Wario's Match-Ups!

[DLA]

DLA is lying I timed him out with Wolf and he SD with 1 min left

I timed him out with Wolf and he SD with 1 min left

1 min left

 

[xzx]

xzx: +2
Rizen: +2
G~P: +2
Gheb_01: +3
Lord Chair: +3
Labernash: +2
LOE1: +2
Croi: +2
DLA: +2
Buff: +2

@Labernash: Thanks for the props, that is appreciated a lot!

@Reflex: Please after the Ganondorf discussion ends, >DO NOT< close this thread. I have some things I wanna do after this. Thanks.

@The thing about Wolf "timing out" Ganz: Wolf and Wario both have an equal aerial speed. Yeah, Wario has better acceleration in the air than Wolf, but Wolf at least has bair and his blaster. I'm not saying that Wario can't time out Ganondorf, but for me it feels like Wolf is a lil' better at timing out Ganondorf. =P

All right, I will let the discussion flow for a short period of time before it will end. (Yes I know that +2 is in majority.)

 

[xzx]

(Sorry for the double post!) Okay, now we have discussed every character in Brawl, and from now on we are finished with Wario's MUs! I'm proud of you all! This is the complete set of Wario's MUs, according to the discussions:

Wario Boards MU-chart:


-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

(Bah, the new looks on the forums is kinda confusing and for some reason won't show the pictures of the characters, please deal with it.) What I wanted to do now is to rediscuss Toon Link.

LOE1: +1
DMG: 0
archer.: +1
BPx: 0
Croi: 0
ShadowAzure: +1
SuperShyGuy: +1
Tesh: +1
xzx: 0
PMC66: +1
Iota: +1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Dynomite: +1

Many of the Warios said the MU was even, while all the Toon Links said the MU was +1 in Wario's favour. I feel that only we Warios should leave a ratio in this "rediscussion", because I felt Toon Link was a little "unclear". If you guys feel that we should rediscuss some other MUs then feel free to do it (but only if many of you want to do it). If you however don't seem a point in doing a "rediscussion" about the Toon Link MU, then we are 100% clear with this thread (unless we discuss the Wario MU just for fun! =P). (In case of the reason you want to rediscuss Toon Link, I'll make the first ratio/vote

xzx: 0

 

[Lord Chair]

+1

Not really up for an elaborate explanation. MU is really difficult to explain.

 

[sGale]

Not really MU discussion, but is the MU Panel gonna aim for these numbers or their own opinions on the MUs?

 

[Lord Chair]

Own opinions because most opinions here are uninformed (read: crap). (Disclaimer: the other panel members would've put that in a more politically sound fashion).

 

[Iota]

I'm still adamant for +1 for TL. Will there be any other rediscussions xzx?

 

[LOE1]

still goin with a +1 for us. camp dat tl *****

also, i'd like to rediscuss peach a little cause i strongly believe its a -1 and not even. i dunno if im the only one who thinks this, but yeaa.

 

[xzx]

Okay, then we don't have to change the TL MU to 0. +1 it still is then.

@Iota: Yes, I feel that we need to "discuss" G&W too, since more and more Warios think this MU is -1 to Wario. I also feel that Peach need to be "rediscussed". But I dunno, it doesn't seem that this thread is active some more.

Oh, and please help me with the character pics/icons, since not every one of them has a character pic/icon on them.

If not many Warios want to "rediscuss" those MUs then this thread has finished its purpose.

Btw, Lord Chair, care to make an update about how far you have progressed in the Brawl Backroom MU discussions?

 

[Lord Chair]

Not too far. We were late on listing our suggested changes so we missed out on the first phase of the matchup discussions. There's quite a bit of stuff to work through though, the project is running slow due to Apex and Xenforo stuff.

 

[Excellence]

So how exactly is this match-up supposed to be played?

 

[Iota]

Can you be more specific with your question?

It'd prob be a good idea to look through the thread for the MU you're looking for.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh, the seep emoticon is back

 

[Iota]

My lovely sheep has been back since near the beginning.

 

[xzx]

Can someone do the post counts on the other characters? Please that would be very appreciated!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can't do it? It's not hard, especially now with the new system.

There's a post number at the bottom-right of each post. Instead of just singling out that one post, the link it gives you loads a page of posts and auto-scrolls to the one you selected.

 

[xzx]

Oh, is it really that simple? I must try it:

Reflex's Post

EDIT: After a few tries I finally did it!! The big ass pain now comes into searching every MU's postcount, but leave it to me! I will fix it within one week, I hope...

 

[Mr. Fox]

I personally think Snake should be -1 matchup because it's hard for Wario to tech out of his Down throw tech chases. Idk, maybe I just don't know the matchup well enough.

 

[PKBeam]

lol snake.
you guys are lucky you're good at not getting grabbed.

 

[xzx]

^Wario isn't immune to grabs. Also, Snake's grab range is so ridiculous (combine that with Wario's poor range). That's why approaching Snake is so silly-nilly - it's a really tedious Matchup.
I honestly don't know why most Wario's think it is even... Personally I believe it is in Snake's favour.

 

[PKBeam]

^Wario isn't immune to grabs. Also, Snake's grab range is so ridiculous (combine that with Wario's poor range). That's why approaching Snake is so silly-nilly - it's a really tedious Matchup.
I honestly don't know why most Wario's think it is even... Personally I believe it is in Snake's favour.

