Walgreens Mafia - DRAW game - The mod ****ed up pretty bad...=/

[#HBC | Gorf]

I said nobody would get away with advocating the use of Kantrip's ability on Rajam, especially when it is potentially day-ending. You're implying a contradiction here, but I'm not seeing it, so you'll have to point it out to me more clearly.

I'm try'na be fair cuz idk if I'm reading it wrong or WHAT, but I see you trying to use the thesis of "there's NO way that I'd think I would get away with that proposal, or get town points, if I were scum, so I HAVE to be town" which is total garbage if that's the case.

I feel it was really unnatural for Kantrip to claim when he did. I have seen him frustrated several times before, but he takes this game seriously enough not to jeopardize his side when he gets frustrated. I did strongly think he was lying about his role from the beginning - when he said it could be used at Night, and when he waited to act out his supposed gambit, I began to doubt that maybe it could be true, but I was committed at that point and it would have been awkward for me to turn around completely and say that he shouldn't use it. Plus, even though I began to suspect he might not be lying, I was still leaning towards it being a gambit, and even now I'm still skeptical, as I've said.

This is me acknowledging this point and not having any qualms with it.

 

[T-block]

Then, on the other hand, it could just be a safety net to put down the crumb and if it wasn't a gambit by Kantrip, just say nothing and enjoy the Raj blow-up, being scum and all.

I was responding to this, Gorf.

I'm not using it to show I'm town. The only thing I'm concerned about making clear at this point is that I advocated use of Kantrip's ability because I thought he was gambiting.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not being dense - quite on the contrary. Your explanations don't convince me. It looks like you're piecing together whichever excuse the current situation requires.

But at the moment I'm more interested in hearing Ryu's thoughts. He hasn't talked a lot since T became the center of attention.

 

[Rockin]

Day 1​

Rajam (3) - T-block, Asdioh

T-block (3) - Red Ryu, Gorf , July,

July (1) - Kantrip

Jim Morrison - Rajam


Not Voting - Mentosman, AsianAussie, Gheb, Jim Morrison, Sokr

With 12 players, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is in Jan. 27th

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I'm gonna be V/LA tomorrow from 8am - 8pm because I said so. Oh and also gonna be V/LA from Thusday - Monday night cuz I'm gonna be on a cruise.

I expect zero walls and... at the most 6-8 pages during that time interval. Can you do it guys?

 

[mentosman8]

Just stopping in to say I don't think I'm going to be able to get all read up, kinda stressed out today between my Grandpa's surgery earlier(went well) and my dad's tomorrow, so I can't focus on the game very well. Once I'm sure all's well and good tomorrow I should be able to read up at some point in the day, but just wanted to let everyone know why I'm not posting

 

[Sokr]

Alrighty. T-Block's crumb could have just been him creating a back door to use should events turn for the worse for him. Is this giving him too much credit? To little? I dunno the guy. Still hesitant about him.
I really like July's string of posts earlier, they all raised points that I, for the most part, agreed with. Town in my eyes for now.
This has probably already been said, but isn't terrorist a scum role? Maybe even indy? Kantrips flavour doesn't seem at all town to me. And then his whole reaction, seemed very staged. July said it and I think it's a good possibility considering what I know of Kantrips play, but it could all just be a gambit. I'll believe it when I see it.
Rajam's striking me as off, but I'll wait for more from him to create a read.
Gheb seems a bit withdrawn from the game. He did the same in the Newbie game I was in with him but I'm not sure if that's accurate meta. I also don't like his suggestions that Kantrip should wait to use his ability. Kantrip being a killing role is a target for scum or scum meddling.
Everyone else I don't really have anything on, or if I do, I've forgotten it. I'll re read at some point.

 

[Kantrip]

Wow okay. Yes, I realize that using the ability this early is a terrible idea. I actually side with the mentality of not using it at all in the absence of condemning evidence. I thought Kantrip was setting up for a gambit and I wanted to help him do so, and I'm still skeptical of his claim, to be honest. I would straight up not believe it if it weren't for his saying it can be used at Night, which would weaken the believability of it being used during the Day. If it's real, then fine - my true stance on the matter lies here. If it's fake, then I apologize if this ruins anything you were trying to do.

So you are inclined to believe it is a gambit over an actual claim?

