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Wario's Match-Ups!
- Thread starter xzx
- Start date
... All right, let's move on to none other than Ganondorf!
This MU is -1 for Wario if the Wario doesn't know the MU; +2 if both know the MU; +3 for Wario if Ganondorf doesn't know the MU. This MU is absolutely NOT NEAR even! This MU is +2 at worst for Wario, and I'm going to tell you why:
> Wario has a Chain grab on Ganondorf from 0% - 90%, with actual setups to grab Ganondorf (like bite).
> Wario's imba aerial mobility is what makes this MU so hard for Ganondorf (IMO). Wario can reset the situation, air camp all day (charging his waft) and time Ganondorf out. If Wario has the lead, this MU becomes an upphill... no, mountain climbing battle for Ganondorf. Ganondorf is so sluggish.
> Wario can gimp Ganondorf (and pressure him off stage) with a variety of tools, hence the tires and the bike (as a projectile).
> ... Bite...
... And what Ganondorf has:
> Ganondorf still has range to compete with Wario (most notable, his up-air, which is pretty fast) in close combats. Don't underestimate/overestimate Ganondorf's range/Wario's range respectively.
> Ganondorf can grab release Wario to an up angled f-smash, which does some serious 25% damage while KOing around 110%. He can also grab release us to dair off stage (if he manages to grab us near the ledge). Too bad his grab(range) sucks hard.
> Ganondorf has his trademark power, and can KO. However, his lack of KO setups makes it hard for him to land a kill move (outside of a grab release), and he is the character who gets punished the most by the stale moves system, sadly. Considering how fast Wario is, Ganondorf must either do a read, or grab Wario (but then some platforms can mess up with Ganondorf's grab release). Ganondorf has the power, but not the effectivness to land a kill move (again, outside of a grab release).
> Ganondorf is heavy, meaning that he survives most weaker/staled blows from Wario.
All in all, Wario's quickness combined with his punishing tools and camp game makes this MU a hard one for Ganondorf. Ganondorf can still make comebacks if he grabs Wario or does a nice read, but other than that, Ganondorf has to struggle against a Wario who knows how to, sorry for my choice of word, outgay him. However, Wario is still the character Ganondorf wants to face in the higher tiers, since every character in the higher tiers are much worse than Wario. So if we are optimistic here, Ganondorf should be happy to battle Wario in the higher tiers, since the other higher tiers are much worse for Ganondorf than what Wario is. Nonetheless, Wario is still a threat to Ganondorf, and if Wario has the lead, it's pretty much gg. Ganondorf can't approach and is very bad at approaching, so that's why Wario can exploit this by either timing him out, or just camp the heck out of him all day (while charging his waft). As said earlier, this MU becomes +2 at worst for Wario if both knows how to do in this MU. This MU is more like "+2,5", but yeah. This MU can be troublesome for Wario if he doesn't have knowledge about how to fight Ganondorf (trust me we all have been there, right?! =D), but that shouldn't be considered. But yeah, if both knows the MU, +2 sounds about right. (This isn't theorycrafting. I have battled a handful of good Ganondorfs, trust me, and I know what tools each character has against each other. Wario has the tools to make this MU hard for Ganondorf, but not the tools to shut him down (like MK, Falco and ICs has). On the other hand, Ganondorf has tools to make this MU not any worse than -2 for him.)
xzx: +2
Ganondorf becomes predictable after a while. (Poor Ganondorf! =()
This MU is -1 for Wario if the Wario doesn't know the MU; +2 if both know the MU; +3 for Wario if Ganondorf doesn't know the MU. This MU is absolutely NOT NEAR even! This MU is +2 at worst for Wario, and I'm going to tell you why:
> Wario has a Chain grab on Ganondorf from 0% - 90%, with actual setups to grab Ganondorf (like bite).
