Biz_R_0
Smash Ace
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I didn't mean "Uair = instadeath gg", I meant it killed rather early due to it being a powerful vertical finisher versus a character that's the floatiest next to Peach and Jigglypuff.
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Wario's Match-Ups!
- Thread starter xzx
- Start date
That's fair.
Uair does hit us a lot at low percentages, but Samus has a good amount of recovery tricks to make landing Uair in kill percentages kinda tough.
Pretty much.
Uair does hit us a lot at low percentages, but Samus has a good amount of recovery tricks to make landing Uair in kill percentages kinda tough.
no idea about samus, i mean who plays samus anymore lol. never played a good one
Pretty much.
quiKsilverItaly
Smash Journeyman
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- 268
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEW2dOxrAQ
Me vs. Glutonny at a tournament. watch game 4 and 5 for Samus action.
In my opinion it is Wario +1 in his favor
Me vs. Glutonny at a tournament. watch game 4 and 5 for Samus action.
In my opinion it is Wario +1 in his favor
quiKsilverItaly
Smash Journeyman
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Is any one of you guys at Apex?
We could play a serious set/money match.. i am pretty sure, i would change your opinion!
We could play a serious set/money match.. i am pretty sure, i would change your opinion!
Luigi player
Smash Master
Wario ***** Samus!
I've played Hive and Xyro in the distant past, but, that doesn't necessarily say what the matchup is like now.
I'll still put my vote behind +2, though; I don't think that's unreasonable to think.
I'll still put my vote behind +2, though; I don't think that's unreasonable to think.
xzx: +2
Iota: +2
DtJ Composer: +2
Biz_R_0: +2
quiKsilverItaly: +1
TheReflexWonder: +2
@quiksilver: Just because a player is good with Samus and does well against Warios doesn't necessarily mean that the MU should be +1. With that logic the DDD MU vs Wario would have been even. =P
Iota: +2
DtJ Composer: +2
Biz_R_0: +2
quiKsilverItaly: +1
TheReflexWonder: +2
@quiksilver: Just because a player is good with Samus and does well against Warios doesn't necessarily mean that the MU should be +1. With that logic the DDD MU vs Wario would have been even. =P
Is that so? I don't really beat Dedede players. 
i know that feel broIs that so? I don't really beat Dedede players.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
+2 seems fair, Quik is retardedly good against Wario though I wouldn't recommend any of you guys MMing him unless you want to feed him money (though his wallet is a very reasonable cause for your $$). I don't think Glutonny had anything close to solid Samus exp.
Wario decides the pace of the matchup at almost any time and timing her out is a super legitimate win condition in a very horrible way. If you have any sort of lead you can just abuse it in the normal way: Samus will have to approach and she sucks **** at that. However, even if she ends up having a lead it's still possible to force her to exceed the ledge grab limit because of how her ledge game works. If played correctly, a timeout will always end in your favor which is super dumb.
The ledge game is one thing Glutonny failed horribly at. You don't necessarily get guaranteed hits off ledgeguarding her but it's realistic to force her to remain there. Glut maintained a spacing that would allow Quik to poke his shield with fair safely because he didn't have the space to jump away and bait it out. When he did get hit by it his SDI was off and he failed to steer the situation to his favor, even when he tried he didn't seem aware of his or Samus' options.
Wario decides the pace of the matchup at almost any time and timing her out is a super legitimate win condition in a very horrible way. If you have any sort of lead you can just abuse it in the normal way: Samus will have to approach and she sucks **** at that. However, even if she ends up having a lead it's still possible to force her to exceed the ledge grab limit because of how her ledge game works. If played correctly, a timeout will always end in your favor which is super dumb.
The ledge game is one thing Glutonny failed horribly at. You don't necessarily get guaranteed hits off ledgeguarding her but it's realistic to force her to remain there. Glut maintained a spacing that would allow Quik to poke his shield with fair safely because he didn't have the space to jump away and bait it out. When he did get hit by it his SDI was off and he failed to steer the situation to his favor, even when he tried he didn't seem aware of his or Samus' options.
Biz_R_0
Smash Ace
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I've educated myself on the D3 MU, although most D3's I play against are usually better than me anyway.Is that so? I don't really beat Dedede players.
waldorf2007
Smash Ace
yo quik that was insanely good samus play. I'm always looking to get better with my samus, up to the point where I can actually fight a mid-high tier with it. In the video, you used fair off of ledge jump and y jump off ledge often, was that a matchup-specific thing or is it moderately safe? It seemed really unsafe whenever you faired on the ledge but the bottom part kept hitting glutonny. is that something you'd support in many matchups?