This is fine, but I have one thing to ask, then, since you even addressed it yourself: If you thought that what you're doing had the potential to ruin what you think is a gambit, why did you do it?

Don't answer, that's rhetorical. I know why you did it: To defend yourself.

You see, this post came along when you started getting scrutiny for your stance and opinion on my ability. You claim that you answered how you did because you thought it was a gambit and you were helping. This is bull**** because if that were the case you would still answer truthfully about what you would have done about the ability. You are backpedaling out of your terrible suggestions by saying "I was just playing along."

The fact that you pointed this out now proves that you think defending yourself for your actions is important, even at the cost of "ruining what [I'm] trying to do". This shows that your play is more centered on defending yourself than potentially finding scum. This in addition to your backpedaling is bad, bad news.

FoS: T-block

I would vote but there's a lot of those already on you.

This sort of emotion looked somewhat over-the-top and staged, which along with the leading question, made me think he was setting up for a dayvig-type gambit.

I breadcrumbed JOKER in my first post addressing the role to show my true intentions.

I see why you thought that, but I can assure you my frustration about my play is legitimate.

I must ask you, though, why did you crumb that? Why would you crumb "JOKER"? What "true intentions" were you trying to show, and why did you feel the need to crumb them? I'm sorry but this kind of foreplanning is very scummy. I see no reason for town to be crumbing things in advance just so they can help out with someone else's gambit. You're just being meticulous at this point.

 

[Kantrip]

Those damn breadcrumbs that I never notice on my own make me believe TB even more.

Why is breadcrumbing meticulously a town tell?

Which makes me wonder why I'm fundamentally disagreeing with Gheb and, apparently, Guus Jim Morrison.

Gheb, I want you to show me why you think TB is scum now that he's explained the gambit stuff. It seems to me that he thought it was like a variation of a Dayvig gambit (which are almost always faked) and wanted to go along with it. I don't get what there is to not understand?

The only problem I see with it is that Rajam didn't have time to react to it, which is Rajam's own fault for being inactive I guess.

Yeah I don't like how T-block put defending himself over this. He was trying to justify his actions without any scumhunting happening, and I don't see where your town tells are coming from. Everything that you are calling a town tell looks like a scum tell to me, and I know I'm not alone in this sentiment.

 

[Kantrip]

To be honest, I've had issues with Kantrip's play and I'm still having trouble with his role being a terrorist who had second thoughts but is still suiciding. I'm willing to give his role credence, but his claim hasn't made his play completely okay and made him obvtown imo. And I don't want this game to become focused on his claim, I want to scumhunt first and focus on that right now. Kantrip is someone I'm still suspicious of, but less so than Rajam and T-Block. T-Block's most recent posts do not look like the composed, analytic town T-Block I've played with before, and Rajam has done nothing to stimulate conversation or provide content.

Yes. Take into account the fact that my role should be a null tell, even if it is exactly how I say it is. There is nothing stopping a role such as mine to be a scum role, so it should not affect reads on me.

Don't get too sold on Rajam yet. Being an inactive doesn't make him scum right away. I'd like something more conclusive before I actually believe Rajam is scum.

Vote: T-Block

Your entire play has changed ever since Gheb questioned you, and your reaction to Kantrip's claim was straightforward, but not in a good way and encouraged something that could have been harmful for town.

@T-Block: What are your reads on Sokr and Asdioh?

Agree with this.

 

[Kantrip]

I said nobody would get away with advocating the use of Kantrip's ability on Rajam, especially when it is potentially day-ending. You're implying a contradiction here, but I'm not seeing it, so you'll have to point it out to me more clearly.

What is the difference between a Rajam lynch and bombing Rajam?

They both end the Day if he's town. Lynch ends the Day if he's scum, bombing doesn't. But bombing does take a townie (me) as well.

Something about your behaviour is just really scummy during this, T-block.

 

[Sokr]

If we're gonna lynch somebody, there's no point for Kantrip to use his ability. The only time he would use it now is if he desperately believes he needs to kill someone that isn't being lynched, or if we can't reach a majority vote.

 

[asianaussie]

So you are inclined to believe it is a gambit over an actual claim?

This is fine, but I have one thing to ask, then, since you even addressed it yourself: If you thought that what you're doing had the potential to ruin what you think is a gambit, why did you do it?