> Wario's imba aerial mobility is what makes this MU so hard for Ganondorf (IMO). Wario can reset the situation, air camp all day (charging his waft) and time Ganondorf out. If Wario has the lead, this MU becomes an upphill... no, mountain climbing battle for Ganondorf. Ganondorf is so sluggish.
> Wario can gimp Ganondorf (and pressure him off stage) with a variety of tools, hence the tires and the bike (as a projectile).
> ... Bite...
... And what Ganondorf has:
> Ganondorf still has range to compete with Wario (most notable, his up-air, which is pretty fast) in close combats. Don't underestimate/overestimate Ganondorf's range/Wario's range respectively.
> Ganondorf can grab release Wario to an up angled f-smash, which does some serious 25% damage while KOing around 110%. He can also grab release us to dair off stage (if he manages to grab us near the ledge). Too bad his grab(range) sucks hard.
> Ganondorf has his trademark power, and can KO. However, his lack of KO setups makes it hard for him to land a kill move (outside of a grab release), and he is the character who gets punished the most by the stale moves system, sadly. Considering how fast Wario is, Ganondorf must either do a read, or grab Wario (but then some platforms can mess up with Ganondorf's grab release). Ganondorf has the power, but not the effectivness to land a kill move (again, outside of a grab release).
> Ganondorf is heavy, meaning that he survives most weaker/staled blows from Wario.
All in all, Wario's quickness combined with his punishing tools and camp game makes this MU a hard one for Ganondorf. Ganondorf can still make comebacks if he grabs Wario or does a nice read, but other than that, Ganondorf has to struggle against a Wario who knows how to, sorry for my choice of word, outgay him. However, Wario is still the character Ganondorf wants to face in the higher tiers, since every character in the higher tiers are much worse than Wario. So if we are optimistic here, Ganondorf should be happy to battle Wario in the higher tiers, since the other higher tiers are much worse for Ganondorf than what Wario is. Nonetheless, Wario is still a threat to Ganondorf, and if Wario has the lead, it's pretty much gg. Ganondorf can't approach and is very bad at approaching, so that's why Wario can exploit this by either timing him out, or just camp the heck out of him all day (while charging his waft). As said earlier, this MU becomes +2 at worst for Wario if both knows how to do in this MU. This MU is more like "+2,5", but yeah. This MU can be troublesome for Wario if he doesn't have knowledge about how to fight Ganondorf (trust me we all have been there, right?! =D), but that shouldn't be considered. But yeah, if both knows the MU, +2 sounds about right. (This isn't theorycrafting. I have battled a handful of good Ganondorfs, trust me, and I know what tools each character has against each other. Wario has the tools to make this MU hard for Ganondorf, but not the tools to shut him down (like MK, Falco and ICs has). On the other hand, Ganondorf has tools to make this MU not any worse than -2 for him.)
xzx: +2
Ganondorf becomes predictable after a while. (Poor Ganondorf! =()
Rizen
Smash Legend
Ganon can grab>pummel>grab release>re-grab>(Repeat until KO %s)>up angled Fsmash unless there's a platform above him.
With that said, the MU does suck and I'd say -2 for Ganon. Uair starts frame 6 btw.
xzx covered it pretty well besides that. More experienced Ganons can take the rest.
Lol I also use Ganon.
With that said, the MU does suck and I'd say -2 for Ganon. Uair starts frame 6 btw.
xzx covered it pretty well besides that. More experienced Ganons can take the rest.
Lol I also use Ganon.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
assuming both players know the matchups to its fullest (which is the definition of a matchup ANYWAY lol) I would place it at +2 for wario.
Simply put: You be slippery and we can't hit you. But if we do manage to grab you above 30% then you're dead
it cant really be described much better lol
Simply put: You be slippery and we can't hit you. But if we do manage to grab you above 30% then you're dead
it cant really be described much better lol
If we assume Wario and Ganon to fight each other then +2 Wario favor is correct. However, if we assume Wario to do whatever he can to win we will also have to take into consideration that Wario can time Ganondorf out, in which case the matchup becomes a borderline guaranteed win for Wario.