Iota
Smash Lord
I agree with basically everything LC said. 
quiKsilverItaly
Smash Journeyman
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Agree. I picked Samus for the surprising factor, knowing he wouldn't know the matchup.
Thanks. If you want to fight mid and hightier, i can tell you Samus can beat almost every midtier. high- and top there are only a few charakters Samus could be a clever choice: Snake, Wario, Pikachu, ZSS, Toon Link.
First Glutonny is the first Wario who pushed me all the time back of to the ledge, because of his incredible pressure game. Luckily he couldn't manage my planking game. Fair is good against Wario, because it is a good move if you catch him in shield or in the air. But you are screwed, if you miss and he can punish you with uair under you.
Jumping off the ledge and spamming fair's from there is a matchup-specific thing, you shoudln't overuse it in other matchups. But fair, and zair from the ledge are still the best options from the ledge, use them wisely in other mu's.
xzx: +2
Iota: +2
DtJ Composer: +2
Biz_R_0: +2
quiKsilverItaly: +1
TheReflexWonder: +2
Lord Chair: +2
Iota: +2
I feel that we are done with Samus. Let's move on to Bowser. Pretty much the CG from 0%-180% ***** Bowser. Wario can set up many things that can lead to a CG, most notable bite. Bowser has range and can hit hard, especially from the GR, but that's just it. I've heard that Bowser's jab outranges Wario's grab, so jab is an inportant tool in this MU for Bowser (along with other spacing tools Bowser has, like fair and f-tilt). Bowser is big so doing strings on him should not be an issue. Tires and the bike as a projectile is good I assume, especially offstage. And watch out for Bowser's up-b since it grants him invincibility from frame 1-5. Bowser deserves it, really. That is the only option Bowser has when we are CGing him and even beyond that, Bowser must still hope that we are failing it at some point (which is sad). From a GR Bowser can do many things to us, like up-smash and side-b. Can Bowser do an F-smash/Up-air?
Anyway, this MU is according to me easily Wario's easiest one. Wario has sheer destruction and a broken tool to crush Bowser. Then again, yay for CGs! v_v +3 with CG, +2/+1 without. Poor Bowser.
xzx: +3
Iota: +2
DtJ Composer: +2
Biz_R_0: +2
quiKsilverItaly: +1
TheReflexWonder: +2
Lord Chair: +2
Iota: +2
I feel that we are done with Samus. Let's move on to Bowser. Pretty much the CG from 0%-180% ***** Bowser. Wario can set up many things that can lead to a CG, most notable bite. Bowser has range and can hit hard, especially from the GR, but that's just it. I've heard that Bowser's jab outranges Wario's grab, so jab is an inportant tool in this MU for Bowser (along with other spacing tools Bowser has, like fair and f-tilt). Bowser is big so doing strings on him should not be an issue. Tires and the bike as a projectile is good I assume, especially offstage. And watch out for Bowser's up-b since it grants him invincibility from frame 1-5. Bowser deserves it, really. That is the only option Bowser has when we are CGing him and even beyond that, Bowser must still hope that we are failing it at some point (which is sad). From a GR Bowser can do many things to us, like up-smash and side-b. Can Bowser do an F-smash/Up-air?
Anyway, this MU is according to me easily Wario's easiest one. Wario has sheer destruction and a broken tool to crush Bowser. Then again, yay for CGs! v_v +3 with CG, +2/+1 without. Poor Bowser.
xzx: +3
Biz_R_0
Smash Ace
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Iota
Smash Lord
That set is a bad example of how the MU is played.
+3 because we basically 0-death him with the CG and have follows up into it with bite, Nair, etc.
+3 because we basically 0-death him with the CG and have follows up into it with bite, Nair, etc.
Iota
Smash Lord
It's not that big of a thing when he has no way to get it out of a follow up, has poor grab range, and is too slow to adequately pressure us or make us commit into something that he can grab. In general we have better options for our grab shenanigans compared to him.
Labernash
Smash Lord
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Jab 1 > Grab
F-air > grab
Two things that will be used to grab Wario realistically. Bowser GR's like everyone so not getting grabbed is not easy, since their game is based around grabbing.
If for some reason you don't buffer the CG 100% perfect, that mess is going to get up-b out of.
Believes it or nots, Bowser has the tools to make this MU hards for Wario. If Bowser was just... Better... it would have an easy opening for an even MU. When Wario tries to grab Bowser, he risks getting grabbed. Wario's poking and shenanigans and stuff are the strong point to his side of the MU. If the Bowser turtles like he should, it's a great possibility of Wario losing. But he can get in and take the stock.
Also keep in mind Bowser's infinite is infinitely easier than Wario's infinite.
But, it's a +2 for Wario.
