Wario's Match-Ups!

[Ayce God]

^ why are u so inactive. can you not travel ?

 

[Beat11]

^ why are u so inactive. can you not travel ?

Unfortunately, no not at this time. Jester hasn't planned anything as far as I know and I won't be getting transportation for a while so I'm kinda stuck. Don't worry though, my Link is still top notch as it was before. I've actually been theory crafting and training my Link so expect a better performance from me. I've taken down tasumaki's peach, now I'm aiming for jester's Marth. Higher goals that I need to accomplish. Somebody needs to do something cause I'm itching to play competitively again.

 

[Ayce God]

there's a small tourney in Knoxville. ask talon about it. bring that link here.

 

[Beat11]

Will do.

Anyways, if there isn't anymore opinions on the stage list, it's a wrap. +2 Wario.

 

[xzx]

Rizen: +1/+2
Labernash: +2
LOE1: +1
Biz_R_0: +2
Beat11: +2
Huggles828: +2
xzx: +2
Buff: +2
waldorf2007: +2

Yeah, the thing is that Wario doesn't destroy Link. Link still has a chance to win against Wario.
Now, Zelda: Oh, poor girl. She is easy to juggle, easy to kill, easy to predict, easy to gimp and easy to punish. The thing that makes this MU so bad for Zelda is because when Zelda is offstage, she will either get gimped or punished hard. If she is above us, she will be juggled, killed or baited. Zelda still has that range (her nair is actually good in certain situations), but it's not as bad as swords. She can grab-release us to fair/up-tilt which kills around 100-110% fresh, too bad her grab sucks. Zelda will have trouble to kill Wario outside of a grab-release, and Wario's mobilty makes it very hard for Zelda to grab and even compete with Wario. I can go on writing millions of possibilities, because Wario has so many crazy options, but I think by now that you get what I mean. +2 to Wario. Easily.

EDIT: Forgot to say how waft completely ***** Zelda, obviously. Seriously.

xzx: +2

 

[Mocha]

Zelda can grab release Wario into: Upsmash, Up-tilt, Fair, Nair, and D-air (so be careful if she grabs you near the edge). The ones you should be mostly concerned about however, is fresh Upsmash/Up-tilt, or getting sweet spotted from her Fair at killing percentage.

The thing about Wario in this MU that makes it so hard for Zelda is that he can just dance all around her, bait her into doing moves, and punish her accordingly. For example, if Wario is spending a lot of time doing footsies above her, the Zelda will eventually Up-smash. Once you learn how to stay away from this move, punishing it is profit, as she suffers enough cooldown from the move for you to be able to do just about anything.

Wario's Nair canceling, or even just Nair alone, is one of the most frustrating things for me to fight, as a Zelda. Did I also mention that Wario's Nair goes through Din's Fire?

If you plan on using bike pieces against Zelda, then be sure to have control over them, because Zelda with items provides her with one of the longest glide tosses in the game - and she's pretty good at catching the items too. Fortunately for you guys, we don't even have that many active Zeldas right now, let alone that are used to using items to their advantage.

And yes, Zelda can die very early from waft. Also Up air and fresh F-smash/F-tilt can put her in a terrible position to recover, if not kill her outright.

60:40 imo, if not 65:45. Hard to say 70:30 because her MUs in that category are absolutely atrocious, and far worse than what Wario can do to her.

 

[Rizen]

I also use Zelda.
Basically what Mocha said. Wario's mobility baits moves and makes the match full of difficult reads for Zelda and she does not have the endurance for it.

Specifics:
Din's gets eaten by almost every hitbubble but Zelda can aim it above Wario and hit him off his bike or follow up after launching. It's bad but don't assume it's worthless.

I find spacing the wario MU like waltzing with him; Zelda moves shorter distances but has better range. Usmash is easier to land when Wario's close but that puts Zelda in risk too. Zelda can avoid lag somewhat by air dancing with Nairs/Fairs/Bair and throw in a dash attack/grab to punish landings. Jab spaced right has little payoff but is safe and Ftilt/Utilt are like less committed smashes as far as spacing. Dtilt lock is worth mentioning because it builds damage from 50%-100%ish depending on how fast you DI out and brings Wario near KOing %s. Zelda's Dsmash is frame 3, like ROB's, and serves as a GTFO move but probably won't KO in this.

Watch out for Zelda's KO power, she has trouble landing moves but will kill surprisingly early when she does. Her Uair is THE strongest in the game.