+3 Wario imo
+3 Wario imo
Rizen
Smash Legend
Here's the GR infinite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQIXyUwOccc
Why would the percent matter on a grab-release infinite, as the video description would suggest?
Rizen
Smash Legend
If Wario's at a low enough % he can break free during a pummel and ground release. 30% is a safe number (G~P used); tbh I'm not sure the exact amount.
That's my understanding.
That's my understanding.
What if you mash like a champion?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
+3
I believe Ganon is the most typical Wario MU in which the MU seems perfectly doable because of Wario's near-omnipresent weaknesses: range and grab releases. Ganondorf cannot force anything and has to commit to several reads in order to get any sort of hit in and even then his reward is of questionable value. This also counts for his grabs, his grab is slow and short-ranged and he has no way of compensating for those shortcomings. Grab isn't a threat as long as Wario properly executes his pressure properly and doesn't airdodge into you when getting grabbed will result in a chaingrab.
To be fair, the GR is severely overrated and doesn't realistically change the MU. Assuming you never end up on FD, Wario doesn't lose a ton of effective advantage if he decides to play in a way that nullifies any risk of getting grabbed when there is no platform to save him. Even then, those situations are rare and, again, cannot be forced.
The only things Ganon can force (read: condition) are empty hops. Whiffed aerials are punishable by Wario from almost every position and spaced shield approaches by Wario aren't realistically punished by anything more than Wizard Kick or Dash Attack (and even then only when Wario's timing is correctly hard read).
The problem is pretty clear, right? It's never up to Ganon to decide anything in this matchup. Even his conditioning requires consecutive reads ergo he cannot effectively condition. To add insult to injury, succesful defensive conditioning on Ganon's part doesn't reward him all that much and failure to make significant outplays gets punished rather severely by Wario.
With that said, Wario's perspective on this matchup is rather simple to explain: everything Ganon doesn't do well, Wario does. Even small reads get hard rewarded, he has all the time in the world to decide the tempo of the match and to condition Ganondorf.
There is very little counterplay for Ganon and none of it involves static, reliable advantages. I didn't pay much attention to Wario's own chaingrab and his gimping potential because that kinda speaks for itself. Ganon gets outclassed in a perhaps subtle way in a way that appears to be doable at first but is actually rather substantial when a closer look is taken.
The only reason I don't advocate +4 is because I feel +4 matchups should be unwinnable under any circumstance (i.e. even if the winning party suicides twice within the first seconds of a match, assuming equal skill) and Wario-Ganon isn't quite up there. Graves human error exists and yes Ganon can punish it really hard, it's just not something that should be assumed (and especially not in a 'best case scenario perspective', as I'd like to call it).
N.B.: if you don't understand things mentioned in this point I would urge you to ask after them, getting to understand why this matchup is so bad would be a really good way to become a better player.
I believe Ganon is the most typical Wario MU in which the MU seems perfectly doable because of Wario's near-omnipresent weaknesses: range and grab releases. Ganondorf cannot force anything and has to commit to several reads in order to get any sort of hit in and even then his reward is of questionable value. This also counts for his grabs, his grab is slow and short-ranged and he has no way of compensating for those shortcomings. Grab isn't a threat as long as Wario properly executes his pressure properly and doesn't airdodge into you when getting grabbed will result in a chaingrab.
To be fair, the GR is severely overrated and doesn't realistically change the MU. Assuming you never end up on FD, Wario doesn't lose a ton of effective advantage if he decides to play in a way that nullifies any risk of getting grabbed when there is no platform to save him. Even then, those situations are rare and, again, cannot be forced.
The only things Ganon can force (read: condition) are empty hops. Whiffed aerials are punishable by Wario from almost every position and spaced shield approaches by Wario aren't realistically punished by anything more than Wizard Kick or Dash Attack (and even then only when Wario's timing is correctly hard read).