F-air > grab
Two things that will be used to grab Wario realistically. Bowser GR's like everyone so not getting grabbed is not easy, since their game is based around grabbing.
If for some reason you don't buffer the CG 100% perfect, that mess is going to get up-b out of.
Believes it or nots, Bowser has the tools to make this MU hards for Wario. If Bowser was just... Better... it would have an easy opening for an even MU. When Wario tries to grab Bowser, he risks getting grabbed. Wario's poking and shenanigans and stuff are the strong point to his side of the MU. If the Bowser turtles like he should, it's a great possibility of Wario losing. But he can get in and take the stock.
Also keep in mind Bowser's infinite is infinitely easier than Wario's infinite.
But, it's a +2 for Wario.
Well that depends on who you ask. Wario's Dthrow CG is easy because the timing doesn't change/you set the pace. With Bowser, the timing can change based on how much they mash (and it can vary from air to ground) and Bowser also has to be more space conscious with moving forward. I think Wario's is easier to do but it's not a huge difference and with someone skilled with Bowser you shouldn't expect them to mess it up much
I'd have the MU as 65:35 ish in the old system. I could even see it being merely 6:4 for Wario, you have to respect Bowser's range and have MU experience against the character.
I'd have the MU as 65:35 ish in the old system. I could even see it being merely 6:4 for Wario, you have to respect Bowser's range and have MU experience against the character.
B!squick
Smash Master
People are still discussing match-ups? O.o
LOE1
Smash Lord
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Lord Chair
Smash Master
what were you even doing l0l
Biz_R_0
Smash Ace
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Why is it that Bowser players rarely ever lose but Bowser isn't used much and is so goddamn low on the tier list? I know that the lack of experience factors into it, but when there are people like Gimpy and Chillin in Melee who play Bowser constantly, novelty isn't an excuse (and he's supposed to be better in Brawl, so "it's Brawl" isn't a great excuse either).
I'm not sure where you get the idea that Bowser players rarely ever lose. They lose an awful lot.
Biz_R_0
Smash Ace
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Really? I'm talking from experience here, I've seen anywhere from one to two dozen Bowser matches and about two where they've lost. Also that's a group of Brawl and Melee and some of those are doubles. Probably should've specified that.
If you have actual stats on this I'd be happy to look at them.
If you have actual stats on this I'd be happy to look at them.
I dunno. Look at the matchup chart and look how many Bowser players are getting anywhere in tournaments.
Biz_R_0
Smash Ace
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The success and popularity thing hasn't been updated since early August, but apparently not very far (Like 10 guys and not much money). However, I'm willing to bet a lot of those aren't dedicated mains as the full split is less than half the no split amount. The only real way to determine if it's popularity or the character would be to have a record of individual recorded matches.
Also, interesting development in the input lag thread, you might wanna check it out.
Also, interesting development in the input lag thread, you might wanna check it out.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
If Bowser players rarely lost they would place well at tournament that matter.
If you rarely see them lose it may be because people like Vex only end up picking Bowser if they know they're going to win anyway.
If you rarely see them lose it may be because people like Vex only end up picking Bowser if they know they're going to win anyway.
Croi
Smash Lord
Could I please get a link?
Biz_R_0
Smash Ace
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I was referring to Reflex specifically, but here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331376&page=8
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331376&page=8
B!squick
Smash Master
I think the list of options Bowser doesn't have on Wario is shorter than the list of things he does.
https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=1A658F2E4D22E16A!106&cid=1a658f2e4d22e16a&app=Excel
The only characters that are more screwed when grabbed by Bowser are Lucas, Ness, and Jigglypuff, if I recall correctly.
This may be my favorite match-up, by the way. Wario's unlike many of the mid to high tiers who have 1 or 2 REALLY good aspects, but fail in other ways that don't do Bowser much good. Wario's just great in pretty much every way, but nothing that hinders Bowser more than the rest of the cast. Fast attacks? Been there. Early kill moves? Not here. Frame perfect infinite? Who doesn't have that on Bowser?
Still an up hill battle, but just one I find more enjoyable than, say, Peach or Kirby.
https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=1A658F2E4D22E16A!106&cid=1a658f2e4d22e16a&app=Excel
The only characters that are more screwed when grabbed by Bowser are Lucas, Ness, and Jigglypuff, if I recall correctly.
This may be my favorite match-up, by the way. Wario's unlike many of the mid to high tiers who have 1 or 2 REALLY good aspects, but fail in other ways that don't do Bowser much good. Wario's just great in pretty much every way, but nothing that hinders Bowser more than the rest of the cast. Fast attacks? Been there. Early kill moves? Not here. Frame perfect infinite? Who doesn't have that on Bowser?
Still an up hill battle, but just one I find more enjoyable than, say, Peach or Kirby.