Walgreens Mafia - DRAW game - The mod ****ed up pretty bad...=/

[T-block]

Ughhhh okay this is getting too distracting.

I'm not miller.

I do have a reason for claiming it, but I didn't expect there to be an actual miller in this game.

ITT: T-block tries to do too much and everything falls on his head

I really apologize for botching this game up so bad T.T

 

[Kantrip]

Whew I decided to refresh the page before posting something. Good thing too, because that would have ninja'd me hardcore.

I was going to say how I was almost certain he wasn't a miller, but that he had a reason for claiming it.

I still think it's a scummy reason. There is one explanation I will accept as townie, but I will wait until T-block wants to say what his reasoning was.

Can you tell us what made you believe there was no miller? Did you just guess there was no miller and claim hoping you were right?

@Red Ryu: Does your claim still stand?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

How to gambit well:

-Don't immediately gambit roles that have possibilities of being in games, good examples of those that aren't likely is town princess. It's usually a safe bet that there ISN'T one in the setup unless your mod's a douche, and when you claim something like miller chances are it balances.
-If you're scum (still convinced you are), don't gambit a role that is designed to result in a guilty upon investigation. That's so silly.
-Crumbing, although not necessarily something that clears one, is a good way to prove the fact that it's a gambit.

This really looks , to me at least, like you're last ditching and backpedaling... It's the feel.

 

[July]

Adding on to what Kantrip said, I want to know why you claimed miller in the first place and why, WHY you waited so long to revoke your claim?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Hey... Ain't it FISHY how he tried honestly riding out the claim... with ZERO hinting of said claim being faked... And chooses NOW to reveal? I mean yea we're all thinking it but let's not just avoid what's obviously on e'ryone's mind amirite Asdioh?

 

[Kantrip]

Not only that, but I could have sworn he wanted to use it for something useful like... oh I don't know, getting us out of RVS or scumhunting or something?

But then no questions.
But then no follow-up.
But then claims he didn't expect there to actually be a miller.
But then waits forever just to retract his claim without doing anything with it.

This removes a lot of town intents from the list of possibilities. There is about one left that I can reckon, let's see if T-block says it as his reasoning.

 

[Asdioh]

And now I feel like a fool for believing T-block so completely. >:|

Gorf I'm not sure what you're getting at. I don't think they sell fish at Walgreens?
Unless you're saying he's scum, which I'm now finally starting to consider. I had him as my only townread pretty much immediately into the game, I already stated why back then. Now though, I don't even know what he's doing anymore.

 

[Kantrip]

Asdioh, what did you THINK he was doing? What does T-block retracting his claim change for you? This is important to me.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

And now I feel like a fool for believing T-block so completely. >:|

Gorf I'm not sure what you're getting at. I don't think they sell fish at Walgreens?
Unless you're saying he's scum, which I'm now finally starting to consider. I had him as my only townread pretty much immediately into the game, I already stated why back then. Now though, I don't even know what he's doing anymore.

WOAH. Dude I swear you're like some kind of genius or something.

 

[T-block]

yeah i don't know what i'm doing either

i rode it out because the claim would still have fulfilled its purpose

i did it to dodge the NK

 

[July]

yeah i don't know what i'm doing either

i rode it out because the claim would still have fulfilled its purpose

i did it to dodge the NK

I think I understand, whether or not I believe that was your intention is a different story. Kantrip, is that the reason you were thinking of?

 

[Kantrip]

Claiming "there is more to my ability" when I asked you why you were claiming a vanilla miller implied you were either a Power Role or implying that you were a Power Role. This is a direct contradiction to "dodging the NK".

 

[Kantrip]

My grammar is atrocious in that sentence.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

i rode it out because the claim would still have fulfilled its purpose

Yea I mean if the purpose was to throw town into a WIFOM conundum (I hope I'm spelling that right :x) then bravo but I don't see it doing anything else for you or town really.

i did it to dodge the NK

RE. TAR. DED. I'm sure you are capable of dodging an NK mang.