The problem is pretty clear, right? It's never up to Ganon to decide anything in this matchup. Even his conditioning requires consecutive reads ergo he cannot effectively condition. To add insult to injury, succesful defensive conditioning on Ganon's part doesn't reward him all that much and failure to make significant outplays gets punished rather severely by Wario.
With that said, Wario's perspective on this matchup is rather simple to explain: everything Ganon doesn't do well, Wario does. Even small reads get hard rewarded, he has all the time in the world to decide the tempo of the match and to condition Ganondorf.
There is very little counterplay for Ganon and none of it involves static, reliable advantages. I didn't pay much attention to Wario's own chaingrab and his gimping potential because that kinda speaks for itself. Ganon gets outclassed in a perhaps subtle way in a way that appears to be doable at first but is actually rather substantial when a closer look is taken.
The only reason I don't advocate +4 is because I feel +4 matchups should be unwinnable under any circumstance (i.e. even if the winning party suicides twice within the first seconds of a match, assuming equal skill) and Wario-Ganon isn't quite up there. Graves human error exists and yes Ganon can punish it really hard, it's just not something that should be assumed (and especially not in a 'best case scenario perspective', as I'd like to call it).
N.B.: if you don't understand things mentioned in this point I would urge you to ask after them, getting to understand why this matchup is so bad would be a really good way to become a better player.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
then you're a prick and we hate you, doesnt ganon have enough trouble doing anything? CANT WE HAVE JUST THIS ONE THING!What if you mash like a champion?
But if you mash that well, then something like 50 or 60% is more like it
Lord Chair
Smash Master
its cool gp enjoy your staled 1% single pummels times 10
Blubolouis
Smash Lord
Times 500 if he needs too. It also charges the waft to the fullest (worst) to do it for such a long time. Ike is the same.
Labernash
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,674
Reflex will break at 100% so that infinite is unreasonable.
+2 Wario but dang Ganondorf can be annoying. Just pick your landings carefully and stuff. Get grabbed 8 times to kill% then grab 9 is a stock. (Per usual)
Big humongous props to xzx for organizing this and keeping it going to the end! Thank you bunches!
+2 Wario but dang Ganondorf can be annoying. Just pick your landings carefully and stuff. Get grabbed 8 times to kill% then grab 9 is a stock. (Per usual)
Big humongous props to xzx for organizing this and keeping it going to the end! Thank you bunches!
LOE1
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2011
- Messages
- 1,692
yeaa its +2 in my opinion(but we all know my weakness to low tiers :|)
ganon's uair is pretty annoying, so dont get predictable in the air. grab release fsmash kills me at like 80 if fresh lol, mabey less. buuut i do love me some time out. but he can kill us early, and he is a fat char, so yeaaa. Tires are still OP tho. use em for this.
main point is: dont get predictable. shouldnt be too much of a prob after that
ganon's uair is pretty annoying, so dont get predictable in the air. grab release fsmash kills me at like 80 if fresh lol, mabey less. buuut i do love me some time out
. but he can kill us early, and he is a fat char, so yeaaa. Tires are still OP tho. use em for this.main point is: dont get predictable. shouldnt be too much of a prob after that
Croi
Smash Lord
Just always keep in mind that Ganondorf is still a character, and that he can still ruin you if you're careless. Chances are if you meet a Ganondorf in bracket, he's serious.
There's not much I can add, though...don't get grabbed, watch for uairs, punish everything.
+2. +3 if you're willing to time him out. But just so you don't whine about disparities, put me as +2.
There's not much I can add, though...don't get grabbed, watch for uairs, punish everything.
+2. +3 if you're willing to time him out. But just so you don't whine about disparities, put me as +2.
Rizen
Smash Legend
Any grab tactic is valid. That's why ICs are ranked so high; it's not because they have good grabs.
People are talking about how long Ganon's GR takes. Keep in mind we don't have to pummel every time and can grab>pummel once>wait for the release>re-grab>repeat and do that to 300% without stalling. So if Ganon can land a grab, which is hard, he has a decent way to time Wario out too. As with all MUs the lead's very important for both characters.
