denzel:


-2: :metaknight: :dedede:
-1: :peach: :marth:
0: :snake: :diddy: :zerosuitsamus: :lucario: :luigi2: :falco: :olimar: :popo:
+1: :gw: :pikachu2: :toonlink: :kirby2: :rob: :fox: :falcon: :pit: :sheik: :pt: :ike: :yoshi2:
+2: :wolf: :dk2: :link2: :ness2: :lucas: :samus2: :sonic: :zelda: :mario2: :bowser2:
+3: :jigglypuff: :ganondorf:


Match-Ups that I feel should be discussed on my list
:sheik:
I feel like this MU could be even, though I put it at +1. I have played Tutu a bunch in tourney and I feel like sheik has a lot of tools to stop us and build up damage very quickly. Tutu always ends up getting a grab release to ftilt and keeps the ftilt going until about ~50% (I may be DIing this incorrectly I'm not sure). And I feel that her aerials outrange a lot of ours (bair and nair are kind of annoying to get around imo.

:dedede:
Timing the DDD out is the only logical way I see to win this MU vs. a DDD that knows what they are doing. I personally go :falcon: vs. most D3 players just because Falcon doesnt get grab released into free usmashes and such. I am a very impatient player so even if I play this MU correctly for the first half of the match, I end up losing patience and getting grabbed anyways. If Brinstar/RC is legal I will normally CP there since it is easier to be aggressive without because punished so hard.

:marth:
This MU is weird for me. Some Marths I do well against and others I don't. If the marth allows me to get close to him this MU is pretty easy imo. However, I feel like fair keeps us away and cuts down a bunch of our approaching options.

:olimar:
This is another MU that I feel is dependant on the player I'm playing against. I feel like Wario has to come in at a 45 degree angle to approach Olimar at all. We win a lot of clashes because of the pikmin but getting inside is extremely difficult for me. However once you get inside on Olimar and start comboing with dairs and nairs I feel we can do well. He kills us very early imo. I normally don't die before ~170%ish or so. But in this MU I normally die at around 100-120%




Don't take this post as me saying that these are definite match-ups. By no means do I think that I am a good or well known Wario player. This is just simply my opinion and I want it to be discussed in a very logical manner. Feel free to discuss my other choices for this as well but the 4 I pointed out I feel like are the most important ones to discuss.
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,023
Location
Sweden
#35
I suggest that we will start by discussing MK! After about one week I will summirize all your personal MU and add it to one, and then we will continue with Snake etc. So, START DISCUSSING!
 

Lord Chair

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
3,229
Location
Cheeseland, Europe
#40
It's not an escape in the sense you would assume it to be.

After a couple of ftilts for some reason it's possible to make the Bike appear, you'll still get hit by the next ftilt but Sheik won't be able to do another one because the ftilt command would cause her to pick up the Bike.

Has something to do with the Bike appearing on frame 1, exactly mechanics probably don't make sense because you'd say that Sheik's ftilts work with true frame advantage... oh well.
 
Top Bottom