Wario's Match-Ups!

[Lord Chair]

With that logic you can make every matchup seem doable.

 

[xzx]

But do Bowser have infinite(s) thing(s) on Wario? I wanna now the inputs and the frames Bowser has on both releases.

 

[DMG]

Bowser has grab release infinites on both air and ground release. On ground release, he gets 10 frames (maybe 11 I don't remember) extra to move before the opponent. So he can regrab you before you can get out. On air release, it's basically the same as every character who can regrab.

 

[xzx]

Sooo...... how many frames does Wario have to escape both releases? If Wario has the same amounts of frames to escape Yoshi's infinite as Bowser's, I could see the MU being a lil' easier for Bowser. And if we are not air released, we will get ground released anyway. I can see that Wario rather wants to get ground released though. But numbers, please.

EDIT:

> "When Bowser ground or air releases an opponent, Bowser only suffers from 20 frames of lag, allowing him to chaingrab or attack out of any grab release. "

> "Wario, who is known for having serious grab release issues, experiences the lag of most characters during his ground release. His air release, however, does not send him any horizontal distance at all, leaving him extremely vulnerable for 20 frames in front of the opponent. This causes him to be the prime target for many grab release combos, and possibly even infinites for those who can force him to jump break."

 

[DMG]

He doesn't. It's an infinite if the opponent doesn't mess up, and if you know the infinite both ways you aren't gonna mess up a lot.

Bowser infinites on ground release and air release. Both ways, you won't travel very far horizontally. Ground release imo is slightly better because the window is stricter on the regrab but that's about it.

 

[Labernash]

King Kong placed 5 at a fairly important tourney. He came out of retirement for that one tourney, haha! Don't remember what it was.

Bowsers gud bro

 

[B!squick]

With that logic you can make every matchup seem doable.

Have to have that logic when you play Bowser.

But yeah, if Bowser grabs you, you're probably going to lose a stock or be close to it. That's pretty much all Bowser can do well, normal grab, SideB grab, and UpB out of shield.

And yeah, King Kong is legit.

 

[Biz_R_0]

With that logic you can make every matchup seem doable.

I've beaten Olimars with Ganondorf. Granted they were entry level tier *****s, but still.

 

[Croi]

I've beaten Olimars with Ganondorf. Granted they were entry level tier *****s, but still.

I've beaten wifi MKs with Ganon in 59 seconds, MU's only -1 you heard it here first

 

[LOE1]

bowser grabs are legit...

 

[xzx]

He doesn't. It's an infinite if the opponent doesn't mess up, and if you know the infinite both ways you aren't gonna mess up a lot.

Bowser infinites on ground release and air release. Both ways, you won't travel very far horizontally. Ground release imo is slightly better because the window is stricter on the regrab but that's about it.

Okay, then I change my ratio to +2 instead. Didn't know Bowser had an infinite on Wario. Should I be afraid when battling Bowsers? xD

xzx: +2
Biz_R_0: +2
Iota: +3
Labernash: +2
DMG: +2/+3
LOE1: +2

 

[(S!C)]

+3 for wario

 

[Biz_R_0]

Should I be afraid when battling Bowsers? xD

Yes. You see that Bowser over there? He's better than you. A lot better. That's why he picked Bowser. Also because he knows the MU like the back of his hand and you've probably never played a competent Bowser before. So yes, be afraid.

 

[Iota]

Bowser players are rarely gonna be better than you. There are only like...5-6 good bowsers at most in existence atm so you should rarely be afraid of fighting him. Just don't get gimmicked or grabbed and you'll do fine. With that said y'all are supposed to be discussing the MU based off of top level play, not biased experience from when you got outplayed by a pocket Bowser.

 

[Luco]

With that logic you can make every matchup seem doable.

Oh but it is. Best part about being a low tier: Everything -2 and below seems like a 0 and everything worse than that becomes a -2.