Wario can intercept Zelda, Din's causes free falling and upB has a lot of start lag. Zelda shouldn't go far offstage but she can try to hop out and LK/Dair above the stage or Dtilt spike or Dtilt>Dsmash when Wario is near the ledge. And Din's when Wario's far, Usmash landings or Uair dodges and lag including sloppy high bike recoveries.

Zelda can use Nayru's to 'love jump' and fill minor spacing situations in the air, it can punish dodge lag with duration but is punishable and low payoff. It reflects bouncing tires/bike. It's worth mentioning I guess.

All of the above take good reads, however.
Zelda also dies early and Wario has advantages in speed, lag, mobility and weight.
IMO Zelda -2/+2 Wario suits it best. Wario wins but don't start getting cocky.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'm honestly gonna say that it isn't as bad as you make it sound.

It certainly is at a -2 level but all it takes are a few mistakes. Zelda's grab is bad, it's range on pivot though is not. Easy to grab unsuspecting Warios. Now it gets bad, if you are at > 100%, you die. If you are at < 100%, GR to Dair can force a tech-chase situation where you may be grabbed again. Damage will build quick like that.

Nair and Jab are amazing tools here since they are low cooldown, so Zelda never has to commit. We can keep to at bay. If we get cornered or lose the lead, that's when things get bad for us. Our movements can be read without too much trouble, and being stuck there limits those moves.

As far as fart, it should only hit on a fireball read, or a good read offstage. It isn't a end all be all but it is still hella scary.

Also, we can kill you out of Dtilt with a buffered Bair, not to mention a simple grab since that works as well. Don't get caught!

Tbh, it can easily be a -1 if it weren't for the threat of Wario camping with his movement and forcing a TERRIBLE approach when he has the lead. Time-out Wario is nasty to us. So I'll stick with a -2 since that is ever present.

 

[Tesh]

This matchup is easily -3 to -4 if you are willing to time out a poor low tier. -1 to -2 if you just want the challenge of a fight. Zelda is horribly slow and has no safe way to take a lead back from Wario.

 

[Mocha]

Alright Tesh, you and I, Wario vs Zelda next time we see each other. I remember we did some friendlies of this MU ages ago, but I can barely remember it. You started to beat me more once you camped me more. Then on the other hand, Illmatic's pocket Wario went even with me most of the times (with sometimes me winning or him) because he was too aggressive.

This MU is not -4, and even -3 is a bit of a stretch. You know who is -4 for Zelda? Meta Knight and Olimar. Are you trying to tell me that Wario is as bad for her as those? o.O

 

[Rizen]

I'll back that it's not worse than -2 for Zelda.

Stages: Zelda wants smaller stages and Wario will probably want bigger. Zelda can use small spaces and platforms to help land moves that wario could otherwise dodge. She has a good platform poking game.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Tbh, as far as stages are concerned, go where you are comfy. Wario will have a way to run around no matter what. There's no stopping that so instead, go where you feel best about fighting Wario.

Joking aside, I like YI:B against Wario. Stage really messes him up.

Tesh.......no. No way. I don't even think MK is a -4 imo for Zelda but this isn't the place to argue it. However, -3 in itself means that something about the MU makes it close to unwinnable. That trait isn't here..... Sure, Wario's defensive optoins are very strong here, but not insurmountable; just quite difficult. Quite.

Again, very confident in saying -2.
-1 if the Wario tries to get cute.

Spoiler

which shouldn't happen, this long into the game

 

[Tesh]

Alright Tesh, you and I, Wario vs Zelda next time we see each other. I remember we did some friendlies of this MU ages ago, but I can barely remember it. You started to beat me more once you camped me more. Then on the other hand, Illmatic's pocket Wario went even with me most of the times (with sometimes me winning or him) because he was too aggressive.

This MU is not -4, and even -3 is a bit of a stretch. You know who is -4 for Zelda? Meta Knight and Olimar. Are you trying to tell me that Wario is as bad for her as those? o.O

Illmatic is a pretty aggressive player regardless of character choice. Most people won't even bother camping a character as bad as Zelda because it takes twice as long to win when you could easily just overpower her even with Wario.

Come over to Sync's some time and we will play and I will show you how difficult it is to catch anyone, especially Wario with Zelda.

Tbh, as far as stages are concerned, go where you are comfy. Wario will have a way to run around no matter what. There's no stopping that so instead, go where you feel best about fighting Wario.