The grab>death factor does influence the playing. Ganon won't land grabs often but he can use the threat of it when spacing Wario. Most of Ganon's game will be using the threat but not the actual GR.
Wario with the lead is just hell for Ganon.
Ganon -2/Wario +2 imo.
People are talking about how long Ganon's GR takes. Keep in mind we don't have to pummel every time and can grab>pummel once>wait for the release>re-grab>repeat and do that to 300% without stalling. So if Ganon can land a grab, which is hard, he has a decent way to time Wario out too. As with all MUs the lead's very important for both characters.
The grab>death factor does influence the playing. Ganon won't land grabs often but he can use the threat of it when spacing Wario. Most of Ganon's game will be using the threat but not the actual GR.
Wario with the lead is just hell for Ganon.
Ganon -2/Wario +2 imo.
Is there any common rule for GR infinites for stalling? Its not super practical vs Wario, but is Ganon even allowed to grab release you the entire game?
Also keep in mind that no matter where you get grabbed, Ganondorf can tech chase you. GR to Dair (pretty easy to tech, but its low lag and wario has horrible rolls) and when platforms get in the way GR to Aerudo (side b). Getting grabbed even at 0% will risk alot of damage.
Getting grabbed in the first place is alot easier to avoid though. Its not like Falcon where he can stuff almost all of your options with jab or nair and then follow you for grabs. Ganon hasn't got any grab setups so it just won't happen unless you get super predictable on your landing. This matchup really should just be coming down to Ganon's stale Uair/ftilt because he shouldn't be able to land much else if you are careful.
C/D Wario can fart ganon out of his up B hitstun glitch?
Also keep in mind that no matter where you get grabbed, Ganondorf can tech chase you. GR to Dair (pretty easy to tech, but its low lag and wario has horrible rolls) and when platforms get in the way GR to Aerudo (side b). Getting grabbed even at 0% will risk alot of damage.
Getting grabbed in the first place is alot easier to avoid though. Its not like Falcon where he can stuff almost all of your options with jab or nair and then follow you for grabs. Ganon hasn't got any grab setups so it just won't happen unless you get super predictable on your landing. This matchup really should just be coming down to Ganon's stale Uair/ftilt because he shouldn't be able to land much else if you are careful.
C/D Wario can fart ganon out of his up B hitstun glitch?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Only:
- Ganon's shield isn't as threatening because you can actually grab him without getting punished for it.
- Ganon's vertical grab range is doodoo.
- ICs aren't bothered by platforms.
- ICs have a good pivot grab.
- ICs have a faster grab.
- ICs have a faster dash.
- ICs have ranged frametraps.
- ICs have better ways of forcing landings and approaches.
Please don't ever do that again.
Rizen
Smash Legend
You're ignoring a key MU factor with Ganon; it's like saying ICs or anyone having a CG doesn't matter. I know all ^that; you just missed the point. You can't ignore factors in MUs. If Ganon does land a grab he can GR until KOing.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
No one is ignoring it. If all you're going to say is 'in the avoidable and unrealistic circumstance that Ganon manages to land a grab in the correct position for it to lead to a kill, it will lead to a kill' then you have succeeded in stating something that was never contested in the first place.
I refer back to my earlier post when it comes to the actual relevance of the infinite when it comes to actually deciding a ratio. If, as you state, most of Ganon's game comes from playing around the threat of grabbing then his game is limited to camping the areas of the stage that will not frustrate his infinite. This does not work in theory nor in practice. In short, it's not feasible to play around a certain threat if that threat becomes a grave liability: it only works if Wario decides to approach in situations that specifically discourage approaching.