Even? well when you get Uaired from GR I hardly think it'd be even. At least you're not light tho.

 

[Lord Chair]

It's even because you have a lot of room for conditioning and you can definitely get in. You can force him to make decisions and, especially at higher percentages, getting in a hit means he'll be in a world of pain. Getting grabbed is not something that has to happen particularly often, only when you commit rather heavily or make some sort of error. Basing a MU ratio just on a grab release is quite... fatuous :/

 

[PKBeam]

Basing a MU ratio just on a grab release is quite... fatuous :/

we're supposed to be the Xperts on GR so why don't you leave the thinking to us and the Nesses.

 

[Mr. Fox]

It's not just that he has grab range/advantage, it's also that we have very low range so we can't approach very reliably without getting grabbed. And we can't camp because of his projectiles.

 

[Brittleorgans]

If you know one characters grab release you're an expert on all of them. Sounds legit.

 

[PKBeam]

well we suffer less from GR than you :].
can't you guys fart him out of his up-B SA?
also its worth repeating that if he up-Bs too close the the ledge, grab him (DON'T PUMMEL OR THROW), and if his legs are dangling in the air (which they should be), when he releases from the grab he'll have to C4 himself to get his up-B back. and you can do it again if he still hasn't learned his lesson.

i feel like we're +2 for you though.
and i thought most of you would have as -1.

 

[Lord Chair]

I'm not going to leave thinking to people who clearly don't think too well. Your theorycraft is appreciated, however.

 

[xzx]

What, I'm not basing the Snake Vs. Wario Matchup on the fact that Snake can grab release Wario. I'm still holding tight onto Snake having the favour (+1) for various reasons (that Snake can grab release Wario is just one reason among other reasons). The others are for example better damage racking capabilities, (disjointed) annoying range that really give Wario trouble, better killer and stage control. Of course Wario also has some advantages over Snake but I believe Snake's advantages overweight Warios advantages in this Matchup.

I don't really care if people think otherwise, but given the fact that there is a big Snake emo wave going on, people seem to make Snake look worse than what he actually is-- Not that this is related to the Matchup itself though.

 

[LOE1]

yeaa, I think the snake mu is even. the air is our biggest friend here. you approach in the air, you see him run back, he's trying to pivot grab, so weave back. if he doesn't run back, my favorite option is bite. I love bit in this mu because it almost always puts him in a bad position. I think you just have to take advantage when you have the momentum. do your best to read him when he's in the air falling from his up b. snake does hit hard, but you have the advantage of not getting hit often. when ur at high %, he'll normally be fishing for a grab or utilt, so capitalize on punishing that. and of course, wafting him early puts him at a pretty big disadvantage. it's very possible for wario to camp for a waft vs snake because wario can dodge grenades fairly easily, or pressure snake by pretending to go in. this is just how I go about it though

 

[xzx]

Approaching Snake (directly) in the air is very risky since he has tools for defending himself. His Up-tilt is just outright broken and blocks things like Fair and Nair. His Nair ****s on Wario's aerial approach since it's a long-lasting move that has multiple hits that are disjointed, and his pivot grab just laughs at Wario's attempts to approach him. I'm not saying Wario can't/shouldn't approach Snake through the air, but it's just skewed in Snake's advantage since he can do those things I mentioned above. Of course Wario has to approach smartly and unpredictably but Snake could also read that and play smartly and try to chase Wario away. He can also DACUS away in an attempt to escape if that is needed. By all this I am saying that Snake can control the space in front of him and somewhat above him, limiting Wario's approaching options. It's not without the risks that Wario approaches Snake...

While Bite has its own merits, I wouldn't suggest using it a lot against Snake. Why? Because Snake's many disjointed hitboxes can break through it (beat it). Not only that, but if there are any grenades laying around, Bite will always "prioritize" them before Snake (since Bite's hitbox (grabbox) is bigger for items than characters). However, Bite is a great tool against a recovering Snake if Wario gets the chance to bite his Cypher.

"...but you have the advantage of not getting hit often." I have to disagree with this. Yes, it may be so that Wario hits Snake more (poking), but since Snake can deal ridiculous amounts of damage, Snake's hits adds up over time (not to mention trading occurs more than one may think). So it doesn't really matter if Wario gets ten attacks that deal around 80% while Snake's attacks deal the same amount of damage, but with only, say, five hits. Snake hits harder than Wario (really, the grab release is just a great bonus) and controls the match better overall. Thank goodness for Wario's air speed and air game against him though. In the air Wario truly shines against Snake, but don't forget that Snake has good aerials to keep Wario at bay. If Wario thinks he can do what he wants against Snake in the air then he's wrong. Baiting his air dodges or punishing a failed aerial with Waft is what Wario's good at. Since Snake doesn't have that many air-to-ground options, Wario can punish hard (fueling this with tires/the bike (item)).

I am aware of Snake's merits in this Matchup and the same goes for Wario's merits. The same goes for their flaws. But I just believe that in the end, Snake takes the larger bite of the cake than what Wario does. I respect your opinions and ratios about this Matchup, but this is just my point of view on the Matchup.

 

[JabbatheHutt]

I find it amazing. 7 years, and Wario's amtch ups are still some of the best.

 

[xzx]

I find it amazing. 7 years, and Wario's amtch ups are still some of the best.

HAH!

No.