Why do I keep coming here?? Sorry guys! Guess all my usual discussion areas are slow atm.

 

[Biz_R_0]

@Luco You're welcome in our home so long as you're contributing not just screaming "WARIO SUCKS".

@Iota someone earlier in the thread mentioned that people who pick Bowser usually only do so because they're clearly better than their opponent (ex. Vex vs LOE), and who's seriously played enough Bowser's to know the MU that well?

 

[Luco]

Eh, wario's fine. When I first played brawl I was iffy when it came to him as a character, then it was like "Get over it!" So I did, wario's top tier and here I am.

Do Bowser and Wario both have infinites on each other?? @.@

 

[Biz_R_0]

Yeah, it's weird.

 

[Iota]

Wario has a 0-death CG. It's not really hard but Wario mains are lazy about practicing the CG.

I don't really know. Maybe Glutonny if he's played Acid's bowser. Nobody lives in the same region as a Bowser main outside of Sky, who probably hasn't gotten the chance to play Zigsta yet or has played limit when he frequented tourneys.

 

[LOE1]

....dammit vex :|

 

[Seagull Joe]

Bowser players are rarely gonna be better than you. There are only like...5-6 good bowsers at most in existence atm so you should rarely be afraid of fighting him. Just don't get gimmicked or grabbed and you'll do fine. With that said y'all are supposed to be discussing the MU based off of top level play, not biased experience from when you got outplayed by a pocket Bowser.

<Top 5 .

Play me sometime soon Iota. I mained this character for 2 years prior to . Matchup is probably +3 . I could see it being +2 if the could consistently infinite and get the grab, but isn't amazing at forcing a grab on who is constantly in the air.

 

[Labernash]

Luco can post wherever I post. <3

Also, there is only like two great Bowser mains, then a few good ones. Me and Zigsta (quit), then everyone else respectively.

 

[Seagull Joe]

No.

 

[LOE1]

thank god i didnt go wario vs you seagull

 

[Cassius.]

I have no idea who Labernash is, and Zigsta was never great. That, of course, can be argued, but I don't think he ever maximized his potential. We as players will just take what we can get, and Zigsta just happened to be the only Bowser player that existed during his period and so we assumed it didn't get better than him in terms of experience.

Seagull can rightfully say he's a top 5 Bowser because no other Bowser players exist, but I'm willing to assume he is good since he's been playing the dude for years now. There should be no excuse lol.

Anyway, regarding this match up there's not really anything to say, which is why I don't really see the point of discussing match ups when the game has been out for so long, INCLUDING the fact that Bowser's metagame has not changed since 2009. Players have just gotten better at executing certain things, but the game-plan is the same as always (this can honestly be said for nearly half of the cast), this game is getting old now lol. And it's weird to think that because Melee went for nearly eight years before Brawl came out, and we're almost at five.

But yeah it's just the same **** as always, Bowser will try and grab Wario, and if he does it becomes a put your controller down type of thing (assuming that the Bowser player is decent at grab-releasing, and I say decent because re-grabbing Wario off of mere reactions is a lot easier than your average joe for me) but as usual Wario is Wario and so theoretically as we always claim Wario should not be getting grabbed. Then we realize theory and actual player skill are too different and then we understand that it is possible for Wario to get grabbed, but that it is pretty difficult given what Bowser actually is.

Wario has the chain-grab and legitimate followups to it, which is something Bowser lacks. He has follow-ups and set ups, but they're not real things.

I personally would label it as -2 because it's nowhere near as nuts as facing Yoshi or facing MK is, but for the sake of being realistic it's at -3 and I highly doubt it will or should go anywhere else. The thing about facing Yoshi is that once Bowser gets grabbed, you either die, or you don't. And although Wario players don't really practice the chain-grab, it's not something like a Day-1 Ice Climbers player type chaingrab, so it is still very real and very possible. and in that situation you either die, or you die, but for some un-named reason, Wario players can't do it.