Joking aside, I like YI:B against Wario. Stage really messes him up.

Tesh.......no. No way. I don't even think MK is a -4 imo for Zelda but this isn't the place to argue it. However, -3 in itself means that something about the MU makes it close to unwinnable. That trait isn't here..... Sure, Wario's defensive optoins are very strong here, but not insurmountable; just quite difficult. Quite.

Again, very confident in saying -2.
-1 if the Wario tries to get cute.

Spoiler

which shouldn't happen, this long into the game

Actually...I think this IS the place to argue about it. All Wario really needs to do is just camp from the very beginning of the game, by the time Zelda has landed a few hits, a minute or so has passed and u just need to get her offstage for an easy fart on her recovery.

Although, iirc you are from a region with a strong wario right? If you ever bother using zelda instead of sheik for that matchup, show me how you avoid this type of thing.

 

[Rizen]

Ed meant not the place for MK vs Zelda discussion. Are there videos to back up the -4 for Zelda? Or any MU rating like -2?

 

[Tesh]

Oh my bad, I skimmed the post sort of and missed that.

Btw, MK and Olimar can be caught by Zelda (with an LGL), because they either stay on the ground or risk being outmanuevered. Once Wario has the lead, it takes a serious commitment to even try to read him.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Timely dash attacks on landings if he is too close. Just stay mobile and always be wary of the range Wario is at. Mid range to Mid-long range is dangerous because it lulls you into thinking you're safe. You are certainly not. Limit all commitments and just keep moving to keep him on his toes.

As far as him having a lead. Yes it is awful. Very awful, considering we have no real approach to him. Essentially, trying to rush him down, the only way is to read his movement habits. That's it. Not too hard to do that but it's all a matter of learning your opponent. Zelda's long reaching grab isn't too bad to surprise Wario here. Maybe a fireball here and there just to keep him guessing lol.

 

[Tesh]

What can Zelda get out of a grab release with your standard BF/SV platforms in the way?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

At least Nair if I'm not mistaken. Don't know the frame data so I'll consult CJ 2moro. Need to experiment with the kicks to see if they can land. I don't believe they can though. SV can lead to a regrab which can be DOOM!!!!!!

 

[Tesh]

Yea, I assume on SV you PC->regrab-> Dair

Although her grab is pretty slow, that might not even work lol.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

True, but there's a good chance it does lol.

For BF, I actually think Usmash will clip Wario. I know Sheik's works so assuming Zelda's does as well. Any damage counts

 

[Tesh]

yea usmash would clip, not sure if the final hit would link properly tho, funny though it seems to trip alot when tht happens

 

[#HBC | Scary]

If it does trip, it can easily be fatal thanks to a kick on the follow up.

 

[Mocha]

Illmatic is a pretty aggressive player regardless of character choice. Most people won't even bother camping a character as bad as Zelda because it takes twice as long to win when you could easily just overpower her even with Wario.

Come over to Sync's some time and we will play and I will show you how difficult it is to catch anyone, especially Wario with Zelda.


Actually...I think this IS the place to argue about it. All Wario really needs to do is just camp from the very beginning of the game, by the time Zelda has landed a few hits, a minute or so has passed and u just need to get her offstage for an easy fart on her recovery.

Although, iirc you are from a region with a strong wario right? If you ever bother using zelda instead of sheik for that matchup, show me how you avoid this type of thing.

When is Sync having a Smashfest again? I'd like that. It's been ages since I played you guys. But yes, the reason I'm bringing up aggressive Wario vs campy Wario is because I personally find the MU easier when he's not camping. Though I suppose most of you could say something along the lines of 'If the Wario is not camping, he's not doing it right.' Lets just hope that my rustiness and mentality of Brawl doesn't cloud my MU overview when I fight more Warios. And lets hope I can play more Warios. I hate playing a MU like one time and basing it off of that.

Yea, I assume on SV you PC->regrab-> Dair

Although her grab is pretty slow, that might not even work lol.

Her grab is slow, but she has moves to 'set her up' into a grab, such as aerial canceling (particularly Nair), and Down Tilt. The range is nice though, especially her pivot - but yes, it is slow.

*Edit* Ed, I just noticed your new avatar. Lmao

 

[ぱみゅ]

If more Warios went for timeouts everytime, against everyone (even themselves), his MUs would be much more polarized as his metagame would turn around the characters' ability to land hits.
He'd had many +3 and +4's and some -3's.

