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Of course not, Kirby reks Sheik when crouching. Push down on the joystick, and the matchup instantly becomes 100:0 in Kirby's favor.I don't know ifare still considered even either
G. Stache
what is Luigi's 50/50 out of dthrow, and does it still work if your opponent bans Halberd, DIs away and buffers jump? won prepatch won prepatch this probably isn't too bad but I expect it may go to time rather frequently, Luigi can't catch a sonic with the lead won prepatch, I'd rather play Ness in this matchup now, it is that bad safe on shield aerials + Luigi has no answer to PKT, also comparable (admittedly weaker) grab game this matchup is probably also not too bad, although Diddy likes the shield changes and has less of a hard time killing shield changes this matchup should go to time unless the Luigi SDs or something I... don't know, actually. Wario should probably play keepaway and charge waft, a recovering Luigi = free waft. No kill confirm hurts in this matchup. Usmash and fireballs are fun, but they would be more fun if Luigi was able to actually force Wario to approach. safety on shields + mobility + projectile shutting down short hop game same (- mobility) Yoshi sucks but how do you kill him? disjoint + safety on shield + free edgeguards (also good grab game) this matchup seems very slow, disjoint + arrows (not hugely safe on shield though, maybe not that bad for L) I dunno won prepatch, added safety is nice. this is like "lucario beats sheik i swear" x100 except actually realistic given how Luigi has to fish for kills when his opponent is at high percents won prepatch this is a lower mid tier character and Luigi still doesn't win (disjoint + safety on shield + EDGEGUARDING), the only reason Luigi won pre patch was because he could kill stupid early off a grab.~
It's hard for people who've never played Street Fighter. It took me a while to be able to consistently do Shakunetsu Hadoken without falling off the stage. Of course this was all on the 3DS.
Alot of smash players never touched a SF game so it makes sense.
()()()I still think that at the top, Lucario may beat Sheik. Especially in these times where we see Sheik struggling to kill at the very top.Her even MUs if I remember correctly are:
I don't know if
Luigi, Mario and Doc are likely even (Mario was probably disadvantageous last patch but not anymore).Pazx said:-2:
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The theory is certainly there, but this might actually have more to do with ZeRo than it does with Sheik. Lucario (like Ness) is a character that ZeRo seems to have some pretty random struggles against. Also, remember the time Kamicario beat him so (seemingly) badly in a friendly that he refused to let anyone upload the games to youtube? That was fun.
This is not how Diddys banana game works. Why should it matter that fireballs beat bananas? Diddy won't just mindlessly throw it into the fireball. You rarely just throw banana in neutral on the off chance from that distance.
Everyone can read a badly done sideB. I actually think Diddy Kongs recovery is not really gimpable on most stages. Diddy Kong can always just recover to the other ledge if you're waiting for him.
The Patch hurt Diddy a lot more because a lot aerials on shield are now banane safe.
Right now I'd say Diddy : Yoshi is +2. The actual ratio might be +1 but Yoshis Metagame is not on that level.
And then there are those of us who have played Street Fighter and other fighting games and still have trouble doing the inputs in Smash. It's a confusing muscle memory thing. The inputs are close, but the subtle differences and the way they get in the way of how I'm used to moving in Smash make it annoying. It's just one of those things people need to practice. It really only matters if you play Ryu, anyway.
I'd argue against that since ease of use is very subjective. Exemple: I cannot understand how to use Villager at all, Greninja is fairly straightforward, and Fox is disgustingly easy to use. That's all on me. Now, what about the millions of other players? At the same time, say Captain Falcon is fairly simple and can dominate pools to about winners round 3, but after that, everything falls apart. The level of aggression and pressure you need to exert with a hyper-aggressive play style and the risks you need to take and know when to take like Fatality does is not a simple feat. It's like learning to control a drag racer on a circuit and not a straight line. Similarly, learning to play a walking arsenal like Link, Toon Link, Villager, and Mega Man is much more difficult than cheesing with lag and lesser skilled players. At the same time, it's all up to the player e.g. for some, hyper-aggression is pure instinct and natural reflexes, but for others, it's a learned play style.
Nah this patch is amazing for Diddy, you should hear Zero go on about how much he likes playing Diddy now because all of his aggressive options are far safer so the character's mixup potential is a lot better.