I refer back to my earlier post when it comes to the actual relevance of the infinite when it comes to actually deciding a ratio. If, as you state, most of Ganon's game comes from playing around the threat of grabbing then his game is limited to camping the areas of the stage that will not frustrate his infinite. This does not work in theory nor in practice. In short, it's not feasible to play around a certain threat if that threat becomes a grave liability: it only works if Wario decides to approach in situations that specifically discourage approaching.
Rizen
Smash Legend
I'm saying a GR to death is a MU changing factor.
Ganon gets a grab and there goes Wario's lead. Ganon doesn't have to approach or chase Wario. Any time during a game if Wario gets sloppy he could pay for it with a stock, the lead and maybe being timed out. If not for that I would agree the MU is much worse.
So it appears our disagreement is about if the GR affects the MU. IMO like other infinites it's an important factor even though Ganon's grab does suck.
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
I can't in good conscience say this MU is -3 for Ganon. I understand everything Lord Chair said, but personal experience in this MU overwhelmingly suggests that it's a -2.
I still hold to the fact that in a practical tournament situation where both players want to utilize the best strategy to win against each other, that it is impossible for a Ganondorf to get timed out. TO THIS DAY (and I've been playing competitively since summer 08), my Ganondorf has not been timed out ONCE. Not in tournament or even in friendlies. I've had many opponents--after hearing this--go into matches with the intent to time me out and they all fail. And I as well have also gone into matches with the intent of timing THEM out, and I also fail, since it requires Ganon to pass up far too many punish opportunities, which is something he simply cannot afford, due to lack of proper spacing tools or projectiles.
Now the point of this tangent isn't to say that it's impossible to time out Ganondorf... but instead, in order to time out Ganondorf, you'd need to be cautious to the point where it goes BEYOND opportunism and crosses into "intentionally wasting clear punishing opportunities in order to run out the clock". And I firmly believe there are extremely few, if not zero, skilled players who would use this fundamentally counterproductive strategy against a fundamentally punishable character like Ganondorf.
This strategy is more plausible against characters who have the ability to deal damage whilst staying relatively safe with spacing or camping tools. But the way Ganon works is he runs up to you and tries to force an exchange. And Wario doesn't really have any projectiles that can keep Ganon away, so he has two choices: attack Ganon, or run away. But against a character like Ganon who has virtually 0 camping game as well as a near-univerally worse moveset than Wario, why WOULD you run away? Even the campiest, gayest Wario in the world is trained to capitalize on openings, or else how would he deal damage? And as it happens, Ganon has more openings than any other character in the game, by far.
And even if Wario keeps away from Ganon, it's Ganon's job to put pressure on Wario and force an exchange, even if it means putting himself in an unsafe position. And because Ganon is putting himself in unsafe positions, Wario SHOULD win the majority of these exchanges, which is why I feel the MU is -2. But only -2, not -3, because I feel that there's really no way that Wario CAN avoid these exchanges. He's very maneuverable, but not enough to avoid taking damage if Ganon's willing to put himself in unsafe positions. And Ganon WILL win some of these exchanges--enough to make it -2, not -3. Ganon has some decent tools like full hop Nair (likely his best move in this MU), Uair, and SHFF Bair to control air space around him, instant dash attack and wizkick to punish Wario's landings and spacing errors, as well as his grab release shenanigans (Ganon's grab is bad but his pivot grab is actually rather good--I've probably landed more pivot grabs than standing grabs on Wario in my lifetime).
Everything else about the MU has been mentioned by previous posters. You can theorycraft this MU to -3 by saying Wario can time Ganon out, but I personally believe that Ganondorf will not and cannot get timed out by Wario in a serious setting, simply due to the nature of Ganon's playstyle. Feel free to disagree with me, or try to prove me wrong if you ever meet me in person. It takes two to timeout.