Don't answer, that's rhetorical. I know why you did it: To defend yourself.

I agree with this. I see how it doesn't matter quite as much (since Rajam is not responding), but even so, it feels like you're jumping ship pretty quickly.

I think town bomber is a bit of a shaky role, but it's certainly more credible than indy bomber. And mafia...well. Let's just say I think Kantrip is town for now.

Those damn breadcrumbs that I never notice on my own make me believe TB even more.

I don't think the breadcrumb here says that much about his alignment or intentions.

 

[asianaussie]

Amendment to the above, I'm going off the assumption indy factions have 'survival' as their main win-req, not sure about alternate ones.

If we're gonna lynch somebody, there's no point for Kantrip to use his ability. The only time he would use it now is if he desperately believes he needs to kill someone that isn't being lynched, or if we can't reach a majority vote.

Assuming his claim is credible, why do you think scum Kantrip would claim when he did and offer Rajam, who would have been brought up as a target anyway, as a target?

Bomber is traditionally 'anti-town', but not always, since the trade-off for a town bomber who picks a good target is favourable.

 

[Kantrip]

asianaussie, what do you think about Asdioh calling T-block's actions townie?

Do you think he's just really off base? Or something else?

 

[asianaussie]

...maybe he just likes crumbs? I'm not sold on T-Block scum myself, so I understand what he says.

RR needs to speak up.

 

[T-block]

Alrighty. T-Block's crumb could have just been him creating a back door to use should events turn for the worse for him. Is this giving him too much credit? To little? I dunno the guy. Still hesitant about him.
I really like July's string of posts earlier, they all raised points that I, for the most part, agreed with. Town in my eyes for now.
This has probably already been said, but isn't terrorist a scum role? Maybe even indy? Kantrips flavour doesn't seem at all town to me. And then his whole reaction, seemed very staged. July said it and I think it's a good possibility considering what I know of Kantrips play, but it could all just be a gambit. I'll believe it when I see it.
Rajam's striking me as off, but I'll wait for more from him to create a read.
Gheb seems a bit withdrawn from the game. He did the same in the Newbie game I was in with him but I'm not sure if that's accurate meta. I also don't like his suggestions that Kantrip should wait to use his ability. Kantrip being a killing role is a target for scum or scum meddling.
Everyone else I don't really have anything on, or if I do, I've forgotten it. I'll re read at some point.

Why are you still playing so carefully? Your post is super passive.

Comment on the players on my wagon. Of them, who has justified their spot on it? Do Kantrip's most recent posts affirm or assuage your suspicions of him?

 

[T-block]

So you are inclined to believe it is a gambit over an actual claim?

This is fine, but I have one thing to ask, then, since you even addressed it yourself: If you thought that what you're doing had the potential to ruin what you think is a gambit, why did you do it?

Don't answer, that's rhetorical. I know why you did it: To defend yourself.

You see, this post came along when you started getting scrutiny for your stance and opinion on my ability. You claim that you answered how you did because you thought it was a gambit and you were helping. This is bull**** because if that were the case you would still answer truthfully about what you would have done about the ability. You are backpedaling out of your terrible suggestions by saying "I was just playing along."

The fact that you pointed this out now proves that you think defending yourself for your actions is important, even at the cost of "ruining what [I'm] trying to do". This shows that your play is more centered on defending yourself than potentially finding scum. This in addition to your backpedaling is bad, bad news.

FoS: T-block

I would vote but there's a lot of those already on you.

Yep, I'm putting defending myself as more important than preserving what little integrity such a gambit would have at this point. Having been put close to a lynch, I judged that this was the best action for town.

My play is naturally going to centre around defending myself with how much attention is on me. Even so, I am still looking at other players, so your accusation isn't even accurate.

I see why you thought that, but I can assure you my frustration about my play is legitimate.

I must ask you, though, why did you crumb that? Why would you crumb "JOKER"? What "true intentions" were you trying to show, and why did you feel the need to crumb them? I'm sorry but this kind of foreplanning is very scummy. I see no reason for town to be crumbing things in advance just so they can help out with someone else's gambit. You're just being meticulous at this point.

The crumb is meant to show that I wasn't serious about wanting you to use your ability.