Actually Kantrip PRs would look to dodge NK's either way but he claimed miller status because you were calling him fullclaiming scummy (which it's not...) so to dodge the fullclaim aspect he went with miller status which is actually cool beans.

 

[T-block]

i never claimed to have more. i just didn't deny it. wifom etc etc - i know you can appreciate that

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Well yea that's what I meant but more concise ^

 

[T-block]

RE. TAR. DED. I'm sure you are capable of dodging an NK mang.

and this was my way of doing it

it would have been fine if there weren't an actual miller in the game

dumb assumption for me to make now, i realize - hadn't played in a game with a miller in a pretty long time

 

[Kantrip]

So giving scum WIFOM is better than throwing them off course?

I don't follow you. If you wanted to dodge the NK, then why would you claim miller? How does this accomplish this?

 

[Asdioh]

Asdioh, what did you THINK he was doing? What does T-block retracting his claim change for you? This is important to me.

What he's doing right now, you mean?

I honestly am trying to figure that out. I don't want to speculate too hard out in the open, where scum can see it.
I believed he was a miller at the beginning though, and I made it abundantly clear that I trusted his claim over RR's. TB just put himself out in the open from the start, where no scum would want to be. RR also put himself out there, but I thought he was trying to pull some clever gambit or something. The only part that gave me pause was that he claimed flavor along with it, that sounded very legit. I was getting frustrated by RR being mostly absent after that, though, which is why I was thinking he was scummier than TB.

I originally was thinking the lynch should be between one of the two at the end of the Day, because there's almost no way we'd have two Millers (thinking back to B&H mafia) but I was hoping we would get something else done before then. I'm pretty sure I said this already in one of my posts.

With T-block retracting his claim, though, I'm starting to question my reads on the two players.

WOAH. Dude I swear you're like some kind of genius or something.

also since T-block ninja'd me, yes, when I saw him retract his claim, the only town motivation I could see was trying to avoid being nightkilled. What this implies is obvious.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Aight I'm out for real this time. Remember guys no walls and don't overkill the thread with pagecount while I'm gone PLEASE. TBlock if you're town be more towny, cmon mang. And with that I say too-da-loo.

 

[Kantrip]

I think the way you attain reads in many cases is shallow, Asdioh. Red Ryu being absent does NOT give his claim less credibility. You noticed in Awkward Moments that activity does not equate to towniness. The fact that T-block has been here defending his claim does not make him more town than Red Ryu who hasn't defended his.

Claiming flavor also does not add credibility. Please don't think this in the future.

Red Ryu's claim was always more legit, imo

 

[T-block]

rajam needs to answer this. still think he can die

Hahaha if you think you were helpful to town in SMRPG you severely need to be disillusioned.

How would disconnecting from you gain me town points? What is your "point" that supposedly stands?

sticking with my newbscum sokr read, although i've never played with him before. someone should verify july's meta on him. potentially of note is how he avoided the rajam push altogether, only giving a weak mention of him in 247.

don't give july a town pass too quickly. she is more than capable of playing like this as scum. haven't seen anything suggesting either alignment for her.

still don't believe kantrip's role, but that's not important. his reasoning for jumping on my wagon was terrible (calling the crumbing scummy, trying to incriminate me for playing being focused on defending myself, etc). coming from kantrip i'm not sure whether it's scummy or just dumb play though. i do think he is caught up and excited to be able to push me, given our history (he'll deny it of course), which would probably tend to push his actions towards what he was doing, even as town. if you get a guilty later, absolutely push kantrip to use his ability - i would not feel comfortable with him in late game.

rr town for miller cc.

mentos, aa, guus leaning townie. aa > guus > mentos for order. need to see more from all of them though. more action from guus.

asdioh is fine. as i said, some of his reasoning looks a little wack (even his reasoning for town read on me looks silly at times), but i've seen it before from him, so null on that. other than that, nothing alarming from him.

gorf's initial reasoning for suspecting me was absolutely terrible, but he's been good lately, okay with gorf as well.

i've gotten a somewhat opportunistic feel from gheb but that might just be because of time zones and the times he posts. null on him.