I still hold to the fact that in a practical tournament situation where both players want to utilize the best strategy to win against each other, that it is impossible for a Ganondorf to get timed out. TO THIS DAY (and I've been playing competitively since summer 08), my Ganondorf has not been timed out ONCE. Not in tournament or even in friendlies. I've had many opponents--after hearing this--go into matches with the intent to time me out and they all fail. And I as well have also gone into matches with the intent of timing THEM out, and I also fail, since it requires Ganon to pass up far too many punish opportunities, which is something he simply cannot afford, due to lack of proper spacing tools or projectiles.
Now the point of this tangent isn't to say that it's impossible to time out Ganondorf... but instead, in order to time out Ganondorf, you'd need to be cautious to the point where it goes BEYOND opportunism and crosses into "intentionally wasting clear punishing opportunities in order to run out the clock". And I firmly believe there are extremely few, if not zero, skilled players who would use this fundamentally counterproductive strategy against a fundamentally punishable character like Ganondorf.
This strategy is more plausible against characters who have the ability to deal damage whilst staying relatively safe with spacing or camping tools. But the way Ganon works is he runs up to you and tries to force an exchange. And Wario doesn't really have any projectiles that can keep Ganon away, so he has two choices: attack Ganon, or run away. But against a character like Ganon who has virtually 0 camping game as well as a near-univerally worse moveset than Wario, why WOULD you run away? Even the campiest, gayest Wario in the world is trained to capitalize on openings, or else how would he deal damage? And as it happens, Ganon has more openings than any other character in the game, by far.
And even if Wario keeps away from Ganon, it's Ganon's job to put pressure on Wario and force an exchange, even if it means putting himself in an unsafe position. And because Ganon is putting himself in unsafe positions, Wario SHOULD win the majority of these exchanges, which is why I feel the MU is -2. But only -2, not -3, because I feel that there's really no way that Wario CAN avoid these exchanges. He's very maneuverable, but not enough to avoid taking damage if Ganon's willing to put himself in unsafe positions. And Ganon WILL win some of these exchanges--enough to make it -2, not -3. Ganon has some decent tools like full hop Nair (likely his best move in this MU), Uair, and SHFF Bair to control air space around him, instant dash attack and wizkick to punish Wario's landings and spacing errors, as well as his grab release shenanigans (Ganon's grab is bad but his pivot grab is actually rather good--I've probably landed more pivot grabs than standing grabs on Wario in my lifetime).
Everything else about the MU has been mentioned by previous posters. You can theorycraft this MU to -3 by saying Wario can time Ganon out, but I personally believe that Ganondorf will not and cannot get timed out by Wario in a serious setting, simply due to the nature of Ganon's playstyle. Feel free to disagree with me, or try to prove me wrong if you ever meet me in person. It takes two to timeout.
Labernash
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,674
Tesh, most tourneys say "infinites must end before 300%" But at 220% or something like that, Ganon can GR > even Jab to kill us, so they wouldn't have to break any rules.
The problem with what you said, Rizen, is that you sort of compared Ganon'a grab to IC's grab. Or at least the plausibility of landing such thing.
I've played matches against Ganons (bad ones, of course) and never getting grabbed. I just DJ over the grab and FF nair/uair/fair/bair/dair to punish.
Again, these are not top level Ganons or players. But, a simple and easy mechanic can beat Ganons grab.
He's still Ganon and booty sweat, but he's still a character in Brawl and some annoying stuff will go down.
The problem with what you said, Rizen, is that you sort of compared Ganon'a grab to IC's grab. Or at least the plausibility of landing such thing.
I've played matches against Ganons (bad ones, of course) and never getting grabbed. I just DJ over the grab and FF nair/uair/fair/bair/dair to punish.
Again, these are not top level Ganons or players. But, a simple and easy mechanic can beat Ganons grab.
He's still Ganon and booty sweat, but he's still a character in Brawl and some annoying stuff will go down.
Long time i dont play this matchup , but dont get cocky because he can gr release you to fsmash and you will prolly die at like 80% yea sucks right?. He will try to wall you with nairs, upairs. We have cg against him , anyway our mobility is way to better on the air.
So i guess ill go with +2 wario.