No experience/unsure (imo all varying degrees of advantage, apparently we shut down Peach?):
Although I agree that Olimar has trouble with fast characters, I think him being invalidated by them is a bit of an overstatement. Even though they can rush in and disregard his camping, many of them are fastfallers and are susceptible to Dthrow combos, as well as things like Dthrow -> Fsmash that work specifically for fastfallers. In my opinion, Mario is one of the hardest MUs for Oli because of his frame data, cape, and his weight, fall speed, and Nair that make him less susceptible to Dthrow followups, his reliance on constantly getting in means that he's vulnerable to getting pivot grabbed. Shiek players who play campy with needles are the hardest MU; I feel that more aggressive Shiek players are about the same level of difficulty as Fox/Falcon due to fastfaller combos.
makes sense Villager has a higher than average skill floor what with all the bizzare and unique moves in her arsenal
How is Olimar busted in your opinion?
You act like suddenly realize boss is a skilled player but he's been winning tourneys for months. I can't believe some of you guys cried for nerfs just because a luigi main used their strengths to their advantage. Luigi dropped many places down the tier list because he's much more limited.
The 50/50 was d throw into down b. It's not a true combo anymore, but can still catch someone off guard if they weren't expecting it. I have yet to use it out of training (where I've been spending my time getting Luigi practice in.). If imagine it would still be possible to catch the DI since cyclone makes you move faster in air. By buffering jump I'm guessing you mean double jump (maybe)? If that's so, then yes. And banning halberd is probably good for Luigi most of the time anyways lol. It works on any stage, as it had last patch. Just less reliable.
I've seen some cool dthrow soft nair setups but they only work if you're right at the edge of the stage and you're at a very precise percentage (I have about as much success with Diddy's uthrow uair).
It's quite likely that Luigi does poorly against almost every top or high tier character. He naturally does well against Fox although even pre-patch there was a lot more development to be done on the Fox side of that matchup, with the changes to shields and the nerfs to Luigi it's pretty clear that if the Fox focuses hard on playing safe (what does Luigi do about spaced bair on shield?) and not taking risks then Luigi can't do a lot in this matchup. Mobility is the most important factor in this game and in a matchup where it's so mismatched Fox can really abuse it. It's still a difficult and perhaps frustrating matchup for Fox because if he makes one mistake he can take 40% but post patch he doesn't die for leaving 3 small openings, he has to make a significant enough mistake to get shoryuken'd or edgeguarded. Seems evenish, although if top players continue developing Fox and not so much Luigi then I can see this matchup being pretty rough in a years time.
Luigi vs Falcon might still be good for Luigi (I haven't played this matchup post-patch myself), however Falcon can utilise the same "safe" gameplan as Fox (albeit with a bit less mobility and significantly more safety on shields) to make it hard. Luigi misses the kill confirm in this matchup more than against Fox. He's still capable of edgeguarding, though, and to play this matchup properly that's how he should be looking to get most of his kills.
Luigi did well against Mario and Pika pre-patch. I'm not sure about Pikachu now, except to say that the shield changes help him a lot which is bad for Luigi, and he can probably time Luigi out on a few stages. Mario is probably evenish simply because Luigi outdamages him (both low % combo game and in general). Mario has better mobility, better smashes and this is one of the few matchups where Mario's kit is decent at edgeguarding, but none of these qualities are really abusable, and to convincingly win the Luigi matchup you need to be able to abuse his weaknesses.
Also this was never really proven, but I think pre-patch Luigi beat Ryu. He doesn't anymore.
If you look at the other characters in the top 25, you'd struggle to find matchups Luigi wins.
I haven't even thought about these guys, but I'd imagine at least some of these matchups are bad for Luigi:
Wow, that is a lot of not-good matchups. Yes, if Luigi gets in he can blow all of them up for an impressive amount of damage, but that's not enough to turn these matchups into his favour. Against a lot of these characters he shouldn't be getting in at all. Pre-patch Luigi had a lot of exploitable weaknesses, and his huge reward was the only thing carrying him through a lot of these matchups.
MK mains saying they lose to Sheik isn't special, everybody (ZSS?) loses to Sheik when Sheik is played perfectly. At the current level of our top players MK goes pretty even with Sheik, and that is far more valuable to discuss than optimal Sheik's perfect matchup spread.