 

[T-block]

I originally was thinking the lynch should be between one of the two at the end of the Day, because there's almost no way we'd have two Millers (thinking back to B&H mafia) but I was hoping we would get something else done before then. I'm pretty sure I said this already in one of my posts.

and this is why i chose to come clean. with multiple people expressing this thought, the whole situation was becoming too distracting to be worth it

 

[Asdioh]

I think the way you attain reads in many cases is shallow, Asdioh. Red Ryu being absent does NOT give his claim less credibility. You noticed in Awkward Moments that activity does not equate to towniness. The fact that T-block has been here defending his claim does not make him more town than Red Ryu who hasn't defended his.

Claiming flavor also does not add credibility. Please don't think this in the future.

Red Ryu's claim was always more legit, imo

Ok, O Mighty Kantrip, what made RR's claim more legit? It's easy to argue a WIFOM circle about the two claims, and we obviously came to different conclusions, so I want to see your reasoning. Here were my thoughts on them-


Town Things that could be detected from T-block's claim:
-claiming Miller ASAP, and suggesting something as unpopular (some would say dumb) as No Lynch, essentially killing or shortening RVS, and making T-block the center of attention from the very start. "Why would scum immediately risk a miller counterclaim, while putting so much attention on themselves?" some might say.

Town Things that could be detected from Red Ruy's claim:
-counterclaiming Miller also puts attention on Red Ruy. "Why would scum counterclaim that? It practically guarantees their rapidly approaching death!" some might say.

 

[Kantrip]

rajam needs to answer this. still think he can die



sticking with my newbscum sokr read, although i've never played with him before. someone should verify july's meta on him. potentially of note is how he avoided the rajam push altogether, only giving a weak mention of him in 247.

don't give july a town pass too quickly. she is more than capable of playing like this as scum. haven't seen anything suggesting either alignment for her.

still don't believe kantrip's role, but that's not important. his reasoning for jumping on my wagon was terrible (calling the crumbing scummy, trying to incriminate me for playing being focused on defending myself, etc). coming from kantrip i'm not sure whether it's scummy or just dumb play though. i do think he is caught up and excited to be able to push me, given our history (he'll deny it of course), which would probably tend to push his actions towards what he was doing, even as town. if you get a guilty later, absolutely push kantrip to use his ability - i would not feel comfortable with him in late game.

rr town for miller cc.

mentos, aa, guus leaning townie. aa > guus > mentos for order. need to see more from all of them though. more action from guus.

asdioh is fine. as i said, some of his reasoning looks a little wack (even his reasoning for town read on me looks silly at times), but i've seen it before from him, so null on that. other than that, nothing alarming from him.

gorf's initial reasoning for suspecting me was absolutely terrible, but he's been good lately, okay with gorf as well.

i've gotten a somewhat opportunistic feel from gheb but that might just be because of time zones and the times he posts. null on him.

What even is this? Everyone who called you scummy did not have terrible reasoning. The reasoning was sound and you HAVE been playing scummy. Having your play centralize around things not called scumhunting IS scummy. Your claim IS scummy. Your backpedaling out of everything is pretty clear to me, and yes I AM denying that I'm pushing you due to past history. What are you even referring to? Housepets? I'm not salty bro.

I will confirm July's meta and also to note is that I have seen the only instance of Sokr's scum meta. It's not a very good source though because we were playing on facebook with a group of pure newbies and Sokr was the most experienced player out of the lot. In that game he was blatantly sitting on his thumbs weakly pulling town in multiple directions.

His smashboards play has been the fence-sitty type of play. It's very hard to get him to take hard stances, and I think I would equate that to fear.