 

[Tesh]

When is Sync having a Smashfest again? I'd like that. It's been ages since I played you guys. But yes, the reason I'm bringing up aggressive Wario vs campy Wario is because I personally find the MU easier when he's not camping. Though I suppose most of you could say something along the lines of 'If the Wario is not camping, he's not doing it right.' Lets just hope that my rustiness and mentality of Brawl doesn't cloud my MU overview when I fight more Warios. And lets hope I can play more Warios. I hate playing a MU like one time and basing it off of that.



Her grab is slow, but she has moves to 'set her up' into a grab, such as aerial canceling (particularly Nair), and Down Tilt. The range is nice though, especially her pivot - but yes, it is slow.

*Edit* Ed, I just noticed your new avatar. Lmao

I didn't think about dtilt. We are actually talking about SV grab releases. Do you think Zelda can platform cancel into dtilt into grab? I doubt she can leave the ground then land then get out her frame 12(?) grab in time, but dtilt is frame 4 right?

PM me your skype name, i'll let you know when something is going down. Some of us are going to Dallas so I expect some practice within the week.

 

[Mocha]

Yes she can platform cancel to D-tilt into grab, but it's tricky to pull off, as she can accidentally platform cancel into a Down smash or a non canceled Down air :/ - she's actually better off platform canceling to grab, but this is obviously stage dependent, and SV is the best for this. If you're worried about being grabbed as Wario and platform cancels to grabs, just go to BF (as far as neutrals go). Or take her to Yoshi's Island to abuse the walls on the stage that 'eat' Zelda's recovery, which forces her to recover straight up to avoid it (which means more edgehogging against her).

Ed, what was the frame data for Zelda's Down tilt? I believe it's her second fastest move, right? I remember ages ago people were saying it WAS her fastest move, and now they say Down smash is, with D-tilt being second.

Also, D-tilt has locking properties when you're about 50%, fresh - and yes, you can eventually SDI it, but Zelda can get a couple of hits before following up once she notices you will start to escape it. Then you start popping up from D-tilt at around 90% + up, in which Zelda can follow up with an Up-tilt or Up-smash for the kill, assuming they are fresh. If your damage is too high, you will pop up too high for her to follow up with those, leaving her with only Up air, which isn't that reliable.

Alright, pm'ing you (:

By the way, just for you guys to get an idea of how far Zelda can glide toss, look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a291AvPIKPM&list=PL40F04DE62939407E

And go to 0:48. She went almost all the way across the stage o.o

Also, the video is from like 2011 and we both played bad in this. Still, don't underestimate Zelda with items.

 

[Rizen]

Zelda: Dtilt

• Startup: 1 - 4
  
• Hitbox: 5 - 11
  
• Cooldown / IASA: 12 - 24, 25 (IASA)

Wario could be called for stalling. I've never actually heard of that happening but it is a tourney rule.
lol text color format.

 

[Labernash]

Stalling refers to the act of making the game unplayable, like turning invisible for the whole match or one character being frozen. Running away isn't "stalling" in the context of the rule.

 

[DMG]

You could somewhat try to construe it towards Wario running away vs Zelda. Wario literally moves faster in the air than Zelda RUNS lol.

 

[Tesh]

You could somewhat try to construe it towards Wario running away vs Zelda. Wario literally moves faster in the air than Zelda RUNS lol.

Not to mention he can change directions half a dozen times without risking a landing or a trip.

 

[Rizen]

YWario literally moves faster in the air than Zelda RUNS lol.

As fast.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13929949&postcount=1

Spoiler

Air Speed

Air Speed List Hide
1. Yoshi (1.32)
2. Jigglypuff (1.27)
3. Wario (1.22)
3. Wolf (1.22)
5. Captain Falcon (1.18)
6. Sonic (1.11)
7. Donkey Kong (1.08)
7. Mr. Game & Watch (1.08)
7. Squirtle (1.08)
10. Lucas (1.05)
11. Bowser (1.03)
11. Marth (1.03)
11. Zero Suit Samus (1.03)
14. Charizard (0.99)
14. Lucario (0.99)
14. Samus (0.99)
14. Zelda (0.99)
18. Ness (0.96)
19. Mario (0.94)
19. Snake (0.94)
19. Toon Link (0.94)
22. Ike (0.92)
23. Pikachu (0.91)
24. Falco (0.89)
24. Fox (0.89)
24. Peach (0.89)
24. Pit (0.89)
24. R.O.B. (0.89)
29. Ganondorf (0.85)
29. Kirby (0.85)
29. Sheik (0.85)
32. Diddy Kong (0.83)
33. Olimar (0.82)
34. Link (0.81)
35. Ice Climbers (0.77)
36. Ivysaur (0.75)
36. Meta Knight (0.75)
38. Luigi (0.73)
39. King Dedede (0.66)