The chaingrab on Bowser is not difficult by any means, and I don't understand why it isn't more of a relevant factor. Have you guys not heard of buffering? That's really all it takes lol. I don't understand how or why LOE even lost that match against Vex considering how washed up his Bowser is...but Vex is a better player so I guess that's the excuse.

And Iota, I live on the east coast (NYC). Zigsta would have a better chance of playing Sky before I do. And I stopped entering tournaments frequently because I hold my college education to a higher value and because Long Island is eternities away (and I'm lazy). Upstate NY's Brawl scene is absolute b a l l s. Only me, Sh@rky, K!D g0ggles, P1kaP1ka and s@n occasionally exist.

 

[Iota]

My bad. I thought you lived on the WC for some reason. Thanks for the write-up.

 

[xzx]

xzx: +2
Biz_R_0: +2
Iota: +3
Labernash: +2
DMG: +2/+3
LOE1: +2
(S!C): +3
Seagull Joe: +2/+3
Limit-: +2/+3

Okay my point now was that we would discuss CF now, but if we look at the list above, it's almost a tie (more like: there are too many "+2/+3"). If every "+2/+3" would be "+3", the ratios would be like this: +2 * 4 | +3 * 5. However, if all "+2/+3" would be "+2", it would be like this: +2 * 7 | +3 * 2. I know this is "just numbers", but I want some of you to change your ratios to either +2 or +3. After that we will discuss CF.

 

[Luco]

Yo zxz, you wouldn't consider providing links to OPs for the rest of the cast past wolf in discussion would you?

For cataloging purposes and what-not.... =)

 

[Iota]

Last time I was the one who did that. I'll probably do it again once MU discussion is over unless I feel like doing earlier or if xzx does it. I think I'm gonna suggest some ways to clean up the OP once we're done too...

 

[Uncle]

Sorry I'm late, Warios. I wanted to chime in earlier, but I procrastinated a bit. To me, Wario vs. Bowser is a clear +3 for Wario.

In practice, though, it often ends up being closer than that, because so many Warios screw up the chaingrab and Bowser MU experience is beyond scarce. I'm practically the only active Bowser in the southeast, Joe's northeast, Limit's upstate NY, and that's about it for active Bowsers in the US right now.

When this MU is played to the utmost efficiency by both sides, there's no way Bowser is going to win it without ultimate outplaying. Chaingrabs are a plus for both sides, but consider this......

-Wario doesn't have to rely on grab release, which has obvious reliability issues (pummeling, mashing, and whatnot)

-Wario is a mobility monster, while Bowser is surprisingly quick, but nowhere near Wario in this regard.

-Bowser's grab animations and grab reach are underwhelming, overall.

It's true that Warios need to get better at buffering, but once they do, the risk-reward ratio skyrockets in Wario's favor. Even if you completely disregard the chaingrab, Wario can effectively get in and out of Bowser's comfort zone while racking up damage like a boss. The Bite is a huge asset against a character who cites OOS options as one of his claims to fame. Bowser is also hampered by the fact that Wario just doesn't die anywhere as easily as most fast foes. Wario's combination of size, weight, and mobility is too good.

While it's true that Wario's rather short ranged attacks allow Bowser to take advantage of him in certain cases, the mobility more than makes up for that. The final nail in Bowser's coffin comes from the fact that Wario doesn't even have to approach if he plays his cards right. How hard is it for a good Wario to get a % lead and then proceed to aircamp the **** out of Bowser? Bowser is poorly suited to catch a determined Wario in the lead, and time-outs are more than possible.

With all this doom and gloom, you'd think I'd be vouching for a +4 for you guys, but I'm not. It's still Bowser: He hits hard, he lives long, a decent number of his attacks have solid range, and if he grabs you, bad things usually happen to your ***. In short, don't get grabbed, keep your buffering strong, and keep doing what Wario does best. If by some bizarre miracle we see Bowser's players surge in future results, I suppose a +2 would be POSSIBLE, but for now (and probably forever), a +3 feels just right. It really is a nightmare for us when the Wario knows what he's doing.