 

[July]

rajam needs to answer this. still think he can die



sticking with my newbscum sokr read, although i've never played with him before. someone should verify july's meta on him. potentially of note is how he avoided the rajam push altogether, only giving a weak mention of him in 247.

don't give july a town pass too quickly. she is more than capable of playing like this as scum. haven't seen anything suggesting either alignment for her.

still don't believe kantrip's role, but that's not important. his reasoning for jumping on my wagon was terrible (calling the crumbing scummy, trying to incriminate me for playing being focused on defending myself, etc). coming from kantrip i'm not sure whether it's scummy or just dumb play though. i do think he is caught up and excited to be able to push me, given our history (he'll deny it of course), which would probably tend to push his actions towards what he was doing, even as town. if you get a guilty later, absolutely push kantrip to use his ability - i would not feel comfortable with him in late game.

rr town for miller cc.

mentos, aa, guus leaning townie. aa > guus > mentos for order. need to see more from all of them though. more action from guus.

asdioh is fine. as i said, some of his reasoning looks a little wack (even his reasoning for town read on me looks silly at times), but i've seen it before from him, so null on that. other than that, nothing alarming from him.

gorf's initial reasoning for suspecting me was absolutely terrible, but he's been good lately, okay with gorf as well.

i've gotten a somewhat opportunistic feel from gheb but that might just be because of time zones and the times he posts. null on him.

T-Block, can you explain those bolded reads more? In particular, you seem to have aa as more townie than guus (Jim Morrison?) and guus more townie than mentos. Why is aa the towniest of all of them?

 

[Kantrip]

Ok, O Mighty Kantrip, what made RR's claim more legit? It's easy to argue a WIFOM circle about the two claims, and we obviously came to different conclusions, so I want to see your reasoning. Here were my thoughts on them-

Cut that. I called something out on being bad, I don't need you getting snarky about it.

Town Things that could be detected from T-block's claim:
-claiming Miller ASAP, and suggesting something as unpopular (some would say dumb) as No Lynch, essentially killing or shortening RVS, and making T-block the center of attention from the very start. "Why would scum immediately risk a miller counterclaim, while putting so much attention on themselves?" some might say.

This hinges 100% on WIFOM of "why would scum do this", and fails to touch on WHY A TOWNIE would do it. Why would someone trying to dodge a NK risk a CC and put so much attention on themselves?

You CAN NOT say a claim is legit just because it would be dumb to be faking it.

Town Things that could be detected from Red Ruy's claim:
-counterclaiming Miller also puts attention on Red Ruy. "Why would scum counterclaim that? It practically guarantees their rapidly approaching death!" some might say.

Seriously. Both of these are not even conclusive at all. They are 100% WIFOM. "Why would scum do this" IS NOT A TOWN TELL.

What you SHOULD be analyzing is what they GAIN from doing this as either alignment. If you don't see town GAINING anything, than it is a scummy action.

 

[Asdioh]

You CAN NOT say a claim is legit just because it would be dumb to be faking it.

But does it tell alignment? Even though T-block's shown that his Miller claim was false, does it mean he's not town? His claim wasn't legit, but still, I think it would be dumb for scum to do what he did.

I can see what you're saying, but I'm still having second thoughts.

In fact, when I think about it in terms of gaining, I can see both Town-Block and Town Ruy gaining something from what they did, from their POV.

 

[Kantrip]

But does it tell alignment? Even though T-block's shown that his Miller claim was false, does it mean he's not town? His claim wasn't legit, but still, I think it would be dumb for scum to do what he did.

I can see what you're saying, but I'm still having second thoughts.

In fact, when I think about it in terms of gaining, I can see both Town-Block and Town Ruy gaining something from what they did, from their POV.

No it doesn't mean he's not town. That lies in how he accidentally eliminated all the town intent from his back-door options.

I also see scum-block gaining from what he did, but I don't see scum Ryu gaining.

He has yet to answer the simple question: HOW does claiming MILLER dodge a NK?

 

[T-block]

What even is this? Everyone who called you scummy did not have terrible reasoning. The reasoning was sound and you HAVE been playing scummy. Having your play centralize around things not called scumhunting IS scummy. Your claim IS scummy. Your backpedaling out of everything is pretty clear to me, and yes I AM denying that I'm pushing you due to past history. What are you even referring to? Housepets? I'm not salty bro.

I will confirm July's meta and also to note is that I have seen the only instance of Sokr's scum meta. It's not a very good source though because we were playing on facebook with a group of pure newbies and Sokr was the most experienced player out of the lot. In that game he was blatantly sitting on his thumbs weakly pulling town in multiple directions.