Running Speed

Running Speed List Hide
1. Sonic (3.50)
2. Captain Falcon (2.18)
3. Fox (2.08)
4. Zero Suit Samus (1.93)
5. Sheik (1.92)
6. Meta Knight (1.85)
7. Charizard (1.80)
8. Pikachu (1.76)
9. Diddy Kong (1.72)
10. Marth (1.70)
11. Yoshi (1.68)
12. Toon Link (1.65)
13. Donkey Kong (1.62)
14. Pit (1.58)
15. Mr. Game & Watch (1.55)
16. Bowser (1.53)
17. Ivysaur (1.50)
17. Lucas (1.50)
17. Mario (1.50)
17. R.O.B. (1.50)
21. Samus (1.45)
22. Falco (1.43)
23. Lucario (1.41)
24. Olimar (1.40)
24. Wolf (1.40)
26. Ice Climbers (1.39)
26. Ness (1.39)
28. Ike (1.37)
28. Kirby (1.37)
28. Squirtle (1.37)
31. Peach (1.35)
31. Snake (1.35)
31. Wario (1.35)
34. Luigi (1.34)
35. Link (1.33)
36. King Dedede (1.22)
36. Zelda (1.22)
38. Ganondorf (1.16)
39. Jigglypuff (1.10)

Before people go on about Zelda's abyssal mobility, she's 14th in air speed.

Wario's faster.
The question is can wario avoid Zelda on whatever stages enough to justify a worse MU for Zelda than -2?

Also keep in mind Zelda's hitbubbles are huge. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312816

We're not talking a good MU, for Zelda it's -2 wario solidly wins. But can you justify it being any worse? Say on SV can wario really run enough to have a +3 advantage? And back it up of course (vids etc).

 

[Labernash]

Hence why Wario camping isn't a game breaking act.

But it ain't fun.

 

[Tesh]

Lol Wario can run pretty hard on FD.

Any platform coverage makes this even harder to deal with. Its basically scrooging over the top of SV.

 

[Rizen]

Lol Wario can run pretty hard on FD.

Any platform coverage makes this even harder to deal with. Its basically scrooging over the top of SV.

Starters: Strike FD

Game 1 will be on one of these:
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)

Lucario has the same air speed as Zelda and Wario's +1 vs Lucario. Relating to the video.

I've yet to see why Wario has a better MU than +2 on Zelda or how badly he can run from her. Zelda does have a good platform poking game.

Edit:
Zelda's an uncommon MU so there's few examples. I just think her potential is being downplayed.
Given, I'm not the best Zelda but no one has posted any Wario/Zelda vids so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQh5PE20UI4


Waiting for better vids from people.

 

[Iota]

Lucario has a better moveset than Zelda, is heavier, and has aura. Zelda's range is kinda lack luster in the air outside of uair so most of her moves are kinda unsafe if you whiff in our punishing range. People are being a tad silly if they're arguing for +3 though. We **** Zelda, but not that badly. If Zelda whiffs u-smash feel free to punish it however you like during her billion frames of vulnerability.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The thing with this MU is the Risk/reward.
Zelda takes high risks and gets mid, mid-high reward, Wario takes mid risks and a very high reward, specially as the fart kills insanely early.

btw, Zelda's main aerial move is Nair, and given Wario isn't really at a great advantage to try to challenge it in the first place, it probably could be a bit difficult to get through...

 

[Iota]

Bair can get through nair fairly well. Getting through Zelda's wall can be a pain in the *** though, which is why I like getting out tires and bike, regardless of her item game.

 

[xzx]

xzx: +2
Mocha: +2
Rizen: +2
ScaryLB59: +2
Tesh: +3/+4

Can Zelda do the infinite grab release on Wario if Wario has lost his second jump and is grabbed at the ledge? (Because R.O.B. can...)

 

[DMG]

@Rizen: Last time I checked Wario was faster. That was 3 years ago though loool. Either way, point being Zelda is super duper slow.

I'd rate it 2.5 if you had to use that system

 

[LOE1]

its +2 dammit. zelda can kill us early, and dont get predictable with stuff.zelda has those hard punish options