Why wouldn't I crumb it, and how is that scummy? Crumbing before a gambit is something I've always done, in case people later on think it was scummy, which is exactly what is happening now. I did it in Hentai before I fakeclaimed Tracker. I could reference an ongoing game as well. You even did it yourself in one of the DR games, Kantrip. What are you trying to get at?

 

[T-block]

What is the difference between a Rajam lynch and bombing Rajam?

They both end the Day if he's town. Lynch ends the Day if he's scum, bombing doesn't. But bombing does take a townie (me) as well.

Something about your behaviour is just really scummy during this, T-block.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

 

[asianaussie]

T-block, clarify something for me. You believed that Kantrip was throwing out some sort of gambit. Are you saying that his real role isn't Terrorist, or are you saying he is a Terrorist and just wants a response out of Rajam?

 

[T-block]

I thought (and sorta still think) he is not actually Terrorist.

 

[asianaussie]

But you don't believe he's scum, correct?

Do you have a scumpick? Are you pursuing Sokr because you want him to talk, or is there something about his passive play that makes you suspicious?

 

[T-block]

No, I don't think he's scum. I can't label him as town either though.

My thoughts on Sokr here still stand:

I don't really like the Sokr slot at the moment. He looked fine when answering Kantrip's questions, but it's not hard to look fine when Kantrip was being as silly as he was. I want to label him as scummy in a newb-scum way, which matches the fact that he supposedly has not played as scum before. I am noting the agreeing with RR's "argument" early, followed by the retracting of the statement when confronted, unable to provide justification. There's the refusal to appease Kantrip's request to break down July's post which happens to follow Gorf's ridicule of the request. His vote and unvote of Kantrip, as well as his labelling both me and RR as town, while not conclusively incriminating in themselves, fit the careful newb-scum profile. If someone who has played with him before can give me an evaluation of his skill that would be awesome.

I think he is playing very much like newb-scum at the moment.

My vote is still on Rajam though, until he answers my question.

 

[Sokr]

I think town bomber is a bit of a shaky role, but it's certainly more credible than indy bomber. And mafia...well. Let's just say I think Kantrip is town for now.

Why?

Assuming his claim is credible, why do you think scum Kantrip would claim when he did and offer Rajam, who would have been brought up as a target anyway, as a target?

Townie Points? Claiming this is basically getting him out of the pressure that was on him and saying "Hey! I can be useful to town!"

Why are you still playing so carefully? Your post is super passive.

I tend to be unable to really explain my reads on others which is something I have to learn to be able to do. My apologies.

Comment on the players on my wagon. Of them, who has justified their spot on it? Do Kantrip's most recent posts affirm or assuage your suspicions of him?

Red Ryu: This is tough. If he were actually a miller then he would be totally justified in voting you for opposite reasons. However, I'm not so sure he's being serious. I'm still trying to justify his actions from a scum in my mind. He seemed a bit to eager to prove that you're scum. However, he is more involved in this game than the last game I played, like I said earlier.

Gorf: I need to read back on his posts to get a better read and try and see his thoughts.

July: Totally. I loved her points (it's a her right? I'm not thinking of someone else?). She's probably the most town person in this game for me.

 

[Kantrip]

Claiming this should not have gotten me any townie points for being "potentially useful to town". The role itself can be scum or town, and that's assuming you believe it, Sokr.

Analyze play farther back than that. "YOU MUST GO DEEPER! Bwoooonnnnnnnngggggg!"

 

[asianaussie]

Why?

Why what?

Townie Points? Claiming this is basically getting him out of the pressure that was on him and saying "Hey! I can be useful to town!"

Regarding the claim and Rajam pick...that claim doesn't really say much, especially since the role is generally not a town one. The only reason I can think of for scum to aim at Rajam of all people is to seem less suspicious, as opposed to picking someone not particularly involved in the game like myself.

Getting rid of Rajam like that isn't necessarily good for scum, as he would probably get lynched without needing to waste a bombing.

 

[Sokr]

AA, why do you think Kantrip is town?

Kantrip, I don't believe it. It seems very likely of you to pull of a gambit.

 

[asianaussie]

Because I think that frustration he showed was genuine, and basically mirrored what I've done twice as irritated town. I also happened to post a lot without thinking too hard in those two games.