His smashboards play has been the fence-sitty type of play. It's very hard to get him to take hard stances, and I think I would equate that to fear.

kay i NEVER said everyone who called me scummy has bad reasoning. gorf's "he feels too casual" was dumb - he is fine otherwise. relax a bit.

it's not so much salt. you're just excited to be on the wagon of a player you perceive to be strong. it's not your reason for pushing me, but it explains some of the behaviour. you don't have to admit it - i'm still going to read you as such.

i acknowledge it looks bad as backpedaling. i acknowledge that some of my actions do look like i could have scum intentions. those reasons are not garbage. what is garbage is "why would town crumb JOKER like that" (gimme a sec and i'll find the post where you did it yourself) and "you've just been defending yourself and not scumhunting" (i'm going to defend myself if i'm being attacked, thanks, and the claim that i haven't been scumhunting is actually FALSE)

 

[Asdioh]

Oh good TB's actually here.

He has yet to answer the simple question: HOW does claiming MILLER dodge a NK?

Please answer this ASAP, and hopefully your answer will be what I'm thinking it is.

 

[Sokr]

Pick one.

I wanted you to take a stance on the matter, not tell me the options.

Pick one? What are you even saying? It would be so incredibly stupid to just "pick one" and close my mind of other possiblities. I have two, maybe three possibilites, right now each is as likely as the rest, so no, I'm not gonna pick one.

As for T-Block's unclaim: did I post that post about me thinking he was setting himself up with a backdoor with the joker crumbs and all that? Anyways, this just looks extremely scummy to me. T-Block, please give a more solid verification of why you did this.

Someone asked about me not really posting my thoughts on Rajam. This is because everyone else already said the relevant stuff and anything I said wouldn't spark conversation or provide insights and would only lead to people saying "oh, he's sheeping!"

T-Block's talk of surviving the NK sounds very survivalistic to me. Indy, huh?

 

[T-block]

He has yet to answer the simple question: HOW does claiming MILLER dodge a NK?

uh... because the answer is obvious? -_- miller naturally falls under more suspicion, meaning it's easier for scum to push a mislynch onto him. plus, informed millers tend to not be PRs from what i've seen. both of those help avoid the NK.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13601002&postcount=676 - kantrip crumbing in advance.

his reason? "I decided to crumb this time so that this doesn't look like back-dooring."

so i'd like to know why he thinks my decision to crumb was so scummy

 

[T-block]

Pick one? What are you even saying? It would be so incredibly stupid to just "pick one" and close my mind of other possiblities. I have two, maybe three possibilites, right now each is as likely as the rest, so no, I'm not gonna pick one.

As for T-Block's unclaim: did I post that post about me thinking he was setting himself up with a backdoor with the joker crumbs and all that? Anyways, this just looks extremely scummy to me. T-Block, please give a more solid verification of why you did this.

Someone asked about me not really posting my thoughts on Rajam. This is because everyone else already said the relevant stuff and anything I said wouldn't spark conversation or provide insights and would only lead to people saying "oh, he's sheeping!"

T-Block's talk of surviving the NK sounds very survivalistic to me. Indy, huh?

how about you read instead of asking a question just so you can be seen asking a question

 

[July]

Before we talk about whether or not RR's claim was more legit, we should wait until RR actually posts and gives thoughts; you guys are letting RR ride his miller claim and handling his battles for him while he does nothing.