 

[xzx]

xzx: +2
Biz_R_0: +2
Iota: +3
Labernash: +2
DMG: +2/+3
LOE1: +2
(S!C): +3
Seagull Joe: +2/+3
Limit-: +2/+3
Uncle: +3

@Luco: I don't really know how to do it (it was Iota who did it), so that's his chore. =P

@Iota: Please do it whenever you want!

@Uncle: Although I see your point (and agree with them), don't forget that Wario puts himself in a risk when he tries to grab Bowser. Jab, f-tilt and grab are good spacing tools against Wario. But as said, a good Wario should never be fishing for a grab anyway, since that's punishable.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I fixed the OP. For the future, when linking to the beginning of each character's discussion, click the top-right number, then the top-right link of THAT page to link correctly no matter how many posts per page are there.

 

[PMC66]

+3 for wario he's got vastly better tools and options than bowser and his grab range is better. Bowser is too big to not get grabbed at dumb times and most of bowser's stage control is redundant because of how floaty wario is.

all bowser can really do is just space himself and hope for the best, can't see it going well for him sadly.

 

[Croi]

+3 Wario, let's stop talking about Bowser now.

 

[Labernash]

Please stop talking about Bowser

 

[Luco]

I fixed the OP. For the future, when linking to the beginning of each character's discussion, click the top-right number, then the top-right link of THAT page to link correctly no matter how many posts per page are there.

Haha, all i meant was that the discussion's moved all the way to Bowser and there's only links to Wolf. Was thinking the ones in between should probably be updated, is all. ^^

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Oh, I didn't see your post. I just learned how the linking works, so I fixed what was there.

 

[Luco]

Ah yea, naww it's just interesting to see some of the discussions had here. I just went back and read some of the posts we discussed. Which reminds me, Wario is far from one of Ness' worst MUs seibrik, i'm totally sure of it. Also, Ness is one of the top 10 chars in the game to go against MK. We're trying to change that one to -1. G&W is hard as heck for us but not as hard as Marth, DDD and a few others. :I

Anyway, there's been 4 pages of Bowser discussion, do we move on to Falcon or continue with Bowser?

We... we.... well, guess i'm with you guys for the ride now. Hooked me in. I'll drop by every so often.

 

[xzx]

xzx: +2
Biz_R_0: +2
Iota: +3
Labernash: +2
DMG: +2/+3
LOE1: +2
(S!C): +3
Seagull Joe: +2/+3
Limit-: +2/+3
Uncle: +3
PMC66: +3
Croi: +3

Okay, I'll put the Bowser MU as +3. The reason some characters are getting "more time" in their discussions is because some of you set the MU as "+X/+Y" and therefore it is hard for me to decide whenever they are going to be X or Y. So if you could clearly set a ratio for the MU, it would be great. I'll appreciate it.

Now, let's move on to Captain Falcon: Basically Wario has a chain grab on him from 0%-70% and nice setups to grab him, but sometimes we damage him instead and the chain grab doesn't have that much of an "input" anyway (since always fishing for a grab is easy to read and punish). In "return", CF has nice grab release options (like always getting a sweet spot fair and can even do an up-angled f-smash and various aerials too) and can get that KO he always wanted. CF also has nice range (especially in his up-air) and is fast and mobile. However, Wario has the upper hand off stage, and exploits with the bike (as a projectle) and the tires can really chip in some neat damage. Wario has a good poking and string game too, but other than that, this MU is +1 to Wario. It is almost close to even, but Wario has that mobility, chain grab and bite mixups that grants him the favour. Oh, and watch out for CF's nair. It's a pain.

xzx: +1

 

[DMG]

I thought the range was more like 20-70? On the CG I mean