Describe the gambit you think he tried to pull, Sokr. I'm not sure we're on the same page here.

 

[Kantrip]

Alright Sokr.

From your perspective, then, describe to me why I did the gambit and what I hoped to gain from it. Do you think it was a townie thing to do, or a scummy thing to do?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Reading atm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Erm actually wait til after the blackout, I'm gonna need some time to quote all the stuff I am and this time being awake.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I also don't like his suggestions that Kantrip should wait to use his ability. Kantrip being a killing role is a target for scum or scum meddling.

And the problem with that is ... what exactly? "Scum meddling" is inevitable in a mafia game and assumed PRs being likely targets isn't anything new either.

My idea was to not have Kantrip use his ability at all. Remember what mentos says: if Kantrip is town using his ability on a townie we lose 2 townies at once, add a mafia kill to that and we're at -3 townies going into D2, which is one townie death away from mylo - and we haven't included the possibility of a mislynch or SK in that equation. Seems better to me to only use his ability once we know more about the set-up or have a scumbag killed already. Any discussion about using his power right now is premature and potentially harmful / misleading.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I think Kantrip's role does give him some town credibility.
Why would scum even claim this role, they might eventually be "forced" to bomb someone by the other players. Scum doesn't want to die. Now he doesn't bomb anyone and all attention falls onto him.
Seems like the most stupid thing for scum to do, at least to me, it's just putting yourself in a worse position.


He's definitely not clear though.

Now I desperately want to see Red Ryu's thoughts on EVERYTHING because he is on a shared #1 in lynch targets with T-block!

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Read up on TBlock's opinion of Sokr newb scum and I like it. Sorta.

Let the record show that I'm a pro TBlock-Rajam-maybeSokr lynch at this point and that, unless there's a spur of activity within the next couple of hours I'm OUT.

 

[Sokr]

Alright Sokr.

From your perspective, then, describe to me why I did the gambit and what I hoped to gain from it. Do you think it was a townie thing to do, or a scummy thing to do?

It could be either scummy or town, depending on the intent. The way you came out with suggesting to bomb Rajam, who was already a lynch pick, you could have been watching for who jumped behind you on that idea. You could also be hoping to get which people are more desperate to not die and somehow get something out of that (power roles maybe, as scum)

And the problem with that is ... what exactly? "Scum meddling" is inevitable in a mafia game and assumed PRs being likely targets isn't anything new either.

My idea was to not have Kantrip use his ability at all. Remember what mentos says: if Kantrip is town using his ability on a townie we lose 2 townies at once, add a mafia kill to that and we're at -3 townies going into D2, which is one townie death away from mylo - and we haven't included the possibility of a mislynch or SK in that equation. Seems better to me to only use his ability once we know more about the set-up or have a scumbag killed already. Any discussion about using his power right now is premature and potentially harmful / misleading.

Ok, I misunderstood. I completely agree with you that he shouldn't use his ability.

 

[Kantrip]

It could be either scummy or town, depending on the intent. The way you came out with suggesting to bomb Rajam, who was already a lynch pick, you could have been watching for who jumped behind you on that idea. You could also be hoping to get which people are more desperate to not die and somehow get something out of that (power roles maybe, as scum)

Pick one.

I wanted you to take a stance on the matter, not tell me the options.

 

[July]

No, you already ruined that mostly because of you claiming miller and Red Ryu claiming miller. I am right out assuming one of you is scum, so we couldn't find the scum between the two of you, investigating you is useless already.

So we'd have to look at other players to investigate, while in the meantime, the issue between you two is still sitting unresolved. I'd be really happy with a policy/inactive lynch, but I just cannot let the miller issue sit.

T-block is at L-2 now, if I'm correct.

One of you should go, and my decision is based around play Today, in which RR has bested you.
Something about saying we should wait to use it on a guilty sits very wrong with me.

Agreeing with Gheb's last post on AsianAussie.

I pretty much agree with your first paragraph/point that the miller issue is an important one and something we don’t want to leave unresolved for too long. I also agree that based on toDay’s play T-Block has been scummy, but do you really think RR has “bested” T-Block?

T-Block has been actively digging himself into a hole, but RR has avoided the conversation altogether. If RR really is the miller then he needs to become a more active force in this game and shouldn’t just be riding his claim out the rest of the Day. Even though T-Block has been scummy, RR is not off the hook toDay and needs to contribute or get thrown into the lynch pool.