@Asdioh: If T-Block is town he literally picked the path of most resistance to avoid getting nk'ed. He put himself immediately in the spotlight and immediately opened himself upon to skepticism and criticism which might not result in his nk but could absolutely result in his lynch. Furthermore, even if its unlikely, there was always the risk that there really was a miller and he would get counterclaimed, which brings about even more confusion, speculation, skepticism, and so on. Those are a lot of risks and that's a long route to take to avoid getting nk'ed when most people who don't want to get nk'ed just lurk a bit or act a little scummy.

tl;dr his claim made him less likely to be nk'ed, but only because he was more likely to be lynched toDay...so the gambit wasn't really helpful in achieving his actual goal, which shouldn't have been "don't get nk'ed" but don't die or get forced to claim in general

 

[July]

uh... because the answer is obvious? -_- miller naturally falls under more suspicion, meaning it's easier for scum to push a mislynch onto him. plus, informed millers tend to not be PRs from what i've seen. both of those help avoid the NK.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13601002&postcount=676 - kantrip crumbing in advance.

his reason? "I decided to crumb this time so that this doesn't look like back-dooring."

so i'd like to know why he thinks my decision to crumb was so scummy

What post does this link to? It won't let me see it.

 

[T-block]

Before we talk about whether or not RR's claim was more legit, we should wait until RR actually posts and gives thoughts; you guys are letting RR ride his miller claim and handling his battles for him while he does nothing.

@Asdioh: If T-Block is town he literally picked the path of most resistance to avoid getting nk'ed. He put himself immediately in the spotlight and immediately opened himself upon to skepticism and criticism which might not result in his nk but could absolutely result in his lynch. Furthermore, even if its unlikely, there was always the risk that there really was a miller and he would get counterclaimed, which brings about even more confusion, speculation, skepticism, and so on. Those are a lot of risks and that's a long route to take to avoid getting nk'ed when most people who don't want to get nk'ed just lurk a bit or act a little scummy.

tl;dr his claim made him less likely to be nk'ed, but only because he was more likely to be lynched toDay...so the gambit wasn't really helpful in achieving his actual goal, which shouldn't have been "don't get nk'ed" but don't die or get forced to claim in general

i wouldn't call it path of most resistance at all. if there hadn't been a CC, it would have worked quite nicely imo. the claim would have come, some discussion would have happened, then we would have moved on and i would be able to play a townie game without worrying about balancing acting scummy.

 

[T-block]

it's a DR post, july

You would lynch Red Ryu, then? If you're town, though, you should know that he's town and naturally want to lynch T-Block, should you not?

Your answer confuses me, though, because if you are scum you would not advocate a lynch on Red Ryu because it would condemn you as scum.

This can only mean one thing: You are actually scummates with T-Block. Since you know T-Block's scum flip would clear Red Ryu, this would in turn also clear you by default.

The reason you would advocate Red Ryu's lynch over T-block's is that you would be saving your scumbuddy, and you KNOW that Red Ryu would flip town, which would "clear" you.

This is why you were instantly suspicious of my role, because you knew what I claimed could not be true, as you are scum and Red Ryu is town.

Also, I never thought Red Ryu was your scumbuddy. I wanted reactions, and I actually crumbed it this time:

Good, now that that's out of the way I can ask Red Ryu what he thinks about my case on his scummate. Answer when you feel like it, no rush there. Maybe we can get a response from other players as well? But that's probably wishful thinking on my part. I would like to see a response from at least T-Block, Tery, John, and Red Ryu, though. That's it for now.

I was just using the Red Ryu scummate thing to get reads. I decided to crumb this time so that this doesn't look like back-dooring.



So basically guys, John and T-Block are the scumteam.

Vote: T-Block

 

[T-block]

he was town that game

 

[Kantrip]

It links to a Disco Room game I'm assuming, where I crumbed for a gambit in advance. I can't access it anymore either. I don't deny that I have done this though.

The thing is, you were crumbing for SOMEONE ELSE'S gambit. You literally saw me claim and then decided to crumb JOKER so that you could "help" what you thought was a gambit. Then you out the whole deal for what you thought it was BEFORE RAJAM EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO REACT. Why so committed to helping a "gambit" that you would crumb in order to help it out, but then you will totally jump right out of there with your crumb as a safety net as soon as you get flak for what you suggested.

IN ADDITION, "helping a gambit" does not excuse the fact that you advocated a poor choice. If you were "helping a gambit", you would pretend it is real and give a legitimate and honest answer in order to make others believe it is true. Saying that you thought it was a gambit DOES NOT defend from your advocating of HORRIBLE things. At all.