Also while I'm here have some matchup spreads for the characters I dual main. This is partially a response to the trend of people putting Ness outside the top ten. Popular opinion on a character's viability is heavily swayed by recent results and all it takes is FOW or Shaky to show up to a big tournament for people to argue he's top 5 again. The same thing goes for most characters, currently Fox is being underrated a little (people putting him between 7th-9th) because no Fox mains have done anything recently. If Komokiri or ESAM show up to Genesis 3 in a big way the question will once again be "Is Sonic/Pika top 3?" (the answers are "maybe" and "no" respectively). I think both of these matchup spreads are spreads belonging to top tiers.
no experience/unsure (first 3 are close to even, rest are Ness's favour):
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Also worth noting that I'm the outlier for thinking ZSS is even, almost every other Ness+ZSS thinks it's Ness's favour and if that's the case it's pretty significant.
No experience/unsure (imo all varying degrees of advantage, apparently we shut down Peach?):
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Not this again. Look, it's time for the salt to run dry. You need to settle down, and stop trying to make points when they all lead to 'Luigi shoulda never got nerfed'. Look, if it means so much to you, use Mario with the green color palette, squint a bit, and pretend you're using Luigi. Because that'd be more productive than what you're doing right now.
Pre patch luigi had multiple setups he could use. He could setup fireball locks, nair, bair, and dair for KOs. According to the Sm4sh community, it's wrong for a character to be versatile? Someone please educate me why it's wrong for Pre patch luigi to have many combos from his down throw despite his obvious weaknesses to offset his combos but it's ok for the mario/falcon / diddy/ ness/ game and watch to spam grab followups until it stops working? Even every fox main always tries to grab you at low percent for that down throw <fair.
Personally, it's just me not syncing with characters like Villager, Link, Toon Link, Jigglypuff, and hell, even Diddy. I get what they're doing, but I don't understand what the hell I'm supposed to do to play them effectively. Always been the hit stuff and ask questions later kind of player. Be it straightup rushdown, more boxing orientated, or hit and run, that works for me, but the whole projectile wall, trapping, long-term strategy, and Jigglypuff stuff don't click with me.
As wedl said, we are not doubting anything Boss is capable or incapable of, but we are pointing out how over-tuned (and in some cases, under-tuned) options overshadow the rest of a character's kit. This happened to Diddy, happened to Luigi, and in between games, happened to Fox, Falco, and Meta Knight - maybe even more I'm missing. The fact people suddenly acknowledge that a character has other moves than whatever over-tuned options they have is kind of sad because of how over-tuned they were. Why use anything else, but Diddy's Uair that kills, combos, and acts as a coverage option? Why learn different setups when that one setup is so damn good? Why even attempt to exert more energy than needed? When options are balanced around each other than being all-purpose doombringers, it forces players to use other, equally good options instead of using way too good options because they're just that good. Seeing characters be re-tuned and seeing more of their options being used is not just great for the audience, but for other players too who were tired of dealing with broken, borderline broken, or way too good options.
Seriously. Stop. You've complained about this multiple times already.
I feel like that goes for Mario and ZSS too (re: landing). Thing is it doesn't happen that way (never so perfectly) at which point they're both looking for their setups. Sheik needs to grab Lucario for her 50/50, and Lucario wants Sheik to come in and run into a big ass aura sphere.
Except Luigi's grab follow-ups lasted a lifetime.
Because he also had a cast-wise kill confirm from a grab (which could be confirmed into with fireball) with no way to escape unless the Luigi messes up.
You mention luigi's combo game in a vacuum. You didn't mention how ZSS and Mario dont have his flaws such as his terrible airspeed, lowest traction, easily gimpable recovery. I could go on and on how hard ganon hits but that doesn't make him a good character does it? I'm not saying luigi's combos were very hard but then again most combos in sm4sh aren't that complex either. I don't think down throw < fair is hard as fox or down throw < up air as mario is hard. You think all luigi needed to do was to run up and grab the opponent without reads? You know, run straight at someone, expect them to just stay still at let luigi grab them? There's no difference between reading with a smash attack or a grab. It's hard getting grabs with Luigi considering his flaws. I'm trying to to point out the hypocrisy of complaining about Luigi's easybake combos but many characters also rely on easybake combos but don't have luigi's weaknesses.
Eh, I don't know.... The Sheik MU is pretty debatable.Her even MUs if I remember correctly are:
I don't know if