So i guess ill go with +2 wario.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
I think it is faulty to assume going for the timeout is the optimal way to play this matchup. In fact, I don't believe in forcing timeouts by avoiding any all and risk in any matchup because it is inherently flawed. In this regard DLA's post is absolutely 100% correct, you can't play this game without committing to (slight) risks and attempting to do so will only lead to predictable, punishable patterns.
That said, it isn't the 00:00:00 that would win Wario this matchup but it's the fact that Wario can decide on the tempo and duration of the match on which I already elaborated. I don't think that there is much more past this that can be discussed in either ratio's favor bar super specific situation analysis about which no one really cares all that much.
Or well, there is actually (too lazy to rewrite the previous). I think a major complaint I have about Ganon's options is that his strongest defensive options tend to be situation resets on which Ganon cannot capitalize all that well. Nair is a good example, it beats out a surprising amount of options but getting hit by it isn't all that discouraging whereas Wario can initiate the silliest of juggle traps from pretty much any low/grounded position when the FH nair is whiffed.
That was just as an addendum, not so much an argument.
That said, it isn't the 00:00:00 that would win Wario this matchup but it's the fact that Wario can decide on the tempo and duration of the match on which I already elaborated. I don't think that there is much more past this that can be discussed in either ratio's favor bar super specific situation analysis about which no one really cares all that much.
Or well, there is actually (too lazy to rewrite the previous). I think a major complaint I have about Ganon's options is that his strongest defensive options tend to be situation resets on which Ganon cannot capitalize all that well. Nair is a good example, it beats out a surprising amount of options but getting hit by it isn't all that discouraging whereas Wario can initiate the silliest of juggle traps from pretty much any low/grounded position when the FH nair is whiffed.
That was just as an addendum, not so much an argument.
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
Right. I'm not arguing that Ganon wins the matchup; I'm just arguing the extent to which he loses it. To me, the argument is simply "does Ganon's moveset contend well enough with Wario's to make the MU -2 as opposed to -3?" And I feel because of Nair, Uair, SHFF Bair (with proper tech skill, Ganon can do roughly 2 of these per second--most people will think twice before exposing themselves to fists of this magnitude), dash attack, and grab release shenanigans, it's fair to call it -2. Others may feel differently--though it might behoove me to mention that I have probably fought a lot more good Warios than you guys have fought good Ganons.
Rizen
Smash Legend
^This. The slow GR can be advantageous to Ganon too without breaking rules.
I'm not comparing Ganon's GR to ICs; I'm saying that every factor influences an MU. The extreme comparison was to get across that saying any tactic doesn't change a MU is not being realistic no matter how hard or easy. To say the GR does not affect the MU is saying Wario will not be grabbed once, ever, against a skilled Ganon which is not realistic. Keep in mind at low %s we can get a Dair+tech chase and under platforms an air gurudo+ tech chase. You have to include everything for ICs and Ganon and every character.
That's all I'm trying to get across.
Rizen
Smash Legend
Dair starts 16. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5216073&postcount=2
Rizen
Smash Legend
Yeah, Ganon's in the air on frame 7. so 7+16=23 frames but you'd also have to factor Wario's windup lag. *shrug*
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
I personally have trouble landing grab release -> dair. Even if I land it, it usually looks like Wario could have escaped. If it is guaranteed, it's a very tight window. More often than not, I'll just opt for the guaranteed 26% fsmash.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Thing is, your tech chasing options are limited. Wario has all the time to prepare really lame SDI and get halfway across the stage even before the tech.
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
Yeah I really wouldn't call it a tech chase against a high level player. Too many options with sDI, it really isn't worth it IMO.
Personally I'm really lazy with Ganon's grab releases on Wario. I never even bother to do the infinite, if I wanted to do really gay grab **** then I would have picked ICs.
Personally I'm really lazy with Ganon's grab releases on Wario. I never even bother to do the infinite, if I wanted to do really gay grab **** then I would have picked ICs.