 

[July]

I don't really like the Sokr slot at the moment. He looked fine when answering Kantrip's questions, but it's not hard to look fine when Kantrip was being as silly as he was. I want to label him as scummy in a newb-scum way, which matches the fact that he supposedly has not played as scum before. I am noting the agreeing with RR's "argument" early, followed by the retracting of the statement when confronted, unable to provide justification. There's the refusal to appease Kantrip's request to break down July's post which happens to follow Gorf's ridicule of the request. His vote and unvote of Kantrip, as well as his labelling both me and RR as town, while not conclusively incriminating in themselves, fit the careful newb-scum profile. If someone who has played with him before can give me an evaluation of his skill that would be awesome.

Thoughts on Asdioh once I get back from my trip to the bookstore.

I've played with Sokr before in Britches and Hose, and I had very similar issues with him not really providing justification and not taking hard stances, which I actually think he's done better here. Having only played one game with him I don't have much meta to go off of so I don't know if that helps much, I remember Ryker and Swiss saying he had a lot of potential, but right now he's leaning town with me. You do point out he agrees with RR's argument without justification and carefully labels both of you as town which I feel really slid under the radar, so he's someone I'd like to keep my eye on and not take his similarities to his Britches and Hose play for granted.

No problems with Asdioh... he's been pretty open with his thoughts as far as I can see, and there's certainly nothing that sticks out as scummy from him. If it's his reasons for labelling me as town that you want me to address (town wouldn't want to off someone so vocally, etc.), I think they are a little out from left field, but it's not anything I haven't seen from town Asdioh before.

Yes I was mainly interested in what you thought of his reasons for labeling you as town, so thank you.

 

[July]

So you are inclined to believe it is a gambit over an actual claim?

This is fine, but I have one thing to ask, then, since you even addressed it yourself: If you thought that what you're doing had the potential to ruin what you think is a gambit, why did you do it?

Don't answer, that's rhetorical. I know why you did it: To defend yourself.

You see, this post came along when you started getting scrutiny for your stance and opinion on my ability. You claim that you answered how you did because you thought it was a gambit and you were helping. This is bull**** because if that were the case you would still answer truthfully about what you would have done about the ability. You are backpedaling out of your terrible suggestions by saying "I was just playing along."

The fact that you pointed this out now proves that you think defending yourself for your actions is important, even at the cost of "ruining what [I'm] trying to do". This shows that your play is more centered on defending yourself than potentially finding scum. This in addition to your backpedaling is bad, bad news.

FoS: T-block

I would vote but there's a lot of those already on you.





I see why you thought that, but I can assure you my frustration about my play is legitimate.

I must ask you, though, why did you crumb that? Why would you crumb "JOKER"? What "true intentions" were you trying to show, and why did you feel the need to crumb them? I'm sorry but this kind of foreplanning is very scummy. I see no reason for town to be crumbing things in advance just so they can help out with someone else's gambit. You're just being meticulous at this point.

This is more the Kantrip I expect and I like that you are digging into T-Block’s responses and trying to understand his intentions by looking into his actions. While I don’t particularly agree that his crumb is scummy because its foreplanning (he could foreplan as town too) I do see that his crumb could easily have scum intent rather than town intent. And ultimately the issue that I have with T-Block at the moment is digging into what his real intentions have been behind claiming miller, in his response to the gambit, and in responding to Gheb’s pressure. He keeps digging holes for himself and then attempting to explain them away in ways that kinda work, but his actual intent might be to just cover up his scummy behavior with nice, pro-town excuses.

 

[July]

Yes. Take into account the fact that my role should be a null tell, even if it is exactly how I say it is. There is nothing stopping a role such as mine to be a scum role, so it should not affect reads on me.

Don't get too sold on Rajam yet. Being an inactive doesn't make him scum right away. I'd like something more conclusive before I actually believe Rajam is scum.



Agree with this.

I'm not sold on Rajam scum, I'm just annoyed with Rajam and RR uselessness and want to see them get involved in what's going on now. Especially since there is a lot going on, including the miller issue which RR himself is a part of, so contributing to the conversation isn't too much to ask from them.